wayne sheldon

I have a pile of '13/'14 Metz parts. What I have looks to be in worse condition than what you show here! Not looking to sell. Not in a position to buy (too broke, and getting too old). But I could maybe be interested in parts for cheap if not far from where I am. What I have coupled with what you show could almost make a decent project. Although I am not looking to sell, realistically, I should, and if you happened to be within a few hundred miles, I would consider working something out. Believe me, my stuff would be cheap! But only to someone with a serious interest in restoring one. And something like my pile could make the difference in making your project worthwhile.

The engines turn slower, but a lot of mid-teens cars are higher geared than the big cars of the mid '20s to early '30s. I was on a nickel age tour about fifteen years ago with the '15/'16 Studebaker six cylinder touring car I used to have (sure do miss that car!). I pulled into a museum stop after about thirty miles of nice two lane open road. A few minutes later a fellow club member pulled in with his Wills St Claire roadster (a six, not the V8) and asked me if I had been going as fast as I could? I replied "No, I had a fair amount more top end yet". He seemed a bit upset, then told me he had tried to keep up with me (I was keeping up with a '15 Locomobile!) for awhile then he decided he had to back off a bit. I had been watching him in my rear-view mirror and lost him at one of the very few traffic lights we saw before the museum stop. Afterwards, I sped up a bit to catch the Locomobile because I knew (from the excellent tour instructions!) that the museum stop was only about five miles ahead, and if he or the others behind me had troubles and didn't show up within a few minutes, we could know to go back and check on them. The Wills St Claire flat out could not keep up with my seven year older Studebaker, let alone the Locomobile from my same year. I am fairly sure the Locomobile could have left me in the dust if he wanted to. Most of the CCCA eligible '10s era cars will keep up just fine with most other CCCA tours or Caravans. In the early '20s, most automobile manufacturers lowered gear ratios because as roads became better (a bit counter-intuitive!), and more cars were driven within cities, it became more difficult to open cars up to what amounted to ridiculous speeds in most driven areas. Low speed performance and city driving with significant traffic became the norm. Therefore, lower gearing became more practical than bragging rights over who's touring car could go the fastest on some rare smooth back road someplace. In the depression years, automobile engineers worked on improving engines to turn faster, therefore pushing the top speed back up again with the public works projects further improving highways.

This is an area where I tend to buck the "conventional wisdom". However, if the casing is cotton cord? Definitely, do not trust old tires. Even the tiniest surface cracking can allow water to invade the cotton cord. A fungus common to cotton can grow and (literally) eat the fibers of the cotton resulting in severe weakness. This is not unlike dry-rot in wood. Nylon cord on the other hand, does NOT rot! It can deteriorate due to UV exposure (like most synthetic plastics and fibers). Unless the surface cracking gets so severe that the nylon fibers become visible to the naked eye? They can last many decades with only minor loss of strength. Most nylon cord tires (not otherwise physically damaged) as long as the rubber is somewhat pliable, can be safe to use even at fifty or sixty years old. I have a few Sears Allstate tires in model T/A 21 inch size that are known to be from the late 1960s. Personally, I wouldn't hesitate to head out on a coast to coast tour with them if I had a car that used that size. On the other hand, I have a 30X3.5 model T size clincher tire that was about fifteen years old when I got it about fifteen years ago. The silly thing looked new-old-stock. Nearly perfect. No visible cracking, checking, no obvious signs to be concerned about. When I went to mount it on a model T rim (about twelve years ago), the bead ripped. And again, and again, and again. Finally accepting that it wouldn't work even as a shop roller (all that I wanted it for at the time), I took it off and looked it over carefully. Then I grabbed the tire with my bare hands and ripped the sidewall like a cheap catalog! I know a lot of people disagree with me. But for me (a broke cheapskate!), whether an old tire should be used or not depends mostly on what the casing is made of. As long as it hasn't sat in the sun too much or been damaged in other ways. A lot of Allstate tires were nylon cord, many of them labeled as such. Unfortunately, many tires (Allstate and many other companies) are not labeled what material cord they used.

Don't know if I want to say anything or not. But questions asked should be answered. It appears to be a Canadian touring car (Since it is in Canada, why shouldn't it be?). It has several Canadian T features. The slanted windshield frame appeared on Canadian cars about two years (maybe three? Still some debate on that) before the slanted windshield appeared on USA cars for the 1923 model. The Canadian windshield also has both upper and lower frames folding whereas the USA cars only had the top frame fold (bottom half was fixed in the frame). The "one man top" also appeared in Canada well before it did on the USA produced cars. People familiar with USA Ts would automatically say it was a '23 to '25, if it is the low hood/radiator which I think it is, most would instantly guess 1923. However, being Canadian, it may be as early as a 1920 with that top and windshield. As to condition and value. A couple pictures don't tell us much. However, the top and the interior are very poorly done. Not the worst I have seen, but not good at all. Can't see a lot of the rest of it, however the long lower radiator hose and no steel connector pipe also indicate some corners were cut in its restoration. No telling how much work would be required mechanically to have a sound tour car. But with a few "red flags" already? 7000 USD is about the most it might be worth here, a little more if it runs really well. Local markets vary depending on local interest and demands. It could be worth a bit more or less there.

Strictly in the "for whatever it is worth" department. I haven't bought anything from 5Barn Auto for a few years now, or ebad either. Basically because my financial situation had gotten worse, and I couldn't afford to look for things I couldn't afford to want to buy. However, before things went from bad to worse, I did find myself buying quite a few items from 5Barn. I still have their old business cards, with the same scripted logo on them. I bought several things from them over a couple years time, probably close to a dozen different purchases, some of which included a half a dozen different items. I was always very pleased with the transactions. In full disclosure mode, I will admit I was unhappy with one item (It was a model T timer as I recall?). I contacted him, and with no objections, no issues, no foot dragging or excuses of any sort, he sent a replacement that I was quite happy about. What more could any reasonable person ask? I am not a big fan of eBad (why else would I refer to them as "eBad"?), but 5Barn Auto was one dealer I liked and would continue to do business with (if I wasn't too broke to go looking for things). For whatever it is worth.

Chevrolet varied from model to model and year to year. However, most years and models from 1924 through 1929 were available in either wood spoke or steel disc wheels. Wire wheels became available as a third option by 1929. Whether the wood or the steel wheels were the standard issue or the option seemed to change by years, models, points of origin, or destination. Personally, I like wood spoke wheels. NICE Chevy!

Vacuum tanks are a marvelous work of old era technology! For getting the car going for the first time in years, first check to make sure the tank is not rusted through or leaking. Often, it is best to carefully remove the top. However be careful, those eight little screws do like to break. Then getting the broken end out of the tank is a royal pain. If the vacuum tank is good, and the lines to the carburetor are good and clean with no leaks? You are all set up with a low volume temporary tank already mounted on your firewall to put one to two quarts of gasoline in and try to start the motor (of course after all other motor checks,fluids, and gaskets are ready!). If you can't or don't want to take the top off the vacuum tank? Take the fuel line input to the vacuum tank (the line from the gasoline tank) off carefully. These fittings usually come off easily, usually nothing wants to break. Then using a funnel, put about one cup of gasoline into the tank. Check for leaks. If leaks are found, repair them. Hopefully just taking fittings apart and reassembling them with some proper sealant (not too much, don't want to plug up the fuel flow!). If the bottom of the vacuum tank itself leaks? Then it is a more complicated repair. If no leaks are found, or have been sealed? Then add another cup of gasoline. Two cups should get the level above where leaks usually form. To start the engine? Once the vacuum tank has passed the first simple checks and fixes? One to two quarts of gasoline can be poured into the top of the vacuum tank with a funnel into the inlet fittings. Best to temporarily block off the vacuum line so to not cause a vacuum leak issue with the carburetor. Beyond that, the one to two quarts of gasoline is a controllable enough to run the motor for short whiles. It allows you to monitor amounts and times without wondering whether the vacuum tank is working properly, the fuel lines don't leak, the gasoline tank isn't plugged (it doesn't even have to be installed!). Once you know the motor is running fairly well, THEN you can sort out those other details. You can even do a short test drive running on that quart or two in the vacuum tank. Just don't go too far. A quart or two may take you a block or two, up to maybe a mile or so. Depends a lot on how much you used to get it started. Years ago, in my '29 Reo, I would put a quart in the vacuum tank, then drive three long blocks to the service station to fill the gasoline tank before going on a tour. (I often kept the tank empty when not being driven.) Beautiful Packard! I love it!

I may be the strange one. I have never really been drawn to fire trucks a whole lot. However, I truly appreciate anything that old in really original condition! That truck is wonderful! And your pictures of the interior bring back so many memories. My family had a whole bunch of Chevrolet and GMC trucks so many years ago. I did a lot of my learning to drive in several of them. I drove hundreds of miles in a '54 GMC ton and a half lineman's extension ladder truck! It had a small bucket to stand in at the top. I was using the ladder for service repairs before I could legally drive (NO hydraulics in those days, the ladder was raised and extended, positioned and handled all by pure brawn!). My dad had a two-ton Chevy flatbed, several panel/service trucks, pickups, among others in the family that I also drove. But what caught my eye? The Motorola radio. I still remember the call signals used in the television service business. K-M-K, 2-4-2, Mobile two to base (or mobile six or?). And, to keep this connected. We (my family) were headed to a family visit when we spotted a car fire just starting up going the other direction. My dad swung our car up onto the next overpass (we were just outside our normal range from the base, and needed the added elevation). My dad then radioed the base, to call for a firetruck. After making contact, we got back onto the freeway (one of the few in the greater San Francisco Bay Area at that time!) and headed to where the car had pulled off the road, its trailer almost fully engulfed at that point. He then unhooked the trailer before the fire could spread to the towing car, just as the firetruck arrived to extinguish the trailer, which was a total loss. It may not be "brass era" or "nickel age", but that truck is a wonderful, and so very excellent original, piece of history! I hope you enjoy it for a long time while you figure out what to do with it.

Good family should be cherished as much as one can, while one can. I can see you have some good family there. Day by day, enjoy the lucid moments. Remember the better days. Make the best you can with time you have left. If I ever get my project looking like a real car, I will try to post a few pictures.

vl2, I have read many comments about your dad here. Good to see a picture of him. Mental issues are particularly sad and difficult to deal with. You have my sympathies. By the way. Grass Valium here today hit 80 degrees!. I may yet get my project painted.

There is a lot to like around here! And some? Not so much. A lot of wonderful back roads! Most of them separated by local highways not very agreeable to a model T Ford. On the other hand, many of the locals don't drive their modern cars much faster than a model T can go anyhow. When we moved here a bit over thirteen years ago, I knew the mountainside wasn't a great place for fruit trees and vegetable gardens. Now, my little acre has way over a hundred trees on it. Black oaks from huge century plus, to still small twenty year-olds. Ponderosa pines way over a hundred feet tall! Dozens of other "small" pine and fir trees (if you think thirty to fifty feet tall is "small"?), and more struggling to reach the sunlight. Also about a dozen cedar trees, plus hundreds of cedar seedlings popping up all over the place. My house cannot be seen from Google Earth! Too many trees. It is a bit difficult to find even from the street. But I wanted a few fruit trees anyway, so I planted some. Of course my "black thumb" didn't help any. Clearly, my grandfather's farming genes got lost along the way. However, it almost never failed, as the trees grew, and they began to blossom? Almost every year, within three days of the blossoms opening? We got a torrential rain or hail storm. In ten years, I got three edible peaches, and one good pear. The deer tried harder and ate the apple tree in spite of the wire mesh around it.

And in Grass Valium, Califunny, a few days ago, we had our annual torrential rains that knock all the blossoms off the fruit trees!

Please do not throw it out! I would pay reasonable mailing costs to have a spare if others have backed out. I do already have a few spare parts, so I don't really need it. But if I do ever get the Paige back onto the road, I could need a few more spare pieces.

Califunny is SO wonderful! (Excuse me now while I go puke!) Because they are so efficient and reliable (retch), I have several times had to fight with the state, a few fights that lasted for years, over state errors claiming my legally "non-oped" vehicle had been seen on a public street. No matter that my legally non-oped vehicle had never been within a hundred miles of the location, or that my vehicle was a Chevrolet while the offending vehicle was clearly noted as being a Dodge (one time was a Toyota!). The state offered NO recourse other than to pay nearly a thousand dollars in fees and penalties for what was CLEARLY a bookkeeping error on their part! The one bright (?????) spot is they have made me almost an expert on one thing. ABSOLUTELY NO (nada, none!) part of an unregistered vehicle is allowed to touch the ground on any part of a public roadway! But you can haul almost anything on a legally licensed car hauler/trailer, provided it is loaded on private property.

"Soon we may start seeing the “European” attitude of collector car restoration and collection standards......a ten to fifteen footer that runs and drives great. Whether one sees this as positive or negative is another story......." This hobby is huge enough, that there should be room for both approaches to restoration and use. Neither should put-down the other. I do think both approaches should work towards more correctness based upon how the cars were done originally. Modern colors, improper type upholstery materials, and wrong era accessorizing looks bad on both extremes of restoration and use. Me? I prefer twenty footers and cruising down the quiet roads. (as long as they are mostly era correct in appearance.) (And I apologize, I just HAD to correct your spelling error inside my quotes.)

I do LOVE stories like this!! (If it turns out to be April Fool, I will be VERY upset!) Personally, I am totally disgusted with the whole "numbers matching" shtick. It is supposed to mean something, that the car is a real surviving original something or other. Yet there are restorers that specialize in taking rusted out hulks, keeping the firewall, doorjamb, some engine parts, and replacing EVERYTHING else. Then selling it as a "numbers matching car. Meaningless at that point. People go gaga over common '30s cars which 90 percent of them still have their original engines just because they were seldom ever changed! They go nuts about '10s and '20s cars claiming "NUMBERS MATCHING" for cars that had only one serial number ever! Or making the claim on cars that had two serial numbers, that never did match, even from the factory! With only a some exceptions, in some years, muscle cars, sports cars, full custom classics, where it does mean something, "numbers matching" is mostly marketing hoo-ha and buzz words. That is my disgruntled opinion. All that said. I love it when an antique car can defy the odds and get its original engine back!

All of the model Ts appear to be between 1919 and 1922. Many of the other cars (including the Maxwell I see the back end of) appear to be from the same era. A few of the cars appear to be late '10s with the earliest about 1916 or '17 (really hard to tell with all the decorations in the way?). Clothing styles all appear to be from about the same time-frame. Women's dresses and hats look to be a carryover from the late '10s, before the flapper era.

Definitely not a Cadillac. More likely a Chevrolet. But I m not even sure about that one.

One needs to be very careful with these hoods! Because they CAN be unlatched and lifted off completely, people that do not understand them will unlatch both sides and try to open the hood only to have it slide down the fender! Years ago, I watched (from a distance) in horror as I saw people do that. Really makes a mess of the fender's paint! Somehow I found myself in that position several times at swap meets and car shows. I never had one of those Buicks, but somehow I had learned of the hood system when very young. I found myself screaming at people several times at various meets to prevent them from damaging a car they were looking at. I still don't know why some people think they have the right to open everything on a car they don't know about when the owner isn't there watching it, just because it has a "for sale" sign on it.

Mark Wetherbee, Do you know how long that left side panel was made in two pieces? I knew about the manufacturing troubles that delayed introduction of the '15 style open cars, and that early ones used two pieces put together instead of a one piece stamping. I have never heard exactly how long that "fix" was used. I am always trying to learn more about these things. And part of my interest is that I am working on restoring one myself. I totally agree that this car looks to be mostly an original real car, restored, and a really good deal for the money! I wish I could afford to buy it. It would be smarter than restoring the one I have. But for me, my "pile" will have to do. At least it is from an original early '15, however far from a complete car when a friend of mine got it. The body has the original date coded plate like the one shown above for the subject car. Mine is date coded February '15. And yes, my left side panel was also made in two pieces, seamed at the rear of the fake door lines. This is a nice looking car! I hope it gets a good home. It would be nice if I can get mine on the same HCCA tour as this one some day. Mine will be the worse one.

This is an issue throughout the collector car hobby that I get passionate about. And I do tend to be on the less populated side. As background and illustration of my point of view, when I was fifteen, and just getting into this hobby (1967), I joined several of the major national clubs to get and read their magazines so that I could find my niche. For a short time, I was a member (non-active) of the CCCA. Frankly, for me, Most CCCA cars were simply too modern. The more I looked, the more I knew that I really wanted Horseless Carriage and into the mid '20s cars. Between that, and the fact that I could not in any way afford a decent CCCA car, I dropped that club after a few years. I still like them, and I very much respect their place in the collector car hobby. If I could afford it, I would probably have a CCCA car and participate in the club somewhat (many of my best friends do!). At this point, since I cannot afford the cars I really want, I am certainly not going to pursue a car I cannot afford that isn't what I really want. So why does my opinion matter? The HCCA is always debating the flip side of this issue. "Should we allow newer cars as active members in the HCCA?" I am always quick to say a resounding "NO!" The clubs should be formed around the needs and interactions of the cars. Cars manufactured before about 1916 NEED special attention. They NEED tours designed around their limitations. They NEED experts familiar with how to repair them and maintain them. Some people in the HCCA believe that the '15/'16 cutoff is actually later than it should be. I would say I can agree with that, however today we have to work with what was decided half a century ago. So I argue to keep it as it is, and it does work fine. But if newer cars were allowed? I expect that tours would mostly become too difficult for some of the smaller HCCA cars. The situation is basically the same for the CCCA. Frankly, I have seen a few clubs before become "more inclusive", only to run off and leave the cars and members they had behind. Another example of what I see as the error of the thinking. In the San Francisco Bay Area, there used to be several HCCA Regional Groups (most of them are still around). Regional Groups are allowed by the National to set their own cutoff years for local events. What I find interesting, is that the largest and most active of those groups is a "strict pre'16" group. They have good turnouts of brass era cars, very active members, and quite a few member families that are much younger than I have become! There used to be, just a Bay Bridge drive away, another Regional Group, that allowed cars up to about 1930 for their local events. But they disbanded about twenty years ago because they couldn't maintain an active membership. So much for allowing newer cars to solve the membership problem. Although I am not a member, and my opinion doesn't count for much? I feel that the CCCA has watered down their classifications too much already. While there were a few marques and models that many years ago maybe should have been added, and I might even agree that certain cars that a 1925 model was an accepted CCCA classic, the '24 or '23 of the nearly the same model maybe should have been allowed. My feeling is that they have stretched it a bit too far already. As I have said in many such discussions on this subject, "Drawing that perfect-for-all line in the sand is not difficult. It is IMPOSSIBLE!" Both clubs have the same problem. Where should that line be drawn? No place you put it will be right and fair for all. As for the Chrysler model here in question? I do not know the cars well enough to have a meaningful opinion and would willingly defer to Matt H's opinion. Although I do agree that they look beautiful!

Two different photos, and two different cars. Radiator's top shape is the clearest difference. Both are however Sizaire-Naudin. I do not know, however I believe that the first (upper) photo is the later of the two cars. An interesting bit of history about the Sizaire Naudin is that they were one of the couple entrants into the 1908 New York to Paris race that did not get very far. If I recall correctly, they dropped out after the first or second day. Although their single cylinder and lightweight cars with their unique front suspension were often raced in Europe and performed very well there, they were caught unprepared for America's lack of roads.

NOT a Ford TT.

When I was much younger, about 45 years ago, I got to look closely at a (if I recall correctly) 1921 American touring car. It had had a marginal cosmetic "restoration", was mostly a solid original survivor, of a very rare low production car. Very few remain. One of the unusual details I remember about the car was the rather large cast aluminum eagle that graced the top front of the radiator shell. I thought the price was reasonable for the time, but could not afford it. I was pleased when a private collector I knew decided it was just too rare and original to not be preserved. This fellow owned numerous wonderful cars, including a Simplex, '27 Packard roadster, McFarlan, and even a very early Thomas among quite a few more very nice cars. He kept his collection in several different buildings scattered around the area. Unfortunately, his neighboring business in one of the buildings was careless and burned the building to the ground. Five very good and valuable cars were a total loss. The American touring car was the least valuable car in the building. However, it could well be considered the biggest loss in terms of automotive history in that building. The Simplex and Mercer were also lost, but I know of several others of those. I have never seen another one of those American cars in person, and only I think one on the internet.

You may want to offer this advice to any potential buyer. Or maybe do this yourself. However, some people (including me), would prefer to see the area first, then do the minor repair themselves so that they can know what is being repaired rather than just hope it was done right. As long as the wood appears to be good and solid (no rot), that split is not a big deal. Using a small pick, maybe a small razor cleaning brush, and an air hose to blow all the dirt and dust out first. Mix and apply some good epoxy into the cracks, roll around slowly to flow into the various areas. Then use three modern stainless (worm gear) hose clamps of appropriate size (have these ready and waiting before applying the epoxy). Tighten all three hose clamps over and over again until they will tighten no more. Wipe off the excess that squeezes out. Allow to dry. Generally, removing the hose clamp is not too difficult (although you may bend it drastically in the process). Some sanding and paint preparation will be needed. The reason this is not a serious flaw, is that the outer inch or so of spoke length is the least stressed area of the spoke. Most of the leverage/purchase stress is near the hub end of the spoke. The two collapsible split rims may or may not fit the wheels. Careful expanding of them may make it easy to determine if they might fit or not. I do not know what DeSoto used for rims at that time. Someone else may be able to answer that. The four snap rings are for a different type of multi-part split rim. Many trucks, and a few cars, did use that type of two or three part split rims during the '20s and early '30s. The rings may be as valuable alone as the wheels are. Those rings can be dangerous if not handled correctly while mounting onto the rims they are used on. Properly handled, they are fairly safe, and people familiar with them often need better rings than they have. I actually do need some rings of that type. So I should ask what you would want for them? I am located about an hour North of Sacramento.