wayne sheldon

Many years ago, a friend was a well respected machinist and horseless carriage restorer as well as member of my HCCA Regional Group. One of our tours covered a bunch of scenic miles of California foothills, and ended up at his home and shop for a mid afternoon barbecue. I forget which model Oldsmobile that it was, but one of the cars he was working on for a customer was the size down from the Limited. It was still huge! That "smaller" model Oldsmobile also had the double level running board, and was quite impressive.

Too many unknowns here. "Value" has many definitions. The value to researching history might maybe be immense! While the number of dollars someone might be willing to pay for such an item might be enough for a small soda? There were more than one companies in the automotive industry around a hundred years ago using the name "Gray". The Gray Automobile that Jim Gray mentions is quite rare, and may actually be the best known "Gray" company (fifty years ago, I actually knew someone that owned one of those "Gray" automobiles!). However, there was an engine manufacturer (also mentioned by Jim Gray), and if I recall correctly, an unrelated "Gray" automobile was manufactured in Canada for a short while. No telling how many dealerships or distributors of cars or related products might have been. You referred to it as a "log book"? Hand written logs or published accounts? Any real useful information? Any photographs? If the book was a published handout from a specific automobile show it might be valuable? Other things? It might be best donated to the AACA research library where the information it contains could be cataloged and added to the information available to researchers.

Leif, Both ozone and UV have significant deleterious effects on tires of any age. Which one is more serious depends on many factors, mostly the amount of exposure in a given location. UV levels are mostly from direct sunlight, and can be reduced by any source of shadows, or the farther North or South one is from the equator. Ozone can creep into dark corners and attack even well covered items. For those that aren't aware of it, ozone can be created by many types of chemical or electrical activity, and is a major component in smog. Of the two, UV is the better known bogyman to most people, hence why I mentioned it as being people's reason for covering tires. The US used to demand manufacturing standards for tire composition to withstand significant amounts of both issues. However, in recent decades those standards have been relaxed or not enforced to such a degree that modern tires are now much more susceptible to decay from both causes. Low quality modern tires often can become unsafe in as little as five to seven years, whereas, tires manufactured thirty years ago (in spite of significant aging already!) might actually be safe for another thirty years (A factor not adequately provable?).

In sunny parts of the country, some people put covers over tires on cars parked outside to keep the UV from prematurely rotting the tires. It does help quite a bit IF the covers aren't too thin or near clear.

The wheel looks very nice! Some day, I hope to see better pictures of the rest of the car?

My apologies up front. A minor point of linguistics? On most modern cars, the "wheel" and the "rim" may be one and the same thing. However, on many automobiles, especially antique automobiles? The "rim" is a part of the whole wheel. The "wooden spokes" are also a part of the whole wheel. However, the "rim" and the "wooden spokes" are NOT one or the same. All wheels, regardless of age, have several parts. Some specific parts are used on some wheels but not on others. The "rim" generally speaking is the part that the tire is somehow held onto. Most modern "rims" have some sort of "center" attached to them. That "center" provides the means to bolt the "rim" onto the "hub". This particular type of antique automobile wheel is a "demountable rim" "wooden spoke" wheel. In addition to the spokes and hub, lugs, or clamps, lug bolts and nuts, the "rim" is just another part of the complete wheel. One other important part of the complete wheel of this type is the "felly" (or "felloe", or about three other spellings?). In this wheels case, it is a "steel felloe", the metal ring between the wooden spokes and the bolted on "rim". On many earlier wheels, the "fellies" are also made of wood. And some earlier wheels are "non-demountable rim" wheels. For these the "rim" is attached directly onto the felly and does not come off for ease of tire repairs. All that is the short version. Sorry, sometimes, I just have to let that inner language (bad word deleted?) out. (I initially called myself a bad name. Somehow, that word went away?) Again, my apologies, and my thanks to the moderators.

This is all part of what makes automobile history so very interesting! And part of what makes history in general so very important. If people do not learn from past mistakes, they individually or collectively will wind up back in a bad place that people before them had already worked their way out of. When I first heard that GM was dropping the Oldsmobile line? I figured that GM and all the big three were headed downhill from then onward. Killing off Oldsmobile, the longest running American automobile marque, clearly meant that they did not appreciate their history, and in turn their legacy, and the millions of customers that had contributed to their greatness. One does that, and it is downhill from then on. I don't recall the source of this quote. But it is one I have quoted hundreds of times through the years; "A fool repeats his mistakes, a smart man learns from his mistakes, a wise man learns from other people's mistakes."

Lighting in the pictures is awful! Can't see enough details. I suspect it may be earlier than 1928 even. Being a truck it may have features of earlier model cars, allowing for the radiator and shell style, as well as the drum headlamps. Long running boards were not typical on most trucks that era. Although Chevrolet in 1929 on a six cylinder truck with the "express" pickup bed did have long running boards. This truck might be as late as 1928, or possibly as early as 1925?

Thank you! And it looks like you got a good hint at what the car is.

More specifically, it is most likely a Canadian built late 1912 Ford model T touring car. The early 1912s (both US and Canadian built) had a "step sided" body, wherein the seats extended out farther than the body's base. About January to February 1912, the body was simplified to this style which is often referred (technically incorrectly) to as the "slab-side" body. Earlier "slab-side" bodies however had an outside door handle on the rear doors. About June or July of 1912, the outside door handle was replaced by a cheaper inside lever to open the rear doors (this was just another step in Ford's continuing push to make model Ts more affordable). United States built model Ts were basically ALL left-hand side driven for use in the US where cars were usually driven on the right side of the road. Most US model Ts in those years had no door next to the driver, which was a common practice at that time (a lot of reasons for that). Canadian built model Ts were built either right side driven or left side driven as Canadian provinces mostly drove on the right side of the road (with one province being driven on the left side of the road in those days), while most of the English colonies they were exported to diving on the left side of the road. Canadian production had front doors on both sides of the body so that the same body could be placed on either right hand or left hand driven chassis. Most "Colonial" exports were Canadian built cars because the British Empire's import policies favored Canadian imports (colonial production) over US produced automobiles and other goods, and taxed them at a much better rate. What a great photo! A neat looking car and a fine looking family.

Seriously, Ed Davidson, please do respond. We love to see old photos of automobiles, and even their families. And we also like to see newer photos of older cars. Many of us love the challenge of identifying cars in photographs, hence several postings joking about the lack of the photo. We rush in to the challenge, and are disappointed that there is no photo to identify. And if you are having difficulty in posting the photo? Maybe some of us here can help?

A "Ghost"? Rolls Royce? What year?

I believe (if I recall correctly?) that 1911 was the first year for Metz to have a four cylinder engine. The model 22 ran from 1911 through 1915 with both the model 22 and the model 25 four cylinder cars being built during 1915. The Metz six cylinder model also began late in 1915. A 1910 should be the two cylinder car. Been a long time since I looked at it, but the AACA magazine had a great multipart article on the Metz automobiles back around 1970 (a couple years before or after). As I recall, there was a picture in one of them of the two cylinder engine. Copies show up on eBay from time to time. O the AACA Research Library should be able to provide copies of the article. Actual schematics of the engine may or may not be available.

The Buick oval window brougham. One of my all time favorite nickel era cars! Fifty years ago, I knew of three or four of them near where I grew up. i don't think I have seen one in person for over thirty years now, and only a few in modern photographs. This one is sad to look at. Much worse condition than the ones I knew of years ago. I hope someone will buy it and restore it well. But it cannot be me anymore, I have better projects I don't have enough time for. (And the price? No.)

Somebody got the low buck HCCA buy of the month! Yes, the rear fenders are the 1915/'16 style. But the car appears to have the very rare one year only 1913 rear turtle deck (unless it is a well made fake?). It needs a lot of restoration to be a really nice car. But maybe with a bit of effort, and a little time, a thousand or two dollars, it could be a very usable brass era T.

Wish I had the money. One couldn't do much better than that for a cheap HCCA buy-in. The headlamps are era after-market electric lamps replacing the original acetylene gas headlamps. Most of the upholstery looks to be original, but decent enough to still have a few good years of use left in them (driver's bottom cushion has likely been redone?). Wheels are wrong color, otherwise the car looks mostly pretty right. Tires are typical correct size model T replacements, model Ts drive just fine on them! One never knows what sort of gremlins will be found in cars that have sat for a few decades? But model Ts tend to be very forgiving. The odds are good that it could be running in a weekend, and ready to tour in a month.

Thank you! I thought that was where it was, just wasn't certain.

How "good" is your engine? Simply for comparison, years ago, I restored a model T Ford with a factory built original after-market body, from a total wreck of the original car. For resurrecting the chassis and body, I used a temporary tired old model T engine I had on hand. When I got the car together enough, I got it licensed and insured, driving for about a year while rebuilding the correct model T engine for it. It actually ran nice, and I drove it quite a bit for that year. However, the blow-by was so bad, that I lost two oil filler caps because they literally blew out of the oil filler itself. They fit really tight, and I would have bet they couldn't blow out, in part because the engine was so well vented. I figured it out. I could drive 42 mph all day long, and not lose the cap. Push it up to 44 mph and the cap would blow out within a mile or so! The blow-by went up exponentially with how hard I pushed the engine, and 43 mph was the magic figure. I went out on a quiet but fast road, with the hood removed, and pushed the car up to near 50 mph. Picking a safe spot, I slammed on the brakes and moved quickly to where I could see the oil filler spout, and for about two more seconds saw the blue smoke blowing up and out of the crankcase! When I finished the correct year engine for the car, with its original era overdrive transmission, that car would do 60 mph all day long with no troubles. The tired old engine just couldn't handle being pushed fast.

Crankcases of that era need to be well ventilated. Sometimes people use caps or filters thinking they need to for some reason, and the cylinder blow-by pressurizes the crankcase enough that the oil is forced back and out instead of dripping back into the crankcase. This used to be a big problem with model A Fords, which had a similar no seal on the rear main bearing.

The le Zebre next to the Packard makes me think of the miniature Reo that the Ringling Brothers/Barnum and Bailey Circus had back in those years. (I believe that it still exists?)

I love the silent movie era! But yes, they did wreck a lot of great cars in them, especially in the comedies. In 1926, that Cole would have only been a few years old, but cars aged faster in those days due to rapidly changing technologies and harsh conditions. Filmmakers could often get an abused nice car only a couple years old to destroy in a movie. Not all that different than from some of the you-tube stuff today?

Too new for me, but a very desirable car! Frankly, I am surprised the price is that low. It should sell quickly if the sale is legitimate.

Marque club members are usually the best people to buy a collector car from. They are usually more familiar with the nuances of the make, and what makes one worth more than others (and frankly, ninety percent of all collector cars are NOT the top ten percent of cars!). Marque club members usually are willing to share their knowledge with interested people. Anyone with a collector car that has a good marque club should consider joining that club. Of course, anything with people involved? There will be exceptions, so always follow good judgement.

If anybody wants to know, the hubcap near the ten o'clock position of the large V8 Ford hubcap, the one with the "J" on it, I believe is an early Jewett hubcap. Jewett was a lower priced model introduced by Paige Detroit about 1922. The later Jewetts had a slightly larger hubcap (similar design to the Studebaker hubcaps for several years in the 1920s), but with the same "J" on their face.

I think it is a Cole, early to mid 1920s.