wayne sheldon

The absolutely, extremely, important questions are all about what kind of wheel you need to make? The year, make, model, maybe even body style and certainly weight requirements along with desired quality for finishing and even how fast the vehicle is expected to be driven. We must know the dimensions of the hub, diameter of the felly, size of spokes including their diameter, length for each part of the spokes overall length, are the fellies wood or are they steel, what are the dimensions of that felly, what kind of end of the spoke fits into what kind of hole in the felly? Are you wanting to make a single wheel or a full set for one car? Or are you wanting to set up a shop to make wheels for maybe hundreds of cars? All of these things need to be known in order to give proper answers. A 1910 model T wheel is absolutely nothing like a 1929 Cadillac wood wheel. How they are put together is very different. There are spoke designs that would amaze you how they are assembled. The Model T Ford Club of America discusses wheel repair and restoration on its forum quite often, With a well worded google search, you should be able to find a couple dozen threads on the subject. A lot of the information will be model T specific. But a lot of it also would be good for similar wheels of any car or continent. http://www.mtfca.com/ We even have some regular contributors from your corner of the world. They may be able to help you with sources and supplies or maybe even shops to get work done. Wood is also very important. Generally speaking, Oak should NOT be used. But there are exceptions where it is recommended. Hickory wood, proper growth (if I recall correctly, I believe it is "second growth" Hickory that is best?), and properly seasoned (aged) is generally considered the overall best wood choice for wheel spokes. Good luck in your quest! Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

Congratulations! You can't get much more rare than that. And a good looking car also! Drive carefully, and enjoy! W2

Thank you for the update. And congratulations! Sounds like the good guys won one. Drive carefully, and enjoy! W2

Just to be clear. Model T pistons (with a little fitting work) will work in the model 22 Metz. The model 25 Metz has a slightly larger bore, an increase of 1/8 inch from 3 3/4 to 3 7/8 inch bore. A special oversize T piston could probably be ordered for a model 25 block provided the model 25 block did not itself need to be bored significantly oversize also. There are probably other pistons available that could also be used for a model 25 Metz. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

I have never seen a value guide that was worth a dime. Frankly, most appraisers I have met aren't much better. And I have met too many. As far as value guides go. If I could actually buy a lot of cars in fair condition for what they say they are worth, I could buy and resell a bunch of them and make a million dollars. I have seen early brass era Ts valued in these guides for a few hundred dollars. I am talking about cars that you couldn't buy the engine pan alone for the price. I am also referring to restorable Packards and Pierce Arrows listed at under a thousand bucks. Okay, that was a few years ago, but you couldn't find one available for their quote at five times the price then either. Totally on the other hand, those same books would price a marginal to decent restoration on many cars for two to three times what I knew of several cars were available for. And they were NOT selling. As for appraisers. I have met a few, and personally know one, that I like, admire, and would trust what they say. The rest? Lets just say that I have heard the phrase "Show me another one just like it for (that much money)" way too many times. An example (just one, but the general scenario has played out with me nearly a dozen times). A fellow is trying to sell a 1924 Dodge sedan that has been in the family for awhile. The car is certainly old, but not Horseless Carriage old. It is marginally desirable (please, I mean no offense to the four cylinder Dodge crowd, I like them). It was badly painted a bad shade of purple (I am not kidding! I saw the car!). The interior is only partially redone (also badly). It runs and is driveable, but does not look like any major restoration was ever done. So what does the fellow want for this gem? $48,000. The "professional appraiser", to whom he had paid actual money, is there with him. I did not know the "appraiser" was there when I tried to politely tell him that price was a bit high (really, he asked my opinion and I was polite and tried to be gentle). It was then that the fellow introduced me to his "appraiser". Guess what the "appraiser" said to me? "Show me another one just like it for less than $48,000." I have always said that an antique automobile is worth what you can find two people willing to pay. One fool with more money than brains doesn't count. If you can find two people willing to pay that, then maybe it is worth it. It takes a lot of solid understanding of the tiny nuances that separate a $5000 car from a $15,000 car to be able to truly appraise these things. Rare does NOT mean valuable. A beautiful paint job does not mean anyone else will want it if it is a wrong color (sorry, but that is true). I don't care if you did spend $40,000 on the restoration. If not done properly, you wasted a lot of money. Even if you did do it properly, you probably can't get most of your money back out of it (that is just a sad fact of life). A car is still only worth what you can actually sell it for. Whether a car is restored, or unrestored. A few good photographs posted on an appropriate forum (such as this one) will probably get several good estimates of real worth. Good luck. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

I would have never recognized him from that photo. He was involved in many things including early television, which my father was also involved in. My father often mentioned him, usually by a then well known nickname, Madman Muntz. I can see that in the photo. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

It looks like a beautiful T Ford! Nicer than mine. One would have to look very closely to know if anything on that car is 1917. The Body is clearly a 1924 model or 1925 model only. My coupe looks just like that (only an older restoration showing its age) and was built in April '24. Most likely, this coupe is a '24 solely based upon the 30X3.5 wheels and tires. While they were available in the 1925 models, most '25s got the new style 21 inch lower pressure "balloon" tires. One thing you may be able to tell, is that the '24 coupes had heavier wood frame doors, the '25 coupes mostly had steel frame doors which were lighter but rattle more. The '25 main body was still wood framed and nearly identical to the '24. As to the chassis? There are a couple dozen minor and major changes between 1917 and 1925 that could narrow down the years of the car or parts. Demountable wheels and starter were not available until 1919, although those often got changed later. One can wonder how and why so many people have gotten the years of so many cars so very wrong? But a lot of people have. My '24 T coupe. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

Without a size reference, and better detail, I cannot tell if it is a senior or junior size or whether original or reproduction. I don't know exactly when the wreathed rim first came out, but I believe it was about 1924 in the senior size (I have one for my '27 Paige). They are not real common, but not really rare either. Whole, working, original Boyce Moto-meters can be worth anywhere from about $20 to several hundred dollars depending on total condition, specific model, and what car (or truck) name badge is inside. Some truck names are among the most valuable. Boyce DID make quite a lot of other accessories for automobiles, including electrical temperature gauges, oil pressure gauges, and I think clocks. I don't think that is a Boyce clock, but please, do not take my word for it. I do not know. I might maybe could tell if I looked at it in person, but not from a photograph unless I could also see good photos of an original to compare with. You might want to check with a clock collector/expert. They could maybe help you most. It could be a real era accessory clock? Or it could be a tour trophy someone made up from spare stuff? I have doubts that Boyce would have used that rim on a mid '30s accessory. It was pretty out of date by then. But I could be wrong. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

I couldn't say if that is the one I saw or not. It is about the right year and style (unlike the '27 sedan further up). It could have been repainted later. The car I looked at was mostly one color light brown/beige about twenty years ago. Sadly, my friend passed away at much too young an age a couple years later. It often makes me wonder about the car in an odd sort of a way. Thanks Prewar40. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

I have seen a few over the years. About twenty years ago, I looked at a mostly nice sedan incorrectly painted light brown. However, it had a beautiful interior and ran very nice. I tried to talk a friend of mine into buying it. But he did not, and I have no idea what became of it (I even told him that if he bought it, he wouldn't have to mow his lawn anymore). Just out of curiosity, I would like to know what happened to it. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

That type of pop-out flip handle was used on any number of trucks and pickups during the mid '30s. I recall riding in such a truck when I was quite young. It was probably a Chevrolet, and may have been a 1934 my uncle had at about that time. I have seen similar handles on other trucks including I think Dodge. I do not know one handle from another. Or the fit of the windshield frame either. But I think that is from a '30s truck. It should be of value to someone, but not a lot of money. I hope you can find a good home for it. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

Whatever it really is? It has potential to show people what some early automobile efforts were like. And that is something that is not shown often enough. It sounds like you are on a good path, good luck! Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

You won't like me. And I (or anyone) would need to see either much better pictures or look at it in person to be certain of anything. However, from what I can see in these photos. It likely was just a horse-drawn carriage that someone tried to make an antique "Horseless Carriage" out of at some point. The Horseless Carriage Club of America, Antique Automobile Club of America, and the Veteran Motor Car Club of America were all founded in the mid to late 1930s. Interest grew slowly at first, both because real antiques (?) were still not very old, and there was the depression, followed by World War II. In the late '40s and through the '50s, interest in early automobiles grew. Cars were driven in local parades, and major club outings often made the local newspapers. A lot of people decided that they wanted to "join the fun!" Not fully understanding what the goal was, they got an old horse-drawn carriage, added a motor, and tried to make it driveable (steering and maybe brakes). That is what I think this car is. There are several reasons for why I think this. 1: The motor and clutch look very much like some that were commonly used during the 1930s to run things like washing machines. I could be wrong here. Companies like Waltham/Orient and De Dion Bouton made and sold engines for automobile use around 1900 that are not much different. They have aluminum crank cases and fins around the cylinder and so forth. But they are a bit different in how they appear to be made. Again, it should be looked at closely by someone that really knows what they are looking at. If you can find a nearby stationary engine club? They may be able to help you. 2: The steering. It was found very early in automotive development that a "center-swing" type front axle and steering simply did not work. Yes, it was done, and tried. If I recall correctly, even the Duryea brothers' first attempt may have tried it. How your car's steering is modified and braced from what appears to be a horse-drawn axle simply would not work. Any sort of roughness on a dirt road would throw you into a lurch at even 2 mph. Do not take what I have said as the final word! Who am I? Nobody, really. Just a long-time hobbyist (about 50 years) that has wanted the earliest and crudest horseless carriage I could get. And I think I got one. On the way to getting what I have, I looked at probably a couple dozen of those "modified during the '30s to '50s horseless carriages". A lot of them were built. What you are beginning to work on should be looked at very closely, by someone that knows a lot about really early cars and motors. It would be wonderful to find more early unknowns and bring them into the light. Even if they are unreliable and difficult to drive? They should be preserved and seen. Something I found doing my research. More than four hundred individuals and small companies built from one to maybe four automobiles before the year 1900. None of these people became commercial producers. Those more than four hundred people do not include Henry Ford, Alexander Winton, Apperson, Haynes, the Stanley twins or anyone else that even two percent of us could name. Those more than four hundred people and small companies were experimenters, blacksmiths, businessmen, and just plain folks that figured the automobile was the wave of the future. And they wanted to try their hand at it. Most of them are listed in the Kimes and Clark 'Standard Catalog of American Cars, 1805-1942'. Some on my list are not in that book, the result of many hours researching other sources as well. Other than some local "Historical Society", most of those over four hundred people are not well known outside the Kimes and Clark book. That is a lot of "unknown" horseless carriages that could be lurking around somewhere. Maybe what you are working on is one of them. However, the odds are against it. Good luck! W2

Yes Dave, my tongue is still sore from that! The only thing automotive that I like better than a nice Nickel Age car? Is a wonderful Horseless Carriage! (I love your '15 Buick by the way) And that is what I was told a long time ago. drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

Those following this thread here may want to look in on the Model T Ford Club of America's forum site to see what is being said about your situation. Comments, both good and bad are there. Warning, I did use the "H" word in my post. Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Something to ponder happening at the Vintage Chevy club This below should hopefully be the link straight to the thread.; http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/484313.html?1412647008 Or you may need to do a copy and paste to your browser. Good luck guys! Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

I don't know if I should say this or not. Especially since it is my second favorite era of automobiles (following horseless carriages), and most of the automobiles I have ever owned were of this era. Having neither the open craftsmanship and decoration of horseless carriages, nor the artistic streamlining of the mid '30s to late'40s, when I got into this hobby over 40 years ago, I was told that was the "ugly era". Sadly, I have never heard a better description for it other than the "nickel age" (or "nickel era"). The cars of that era were becoming well evolved, they were practical and affordable, relatively fast and reliable. Personally, I like the look of them. And I love driving them. Although it doesn't really describe the body style trend, I would go with Nickel Era. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

It always saddens me to hear of such losses. Thank you for informing those of us who otherwise may not have heard about it. Tires? I don't know. I have had a lot less trouble with thirty-to-forty-year-old tires than I have with newer tires. One of the most important questions, is whether the casing is cotton cord or not? Even a minute amount of rubber checking will allow moisture inside, and the cotton fibers rot (becoming very unsafe, very fast). Nylon and other synthetic fiber casings do not rot and can usually be rather badly checked, yet still be safe (provided the tire was properly manufactured in the first place). My condolences on the loss of your friend. Wayne Sheldon

So much gray area, to begin with. Personally, I don't like the idea of being a "purist", because it is unrealistic. I do want my cars to be as close to "era correct" as is reasonable. And that includes my model T boat-tail roadster. Although it does have a few accessories that weren't on the market until about 1924. Speedsters are a particularly difficult debate. And vintage modifications can be just as difficult. That issue aside, really early automobiles really need a club that caters to their specific needs, research, comradery, touring requirements. The HCCA is that club. They also have weathered a similar assault for many years. With them, it is not a modified acceptance, but allowing newer cars as active members. I have always argued against such a change. I also belong to a Nickel Age Touring Club (not affiliated with the HCCA). I want a nickel age club? I join a nickel age club. I want a horseless carriage club? I join a horseless carriage club. The HCCA should not expand into the '20s and certainly not later cars. The efforts to preserve AND TOUR earlier cars could be too easily lost if that happened. It is interesting to note, that they already do not tour the pre-1908 cars very much. In England and Australia, the really early cars are toured much more than they are here. I read a lot of the tour reports. There should be a club for cars nearly how Chevrolet built them. And that club should be the VCCA. I think the biggest problem, is the loss of understanding that there IS a difference. Too many people today do not understand that a hotrod and an authentically restored car are not the same thing. That goes hand-in-hand with not learning or appreciating history in general. That is part of catering to the "lowest common denominator" and teaching people that no matter what they do, it is a good thing and they should not ever be expected to learn anything different. The lessons of history are being lost, and that is leading us down a path that will likely end this once great nation. Then where will our cars be? Freedom is another important issue. I applaud people building hotrods (as long as they do so because that is what they want, and hopefully have enough appreciation to not destroy something historically significant). It does not mean that clubs should not be specifically for "era correct" cars. I have ranted enough for this time. Drive carefully, and enjoy, while you can. W2

Turn ignition off. Rotate crank until points are well closed. Turn on engine switch (do not leave it on long with points closed as that will eventually ruin the points). Use a screwdriver to snap the points open. Be prepared to holler "OWWW! All kidding aside. Do NOT use a volt meter to measure the high voltage side of any coil unless you have the PROPER meter and KNOW how to use it. Even many meters with high numbers available on their scale sometimes can be blown up like a firecracker unless you have the proper probe (and again KNOW how to use it). Run a spark plug type wire from the large "high voltage" connection on the coil to near a grounding point (engine head or bolt is usually good). Brace it or clamp it gently (vice grips can work well here, clamped onto good insulation only) holding the wire end less than a quarter inch (1/8 inch is better) from that bolt head or other grounding point. Now, being careful to not short or ground the points directly (screwdriver end wrapped in electrical tape can help, or use a Popsicle stick), with the ignition on, pry open the points. You should be able to jump a pretty good BLUE spark from the end of the wire across the open to ground. This all takes place before the distributor which is likely in the same housing device as the points, however points action and high voltage distribution are two separate functions. The next step would be to make sure that spark can find its way through the distributor to the each individual plugs. At this point, you need to brace or clamp each of every spark plug wire to a similar visible ground (or wires connected to the plugs, with plugs out of the cylinders and chassis base of the plug well grounded. Now a healthy starter might be nice, however, many antiques can be hand cranked. With switch on, rotate the crank about thirty rpm. Watch each and every wire or plug fire a nice blue to blue-white spark. If the spark is orange, the coil and/or the condenser is weak. This was how we did it in the old days and on deserted roadsides to determine that the ignition is working properly. It is also a good idea to do some of these checks in a dark garage (use a small flashlight to find things and set up, then lights out, and look for sparks jumping where they should not be. And though it all, do be prepared to to holler "OWWWW!" High voltage can find its way around and bite you when you do not expect it. A word of caution. SOME people with heart or other serious health issues could be harmed (or even killed) by an ignition shock. Engine ignition is very high voltage, but extremely low current. MOST, MOST, MOST people will not be harmed by an accidental shock from automotive ignition. It may hurt like the Dickens for a couple seconds. You may get a bruise or cut on your arm from pulling it away too fast and hitting the radiator brace rod. Generally speaking, voltage does not kill you. Current (amps) kills you. Under the wrong circumstances, a 90 amp six volt car battery can kill a healthy man. I have been shocked dozens of time and for many reasons and circumstances. I have even grabbed spark plug wires on a running engine just to prove the point. Several times. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

mtfca.com also recently vastly improved their classified section. Now. It may seem a bit archaic by web standards today. However, that is how most of us crazy model T people like it. Check in with us. Read. Enjoy! You may be able to get some good suggestions for salvaging badly rusted sheet metal. It really depends upon just how bad is it? And what do you expect from it? One of our regulars salvaged a really rough original body because it had been in his family since before WWII. It will never be a show car, but he is enjoying the car and rightfully proud of it! I have used phosphoric acid to clean and alter rust before using oil based paints (disappearing due to the EPA). It used to work better than it seems to in more recent years. Other people swear by POR. I have never used their products, but have to admit that they may be the way to go. This could also be a good discussion on AACA's general discussion section. Rust hits all marques and vintages. It has been discussed at great length on mtfca.com and they could be searched for quite a lot of good suggestions. Or it could again be a fresh discussion (although you may get a few people telling you to try searching old threads also). I don't want to steal away AACA's people too much. My apologies if I have offended anyone here. Both sites have their advantages, and best audience. Quite a few regulars there are on here a lot also. I wander around here occasionally. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

There were probably literally hundreds of different accessories made to mount onto radiator caps along with the popular MotoMeter. Boyce made a lot of them. Most of them were made by other companies. There were probably a dozen different sets of wings to mount between the MotoMeter and the cap, similarly to yours. A couple styles have been reproduced off and on for a half century now, and more of them are repros by now than are era originals. The ones you have shown, I am not aware of having been reproduced (but they may have been, I certainly do not know everything). They are more rare, or unusual at least, than most. And I think that makes them more desirable. There has been a set like these on and off eBad for several months this past year. Could these be them? I have seen maybe a dozen like this at swap meets over the past 45 years. Most of them were broken. Yours look great! Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

There is a lot of great history about Paige. Harry Jewett refused to race cars to promote the brands (other than a few endurance runs to promote the Jewett and simple speed runs for the 6-66 Paige in the '20s). However, others, including E L Cord of Auburn/Cord /Duesenberg fame, did race them quite successfully. From 1913 until 1927, they lost money in only one year. Very few automobile manufacturers can make a claim like that other than Ford and a few like Studebaker that had already been in successful business for decades before getting into automobiles (Dodge had made a fortune for ten years building chassis and parts for Ford before they built under their own name). For one year, shortly before selling out to the Graham Brothers, Paige/Jewett, against a hundred other companies, made the top ten Automobile manufacturers in the United States. Although referred to as an assembled car, they were well engineered, well built, most maajor parts unique to Paige/Jewett, and for the money, a good value. Actually, then and now. A fellow I know, toured with Pierce Arrows for several years. He bought a 1921 Paige (very similar to the one for sale), and found that he liked touring with the Paige even better. http://www.wcroberts.org/Paige_History.html for an independent website devoted to Paige. (I hope the posted link works, I am not that good with computers) There used to be a Jewett registry website, however it has died in the past year. I believe that I heard the fellow running it had died earlier. I guess the family gave up on it. The book 'The Graham Legacy: Graham-Paige to 1932' by Michael E Keller is the best single source that I know of for Paige and Jewett history. THIS IS MY OPINION AND MAY BE OFFENSIVE TO SOME: Unfortunately, I have found that the Graham Owners Club International has not been very accepting of Paige and Jewett automobile owners in the past. This, in spite of the fact that they state that Paige and Jewett owners are welcome. I have checked their forum only a few times in the past ten years because several Paige owners that attempted to participate were pretty much ignored. Coke bottle collectors were welcomed much better by many people because the Graham brothers invented the machine that made the famous Coke Cola bottle possible. That was where the Grahams made their first fortune leading them to work toward producing automobiles. Roto Tiller owners were welcomed with open arms because the Graham brothers were instrumental in developing and producing them after WWII. Paige and Jewett automobiles were produced by someone else, and often treated as unwanted distant cousins. Just me? I am not generally that thin-skinned. About a half dozen people with very nice Paige automobiles received NO responses to their postings with photos of their nice cars. Frankly, I wouldn't have cared that much for myself. My Paige is not nice enough and needs too much work for me to care that much for myself. If I live long enough (beginning to look doubtful), maybe I will get my Paige done. Anyway, my apologies if I offended any Graham owners (they are good automobiles and deserve recognition). I really would like to see a better resource for Paige and Jewett owners. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

I find that the "best match" and their suggestions are all completely useless. Their computers and their programmers know NOTHING about antique automobiles. Just be grateful that you are not searching for "Paige" memorabilia and/or literature. I have a 1927 Paige five passenger sedan. Try it sometime. Remember that I can't search too restrictedly, because I would not find most of what is there. But be aware that many of the listings they show you may contain rather objectionable photos. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

I agree with sambarn a bit about this thread wandering off a bit. The question was about such cars being common in the late '20s and early '30s. However, much of the discussion has been about the history leading up to the cars of '29/'30. I have heard these referred to by several names, including Victoria coupes, but usually as opera coupes. Buick probably built the most of these. I have personally known about a half dozen, and seen photos of probably thirty surviving examples built from 1924 through 1931. Most well known automobile manufacturers of the '20s offered this style for at least a couple years, mostly somewhere between 1923 and 1927, although the style went back to near the beginning of major automobile production. I have seen a couple 1912 Cadillacs, I think a 1914 White, and a few other brass era marques restored and on tour. A good friend of mine has a 1921 Marmon, another friend a 1920 (?) Pierce Arrow. I have ridden in these as well as a couple of the Buicks. Yet another friend has a 1925 Pierce Arrow series 80 opera coupe. They are beautiful cars, and not very common. However, not terribly rare as a whole either. Although the back seat is fairly small, people were smaller back then also. Most literature I have seen refers to these cars as four passenger. Remember, the average mid-size sedan of that era was considered to be a five passenger car. The 5-passenger sedan back seat is larger, but not that much. I personally find it interesting that this question surrounds Graham Paige, as I have a 1927 (pre Graham) Paige automobile. With some interest in Paige history, the only "Paige, Graham Built" car I ever saw up close was an opera coupe on the same chassis as my 6-45 Paige 5-passenger sedan. The "Paige Graham Built" was only produced for a short time in the latter half of 1927 and early 1928. Other than the name badges, the cars were almost identical to the 1927 Paige regardless of the model or body style. I have not seen that car for about 30 years, and do not know what became of it. It was being restored at that time. I had heard later that it was finished, toured, and shown, and that it looked good. But I never saw it done. Another little side note about the body style. A few after-market body suppliers actually offered such bodies for model T Fords. Several survive, I have seen two up close. These, again like the Buicks etc, are not full classics. As to the actual original question? Three of the Buicks I have known were 1930 or '31. I also saw a 1930 Cadillac opera coupe once. I believe a 1930ish Auburn and a Packard also. Pierces, Packards, and Auburns, were full classics. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

Where are these parts located? A few things I could surely use, but shipping costs can be a real killer! Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2