wayne sheldon

Just a side-note. Earlier, I posted this as part of a response to a photo posted on another antique automobile website. I figured I should put this part of it here also. Just for whomever's interest. A side note about antique cars and seat covers. My 1927 Paige sedan (been in my family now for 47 years) has seat covers on both front and back bottom cushions. Years ago, I found an original 1928 issue dealer's parts book showing all the parts for my model Paige. The seat covers are listed in there as a factory option. Sadly, the original interior is in very poor condition, and must be replaced. But I always thought it was odd. Paige advertised as "The Most Beautiful Car in America", and did strive to live up to that slogan. The interior was originally beautiful, plush, mohair. The seat covers were ugly blue striped white heavy cloth like pillows and mattresses used to be covered in. It was kind of sad that those beautiful seats were covered up, from day one, and never enjoyed. I have begun working on the car a bit, and hope to get going on replacing the interior. I have toyed with the idea of replacing the seat covers even, if I get that far. But I probably won't. However, as long as I am around and have the car, the remains of the original covers will be kept to show what was there originally. I also wonder. Did many other (that early, much later was common) manufacturers sell cars new with seat covers? For what it is worth. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

Quick and dirty. The '19 to '23 coupes have suicide doors, hinged at the rear. They also have a rear trunk that attaches behind the "phone booth". The '24 and '25 coupes have doors hinged at the front, not suicide doors. The trunk is part of the passenger compartment of the body. Not an added on piece. In model Ts, the coupe had more changes (both major and minor) than I think any other body style all the way from 1915 clear to the end in 1927. My April 1924 coupe appears to be the third variation for coupes in 1924 model year alone. At least one more followed before the changes made for the '25 model. Seat risers, window riser mechanisms, and the required wood structure changes to accommodate the differing mechanisms. The windshield frame, the floorboard riser, all changed several times in two years time. A big one is that the '24 has heavy wood-framed doors. The '25 mostly used lighter all steel doors. The 1919 through most of 1923 Coupes are about as bad with frustrating changes to the body. But they are even nicer in the "cool car" department. I like the earlier ones better, but I like my '24 a lot! Coupes are well worth the issues of multiple changes. Some of them may be annoying while you try to figure it out, but then you discover that there really are several right answers. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

For what it is worth, about forty years ago, I had a similar REO Master Flying Cloud Semi-Sport Coupe. Mine was in considerably better condition than that. Drove and handled beautifully. It needed a fair amount of restoration (a lot less than this one) and I was deciding it was a bit too new for my tastes. I was getting some cars from earlier in the '20s and working my way toward horseless carriages. Still, I remember my REO fondly. I drove it to high school, and club tours for a few years. I could probably get talked into buying one like this if it were two thousand miles closer and about five thousand dollars cheaper (or a lot better condition). Really a good car. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

I must say, the response from whtbaron is one of the things I was looking for. I do want people that want to build these "in between" cars to have a place to feel at home. If that is to be a corner of the AACA, so be it. I don't know if whtbaron can answer for many of the regulars on the Speedster section or not. I do wonder if the many (any or most?) of those there would be offended by some comments I could be tempted to make? (It is nearly impossible to offend me). I really don't want to rain on anybodies parade there, but I do think people should understand the difference between historically restored or preserved cars and other things whether they are hotrods or what. Other responses/comments. In a sense, speedsters are definitely the forerunners of hotrods. However, there are a few key differences. The word "speedster" was one of the commonly used words for such cars way back in the day. They were also known as "bugs", "cut-downs", simply "race (or racing) cars" and at least a dozen less common names. The word "speedster" is the most commonly recognized and fitting term today. The term "hotrod" was coined (according to legend) about 1947 or '48. The big difference between them, however, is that with a speedster, you take a regular car. The first thing you do is throw away the body! You use the basic chassis with or without modifications to help performance. You buy or build a body that resembles a race car of some type. It is fast! It handles well! It (hopefully) looks good! With a hotrod, you take the same car, keep the body, throw away the chassis, and replace it with parts that are ten to fifty or more years newer. During the "speedster era", you could not replace anything with something much newer. Speedsters were usually built from cars only a few years old, although sometimes they could be about ten years old. Any more than that was rare. Many speedsters were even built upon new chassis. It is one of those things that has been discussed (argued) for a long time. Many people with a lot of interest in the history of speedsters believe that the speedster era ended either with the introduction of the new model A Ford for 1928 or the crash of '29. In truth, it has never ended, just dwindled down a lot. The first speedsters were built shortly after 1900, almost as soon as there were cars available complete enough to cut down. The first "model T" speedsters were built in 1908 by Ford's design and development departments to road test the experimental T chassis. In 1909, Ford built two special cars in the model T plant alongside the rest of the cars. These two cars were run in the race from New York to Seattle in 1909. In 1910, several dealers across the country built cars for local exhibitions. By 1911, everybody was getting into the act and model T speedsters have been built in every calender year since and probably on for many more years to come. Certainly, model T speedsters are one of the longest running automotive related hobbies. As to the H.A.M.B. I previously stated that many hotrodders do understand the difference between antiques and hotrods. There are several long-running threads on the H.A.M.B. that are all about racing cars of various types and the history surrounding them. I am quite impressed by their knowledge and passion for the subject of early racing. I have a couple of the threads bookmarked and look in on them occasionally. For me, I am an antique automobile guy and lean toward the horseless carriage era. I also like speedsters. But I like them to be as era correct as most antique automobiles that are still driven.

I type slow. My question (maybe poorly put), is more about education and understanding the difference. I hesitate to tell someone proud of his project that it is not an antique, because I don't want to offend him. Yet I am troubled by an apparent lack of understanding that there is a difference. It is not a question of one is right and the other is wrong. Hotrodding is an art form. I appreciate that and hope others do also. Building a model T speedster with a few common '20s parts and a lot of reproduction items is continuing a tradition that has continued (uninterrupted even by WWII) for more than a hundred years. Making it "era correct" requires understanding and a bit more effort. The line is not difficult to draw. The line is impossible to draw. There is a wide range of right in this. Whether you want your car to be era correct or not, is up to you. State requirements and "trashing the Mona Lisa" I would want mostly left out here. Thank you again. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

Me, politely saying me again! A lot of interesting responses in only ten hours. Mostly I totally agree with, and mostly I do already. Thank you. I think what got to me the most last night was the apparent lack of understanding that a "modern build" using modern major components is not something that is an antique. I see it as an education problem. Or better, a lack of education problem. I was on a tour with a "Nickel Age" club several years ago. The club has high standards and only accepts cars from 1913 into early 1928, and kept mostly era correct with only correct drive-train and major components. There were 27 beautiful cars on this tour. One of the cars ahead of us pulled over for a minor adjustment, so I pulled over to see if he needed any help. The resident of the home we had stopped near came walking over and asked about the wonderful cars he had been watching go by. We explained that they were all built between 1913 and 1928 and restored/maintained with original engines and wheels (mostly wood wheels). He seemed quite interested, so the other tourist and I stood there and talked with him for about another fifteen minutes. Suddenly, he says that he has just completed restoring his car and wants to join our club and go on our tours. He thinks it sounds like fun! We are eager to bring in another one and ask what it is he has? A 1940 Ford convertible with complete Corvette running gear. We were both still polite. We praised him on what a wonderful car it was. We told him there were many great clubs that have wonderful activities that would be perfect for his car. But he likes our cars and wants to join our club. We still are nice, try to explain that 1940 was not built between 1913 and 1928 (a requirement), and a Corvette running gear is NOT the original engine. He cannot understand the difference. Not understanding a simple "mission statement" is an educational issue. 1940 is not between 1913 and 1928. We join clubs to be "included" with people of similar interests. And we often join them because "I want to see your car that I like" more than because I want you to see mine. This is one of the biggest reasons to go on club tours. This becomes more true the earlier you go in automobiles. Model Ts do not tour well with cars of the '50s. Other horseless carriages more so. Preserving history so that others in the future may see what it was like way back when is a big part of the antique automobile hobby. Putting a modern drive-train under a modified-beyond-recognition body is not preserving history. I have always had friends with hotrods. I do appreciate them. Most hotrodders are great people. Many of them do understand the difference between hotrods and antiques. Many hotrodders also restore cars. Often they do some of the best restorations because they do understand the difference. Also certainly, any car that is too far gone as a candidate for restoration is better hotrodded than scrapped. Making something beautiful from a junk pile is an art form. And of course, one can choose to hotrod anything he can afford to do. I would consider participating in the "Speedsters" topic under the AACA forum. But I don't want to offend those that want non-antiques too much. Again, it becomes a problem of education. Those that want "era correct" speedsters have had a difficult time for over forty years. Outcasts from the bulk of "true antique automobilsts", turned off by most "speedster" events, they seem to not fit in anywhere. Several attempts to create a speedster club have failed because a consensus could not be reached on what should be acceptable. I am not a purist. I consider it an unreasonable goal. There is too much that cannot be reasonably duplicated. Tires we can buy today are wonderful! But not quite right. Paint and upholstery materials are not the same as they were 90 years ago. Often, parts from some other car or model must be modified to work. But an antique should, I think, be made as representative of how they were "back in their day" as is reasonable. If you are trying to preserve history. I often say "I want my cars to look they were pulled right out of a vintage photograph". And as far as posting photos goes, I have. However I am not too good at dealing with things computer. My computer was just upgraded (an unwanted necessity), so I have to figure out how to use the new photo program I have. May take awhile. Thank you all. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

I usually, really do try to be polite. I do appreciate other peoples opinions and interests and rights. However, I just posted on a thread about a proposed cable TV program that I would be concerned about what their intent is with historic automobiles. I tried to be polite. I think I was polite, there. Then, as I wandered down through other forum topic areas, I looked in where I sometimes dread to tread. Speedsters (I hesitated to say where, but figured it was important to my point and question). I do not usually look there too closely? I don't like a lot of what I see in there. However, I have had a few speedsters. I am restoring my sixth model T speedster and truly believe that they ARE as much a part of our automobile history as any Packard or Pierce Arrow is. But most of the discussions in there are about cars that are not any sort of restoration or recreation of anything that has anything to do with Antique Automobiles (other than wasting good original parts). I was a bit surprised by the amount of "gushing praise" being heaped upon some of these projects. They may look the part from a distance, but they are not Antique Automobiles once they have been butchered up in modern ways. The fact is, many of them may not even be legal to drive in most states. Once a car ceases to be something it was way back when, legally, it must conform to legally required safety and smog standards in force at the time it is built. And the time it is built is now 2014. Now, I would like to think this is still a free country (although I have very serious doubts that do not belong in a major discussion here and now). There certainly should be a place for this sort of thing just as there should be a place for fiberglass bucket Ts. However, should that place be the Antique Automobile Club of America? Or in any historic vehicle association? I have always restored my speedsters as close to "era correct" as I reasonably could. The two I have now are as "era correct" as most antique cars that attend major early car tours. The hobbies of hotrods and antique automobiles do have a lot in common. But there are also some very important differences. I did not say any of this there. I do try to be respectful and polite. Should I say something there? Should I have not posted this here at all? Should I just shut up and go away? If I have done wrong? Tell me. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

Like one previous posting commented. I would want to know what you have in mind. Having been in this hobby for over 45 years, I know that MOST people have NO idea what an antique automobile is or what it means. I always try to be polite. But a hotrod and an antique are NOT the same thing. Antique and historic vehicles deserve respect in a different way than cars that are modified in ways not correct to their era. I worked in cable TV for many years and have seen how "restoration" shows and things like "Pawn Stars" treat and/or misunderstand historic vehicles. (By the way, Pawn Stars is better than most, but still nearly clueless) I wouldn't let anybody touch any of my unfinished project cars without an ironclad guarantee that it would be treated correctly. Until I die. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

First, let me say that this project of yours is a bit out of my era of choice. But it is interesting. And, among other things, I am interested in speedsters and race cars from the beginning through the 1920s. Many times, I have argued that "speedsters are as much a part of our automotive history and heritage as any Packard or Pierce Arrow". Tracking the "history" of most individual original speedsters is nearly impossible. They were not considered important enough through the '30s till the mid'60s and most of their individual histories were lost. Racing cars are a little different. There is a better chance that some of their history may have been recorded, maybe even in the local newspapers. So good luck! I also agree with your assessment that finding its history is important for the car. I am in the same position with one of my projects. I would dearly love to find any original photo of my car, even a blurry newspaper shot. It could help for me to restore the car more correctly. Yes, it would also make the car more valuable if I were to sell it either as-is or restored. On this, I applaud your efforts. Whether you can find its full history or not, I hope you restore it well. Make it as right as you can. Cars like it also need to be restored, preserved, seen, shown, and driven. Again, make it as right as you can. I would suggest, however. Refrain from the LSR designation. The LSR is a specific "speed record", the "land" speed record. I would say to call it the "speed record" car all you like. There are hundreds of different speed records. Many dozens of weight classes, size classes, horse power classes, as well as production classes, modified classes, unlimited classes, number of cylinder classes and even fuel classes. There really is only ONE LSR, the fastest thing on land. Your car was probably never a contender for that. Welded spark plugs aside, no flathead can breath well enough to turn fast enough to produce enough horsepower to gear up enough speed for the LSR after about 1925. At least not without blowing the head off in a hundred pieces. By the late '20s, the speed was just getting too high. Air is a funny thing. The faster you go, or the engine turns, the harder air gets. And it gets harder exponentially. I used to work with the figures in commercial antenna systems (wind-loading). Basically, double the speed, four times the load (or resistance). Between 25 mph and 50 mph is a good jump in resistance. Then 100 mph. Then 200 mph. At 200 mph, you have over 60 times the air/wind resistance of 25 mph. It simply takes too much horsepower to go any faster. An engine of that design simply cannot do it. Regardless, your car looks very interesting, and appears to have some good history behind it. Good luck on your quest! I really hope to see it fully restored one day. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

Kelly K, It sounds to me as though you have the right idea and attitude! It also sounds as though the car has the right new home. I have restored about ten cars in my 45 years in the hobby. None of them even remotely was usable in the condition I got them. I often use the word resurrection instead of restoration in reference to most of the cars I have "restored". I have argued for many years that if an antique automobile is in even decent condition, it should be preserved, not restored. There absolutely is a point where cars should be restored. They cannot be really experienced or seen otherwise. I have been pleased the past decade or so, to see more cars preserved. I even know of a few people preserving cars that I would have said should be restored. That also pleases me. I like to see other people do better than I would if I were in their shoes. My ego does not bruise that easily. I am really impressed by your 1914 Studebaker speedster. I totally agree (from the photos) that it is probably from before 1920. If it were mine (no chance for that, my family pretty much destroyed me financially), I would definitely clean it up, make it safe enough to drive, and keep it as close to original as is reasonable to do. Another suggestion. Join the Antique Studebaker Club. They are for pre-WWII Studebakers and are very strong on the pre-'20 Studebaker stuff. I belonged to it for years while I had a 1915/16 ED6 touring car. For the several years I got their magazine, they published several great photos of early Studebaker speedsters as well as EMF and Flanders racing cars. Since I was forced to sell my car, my magazines got buried where I may find some of them some day. Through the club you may be able to find copies of some of those pictures which could be wonderful for research and display purposes. You may also want to contact and keep in touch with me personally in case I find some good stuff for you amongst the hundreds of speedster photos I have and can find. Also, I sold my ED6 touring to a long-time good close friend who has acquired a bit more in early Studebakers since and is connected to some of the early Studebaker community out here. He is a great person who frankly has taken much better care of the car than I could have. That makes the hurt of having sold it a little easier to take. Again, CONGRATULATIONS! You may have one of the best of the small number of truly original preserved early (pre1920) speedsters in the USA, maybe the world. Anybody with more money than brains can come up with a old industrial engine and some chassis parts, craft a body that doesn't look right, use the wrong kind of wheels and call it any year they feel like calling it. There are only so many true originals left in the world. That is it. No more. You got what may be one of the best. Appreciate it. Preserve it! Show it and share it. Take it on tours with the HCCA and the Studebaker meets. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

As I did not know him, or anybody that personally knew him, I have been hesitant on commenting. I did correspond with him some years back when I was looking into maybe buying a Brush. I have come close to buying a Brush twice, but not gotten one so far. It always saddens me to hear such news. I do not say that I am sorry to hear it. I want to know of my friends and my friend's friend and family losses because I care about them. I have lost several friends to drunk drivers and known too many people driving antique automobiles that have been hit by such idiots. I have been among the first people on the scene of drunk-driver collisions a few times. "What is right, is right. What is wrong, is wrong. Who your friends and family are does NOT change that!" Society needs to make a choice. Drunks and other reckless drivers should NOT be allowed to drive! Period. I like to drive my antique automobiles. I drive them at speeds similar to that of hundreds of people in modern vehicles. I pass modern vehicles nearly eery day that I leave the house. When I am driving my modern car, I am expected to not hit those people, trucks, tractors, etc. I should be able to have the same expectation. I Googled Mac's name and found that his wife was also killed. My condolences to their families, and their many friends. My prayers go with them as they have to so many others. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

Kelly K, I hope you do know what you bought! As a long-time horseless carriage AND speedster guy, I like it. I must also say that I was shocked at how much it went for. I would have never expected that. An important point. Speedsters and home-built race cars, are as much a part of automobile history as any Packard or Rolls Royce. Sadly, in the early decades of the antique automobile hobby ('40s, '50s, & '60s), they were not considered to be of any value at all. Although many of the "famous" racing cars were saved (like Old 16), most lesser race cars and speedsters were parted out to help restore "real" antique automobiles. Sadly, a lot of history was lost, and most speedsters have no traceable provenance. Along with several "real" model Ts and era non-Fords, I have so far restored six T speedster/racers from remnants from original cars. None of mine were intact cars when I got them, and none of them can be claimed as "true surviving originals". I do usually refer to them as "restored from the remains of an original", but when pressed will usually tell what parts are or are not from the "original" car. I have hundreds of copies of original photographs of speedsters and home-built racing cars. Most of the original pieces I have picked up over the years had absolutely no known history attached to them. I know they are from an original speedster, because of the way they were modified. I put them with other original era parts, and fill in the missing pieces as best I can. But I cannot tie any photo I have to any one surviving car. Without any "known" history, they are what they are. A representation of a special era in automotive history, as real as any other common antique car from that era without any real provenance. I enjoy them. What you have, may or may not have any "real" provenance either. I hope it does, or that you can find it. But whether you find it or not. What you have is a more "real", more "original", speedster, than probably more than 95 percent of all the "speedsters" on the road today. In my 45+ years in this hobby, I have only seen a dozen or less true intact original speedsters in person. I hope you treat this car as the special car it is. Restore or not, is your choice. But I would hope you keep it as close to how it was way back when (maybe lose the windshield, the description indicated that it may not be that early to the car anyhow). My opinion; My preference is that speedsters should be restored as close to how they were done "back in their day" as is reasonable. Use the type of materials and methods used in the day. Do the kind of modifications that they used to do if you need to replace a missing piece. Make it look like it could have been yanked out of one of those hundreds of original photographs. Make it look so that you could take your own black and white photograph and not be able to tell it from an original. Okay. Be reasonable. You will use modern copy tires, modern paints (unless you mix your own from formulas), and new wood and upholstery materials. And you may or may not make it a finer finish than most were originally. But make it like it really could have been "back in its day". As I said. That price surprised me. But I hope you can treat the car the way it, and your money, deserve. It has a lot of potential. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

A reminder and observation from me. This article was printed in an Austrian Motor magazine in 1925. The magazine has many lighthearted articles about (1925) present day trips, new in 1925 automobiles (both European and American including Chandler and model T speedsters), many advertisements for European and American products, and quite a few pages on motorcycle racing, etc. This article as well as one about the "First Cyclecar" appeared to simply be historic reprints printed for 1925 entertainment. With my limited ability to read German, I did not see any other explanation. But I very much enjoyed reading (as well as I could) several other articles among the over 50 pages of this particular magazine. Thank you Casper F for starting this thread.

This discussion has grown considerably on the MTFCA forum site. There is a fair amount of chit-chat (including from me), a couple partial attempts at translation, and what looks to my limited German like a very good translation. Anyone interested in the subject of the air-cooled pre-T Ford should check it out. It doesn't always work for me, but try the following link; http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/390897.html?1380241799 For those with some interest, but not wanting to succumb to a greater affliction (model T and earlier Fords) I will attempt to copy and paste the translation of the model H article with many, many, thanks to Stephen Heatherly "This an my attempt at a translation starting from the Four-cylinder Ford. (Die Vierzylinderige Ford.) The Ford motor Company has exhibited it's new 14 Horsepower at the Auto Show in Detroit, whose description and two pictures there of are show here. The engine has four vertical cylinders with cast cooling fins and is located at the from of the car under an enclosed hood. Inlet and outlet valves are attached at the top of the engine and both are necessarily driven. The crank shaft and it's five bearings are located within an aluminum housing. At the upper end of the cylinders is a rectangular flange. On this and the crank case metal plates are attached on both sides where by, the cylinders are surrounded by a housing. This housing is open on the front and back and has an extension to the flywheel at the back, which is mounted with wings (blades) and acts as a fan. A strong current current of air is created by this fan around the cylinders ensuring good cooling. The front and back walls of the cranks case are removable and a removable plate is located at the bottom. The engine is fastened to the frame at 3 points by one projection to the front of the frame and two to the side. Then under (Wagen mit Luftkühlung) Car with air cooling: The upper part of the hood is provided with hinges and can be folded back. A wire mesh is located at the front to allow the free flow of air. The engine produces it's maximum power at 950 revolutions per minute. The cylinders have a 3 3/4" bore and 4 1/2 stroke. The ignition is provided by a dynamo and two induction coils, which are housed in a box on the apron. (I guess firewall?) A doubble commutator is attached at the forward end of the crankcase outside of the hood. The plugs of the two outer and inner cylinders are connected in series so that a spark is produced in each two cylinders at every revolution of the crank shaft. With this arrangement one only needs two induction coils for four cylinders without the need for a commutator with the secondary voltage. (?) The commutator for the primary voltage consists of two parts one of which one half of the voltage is always sent. The Kingston carburetor is located on the side of the crank case and is provided with a choke cock, through which is opperated by foot pedal. The oiling of the bearings is done by a central lubricator which is powered by gas pressure as with the Ford race car. This lubricator is located between the motor and the firewall. The Ford planetary transmission has also been employed on the car and allows two speeds. The high speed is direct drive. The forward end of the gear shaft is bound to the flywheel by means of bolts, while the other end rests in a bearing, which is mounted to a cross-frame. The drive of the rear axle is done by shaft and bevel gears. The shaft is coupled to the transmission shaft by a U- Joint and is located in a tube in which the bearings are also located. The gear reduction of the rear axle is 3 to 1. The frame is manufactured from pressed- steel and rests on elliptical springs on both ends. The rear springs are mounted the frame by shackles on both ends, while the front springs are mounted only on the rear ends by shackles. The rear axle shafts are, as usual, encapsulated and rest on four ball bearings. The wheels are of the artillery type and have a 30" diameter and are provided with 3 1/2" pneumatic tires. The drums for the band brakes are located on the hubs. The front axle consists of a 1 13/16 steel pipe in which the stub axles are inserted. A small lever for the ignition is located under the steering wheel. The drive is operated by a side-mounted lever and a foot pedal. The low gear is selected by pull the hand lever back, while high gear is selected by throwing this lever forward. Reverse is engaged by foot pedal. A second, provided with a locking latch, operates the band brakes. Stephen " Again, my many thanks to Stephen! Also a request from Rob H "To anyone with command of Deutsch, if you search this site (or any other German related archives), would you please check for any documentation of these two Model K touring s shipped to Germany in 1906? Thank you, Rob "Automobile" July, 1906: (I can't figure out how to put the un-quotes in the right place) Rob has been doing a lot of searching and researching on the pre-T Fords and especially the model K. A number of model Ks were shipped to Europe in 1906-08. It is one of the trails being followed. So as to not make this TOO long, I won't copy and paste any more. Yet. But the research into the real, and sometimes forgotten, history continues. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

This has been discussed on the MTFCA and Early Ford websites. I will forward this link to our expert. He may be interested. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

To parrot what has already been said, I bought this for less than 8K only a couple years ago from a hobbyist that had had it for sale among many other hobbyists for about two years (wasn't flying off the shelf). Runs great. Only minor tinkering was needed before tour ready. Ruckstell, rebuilt engine, new radiator and much more included. It IS an old restoration that really needs a repaint (but still looks okay). Nice, but not strictly correct interior. No, I do not want to sell it. Prices have not gone up much in two years, in spite of all the stupid TV shows. (Not used to this forum format, I hope the picture comes out okay) Your friend can do better. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

Steve Moskowitz, Documentation? It has been a while (several years) since I read an article in one of the primary club magazines. I do not recall whether it was AACA, HCCA, or VMCCA, and I do not recall if it was a then current or an old issue I bought a couple hundred of a few years ago also. I can only assume that what I read was accurate (I rarely use the word "assume" because, as you know how it is spelled). I used it now because it may be appropriate in this instance. I do know that not everything printed is correct. I would hope that if someone was truly interested in the Pirate, they could do additional research. I type slow. Which may be a good thing. Otherwise I would "say" (write) a lot more (I also tend to be opinionated and outspoken, just ask almost anyone I know). If I were to spend the time to research and expand upon some of my comments, I would have no time left to work on my projects. And I have too many projects and too little time as it is. I had looked in on the thread several times hoping someone smarter than I had elaborated on the pirate, but no one had. Steve M, No offense taken. Just clarification. oldgascar, Sorry no non-T planetary transmissions laying around. I seem to recall an early, open, non-Ford planetary transmission being for sale in the HCCA Gazette a year or two ago. Otherwise, those are a bit difficult to find. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

Dandy Dave asked, and oldgascar answered about the Olds Pirate race car. Dandy Dave then commented leading me to believe he may not be familiar with it. For DD or anyone else wanting to know, the Olds Pirate was a race care built by Oldsmobile while Ransom was still around there. It was TWO Oldsmobile one cylinder engines connected together on a very light chassis with a tiny seat for the driver. A truly wild looking and fast little car (either 1901 or '02 if I recall correctly) (Not as sharp as I used to was) I believe there is one copy running around already. However, like 1886 Benz and Henry's quadracycle, some of these things need to be seen more than the surviving original can accommodate. Don't hide the fact that a car is a re-creation. Dandy Dave, I love that Buick roadster in your picture. oldgascar, Just curious, are you using original CDO engines? I would love to see that thing running some day! Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

Have you checked with the Horseless Carriage Foundation Inc? It is a research foundation connected to the Horseless Carriage Club of America. I believe it is hcfi.org and there are links to them scattered about AACA. I know there is one in the horseless carriage forum near the bottom of the forum choices. HCFI is a great asset to the hobby and very reasonably priced. But there is a research charge. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

As Frank said, the car on the right is a model T center-door sedan. They were built from 1915 and sold until 1923. The spare tire carrier indicates it would be 1919 or later, however they were sometimes later added to earlier cars. The rear bumper on the T is an after-market accessory and would be considered quite rare. Front bumpers that early were a little more common. Great photo! Thank you for sharing it. I don't think I can help much on the other car. However it looks like it would be a nice one to have. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

I recently learned of a Paige radiator available. From the pictures I have seen, it looks like the radiator and shell on my 1927 6-45 sedan. I know a '26 Jewett is very close, but have not had an opportunity to compare measurements. I have no connection to the seller, and have not seen this radiator in person. My only desire here is to pass this information onto anyone with a Paige that could maybe use it. See the photos I have seen at the following forum link. Model T Ford Forum: Swap Meet parts n stuff He was asking $450 at the swap meet, but may consider an offer, plus shipping of course if required. He says he has shipped radiators before. For contact information, send me a PM or an email at wfsheldon2@yahoo.com and I will send you his phone number. From there, you are on your own. I also sent information to Bill Roberts for his site, but have not seen it show up there yet. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2