Phaeton vs Touring

[pistoncollector]

Can anyone give me the text book definiton in use during the 1930s for a Phaeton and a Touring car? What are the differences between the two body styles, if any?

Paul

[West Peterson]

Both cars are four-door open cars. Some companies used the term "phaeton" for a car that is actually a "touring." Buick is one that I can think of off the top of my head. Buick in the early 1930s did not offer a real phaeton, but advertised their touring as a phaeton.

The rear portion of a touring body is longer than a phaeton, and the rear passenger seat is located a little behind the rear axle. Also, a touring will usually have "jump seats" that fold into the back section of the front seat.

The rear seat of a true phaeton will usually be situated right over the rear axle, if not a little forward of it. There are no jump seats in a phaeton (usually). Sometimes a phaeton will have a fold down "cowl" that usually has a second windshield attached to it, reducing the amount of draft in the rear.

The importance to know the difference is that there is a pretty big difference in value between the two body styles. Be careful, as unscrupulous dealers (or even individuals) will advertise a touring as a phaeton, trying to "catch" a new-comer in the hobby, showing them the value guide price of a phaeton instead of a touring.

[Restorer32]

At least as it pertains to Packards, a touring is a longer body and has jump seats, a phaeton does not.

[alsancle]

I've always understood phaetons to have no roll up windows. I guess that would be the difference between one and a conv sedan which has roll up windows.

A.J.

[West Peterson]

Yeah. That's what I meant by "open," but again, some companies are guilty of bastardizing the term (Cadillac is guilty, calling their convertible sedans "all-weather phaetons", and Auburn... and Cord even called its five-passenger cabriolet/convertible -- two-door -- a phaeton)

Generic meanings:

Phaeton: four-door convertible, no roll up windows, five passengers (inc. driver)

Touring: four-door convertible, no roll up windows, seven passengers (inc. driver)

[D Binger]

West,

Why do they call a Model T Ford or any of the early open cars a touring? Most are not a seven passenger.

[Packard enthus.]

the answer to your question is...it is a free country..and you are free to call what you want..what you need to, to sell it...! If you dont believe me..go to your nearest magazine store's automotive section, and see what they are calling "classic" these days...!

[West Peterson]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">West,

Why do they call a Model T Ford or any of the early open cars a touring? Most are not a seven passenger. </div></div>

Actually, the answer to your question is that the original question was referring to the 1930s. The use of the term "phaeton" didn't start to take grasp until the mid to late 1920s, when Model Ts were on their way out.

When the phaeton term started being used, it was meant to describe a car that was a little "sportier" than a touring, thus the premium paid today.

[Restorer32]

A roadster has side curtains and a conv coupe has roll up windows, so what does Packard call their '32 convertibles with roll up windows ? Coupe-Roadsters of course.

[pistoncollector]

West,

I find all this interesting. But I keep thinking about little things like the 1927

Ford was referred to as a Model T Touring and the 1928 Ford was referred to as a

1928 Phaeton. What a difference a year makes, huh?

As a point of interest, here is the

defination of a Phaeton straight from the SAE Manual, Body Style Definitions,

as of 1925:

__________________________________________________________________

Phaeton

An open-type body with two fixed cross-seats for two or five

passengers. Folding seats in the tonneau for two additional

passengers are sometimes used. The conventional body has four

doors and a phaeton-top with emergency side-curtains that are

removable.

___________________________________________________________________

Notice that it says "seats in the tonneau for two additional

passengers are sometimes used." This would indicate that a Phaeton

could have two jump seats which would make it a seven passenger car.

So, given this fact, do you think that a TOURING is a subset of the

body style PHAETON? You know, like a RECTANGLE is a subset of the

geometric family known as SQUARES?

I have seen Packards with identical bodies and wheelbases and one would

be referred to as a Touring and the other as a Phaeton. And what about

a Touring Sedan (Packard is famous for this term)? I once had a 1937

Packard Touring Sedan and it didn't have seats for seven passengers.

I am not even sure that seven passenger capacity has anything to do with

the title of "Touring".

So once again, what is the REAL DIFFERENCE between a Touring car and

a Phaeton? Come on people. Someone out there must have the correct

answer. I certainly don't. Lets keep this going until we figure out

the difference.

Paul

[Steve Moskowitz]

Someone check out the Illustrated Dictionary of Automobile Types, lengthy explanation that I do not have time to post.

[Restorer32]

You could have a Packard Phaeton and a Touring on the same wheelbase and the bodies are very similar but definitely different. They also use different top irons and bows. I've reproduced about 20-30 sets of these irons and bows over the years and have never seen a phaeton with jump seats. Several times I've talked to customers who thought they had a phaeton when they actually had a touring. This is true at least from '31 thru '34. I'm talking factory bodies of course.

[pistoncollector]

Steve,

Thanks for the info. Unfortunately I don't have a

copy of the ILLUSTRATED DICTIONARY OF AUTOMOBILE TYPES.

I never heard of the book. But I wish I had a copy. So if

anyone reading this thread does have a copy, can you boil

the answer down to something that won't take to long to put

here on the FORUM? Thanks..............

Paul

[Steve_Mack_CT]

This is interesting - I personally like the term "Tourster" better than either, but I do not think that is a recognized standard body type. A quick look at my literature confirms Ford officially called the open T a Touring model right up to 1927, and changed the 5 passenger open car model to a Phaeton with the release of the A in 1928. While open Fords fit the definitions given above, my bet is this was more to capitolize on the term. Phaetons began showing up in ads for late 20s upper end cars. In this era Ford wanted to embrace style and emulate the pricier cars. I do not know exactly when cars like Dodge or Chevrolet began using the term. Designated model names may have as much to do with the manufacturer looking to present a sporty or contemporary image than with the technical body description.

Not to split hairs, I am curious - does AACA or CCCA draw any distinction? What I mean is, if a Buick is a Phaeton by model designation but not by definition, I don't think there is any class difference other than "Open". I do see how this distinction may make a big difference in terms of value on a Packard or other Classic, but wouldn't literature identify each model? There seems to be a tendancy to call all open 4-door cars of the early Classic era Phaetons, you do not see too many Packard Touring cars advertised in most publications. So, are the manufacturer's specifications or a source like the catolog mentioned above serve as the best guide?

Of course I am at a loss to explain the logic behind the use of the term to name the much newer VW "Phaeton"..

[West Peterson]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not to split hairs, I am curious - does AACA or CCCA draw any distinction? What I mean is, if a Buick is a Phaeton by model designation but not by definition, I don't think there is any class difference other than "Open". I do see how this distinction may make a big difference in terms of value on a Packard or other Classic, but wouldn't literature identify each model? There seems to be a tendancy to call all open 4-door cars of the early Classic era Phaetons, you do not see too many Packard Touring cars advertised in most publications. So, are the manufacturer's specifications or a source like the catolog mentioned above serve as the best guide?</div></div>

No class differentations, but, as you said "open."

The value question would make a difference for a Buick "phaeton" with a comparable car from another make. For instance, a Standard Eight Packard and the high-end Buick Series 90. The Series 90 Buick competed for the market of a Standard Eight Packard, yet the standard eight Packard was available in a true phaeton body as well as a touring. Today, the Buick 90 "phaeton" is probably worth more than the Packard standard eight touring (same body styles, different names), but the Packard standard eight phaeton is worth more than the Buick 90 "phaeton" (same names, different body styles).

That's my opinion.

[Guest tmodelman]

The definition by the Passenger Car Body Division of SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) is qualified in Dyke's Encyclopedia (1923 edition) for the Phaeton body style as follows:

Phaeton (1)

An open-type body with two fixed cross-seats for two or five

passengers. Folding seats in the tonneau for two additional

passengers are sometimes used. The conventional body has four

doors and a phaeton-top with emergency side-curtains that are

removable.

(Footnote) in Dyke's:

(1) The principal reason for recommending the use of the term 'phaeton' instead of 'touring' is that the latter has lost its significance as applying to any particular type of body, as all types are used for touring. The term 'phaeton' is used extensively in Europe, and to a considerable degree in America, in connection with passenger cars; it (touring) (sic) is the name of a horsedrawn prototype; it is inelegant and in a technical sense is not distinctive of any particular type of motor vehicle body.

Motor Age magazine (1920 issue) has many vehicles noted in ads as 'Phaetons', so Phaeton was being used in the early '20's to denote the typical American 5-7 passenger open car. The Ford T continued to use 'touring' to denote the 5 passenger open car, and with the introduction of the new Model A in 1928 the Ford company began use of 'phaeton' to describe that type of open car.

[oldiron]

Gentlemen; to find the clear meaning of, and the distinction between the terms "phaeton" and "touring", one

needs to put themselves into the realm of the "Flat Earth" society, and start where the terms started. That

starting point would be with the horse and carriage, where the terms were originally applied to many genre of

horse pulled carts, wagons, phaetons, and brakes. Thence forward in evolution to the horseless carriage era, where

builders and purveyors of fine bodies excelled not only in the art of creating magnificent coaches,but also in the

creation of eloquent names and definitions and the embodiment thereof.And, then onto the "roaring" twenties and thirties where function had to fit form, and where admen learned their sophist trade while spewing the misused

but sophisticated sounds of the French word, Phaeton against the more plebian word, Touring. Now fellas, I leave the hi-tech discussion to you.

[Dave@Moon]

For what it's worth, here's the definitions given by The Dictionary of Automotive Terms.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <span style="font-weight: bold">phaeton:</span>

An open-type body with two cross seats, it usually accommodates five passengers. A folding windshield, folding weatherproof fabric top and removable side curtains are usually standard equipment. The four-seater was called a double phaeton, and the six-seater or seven-seater was called a triple phaeton. Also see sport and Imperial phaeton.</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <span style="font-weight: bold">touring car:</span>

A vehicle with a body longer than the phaeton style, but very similar to it. It permits the use of auxiliary seats in the rear passenger compartment. It was an open car with seats for four or more passengers. Early models had no side weather protection but later were fitted with detachable side screens and curtains. Made until about 1930.

</div></div>

[Guest De Soto Frank]

Oldiron made a worthwhile point: many of the terms applied to vehicle bodies prior to WW-II originated in the horse-carriage trade in the 18th & 19th Centuries, and quite a few auto-body makers could trace their lineage back to the days of true "horse-power", Fisher Brothers among them.

"Phaeton" is one of those carriage-trade terms for an open carriage, with a folding top, and usually two "bench-seats", although in the horse'n'buggy days, the two seats often faced one another.

Other "horse-drawn" body terms that carried-over into the automobile era included:

"Coup`e" - an enclosed carriage with one seat, housing two or three passengers at most.

"Cabriolet" - a "coup`e" with a folding roof section

"Landau" - A closed body usually capable of seating four, with a folding rear-roof section.

"Coach" - an enclosed body, fixed roof, with permanent windows.

While there were definitely horse-drawn "phaetons", I'm pretty confident that no one referred a "touring carriage" ?

(Have also never heard of a "dual-cowl touring car"...)

The name Phaeton has dignified origins, from the name of the Greek god who drove his sun chariot across the heavens each day... so, an automaker wanting to grant one of their open models some instant panache, may have favored calling their four-door open car a "phaeton", as opposed to the more common "touring car".

Most makers/coachbuilders who specifically named their open car a "Phaeton" were trying to evoke a "sporty" image or suggest something worthy of the upper-crust...

In the movie "The Glenn Miller Story", Glenn's pals make a big deal over Harry Morgan's character "Chummy", getting a "new phaeton", somwehere in the late Twenties...

Dykes makes mention of two "touring cars": one a five-passenger, the second a larger car, usually seven-passenger, w/ jump-seats.

As for vehicles with "folding-tops and roll-up glass windows", those are usually classified as "convertible -(whatever)".

Certainly, manufacturers and marketing people have been guilty of taking liberties with language for years...

Terms such as "Victrola", "Vaseline," and "Kleen-x" which all initially referred to very specific products once upon a time, have now become generic common nouns (stripped of their capitals)...

I believe it was the grumpy caterpillar from Alice in Wonderland who declared: "When I use a word, I choose it to mean exactly what I wish; neither more, nor less." (with apologies to Lewis Carroll)

I imagine that the term "phaeton" will continue to be applied generously...

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The name Phaeton has dignified origins, </div></div>

If you ask me, given the huge degree of overlap implicit in any definition of those 2 terms, I think it boils down to how much you paid or want to charge for the car (either now or in 1922). And, as is often the case, the terms changed over time.

"Touring car" (I gather since I wasn't around then) eventually aquired some of the negative meaning that "station wagon" has today. (Don't forget that it was the most popular body style for about 20 years, roughly 1905-1925.) Even though "touring" brings to mind a rather elegant use of a car, people eventually didn't want to be spending large sums of cash for a Packard with the same body name as a Ford. And thus began (as long as the body style remained in production) a symantics game similar to the one Chrysler now plays with the Dodge (<span style="font-style: italic">Please for the love of God call it a "sport wagon"</span>) Magnum. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

The dignified term "Phaeton" fit that need nicely.

[Guest bkazmer]

Oh dear, I guess I'll feed this too. "Phaeton" is Greek, not French. Phaeton drove Apollo's chariot, so it was a "cool" name for a horse drawn vehicle. And Squares are a subset of Rectangles, not the other way around.

A Touring Sedan generally has a separate side window behind the rear door window, and a built in trunk.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

I know of two models of 2-door phaetons off the top of my head, the 30-31 Ford A (a great bodystyle!) & the Jeepster. They both fit the criteria other than doors. I do not think there is another proper name for this unusual style. I think Jeepster is the last American made pheaton & the Dodge Wayfarer would be the last American roadster?

[oldiron]

Well Gentlemen, if we are going to look to the origins of "phaeton" then let's be correct about it. The word Phaeton,

a noun, is of French origin. The word phaethon,or rather name Phaethon, also a noun, is from both Roman and Greek mythology. He is the son of Helios, the sun god, who used his fathers chariot......yada, yada, yada. you get the point.

So.....the phaeton then is the one that carries people atop a fire spewing dragon.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Oldiron, that would make my '68 Cutlass a phaeton, I believe! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

[MCHinson]

I have resisted as long as I can....

My Model A is a Phaeton because Henry Ford said it was...

If it were a Model T, it would have been a Touring Car... also because Henry Ford said so...

<img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I don't need any other reason... Henry said it and that is good enough for me! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[R W Burgess]

Don't guess we'll ever be able to sell this fellow a Chevy!!!!! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

W.

[MCHinson]

Actually my daily driver is a Chevrolet Tahoe... but I do seem to like my old cars to be Fords.... <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Guest De Soto Frank]

"My Model A is a Phaeton because Henry Ford said it was..."

"...Look-out people, look-out folks!

None of your sarcastic jokes,

Henry's made a Lady out of Lizzie..."

"She's not like Calvin Coolidge:

She's a girl who likes her fun,

She can't imagine anyone, "that doesn't choose to run!"

( Lyrics from "Henry's Made a Lady out of Lizzie")

<img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Ford owner's definition -

Henry (any color as long as it is black) = Touring Car

Edsel (lets make it a baby Lincoln, dad) = Phaeton

The rest of you guys are on your own! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[OldsDoug]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've always understood phaetons to have no roll up windows. I guess that would be the difference between one and a conv sedan which has roll up windows.

A.J. </div></div>

Right, at least as far as Fords go... a friend has a '36 Ford Convertible Sedan and those were the designations that Ford used. Both were four-door cars. I _think_ the two doors were called roadster (side curtains) and convertible (roll-up side windows).

[oldiron]

Hey Steve, your cutlass is certainly a phaeton in that regard. By the way, way back when that cutlass was new, I drove one non-stop from Pheonix Arizona to Tuscon, then all the way to El Paso, so that I could make 'muster' one morning without being late late. Yes,it does spew fire..........enjoy it while you can,Regards, Oldiron

[Ivan Saxton]

Perhaps the difference is in the mind or the program of the maker. For instance, my first car, rebuilt under the wattle tree, was a 1927 Cadillac which the catalogue or equipment specifications which General Motors Holden kindly photocopied for me, was a four passenger Phaeton. It had wooden wheels, a windscreen which folded down flat from a decorative cast bronze base; and the back of the body finished fairly vertical and straight accross in front of a flat tray with cast bars, the mounting for a steel trunk. Then there was a carrier for one or two spare tyres/rims. The 7 passenger Touring was much longer in the rear section with a rounded back on the body tub. It had the two folding seats, and I believe the body at the rear seat may have been wider to give more room for three adult passengers. These were both on 138" wheelbase. The windsreen had fixed posts, and did not fold flat usually; but the nice widscreen was obviously an option because a man I know here has such a car that has not been altered.

The 4 passenger Sport Phaeton was similar body to the Phaeton I had. But it had a folding "dual cowl", wire wheels with two spares mounted in wells in the front fenders so it was a bit less convenient to access the engine. (Styling is paramount, of course). Wheelbase was 138. Please forgive more detail that I may not have committed to memory, because I traded my car and the paperwork went with it 41 years ago. I believe the 4 passenger jobs had a fold-down armrest, but my car had no seats left when I got it. I also impaired the originality by fitting wire wheels from an ex-sedan tow-truck. There was also a 5 passenger Touring listed, which lacked the folding seats and had a shorter body, but may well have been on the shorter 132" wheelbase.

L-head and 6 cyl Mercers also had options which had different titles. My Series 4 is a "Sporting". There are no folding seats, but shallow storeage compartments, wire wheels were standard, and the body may have been marginally lower and shorter, particularly in early years. Tourings at the same time were supposed to have wooden wheels, but this often varied with order, particularly at the end of the line with the Series 6.

I guess if we want to be pedantic we call them what the makers called them. A couple of the best references are the January (Show) issues of MoToR, and those little Clymer books Cars of (whatever year).

In Australia, the general public at the time rationalised it all, and called every one "tourer"s.

Ivan Saxton

[Aanderson44]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can anyone give me the text book definiton in use during the 1930s for a Phaeton and a Touring car? What are the differences between the two body styles, if any?

Paul </div></div>

In all this, I think it's well to remember that automakers used the term "Touring Car" on several different styles of bodies over the years. For example, pre-1910 (and even a few years after that), automobiles (usually luxury cars) having closed passenger compartments, with open-air front seat for the chauffeur, and large luggage racks on the roof, were often termed "Touring Car" by their manufacturer or coachbuilder. "Touring" as a descriptive term was also applied to otherwise conventional 2- and 4-dr sedans, certainly in the mid-late 30's, for some reason known best by the Madison Avenue types writing up ad copy. And, who could forget Mercury's first foray into the 4dr hardtop arena in 1956? You got it! Mercury Phaeton (with a fixed steel top and rollup windows).

It's mostly advertising and marketing hype, IMHO--as carmakers tried to evoke something out of the past--in the 30's, for example, the horsedrawn era was just a generation and a half back in time--and Phaeton was a distinct open carriage design.

Art Anderson

[Steve_Mack_CT]

This has been interesting to me, as I have seen some large Classics (primarily Packards) in my area described as Pheatons, but they clearly have an elongated body and seat 7, not ugly by any stretch (no pun intended!) but I can see where a pheaton design would make a big difference in terms of value, since design and balance is really most of what determines a Classic, IMHO.

Earlier in this thread I mentioned the term "Tourster" - I did not make that up, I have seen it referenced on some Classics, I can recall at least a couple Duesenbergs called "Toursters",one here in CT - is this a bodymaker's term, or just not really in use? The local Duesenberg "Tourster" does not have jump seats,if I remember correctly.

Thought I would provoke some thought since the horse pulling the phaeton seems to have been beaten completetly dead by now.. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

[Guest icetimothy]

Can anyone give me the text book definiton in use during the 1930s for a Phaeton and a Touring car? What are the differences between the two body styles, if any?

Ok I think you all have to help me out! 1929 Marmon made a 4 passenger Speedster! Is this just another name for a Phaeton/ Touring/ 4- passenger speedster!

Paul

thanks

[Guest icetimothy]

What the heck a a 4 passenger speedster ? Compared to a Phaeton or Touring

[Friartuck]

I believe a major difference between the Phaeton/Touring and a Speedster is the wheelbase. Phaetons are on a longer wheelbase whereas a Speedster is on a shorter wheelbase, much like a Roadster or Runabout. Also the Speedster would have the front and rear seat areas closer together and depending on the body builder, a body that is lower and narrower than normal. Given the difference in body contours, a special windshield would likely be fabricated. A Speedster may have a lowered chassis. A good example is the 1930 Packard 734 Speedster.

[padgett]

And how would you seperate 2 seat cars that have a disappearing roof covered by the body from those having exposed roofs often with a fabric cover. The latter could be a convertible or cabriolet but must the former not have roll up windows to be a roadster ?

[West Peterson]

Generically, the disappearing top doesn't really change the designation between roadster, convertible coupe, phaeton or convertible sedan. If their are side windows, it would be a convertible coupe, cabriolet convertible sedan. If no side windows, it would be a roadster or phaeton or touring.

[Guest prs519]

I think many laypeople, myself included, go with Henry Ford, calling pre-28 four door open cars tourings. Post 1927 became phaetons in most ads and such. Oddly that seems to increase their value over a touring. Note that production techniiques changed so that solid bodies were much more practical to keep the weather off, mostly arriving in 1928. This probably has much to do with the scarcitiy of post 1928 phaetons.