Senior Judging

[Guest 29LQ]

I recently requested my senior judging sheet so I might learn what I need to work on for the Grand National Meet. But, the sheet had no explaination why deductions were taken. Why can't we have that info, or have it explained by the Chief judge at the meet, so that if we disagree (and have info to prove it) or wish to correct deductions for a future meet we can do so correctly instead of guessing. I think the intent of all of this is to have correct cars and information. New members that are trying to learn find this very frustrating.

[ex98thdrill]

You're not the first to complain about it, and won't be the last. The best advice that I could give you is get involved with the judging system so you can learn their train of thought. I've argued this point for a couple of years now, and to be honest with you, I found that I got farther p*_#ing in the wind.

I don't like it either, because if the owner is right, and the judge is wrong, the car owner still gets screwed.

[Guest John W. Harvey]

In my humble opinion, I think the AACA judging system is one of the best. It is not a perfect world and we definetely do not have perfect judges.... or perfect owners. As a judge, I feel more comfortable doing my job fairly and to the best of my knowledge and ability knowing that it is going on paper and not going to be debated on the show field for all discuss and/or argue. It could and would get ugly at every meet. This is not the PR the AACA or car owners need.

I agree that the best way to become more familiar with your vehicle and its possible shortcomings is to get involved in the judging process. If not actively a judge on the showfield, at least attend the judging schools and read up on the judging manual.

Now that you know what areas might be of concern to the judge(s), you might want to have a knowledgeable friend and/or judge look at your vehicle and discuss what they see or don't see.

I have 3 Monte Carlos......... I know just about everything I need to know about my 3 Montes. I know their strengths and I know their faults. However, I cannot say the same about any other vehicle that I have judged! I and the others just do the best we can with what we know and have learned.

[Shop Rat]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now that you know what areas might be of concern to the judge(s), you might want to have a knowledgeable friend and/or judge look at your vehicle and discuss what they see or don't see.</div></div>

An excellent suggestion as a start. And their best bet is to find an AACA trained judge that is familiar with the form and how points are taken off and have them take the copy of the sheet and look in the specific areas that are marked and tell them how what they see relates to the areas that are marked as where points were deducted.

And they should make sure they have factory documentation handy at all shows. And let the Captain know that they are the owner of the car and that they have their documentation with them for any questions the team might have. If there is anything about their car that they feel might be a trouble spot as far as being different from the norm,they should tell the Captain that and that they have the information to prove it is correct.

We are not supposed to take points off if we are not 100% positive that an item is incorrect if that is the issue rather than condition.

And no owner should ever ask, or have someone else ask, an AACA judge to reveal what their score was or what points were taken off. This is absolutely against the rules as they are now.

[Guest 29LQ]

Well some of you think I'm attacking judges. I have judged at local meets so I know the 'rules'. That is not my point. I'm requesting more useful information. Not on the field, but in written form, when requested. Much as it is now. No phones calls, no names, but by the team that did the judging. Getting another opinion would probably confuse the issue even more. I'm also talking, not about the local 4th of July meet but a Senior Meet. We put alot of effort, time and expense getting ready for that level and don't like getting the elementary school response "its against the rules" when we talk about change. Maybe that kind of thinking is one reason the AACA is having diffuculty attracting new members.

Have a nice day.

[ex98thdrill]

John, everytime I get involved in this discussion, it gets heated. I understand that you should know about your vehicle, but a lot of times the information on your vehicle isn't out there.

I have been through the route of going to the library and doing the research, and I've been through the route of having someone point something out that is wrong. If you go to the library and nothing is there, what is the owner supposed to do?

You may own Monte Carlos, I have seen your white 74?, it is a nice car, but not every car has the documentation that is as easy to find as your Monte Carlos. But even though you may know Monte Carlos, you may be doing someone an injustice if they have a Model 'A' and you're judging it. Because you don't always judge vehicles that you're familiar with, that's where the problem lies in the judging system. If the owners knew what was being deducted and why, they might be able to prove that they are correct.

I know what is taught in judging schools about "when in doubt don't deduct" but sometimes you get someone out there who doesn't want to follow that simple rule, and the owner suffers for it.

My father and I own a lot of orphan cars, and the information isn't out there. I know in the case of the old pickup, the only information that the Library has on it, is what I gave to them back in November (which wasn't much).

I know I've said this before, I will still bring vehicles to meets, but I don't have to like the judging system (which I don't). I have been in the situation where you get the judging sheets and it shows the areas where points are deducted. The one time where we got the sheet back, there were a few things that my dad and I knew what was wrong, but then there were other areas where we looked at it and scratched our heads because we didn't know, and to the best of our knowledge and documentation, we were right.

I still agree with the author of the original thread on this post, and as I told him, he'd get more results P*_#ing in the wind because it'll never change.

Of course with the judging system, you can still get your awards, but because of the point spread, you lose. It would be nice even if a person knew that they had the points to get the award that they wanted, but got stomped by a 400 point car. I think a 400 point car is what bit us in Buffalo at the AGNM, but we'll never know, and no one will ever tell us. We've taken that car and done everything that we can physically do with it. Of course there are areas that we don't like, but the only reason those areas are the way they are, is due to the vehicles' rarity and inablility to find the parts needed to make the car nicer.

[ex98thdrill]

29LQ, I think you're right and I agree, but I'm just saying that I've already argued this point too, and gotten nowhere with it.

[Guest 29LQ]

Thanks for the replys folks. Just trying to keep things lively. Also, got to build up my 'posts' numbers to catch up to you old guys. I also hear you can trade them in for meet points.

[ex98thdrill]

29LQ,

What I have found that has worked very well for me is to go to judging school, get into judging, and learn the system. Although you'll probably never agree with the system, at least you can understand it.

Currently my father and I are building an old Ford firetruck. Until we get it done, I have not only been involved in AACA, but I've joined SPAAMFAA (an antique fire truck club), The Early Ford V8 Club, and I've been judging firetrucks at the meets that we've been going to. By doing this, I have gathered as much information as I can, and I've also picked the brains of the guys who know fire trucks, and old Fords, as well as judged with some of the guys who judge the firetrucks. Does this mean that we'll be successfull at the meets? No. But at least I've done everything that could be done.

If you can join the National Clubs specific to your vehicle, gather all the information that you can through that club as well as the AACA library, and get out and start judging the class that your car belongs in, you should be able to get your AGNM providing that your car is correct and the restoration wasn't sloppy. Of course if a car beats you by 5 points, you stand a chance at losing.

In closing, understand that you cannot judge the class your car is in if your car is on the field, so it might require you having to leave your car home if you want to judge your class. Even if you put in to judge your class, there still will be no guarantees that you'll still judge the class that you asked for.

[Guest 29LQ]

ex98thdrill

All very good information. At present I belong to the VCCA (for the 29 Chevy Truck I'm restoring), MARC, MAFCA (for my 31 Ford Roadster). I also belong to the local AACA, which hosted the Glidden Tour last year. So you see I am involved and have other club meet experience which generated my judging question. So when an AACA judge deducts for; Carb, valve stems, rear bumper I'd like to know more because they were not deductions at the MARC meet when the Roadster won the Marc of Excellance. In either case it won the Senior so no harm - no foul I quess.

As you know this restoring hobby does become an obsession where you want everything correct every time.

Thanks again.

[Shop Rat]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...and don't like getting the elementary school response "its against the rules" when we talk about change......</div></div>

For now, until the rules are changed, that will be the response that you get. And is it not an elementary school response. They are the rules as stated by the AACA National. As judges we have to abide by those rules.

You as a member are free to mount a campaign to have them changed. I am sure that there are others that agree with you.

I will tell you this, at shows we as a team may judge just a few cars and as many as twenty-some if they are short-handed. We volunteer to do this, get there at our own expense, stand on our feet in whatever the weather is. And for as long as it takes to do the job to the best of our ability as a team which includes turning in the paperwork to the fine folks in Admin. after standing in line for our turn. Many have to take off for home when they are released from duty because they work. We honestly do not have time to debate points with owners. It could take hours with some people. The AACA has been doing this for a lot of years. I am sure they have valid reasons for the way they do what they do.

[DizzyDale]

Dear 29LQ,I would get Model A club documentation that spells out the areas which were in question by AACA.NOBODY on the planet more as HENRY BUILT IT than the Model A,Early Ford V-8 club,then again your car can have some deductions and still win a SENIOR.You make that Model A CORRECT for the single marque club and you should be good to go at any AACA meet FOREVER.Sounds like a GREAT car,remember its supposed to be FUN.diz :

[Guest 29LQ]

Not to keep this old subject going, but once again I am not faulting judges. Also, I don't think I've ever seen 20 cars in one class at a Senior Meet. But, thanks for all the replys - and it is/I do have fun.

[Guest John W. Harvey]

29LQ,

What is a "Senior Meet"? The AACA holds national meets where several levels of awards can be won............

John

[Jim Bollman]

You may not have seen 20 Senior cars in one class but often the judges do Juniors, Seniors and Preservation. If every point deducted needed a sentence explaining why,it would add a lot of time to judging a class. I understand you only want it for senior cars (they usually have fewer problems), but as soon as we do it for Senior cars the Juniors will want it because how else can they be Senior cars. It isn't the job of the judges to teach you how to restore your car only see if you did it. I agree with others, sign up for judging school, at least stay with it for apprentice judging, you will learn a lot. The hands on judging schools that are done on the field show day are very informative for details.

If the points you are trying to figure out are 1 and 2 point deduction they are probably not for something that is incorrect (usually bigger points and usually discussed among the team and the team captain). A small point deduction in one area is usually poor workmanship, poor cleaning/maintenance, or a defect after restoration.

[Shop Rat]

Well said Jim. On all points.

One point can also be for a mismatched headlight, a name plate on the front (Jim and Martha's Mustang) and/or an after market frame around one or both plates/license plates. A filthy radio antenna. I have seen a ton of those. It would be so easy to give them a quick wipe down. And I am talking grime, not one day of driving to a show.

There is a thread on this forum that I started and lots of people added to that goes into Little Things That Can Hurt You as far as points.

We have a 1963 1/2 Ford Falcon Sprint convertible. There are several items under the hood that are chromed that aren't on the standard Falcon Futura, which is what most people have seen. Air cleaner top, the cap on the oil dip stick, valve covers, oil breather cap. Once it is ready to bring to AACA National shows Bill, or I, will have the necessary factory documentation to prove that those items are correct. At local shows people thought we had modified it. They were very surprised to learn it was that way from the factory. Most people have never seen under the hood of one. Many have not even seen a Sprint at all.

Anyone that has a car that is different from the "normal everyday, seen a thousand of them" cars needs to have their documentation handy and make sure the Captain knows who you are and where you are standing to help them with questions.

[ex98thdrill]

Susan,

I'm not saying that you have to sit there and explain everything on every single car. But if someone asks you after judging is over, where is the crime in telling the owners the truth? If the owners want to know, they've earned the right to know what's wrong. If a person wins an award and wants to know if their car is good enough to win at the next level, they should be able to find out.

If someone requests their judging sheets after the meet is over, where is the crime in putting the areas and point totals of the deductions?

The rules are the rules and I'm not fighting over it. My dad and I both judge, we follow the rules, and both of us agree that we don't agree with the rule. I have seen instances where judges will knitpick a car, yet don't have anything in their own collections that would even come close to the cars that they are knitpicking. Yes the judges are doing it for free and paid money to get to the meet, but then again you have these people who have invested thousands of dollars in restoring their cars, the trailers to haul them, and the trucks to pull the trailers. Then they're lucky if they're getting 15 miles per gallon to haul their car to a meet, and then can't get the courtesy of getting an honest answer to their questions. There are times where the owners are right.

Last year my dad and I spent 4 days on the road and over $1,800 in gas to get to the AGNM and back home. Yes we got our awards, but for someone to say that the judges give up so much to get to these meets, doesn't cut it with me. Yes you need judges at the shows, but if the cars aren't there, you still don't have a show. In simpler terms, when it comes to car owners and judges, neither one is more important than the other.

As for the ordinary everyday cars, the documentation is available. The ones that aren't common are the ones you can't find parts to put them together, or the documentation to prove authenticity. In simpler terms, the owners of the orphan cars have two strikes against them. Currently this old fire truck that we're doing has been a walk in the park because when we need something, we can go to the Early Ford V8 website, or pick up the phone and call Dennis Carpenter.

[Shop Rat]

Ex, Since I didn't make the rules I can't say for sure why they are the way they are. Only someone like Steve M could answer that for the club.

I know that at the local show level (not AACA shows) we have heard of folks that almost became violent with the meet chairman because they thought their car should take a first place trophy. They called one friend of ours at home and threatened him. He finally took some old trophies and put together the most horrible looking assembly of parts and had a plaque made that said it was the best (whatever it was) of the show. That shut them up.

There is no way around it, there are problems with the system. But until there are paid, professional judging teams that never judge anything but the vehicles they are certified for I'm just not sure there is a way around errors. You have judged, you know what a long day it can be under the best of circumstances. Picture that say, five people out of fifteen owners in a group of cars get their judging sheet and have issues with the way it was judged. Now the team has to go back and re-judge five cars that they have already done. And some of the cars may not be judged any differently. Some might based on looking at documentation.

As you know, we are told not to nit-pick, don't let points slide that should be taken off, ask if there is ANY question about features, do not take off points for items where the team is not 100% sure, the Captain can accept or dismiss the opinion of the owner (that is in the rule book), judge each car on it's own merit, judge fairly and evenly. Beyond that there isn't an answer right now.

Maybe the time has come for people that want it changed to put together a plan that would work. But also as you know, lots of judges have to leave at a reasonable time to be back to work. Vacation time is precious and they can't afford an extra day to hang around to answer questions. Maybe there needs to be a way to put short notes, or boxes to check such as condition, color, damage etc., as to why points were taken off. Many times I do that when I feel it should be explained.

Anyone else got any idea about how to go about letting owners know how their car did without making the judges stay an extra day and have to deal with some people that can be less than pleasant? MOST owners are great. But all it takes is one person with a penchant for being difficult for the sport of it and you will see people drop out of being judges.

[Barry Wolk]

I will never again show my car in a straight points-based competition. In my opinion a judge would have to be omniscient to know every thing about every car.

I've gone full circle in the Concours hobby. I sat on the hill at Meadow Brook for 21 years watching the cars go by. Five years ago we were sitting and watching the fabulous cars get their awards and I said I'd like to have a show car. Four years ago I found the Mark II Convertible on E-bay. We have since competed in 14 Conours and taken may awards including some top honors. Last year we judged for the first time and I now sit on the board of two Concours. I'm back to sitting on the hill at Meadow Brook.

The judging that I did was at an AACA-based event but allowances were made for Concours style emotional additions. I found that to be to my liking. I much prefer Concours style judging as I like to hear people say nice things about my car.

Can't wait 'till there's a class for shiny aluminum trailers!

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Personally, I enjoy the AACA Judging system as it forces me to do my homework and own work to show the car as it left the factory.

Concours events are focused on appearance more than correct vehicle construction from the factory. (Yes, I showed at Concours events in the past. The judges asked that I close the trunk for judging, not for alignment, but, appearance. They did not even look at the engine or under-carriage.)

With the AACA Judging system, I have always taken the approach: "If I see something wrong, then, a judge can see something wrong".

I received the "highlighted" judging sheet in 1998, the first time I showed at an AACA National Meet (Received a 2nd Junior that year). Took the sheet to the car on a quiet day and looked at every area highlighted. Worked over the Winter fixing many things I saw that needed attention. It was quite easy to see improvement needed on every highlighted area. Really enjoyed this system as it created "the hunt" scenario. Received another 2nd Junior in 1999, however, with fewer "highlighted" areas. Then, after having fun within the process of elimination, received a 1st Junior in 2000 and coasted up the ladder since. "Felt more satisfaction via the AACA System, than, if some judge, or, club offical would do my work for me by pointing out every deduction".

Personally, I would not have enjoyed "the hunt" if a judge told me what was wrong, or, how many points were deducted. It is really a simple mission statement of the AACA: "...as it left the factory."

Our system is far from perfect, however, it is a highly respected system within the hobby worldwide.

Just my 2 cents and my experience with the AACA...

Regards,

Peter J. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Bhigdog]

I agree with Peter. I've had cars in concours. they are fun and I appreciate being invited and I've won awards. But they do seem kind of "fluffy" compared to the steely eyed judging that goes on at the Grand Nats. I guess there are flaws in the AACA system but I really don't think argueing on the show field is a viable option. If a judge asks a question I answer as best I can, document if I can, and hope for the best. It's worked for me........Bob

[novaman]

I've seen one ugly situation. Most AACA people don't know about it but it cost some friendships. It invovled a team deputy, field judge, and the car owner and his wife all which had been friends at one time. Short story, the car didn't get the award it was going for. The team captian happened to turn in the paperwork at admin that day unknowingly, to the car owner's wife. She told him what points and where they were taken and he was hot!! Some not very nice things were comunicated among them and to other people. It was a nice car but had a couple issues with condition and one incorrect item. Unfortunely, enough to keep it from winning.

I believe this is one of the main reasons AACA does not give out the scores. It stops the personal attacks on the judges and cuts down on some of the bad mouthing about the judges to others.

I just happened to look at a 1980 judges manual. No where in there does it say anything about divugling a car's score. my 1991 manual does. So I'd take it somewhere in that 11 years the onwers knowing the score became an issue. I do have another maunal from within that 11 years that I can't locate at the moment. Curious when that rule appeared in the judges manual.

[Shop Rat]

That would be a very hard situation to be in. Ethically she should not have said a word to her husband about the points and the score, just the same as she should not reveal information to any other owner about their car. She should have told him to ask for a copy of the areas where points were taken off and he would have figured it out.

It should be a given that the people that are trusted to work in Admin. don't talk about the scores. What goes in that room stays in that room. For nine years Jean Allinder traveled with us to shows after her husband and daughter died. For more years than that she worked in Admin. She never once violated the trust the AACA had in her.

[novaman]

Personally, as soon as she saw it was the class her husband's car was in she should have gotten someone else to handle that paperwork. There is no reason those recieving paperwork from the teams need to do it for the team judging the class the husband car is in, IMHO. I do realize at some point futher up the chain that senerio is pretty much unavoidable as the number of people doing that job gets smaller.

[ex98thdrill]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">MOST owners are great. But all it takes is one person with a penchant for being difficult for the sport of it and you will see people drop out of being judges</div></div>

Very true Susan, but on the flip side, most judges are great, but all it takes is one and the whole scenario can easily be reversed. Car owners can turn people off from coming out and judging, and judges can turn car owners off from bringing their cars out. Not all owners understand the system. I understand the system because I have taken the initiative to learn it. Even though I don't agree with it, I at least know it. This whole issue requires a very delicate balance to both sides.

Never would I suggest having to stay an extra day. I know what you mean about spending the time judging because I like to get it done so I can either get back to our car, or look at the other cars. As for others, I'm sure a lot of them want to get back on the road so that they can get home at a decent time. With that in mind, I don't want to explain it either. But after the meet is over, I see no problems with someone getting their scores and where the points were deducted and why.

************************************************

Peter, I understand where you're coming from. There are times where you know where your deficiencies are, but then there may be an item that you've overlooked, and because of the rules, no one is telling you what or where you've overlooked. Being that I don't know about Triumphs, I could never be be able to look at your car and point out what is wrong with it if you needed advice from me. Without knowing what the results are, the car owner has no idea if they've overlooked something, or if a deduction is taken incorrectly.

In the case of your Triumph, I have no idea where the faults are with that car. In the case of our cars, you may or may not know what's wrong with them. In the case of our woodie, the glass cutter had some fine scratches in the edge of the glass where he made the cuts. Prior to the last AGNM we took every piece of glass out of that car and paid the money to have all new glass put back in. Now if there is something else wrong that car, we didn't know about it, and it would be nice to know what it is, so that we could make the corrections. If the deduction was incorrectly taken, and they didn't ask, it would be nice to know so that we can point the item out to the team captain the next time we bring a car out. Of course there are some things that can't be fixed, and we managed to salvage what was on it as good as we could get it. If the judges in Buffalo noticed the scratches in the glass, we could've lost 10 points points if they took one point off for every piece of glass on that car. If there was a deduction for something that we don't know about, it would be nice to be given the information so we can make the corrections before we load a car up and haul it 1,600 miles to a show. If we lost at Buffalo only because of the windows, then I know we won't lose again due to the glass because it was fixed. If we lost because of something else, then we still don't know, and we stand a chance at losing again.

**********************************************************

David, I fully agree that the person who accepted the judging sheet on her husband's vehicle, should've done the ethical thing and excused herself from scoring the entire class, notified someone else, and done something else.

**************************************************

Please understand that the very first time we brought out the old pickup (Johnstown, 2001) we got a First Junior. But I think the only reason we got it was because our truck was still nice enough to earn the points. Had it not been for some judges (who did not judge our class) talking to us after judging was over, we might have never gotten our Senior. These people were the ones who pointed stuff out to us that we didn't know about, and because of them, we made corrections. An example of that was we showed up with a rubber mat in the bed to protect the bed from scraches. We had the spark plugs silver when the bases were supposed to be black, we had zip ties around the wire harness to keep the wiring looking neat and organized, etc. After these people took the time with us, we listened, we learned, and we fixed. Because of these people, we have a 1st AGNM plate the front of it that we probably wouldn't have gotten had these people not taken the time to educate us. Most people who bring out their vehicles to an AACA meet for the first time know nothing about the judging process, the library, etc. Without the education, these people get left standing there without having a clue what happened. Now that I know the judging system, you can gaurantee that if I ever catch the interior judge who judged that truck at Johnstown who laid down on our running boards and floorboards looking under dash of our truck will have some serious prostate problems if I ever catch him doing it again.

[Shop Rat]

Ex, I can sure understand how someone would want to know exactly how their car was judged. Especially if they are new to the car and new to having it judged.

A couple years ago, I think it was at Greenville, there was a very nice guy there. First time out to have his car judged. I was the Captain so I showed up early to do a head check and see who was there and who wasn't. When I was done the man approached me and introduced himself and told me it was his first time out at an AACA show and could I give him some hints on what he should do. I gave him the usual thing about how we would come up and greet him and tell him we were ready to judge his car and if he would step back it would make the job easier and we could do a good job. He did exactly that. He was close enough incase we needed him but not hovering. When we were done for the day I went back with Bill and handed the guy my judge's manual from the previous year that I had with me. There weren't any changes in it that would have affected him. He was so grateful and I know he got a first junior. His car was very nice.

At every show every judge is "the AACA" to the folks there with cars. The lasting impression that we leave should be the best it can be.

By the way, loved the comment about the interior judge and the problems they will have if you run across them again.

[ex98thdrill]

You're right Susan. What the judges do paints the impression of what AACA is to others. If we leave a bad impression, we stand a chance at losing people. If we leave a good impression, we stand a chance of gaining people.

After taking three different vehicles through the awards system in the last five years, we are very much in tune with the car owners. With any luck, by the end of this year, we will have a fourth vehicle entering the system, and two of them will have gone as far as they can go.

At Greensburg last May there was a guy who had a '57 Chevy there going for a First Junior. It was the first time he ever brought a car to a National Meet, and he was new to AACA. The problem is that he showed up with fuzzy dice, discount store floor mats, fender skirts, a front license plate with his name airbrushed on it, and chrome valve stem caps. Before judging my dad and I helped the owner get rid of the dice, plate, and floor mats. After getting rid of that stuff, we helped him take off the fender skirts without scratching the car, and then we "acquired" four of the correct valve stem caps off of a contractor's job trailer that was parked nearby. Neeldless to say, the man got his first junior, and he thanked us for our help. Rather than let someone hang, we helped him make corrections prior to judging. Had we not helped him, and he not gotten his award, he might've never known unless someone else told him because unless you get a judging manual, judging results aren't specified. Being that the car was a '57 Chevy, there are a lot of those out there, and that is a tough class to compete in. Those items that we helped him get off of the car could've cost him his award.

As for that interior judge, I was not happy the day that it happened. Now that I know the system, I know it isn't right, and I am beyond being unhappy . At this point it was not only the interior judge crossing the line, but it was also a Team Captain who wasn't paying attention. But it won't happen again. If it does, both the interior judge and the Team Captain will find themselves in a world of hurt.

...but I won't be like someone I knew that once threw a guy in the river who was being disrespectfull to his car

[Stan Kulikowski]

I usually stay out of these discussions because I'm usually viewed as a the "know-it-all" youngster that doesn't know how the world works. But since I started judging, I can't let this subject drop.

There are issues with how the scores are handled. For example, my 73 Ford suffers from the "correct tires are not available syndrome." I approached Universal Tire and Coker for letters stating that the correct tires were not available. This letter sufficed for documentation to award the car a Senior award. Fast forward to the AGNM at Buffalo in 2004 and I received a 3rd Junior. I provided the documentation from Universal Tire and a Coker Catalog (they did not provide a letter) showing that the correct bias-ply tires were not available. When I requested my judging sheet after the meet, the tires were still marked as a deduction. I could not get an explanation of the reason for the deduction. The tires, although radials, are new and in good condition and all 5 match. The only conclusion that I can draw is that the Team Captain rejected the documentation. Even the door jamb sticker that indicated radials has been rejected because my window sticker indicates bias ply at past shows. This is a real slap in the face when one of the cars that was awarded a GN Award had 5 radials installed on a car that the bias-ply's are readily available.

Situations like this are frustrating to car owners. Fred Young has done a good job of revising the judging schools and this year the judging sheets. I think that one addition could be a check box for workmanship, condition, and authenticity. When an owner requested his sheet, the deduction would be clear. If the deduction was taken for authenticity, the owner now knows that documentation is needed for that item. I know that this doesn't fix all situations but I think it would make things easier for most car owners.

Just my $0.02 ... And I will be bringing two cars to Dover ... I haven't given up as I just found more radial tire documentation from Ford for the 73.

[Shop Rat]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Even the door jamb sticker that indicated radials has been rejected because my window sticker indicates bias ply at past shows.</div></div>

What is the window sticker that you are talking about? The one with the VIN number on it?

[Stan Kulikowski]

The window sticker has a list of all of the options that were on the car. This would have been installed in the window of a car that was sitting on the lot. Since my grandfather ordered the car, the sticker was never installed.

[Shop Rat]

Oh, okay that one. Now it makes perfect sense.

Most people don't have those.

And is it that the sticker on the door jam and the window sticker do not match as to the options?

[novaman]

May sound like a dumb question but, your radial tire tires, are they the correct size for the '73?

[Barry Wolk]

Sorry to butt in, but one of the main reasons I won't show my car in a point judged show is radial tires. I drive my cars to shows within 5 hours. I'm building the "Toybox" trailer for distant shows.

As I put 2,000 mile a year on the Mark II I thought it prudent to install modern tires. Granted, bias-ply tires are still used in the trailer industry, but certainly not on passenger cars. The bias-ply tires used on trailers do a great job at doing one thing; that's going in a straight line. Cornering is not a radial tire's long suit. Also take into consideration that there has been no R & D on rbias-ply tires in 50 years and I had all the information I needed.

Big, ponderous, cars fare the worst with bias ply tires. I've driven my car with and without and I've driven other Mark IIs with bias-ply and there is a world of difference. Even if it is just a perceived level of comfort, I believe, radials should be allowed under all conditions.

I guess I have a problem with the "That's the way we've always done it and that's the way we'll always do it." when it comes to radial tires as a judging issue.

If one does decide to install radials I would advise them to put them on new wheels. I had a huge problem with losing hubcaps on my Mark II. The car also made a cacaphony of creaking noises rolling at low speed. It was almost embarassing.

When the previous owner put radials on my car he installed a 1/4" spacer so the tire would clear the upper ball joint. I knew I wanted to get rid of the spacers as soon as possible. I contacted Coker Tire and told them I wanted wheels with a custom backset and they provided them at no extra charge.

When the new wheels were installed with the original Coker tires the noise was eliminated and I haven't even had a loose hubcap in over 3,000 miles. My evidence may be anecdotal but there's one more piece of information. Wheels made for radial tires are about 30% heavier. Go figure.

I personally believe that radial tire allowance is healthy for the hobby. I believe it would create more drivers out of trailer queens.

Rant off.

[Shop Rat]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I personally believe that radial tire allowance is healthy for the hobby. I believe it would create more drivers out of trailer queens.

Rant off. </div></div>

It boils down to this simple point. Money.

There are people who will spend the money to get the correct tires, or as correct as possible, to have the correct bias ply tires for showing. And they have a second set of tires, radials, for regular driving.

And there are people that don't want to spend the extra cash for a set of show tires so they want the rules changed.

Look at all the years people drove on bias ply tires. It is not that they are unsafe.

When we bought our Falcon Sprint it came from the former owner with radials that he put on it. We will keep those as "driver" tires. But when the time comes for it to be shown at AACA shows we will pony up the money for correct tires, well as correct as we can since the absolutely correct ones are not available for this car at this time. And if the current radials go bad we will spend the money for new ones to save wear and tear on the show tires.

The focus of the AACA is keeping the cars original. Yes, some safety items have been allowed like turn signals on cars that were not equipped with them from the factory. But so far no one has been able to make the case that radials are a safety item.

[Restorer32]

Radial tires should be allowed for "safety reasons".

Disc brakes should be allowed for "safety reasons".

Halogen headlights should be allowed for "safety reasons".

Sealed batteries should be allowed for "safety reasons".

CB radios, On Star and GPS should be allowed for "safety reasons".

Higher HP engines on brass cars should be allowed for "safety reasons".

Overdrives should be allowed for "safety reasons".

Tinted glass should be allowed for "safety reasons".

Power steering should be allowed for "safety reasons".

At what point does the experience of driving an antique car become so divorced from what it was actually like to drive an old car "when it was built" as to totally change the hobby?

Ever been to Williamsburg? Beautiful place, interesting historically but certainly not a true representation of what life was like in Colonial times. Do you want the "Disney World" experience of driving a vintage auto or do want an experience that closely approximates what it was actually like to drive "back in the day"?

If restoration, preservation and adherence to period authenticity is what this hobby is about then allowances for things like radial tires etc. should be approached with caution. Street rods are for those folks who want their cars to look like antique cars but drive and handle like new cars. Different strokes for different folks.

If you want a trophy from a club dedicated to the preservation and appreciation of antique motor vehicles then you should not be upset if that club enforces its rules. "The objective of AACA judging is to evaluate an antique vehicle which has been restored to the same state as when the dealer received the vehicle from the factory." Pretty simple actually.

[D Binger]

Bravo Restorer 32, well said

[color:\\"blue\\"]

If you want a trophy from a club dedicated to the preservation and appreciation of antique motor vehicles then you should not be upset if that club enforces its rules. "The objective of AACA judging is to evaluate an antique vehicle which has been restored to the same state as when the dealer received the vehicle from the factory." Pretty simple actually.

What folks don?t seem to understand here is that AACA judges RESTORED vehicles. The judging system is set up to judge vehicles the way they came from the factory. If you want trophies then you should not drive them. If you do drive them except the fact that you are going to loose points for chips, dirt, etc. To hear these folks whine about it, you would think that that everyone taking a vehicle to a judging meet should get a trophy. Now that would really cheapen the AACA and the judging system wouldn?t it? They could call it a participation trophy instead of a 1st Jr or a Senior, now couldn?t they? AACA would be the laughing stock of the entire hobby. I guess what I am trying to say is if you are into judging, as I used to be, then go for it 100% and do things exactly as the factory did them. If you are in to the driving them also, expect deductions for some things and don?t whine about it. The AACA has rules about judging and that is why they have a high standard for vehicles that ware the AACA oval on the front of the vehicle. It means they are the best. It took me three meets to get my 1st Jr. I kept working and correcting until I got the trophy.

The AACA has classes for the driven vehicles - - it is the Driver?s Participation Class (DPC). You could have your radial tires, halogen head lights, sealed batteries, etc on these and you still can be involved the day of judging. Another class is the HPOF.

This is a little off the judging

[color:\\"blue\\"] At what point does the experience of driving an antique car become so divorced from what it was actually like to drive an old car "when it was built" as to totally change the hobby?

When was the last time you drove down a country road and heard the birds singing, or the cricket?s chirpings? When was the last time you smelled the clover along the read as you drove? When was the last time that you waved at the farmer on a tractor as you went by and had the kids running along the side walk in a small town yelling ?Honk your horn?? Have you had to stop at the small town post office for directions lately? I believe that is what driving an antique vehicle is all about. I guess what I am trying to say is, driving an antique vehicle, weather if it is a Model T or a 57 Chevrolet it should be an enjoyable time. Folks forget that cars were built to drive.

I guess that most of the folks are driving the interstates and 65 ? 75 MPH is what they want. If that is what they want in driving, they should join the rod clubs.

Dan

[ted sweet]

Thats why my cars are ever going to judged by AACA standards. want to drive them. i refuse to own a trailer queen/museum piece.

[DizzyDale]

Dear Restorer32,Thanks for taking the time to make sense of it all and to Mr.Binger thank you for reminding me that its the journey that means everything not the destination.diz

[bferg]

Each time I read a thread similar to this I am closer to forgetting the AACA and proceed on to another group and enjoy driving my car. The old guard of this organization really rubs a newcomer the wrong way - time and time again. I understand that there are politics in every organization, but the AACA has taken it to new heights. Since my only exposure to the AACA is through this forum, my only hope is that the members who constantly massage each other on this board do not represent the active membership. I'll find out in May when I attend my first AACA meeting in Waco.

[DizzyDale]

Dear bferg,Please explain your post,i don't get it.diz