Got my November issue of the Kustom Bugle?

[Guest]

Well, I guess it's fitting that the Bugle editor used half of the cover to say good bye to the old Buick club, to make way for yet another Kustom Hot road rag.

I cannot wait until the Editor has those bikini clad chicks spread all over the hoods, and have photo's of all those speakers in the trunk.

Oh, look $15 bucks, and I can have "personal satisfaction, encouraging use of Buick components, (other engines discouraged), and work towards the acceptance of modified Buicks in the BCA."

what a pile of crap!

[Guest my3buicks]

Pete S AKA Tommy1927,

Your "constructive" criticism, I mean input, is always appreciated. It amazes me how you continually and tirelessly work toward the betterment of the BCA and and the Bugle. Your positive attitude continually encourages non-BCA members to rush out and join. I'm sure if/when you get around to putting your car on the cover of a Bugle issue there will be MANY positive comments(like yours) from those that enjoy the custom Buick hobby. Thanks again for your input.

[Guest]

if you want to "rape" an old Buick be my guest, but I don't have to like it,or look at it.

If I wanted a Kustom club, I'd join a hot rod club.

I don't think "growing" the club to make V.W. owners or any other make happy is a move in the right direction.

The Bugle cannot be all things to all people.

I don't see why this point of view is thought to be so unreasonable.

[Centurion]

I've not received my issue yet, but here's the cover of the November issue for those of you who are following this thread:

[Bill Stoneberg]

I like it....

Tommy, you may not but there are a lot of people out in the club who like the custom Buick's. Just because it is not "pure" does not diminish the car or the work that went into building the car. Its still a Buick and a damn nice one at that.

[palbuick]

I also Like it

I have been a BCA member since 1971, when there was no coustom or hot rod buicks around. I am like old man Joe, Restored, modified, or custom they are still buicks. I have been restoring my 40 Century for more years than most reading this form. And now working to build a 50's style street rod ( 54 Century), shaved hood, shaved trunk, frenched headlights, electric doors, and a few other modifications.

Buicks were ment to be driven and have fun

Jim Schilf BCA 661

palbuick

[Buicksplus]

I really enjoy the BCA and the Bugle but I must honestly say I cringe when the "Kustom Kar" issue of the Bugle comes out. This is because I have devoted a good part of my life to collecting and preserving as much antiquity as practicable in my old cars. The modified purpose is entirely different, it is aimed at updating and modernizing the car so that it looks and runs better than it did originally. Those aims are fundamentally at odds with the preservationist. I don't think one hobby is any better than the other -- just that they are completely different hobbies.

I recognize that car clubs are really social vehicles (no pun intended) and we all cannot be expected to have the same likes and dislikes. I enjoy the company of most any car nut, even those who modify their cars. But many of my friends collect Chevrolets or Fords. They would certainly be welcome to visit a BCA event, but no one would suggest their cars should be shown along with the Buicks.

As I said starting out, I like the BCA and I don't intend to split because the club has decided to embrace modified cars. I understand the difficulties car clubs have in attracting more and younger members, and perhaps modified cars will help with that problem. Unfortunately, if the modified members come in droves to the club, you are going to see a loss of your more traditional preservationist members, it is inevitable.

All in all, I would prefer that the club keeps its focus on original Buick cars.

Bill

[Smartin]

Good to see Jonnie got some recognition for his car. He's a clocal chapter member...and a stand-up guy at that.

Our chapter has/and always will welcome him and this car with open arms. It's well done, too.

Of course I can't expect everyone to like this car, but can ya at least keep the rude comments off the board?

[jscheib]

Someone made the comment about the modified cars causing preservation cars from attending meets. Maybe someone can correct me, if I am wrong, but is that situation not already happening with older cars not coming out of the garage, especially for National Meets. This was discussed at the BOD in Hershey, and I believe some consideration is being given to special recognition for those cars to encourage attendence.

I understand that the hotel situation in Batavia is such that they expect quite some attendence. Maybe we should "cool" the discusion on this subject to see what cars show up there - or the % of total that are modified. I think we will still see a majority of cars being either original or restored, and perhaps a good percentage of cars that have been modified but mostly Buick in intent. I do not think we will see many with "blowers" about 6" higher then the windshield, or ground clearance that need lifters to drive. I may be wrong, but I will be anxious to see.

While not speaking for the Yankee Chapter, I am pleased to be sharing the cover with the "Kustom", especially one that meant so much to the owner.

John

[michel88]

I would like the BCA to remain dedicated to the preservation of Buicks. I have no interest in "Kustom" Buicks whatsoever. The Hot Rod/Kustom trend is taking over the old car hobby at an alarming rate. The other day I was out driving my '40 Buick and I saw an old car approaching me. I was very surprized to see it was a totally stock '46 Ford! In the last few years whenever I see an old car on the road it is always a Hot Rod/Street Rod. There is a finite number of old Buicks and I think it is a mistake to promote modifiying Buicks.

Woody Michel

'40 Buick Roadmaster Coupe

'63 Buick Riviera

[brad54]

You know, this seems to come up pretty regularly, and it seems like there are only one or two dorks who start it--Tommy seems to have a problem with anybody who does anything but get down on the ground and kiss the tailpipe of pure originality.

Preservation, heritage, blah blah blah. It amazes me that after the last go around, he still has absolutely no grasp of the Golden Rule--If you can't say anything nice, then shut the hell up. You must just be a joy to be around in the real world, too. Bitter old crab.

I make my living writing for car magazines, and I've been around enough to see what the trends are. And trust me, if you think trends are driven by a bunch of editors sitting around a table smoking cigars, you're dead wrong. Trends in this hobby are driven by advertising dollars. When ad dollars start dropping out of a restoration-oriented magazine (take your pick--Mopar Muscle, Mustang Monthly, Mustangs and Fords, etc.), and you're told it's because you aren't hitting their target audiance, then the magazines change. The newstand sales of the magazine is an indicator as well. On Mopar Muscle, the sales and ad dollars were falling. We started putting in some performance stuff, and what do you know? Sales and ad revenue started climbing! Now that magazine is stronger than ever--and when it started, it was the leader in the Mopar segment, as a resto-only magazine. That isn't the editors and publishers sitting around making the trend, it's a response to the hobby.

This is an old situation. Model A Fords; the hobby used to embrace restoration only. How many Antique Ford restorers are there today? What's worth more to someone today? And if you're having a problem figuring this out, here's another clue: most of the antique restorers are old, and frankly are dying off. Those that are coming after them are younger, and they aren't restoring. That's a trend happening across the board.

Does the BCA want to cater to hardcore restorers like Tommy here, and continue narrowing their market and membership, or would they rather include ALL Buick enthusiasts and continue to survive and grow?

I take this garbage real personally when people start throwing the term "rape" around when discussing modifying cars, since that market puts food on my family's table and lets me play in my shop building cars. Why is it so hard for you to have an opinion and be kind or polite when you express it?! Why must everyone march lockstep with your narrow-minded thoughts, or be subjected to your venom? What possible good do you think you're insults, name calling and hatred are going to bring about? And oh yeah, THEIR ONLY CARS! Take a look at the rest of the world and see what's going on--Iraq, Sudan, N. Korea, Ivory Coast, and the list goes on forever! People are butchering one another, and you act like modifying a Buick is the end of the world. This hobby is a pleasant diversion from our otherwise pleasant lives. Get a grip.

You know what I'd like to see come out of all this? I'd like to see Tommy banned from this board. Not because of his opinion, but becasue of the horrible, argumentative, insulting way he presents it. Calling other people's cars "crap" (more than once, now) and saying those of us who modify Buicks are "raping" them is just...I don't even know what else to say.

Tommy, if you don't like it, do us all a favor and leave. And don't let the door hit you on the way out. If you'd like to contribute your opinion, kindly do it in a way that doesn't make us want to throw date-coded exhaust manifolds at your head.

-Brad

[Guest]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Those aims are fundamentally at odds with the preservationist. </div></div>

Hey Brad,

I hope you feel better, sound like you've been saving that one up for a while. I take no offense, Moderator don't delete his post.

Do you remember the old car rag called "Car Exchange". It use to be all about original cars, but in 1982 or so it went to hot rods, and then died.

I think the editors of these rags are lazy, and are tired of writing about '57 Chevy tail fins.

Now, you look at the Free yahoo groups, were we get 30 posts a day on the details of our cars, and you can understand why the USA Today, general, lack of scope articles in the generic rags are not being bought off the newsstands. Just like the national news, the stories are weak, and have no research behind them.

This issue will come down to an election with a BCA president and board who wants to preserve Buicks, and is not looking for "Higher sale", BCA credit cards, Museums, and theme parks.

At the very least, all the old car will switch over to the AACA, and Horseless carriage club.

[The Old Guy]

I have said this before, but it seems I have to say it again! I have been in the BCA since 1969, and have watched the club grow from a small group that drove to the meets ,to a huge membership that is VERY diverse. The BCA has been through many phases, and this is just another one. When the club was smaller ,there was still a "modified " group, but most of us had restored Buicks as well. Many of the "hot Rod" members brought their talents into the organization, and after being in the BCA for a while , showed restorers sources for restoration parts and equipment that they did not know about. The main thrust of the BCA has been ,and will continue to be the "preservation and restoration " of Buicks, but there will also always be a rebel or two. The "rebels" will introduce new thingsto the BCA, and perhaps they will also help the club grow in the coming years. If you don't like customs, it is a simple thing to walk on by, but if you stop, and look at one, you will be surprised the quality of workmanship, and the innovation that wentnto the construction.

I have enjoyed the BCA for many years, and if you look at the new members joining because of the "Buick Driving Enthusiasts" division, you will find that the "Modified" division will do the same thing.

"Chill Out" and give them a chance!! You might just learn something new

[Guest elk93001]

The other day I bought one of the new Hemmings magazines. In it, they did an article about the restoration of a 1972 Skylark GS convertible. While this was not a vintage pre-war Buick, one item that caught my eye was that the man who restored the car had trouble locating repro parts for his Buick. It hinted that while parts could be had for a 1972 A body Chevy, it just wasn't something you could find for a Buick.

Fast forward to the present day: Buick's current reputation has been that of the car for the golden years (check out the South Park episode, clearly the car looks like a Buick) and other media. Every rag that discusses the new Buicks, refers to Buick's image (problem)

Unfortunately for us, Buick could face the same fate as its sister division, Oldsmobile.

I enjoy looking at Buicks: original, modified, unrestored, restored. I do not want to see Buick go away. The more Buicks that are out there that catches the eyes of others, the less of an image problem Buick will have.

While modifieds may not catch your eye, perhaps the attention to detail will and vice versa. If we are restoring a car to original condition or not, ideas and techniques that improve the workmanship can be shared by all (sorry to sound so communist). That's what I enjoy and appreciate about the hobby.

The collector car hobby is being assailed on many fronts, in particular emissions laws/government who want to limit the use of our cars (modified or not).

This bickering and complaining does not do the car hobby justice whatsoever.

When I go to a car show I go to look at cars, not dogs, not cats, not clothing, not spices, not jukeboxes and the other totally non-related car items at car shows...I go there for cars and car related stuff that will help me to accomplish what I want to accomplish with my cars, be it to restore, preserve or modify.

So if you own an original Buick, show it, I want to see it, I want my boys to see it, if you own a modified, show it, I want to see it and my kids to see it too. The more Buicks that we all see may actually help our marque, our hobby and public appreciation for what WE love...our Buicks. One hand washes the other.

My only question is: Are bikini clad girls only allowed to pose with modifieds or can they pose with pre-war cars as well? Obviously This comment was meant to break the tension (in case anyone misinterpreted it)

[BigFella]

We've had this discussion here over and over again. Maybe we should just ask the moderator to stickey one of these to the top so we don't have to cut and paste our comments over and over again! The only thing that keeps coming to my mind is advice I heard when I was younger...

"Opinions are like poo (ok I deleted the stronger word here), everyone has them and nobody thinks theirs stink!"

On a lighter note:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> My only question is: Are bikini clad girls only allowed to pose with modifieds or can they pose with pre-war cars as well? Obviously This comment was meant to break the tension (in case anyone misinterpreted it) </div></div>

Now if we take the two camp approach to this then the "Bathing Beauties" for the pre-war cars would be dressed in something alot more conservative than a present day bikini and be really really wrinkley! (joke, it's a joke!)

[HurstGN]

I do agree to some extent that ripping apart a complete, solid, and easily restorable car...and turning it into a custom hot rod may not be the best thing for the hobby. Finding complete cars in original condition is becoming harder by the day. Yes, if it can be preserved, it would be nice to do so. In 50 years, lets see if you can find a Honda Civic that has 14" wheels on it. Not all cars survive their first year unaltered, let alone 25 or 50 years or more.

Now, lets consider this scenario: A junkyard has a 57 Buick. The doors are pretty well shot. The bumpers a just about 100% rusted relics that give a hint as to the former shape of the chromed pieces. The glass is all gone, long broken out by vandals. The engine was pulled in favor of a previous restoration of another 57 Buick. This car appears to be a worthless pile of crap. Obviously, IF you could find the parts to reconstruct this vehicle, the investment would not be worth the effort, unless you have the unlimited funds of a millionaire. Along walks an up and coming Chip Foose or a Troy Trepanier, lets call him Biff Ranger, and he sees lines that he falls in love with. For $50 the hulk is purchased and the young lad begins to make the frame, sheetmetal, and rest of what isn't there from scratch. Yes, he takes a few liberties with the car since he has a vision of a custom car. 5+ years later, he completes the car. Of the complete car, less than 5% of the cars parts are original. Does he call the car a 2010 Ranger. Nope. He calls his minds creation a 57 Buick. This creation was Biff Ranger's way of preserving the old 57 Buick, while giving it a personal look for the year 2010. No matter how you look at it, this is barely a 57 Buick, but it was originally a 57, and he still calls it a 57 Buick. And this custom car keeps one more 57 Buick on the road, and out of the crusher. It seems Biff has done a huge part to preserving the Buick. Wouldn't you agree?

So before trashing a custom car just for the sake that it's a custom, maybe ask what condition the car was in before the job was started. Maybe it was a labor of love to save a pile of junk. If it was not, then state your case politely and try to win one to your side.

[Guest]

Click on the link below to see the solution to the issue.

THE SOLUTION

[brad54]

No, I haven't been saving that up for a long time. I just usually have the same response when people self-righteously bash other people and their work.

Keep refering to magazine writers as lazy and their mags as rags--big deal. And what is it, exactly, that YOU contribute to the hobby? Besides making a wedge and pissing people off. Don't like the articles we write? Go ahead and whip one out yourself. Freelance something. Go on--make a contribution. Make a real effort. Or is that too scary, and too much work.

I couldn't open your little link, but "The Solution" has a sarcastic ring to it, and I'm sure I probably wouldn't enjoy it, so I don't care.

I have a lot of friends who like strictly stock, resto stuff. I have a lot of friends who like hot rods--high dollar and low buck. Billet, traditional, smooth, custom, rod, resto, concours, it's all fun! And we all get along, respect what one another are doing, and enjoy the hobby. Which is what it should be about.

Your attitude sucks, and I'm to the point in my life where I just can't stand being around people like you--whether in person or on a forum. What good does it do to be negative and assaulting? Do you think you're really going to bring people around to your way of thinking? Make friends? Influence decisions?

Or, probably more accurately, are you just trying to make a name for yourself by trashing everyone else, so you can be the center of attention.

What kind of car do you have? Do you work on it? Does it run? Do you go to local cruises and car shows? Even in your regular driver, just to show up and see the vintage iron.

Crawl back in your cave, surround yourself with pictures of horseless carraiges and cry about the world going to hell in a handbasket. Or in a modified '64 Riv, with a 2x4 401 backed by a 4speed, wearing Torque Thrusts and a metal flake paint job.

Or hang around here, lighten up, come on down offa your high horse, stop throwing rocks at other people, and live and let live.

-Brad

[Buicksplus]

Tommy:

You should not have shown that engine. You may give ideas to an enterprising rodder who will hang a monster blower on it, chrome everything, and stick it in his Reatta!

Great sound, by the way, it sure is not going to be confused with your neighbor's small block Chevy......

Hey, it's a great hobby and this is a big tent club. But understand that the more successful BCA is in marketing this club to modifieds, the more it will tend to drive that aging, dwindling band of preservationists to other clubs. If that is where the club wants to go, then so be it. Only time will tell how this story really ends.

Bill.

[brad54]

The computer just popped your video up onto my screen. Is that yours? If so, it's pretty cool. I was a little worried when the RPM came up so high--that'd suck to hurt the engine.

It's a nice looking engine, and probably a nice little car. I'm firmly a rodder, but I like looking at cars like that, too.

In fact, though I'm only 33, I've already planned my retirement car: a Model T speedster (or if I can find the parts to build a 'teens-'20s era Buick, then that). Not much power, open cockpit, and not real fast. That way, when I shouldn't be driving a new car because my skills have deteriorated, I can still get around--won't drive in rain, and I won't be one of those annoying old guys who drives 35mph in the 55 zones: I'll just be the cute old guy in the antique car.

Oh, wait--modified guys can't appreciate antiques, and antique guys can't appreciate modified cars either, right? Two different sides of the hobby that can't ever get along, right? Sorry. I keep forgetting. I'll try to be better, er, more narrow minded, Tommy.

-Brad

[Guest Skyking]

I received my copy of the Bugle a few days ago. When I saw Jonnie Kings 61 Invicta on the front cover I immediately opened the book and started reading about this car. Jonnie goes into great detail about this Buick he's been following for quite some years. The story was eloquently written and he seems very proud of his car.

Tommy, I hope he never gets to read this post you started! The BCA is a big club and there is plenty of room in it for all of us..............

[Guest herkamer]

A huge Ditto to Brad54's comments. Why would anyone want to join such a hateful bunch as the BCA?? Not a fair statement not everyone shares the same opinion as Tommy1927--thankful for that!!!

[NTX5467]

. . . key the music . . . "WE ARE FA-MI-LY"

I realize there are some in the BCA (and other segments of the automotive hobby) that have somewhat inflexible orientations of the segments they might not agree with. I recall, from earlier times, some comments from the Flathead Ford V-8 group about how "wrong" it was to find a pristine, steel-bodied car and chop the top and make it into a "hot rod". And then a man showed up with one of those very cars at a weekend cruise spot--wearing a t-shirt with wording to the effect "Anybody can restore a car. It takes a man to chop one". And he was pretty stoutly built at about 6'3". So much for that!

A friend had a '68 Camaro coupe that was a long-time race car. It was gutted and tubbed and roll-caged and still wore the factory blue paint. It was easy to see that the body never had been hit or repaired and that the roll cage had kept the quarter panels and top panels all straight as the day they were all welded together at the factory. It was remarked, after the value of restored Camaros began to escalate in the later times, that the car was "too nice" to make a race car out of, even if it had been a lowly (i.e., non-collectible) 250 six cylinder. And it really was "too nice" to end up in such a state, BUT just as with "saved" and customized cars, it was easily identifiable as a Camaro and that's all that mattered. Even if it was a stock-bodied race car, it was still making an impression on all that saw it of what great cars those Camaros were. So they might want one like it (for a street car) one day too!

Just as in the case of that particular Camaro, when people find a cherry car for a project, they pounce upon it due to it's "desireability" and "straight" body, even if those attributes are not really necessary for what they intend to do. Same is true of restoration people and modifiers and racers.

It is a very real fact that no more vintage vehicles are being made--except for the company that's tooling up to build new '69 Camaro convertible bodies (as was on the cover of HOT ROD magazine recently). It is unfortunate that many people "with money" will buy an older car and immediately start making it into their "dream car". It might be a different wheel/tire combination, engine upgrades, or even custom body work/paint. In some cases, this "dream car" will have less value when finished than it did before they did anything--but it's now their car and their money. A car that they will be very proud of, even if we might shake our heads at.

I got my Bugle today and thumbed though it. I noticed the stunning custom Buick on the cover and the related article. I might not fully customized a car, but I know the additional work that usually goes into them and definitely appreciate that--especially if it's something of the calibre of that particular Buick.

The "saving the car" scenario has been mentioned, but lets look at another related situation--parts availability. Let's go back to that '57 Buick in the salvage yard, except lets predate it about 15 years to when it was still sitting in the owner's driveway (or back yard).

It was a car that held many memories but had evolved into the "extra" car of the family. But now the family was basically the "empty nesters" of the family, who still remembered when the paint was still shiney and the engine ran without smoking. A great car it was, but time and use had taken their tolls on the vehicle's physical attributes.

Let's presume it resided in a state that requires yearly safety inspections too. So the owner took it to the inspection station for the annual inspection and it was found that the brakes did not work too well and the exhaust was leaking, not to mention the smoke from the tail pipe. It would not pass inspection without some work, so the owner went in search of somebody that would do the job. He went to various repair shops that did not want to do the work and probably laughed at him as he drove off. "You want to fix THAT??!!" they probably thought.

He thought he might want to do some of the work himself, as he used to do, plus he still had some manuals for the car. So he went to the "large" auto supply and soon discovered that they had no parts listed for the car. "What a BUMMER", the owner probably thought. Knowing that the only other place for the car would be the salvage yard. No parts to fix it. No one that knows HOW to fix it. Will not pass inspection. Even if he could find somebody to work on it, he probably could not afford it.

Although this owner was a loyal Buick owner and loved the car, there was no suspicion that any kind of Buicks-only club might exist. The whole "car club" deal never crossed his mind. Sure, he'd seen those hot rod magazines and such at the grocery store, but he never looked at them as "hot rods" were not an interest. So, with no further information on where to get parts, the only course of action that made sense was to scrap out the car. After all, it was considered to be "worthless" if it could not be made to run and drive legally. So, the car went to the salvage yard and we know the rest of the story.

Now, if the owner had not given up quite so easily, some more research might have been done to find parts sources and even THIS CLUB. Not to mention looking at the many "old car" magazines and such at the larger newsstands. Or going to the weekend cruises (the owner's local newspaper did not have an "Antique Car" classified section) to seek out somebody with a similar brand car for information on parts and repairs. This devoted Buick owner had no inkling of the large support network for Buick vehicles that is in the vintage car hobby today, but a few hours of research and probably $20.00 worth of magazines might have given the information of what the car was really worth and where to get the needed parts to make it that way. Not to mention Internet searches!

Many times, when the original parts are not available locally, or reasonably easy, the owners would look to what they had available and use that. That was part of the "birth" of hot rodding, using salvage yard engines (from the larger car lines that had larger displacement engines and stronger rear axles) to put where smaller engines used to be. THAT is just as much a part of the automotive heritage as completely stock "trailer queens" are today.

Or using a fancier seat fabric to redo the upholstery in the car. Whether it's a "close match" or something completely different, is "something" better than springs poking up through the uncovered padding? If you're going to change something, why not do something creative for the same amount of money? Same with sound systems too. Hopefully, the end result enhances the vehicle in the eyes of the owner and others too.

At some point in time, almost everybody in the car hobby has looked at what somebody has done to a car and wondered "What were they thinking?", whether it was lace-patterned paint in the late '60s, cutting up cherry cars to make race cars or customs, or putting an older body on a newer frame (and did a poor job of it). We can't tell people what not to do to their cars, but we can grumble about it as if they really care. Or "disown" them from our circle of friends. Or go up and tell them what a big mistake they made--to their face. And WHAT would it solve? Nothing. WHAT would it make other similar enthusiasts look like? Not good, at least to the person that's just been chastised.

Now, one other thing . . . WHERE in the BCA Mission Statement does it say anything about "stock" Buicks per se? I'm aware of the judging issues in the 400 Point System, but that's not part of the Mission Statement. I'd also like to know where it says "antique Buick" in that Mission Statement too! Even if these particular things are not in the Mission Statement, it apperas that many perceive them to be. Sure, the National Meets are judged by the 400 Point System that requires a significant "end of the assembly line" condition to really win any awards, but the BCA is not specifically designed to just have vehicles in it that are "400 Point Capable". Yet that is perceived to be "the way it is", and has been since the early days of the club.

Remember the bio of the late Greg Fallowfield that was in The Bugle a couple of years ago? One of the things mentioned about his cars was that he had a Buick street rod with a TPI Corvette engine in it, backed up by a later model GM automatic transmission. As "BCA #1", he held a special place in the history of this organization.

Considering all of the "gotta be stock" and "antique" dialogues I'd heard over the years with respect to the BCA, I would have suspected that Mr. Fallowfield would have only had "end of the assembly line" condition vehicles, but that does not appear to be completely the case.

I'll certainly admit that I admire an owner (of any vintage vehicle) that has taken the time to research (vehicles and restoration supplies), orchestrate, and execute a completely correct "frame off" restoration or a reconstruction of a particular vehicle--doesn't matter if it's a "non-collectible" vehicle or a highly sought after car--BECAUSE I know the amount of time it takes to make that happen PLUS resist the option of taking the easy way out and changing something that's not readily available or less expensive to do. Even when I see a really nice vehicle that's been restored, but I see they have put an inexpensive "auto supply" battery in it (rather than seek out a restoration battery or at least one made by the vehicle's manufacturer), it makes me wonder just what other corners they "cut" when they did the car!

But I also know that some enhancements/improvements can be made "incognito" to engines and other parts of the vehicle without affecting the cosmetics of the vehicle too. Some things have improved over the years with improved designs, which are enough better to make chasing that rare NOS date-coded original part something that the "trailer queen" people might better benefit from on their vehicle.

By the same token, I also appreciate a well-designed/orchestrated/assembled "modified" vehicle. Whether it be a "Day Two Restoration" or a full custom or a nice Street Rod or Street Machine. Granted, everybody has their own tolerance of what they like in vehicles and I certainly respect that.

To me, it's a far worse sin to do something to a vehicle and "hack it up" under the skin than to change something and do a stellar job of what is done. NO vehicle deserves a "hatchet job", whether it's a restoration (I've seen some of those) or a modified vehicle (and some of those too!).

key the music again . . . "WE ARE FA-MI-LY"

Now, let's all have fun with cars and trucks! There's enough room for everybody in this club and in the vehicle hobby. A big happy family!

Enjoy to the limit of your tolerance (or your finances and/or the tolerance of your spouse--as applicable)! Let's all have fun!

NTX5467

[Matt Harwood]

I can see the directions this topic is taking:

1) Who should the club serve

2) Original vs. modified vehicles

I think the topic here is what the club's position should be on modified cars, not the modified cars in question, correct? I also think that's an important discussion for any club to have.

But let's also face reality: In this case, Buicks are mass-produced cars. It isn't like we're going to run out of them. I don't think there are enough hot-rodders out there to deplete the supply of any Buick you want in original condition. If the car is so rare that making a hot-rod out of it would be considered sacriledge, then it's probably already been restored. Rodders aren't taking history out of circulation.

How does that relate to the BCA? Hard question and I'll wager that we'll never get a consensus. But my personal opinion is <span style="font-style: italic">once a Buick, always a Buick.</span> This club is about Buicks, and until we're down to the last one, I don't think we should be picking nits about what has been done to it over its lifetime. If somebody loves it, then it's all good.

Now I'm sure someone will pipe in about that Cord at Barret-Jackson, or the Lincoln Zephyr or the growing numbers of Packard sedans being rodded, and what a travesty it is. That's your opinion (I happen to share it, but I'm not going to try to force someone else to swallow it, either). But for whatever reason, that is the direction the hobby has taken lately. The pendulum may swing back, and original cars may become the hot ticket, who knows? It isn't the fault of any one thing (hot-rod TV shows, emissions regulations, aging enthusiasts, etc.), but a combination of these. I also think it is blown way out of proportion--I'll wager that restored and original cars outnumber hot-rods 10:1. They just aren't as visible.

Yeah, I'll agree that Tommy's expression of his opinion could have been more tactful, but his message is still valid. His opinion is shared by a lot of people. I'm of the opinion that there is room for everyone in this hobby and that if we stop regarding hot-rodders like some sort of renegade biker gang and as enthusiasts just like us, it may change the argument. As has been pointed out many times, most hot-rods start out as cars that can't be saved or aren't worth saving. Just enjoy your car and stop worrying about what others are doing and what their responsibility to history is. I'll start worrying when I don't see all the restored Classics in Hemmings every month.

Is there a shortage of '61 Buick Invictas that I wasn't aware of?

[Guest Rojo22]

Ahhhhh.....Tommy is back up to his old tricks again. Tactless as usual. Momma once said " If you cannot say anything nice, SHUDUP!" I hope the gentleman who has the car in the magazine understands that YOUR words are meant to demean and cause him angst. I also hope he understands that it comes from an arrogant ivory tower of ONE......The rest of us appreciate his hard work, vision, dedication, and energy to complete a worthy project, and allowing us to partake in the beauty of his magnificent achievement.

[Guest]

Since the BCA management is looking to increase membership, like the CLC,and AACA,let?s figure out how BIG the BCA can grow.

Buick built cars for 1903 to 2004.

Cars are collected from:

low production in the '00,'10,'20'30,'40

High production in the '50,'60,'70'80's

I would "guess" that the '90's and 2000's will bring few car collectors into the hobby.

So, the set number of BCA members is based on the 1900's to 1980's.

Let's say 40,000 surviving cars for club members to buy, restore,or Kustomize.

The number of cars will only go down(fire, flood,Kustoms,Blimp attack). The BCA membership,which is about 36,000 is really at the maximum possible for people with Buicks.

Now if the BCA want to access the Kustom members, and accelerate the attrition of stocks Buicks, this would be the completely wrong director for PRESERVATION.

My 1927 buick is 77 years old and will be in the BCA longer that I will be on the earth, just with a diffrent "ass" in the front seat.

[Customizer]

Hi Tommy,

If you would like to sell you car, I have been looking for a good 1927 to make into a Street Rod. From the sounds of your motor, its on its last legs.

I have a Chevy motor with a blower on it and would probably chop the top and slam it so the car would look right.

There is nothing like those big old Buick's.

Send me a PM with your asking price.

Thanks

Tom Jiradi

[Matt Harwood]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Since the BCA management is looking to increase membership, like the CLC,and AACA,let?s figure out how BIG the BCA can grow.

Buick built cars for 1903 to 2004.

Cars are collected from:

low production in the '00,'10,'20'30,'40

High production in the '50,'60,'70'80's

I would "guess" that the '90's and 2000's will bring few car collectors into the hobby.

So, the set number of BCA members is based on the 1900's to 1980's.

Let's say 40,000 surviving cars for club members to buy, restore,or Kustomize.

The number of cars will only go down(fire, flood,Kustoms,Blimp attack). The BCA membership,which is about 36,000 is really at the maximum possible for people with Buicks.

Now if the BCA want to access the Kustom members, and accelerate the attrition of stocks Buicks, this would be the completely wrong director for PRESERVATION.

My 1927 buick is 77 years old and will be in the BCA longer that I will be on the earth, just with a diffrent "ass" in the front seat. </div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Tommy,</span> I see what you're trying to do, but I think your estimates are waaaaay off. The viable pool of vintage Buicks has got to be much larger than 40,000 vehicles, even restricting it to the years you indicate.

An oft-quoted rule of thumb on the survival rate of mass-produced vintage vehicles (and let's face it, Buicks are mass-produced cars no matter how beloved) is 4-5%. I don't know about all the years, but in 1941 (Buick's best year up to that time), just the Special model line alone would account for as many as 5000 cars avilable in one form or another today, a number which I find to be totally believeable. So there's 10% of your pool of available Buicks but from only 1.2% of the "available" model years you suggest. I'm also quite certain that later year vehicles, being younger, more practical as daily drivers, produced in greater numbers yet and not having to deal with war-time scrappage, would have an even better survival rate. I don't think we're losing many cars to attrition each year, not in any statistically relevant way.

With that in mind, the BCA is far from having every Buick in captivity on its roster. In fact, on the Dual Carburetor Registry that I maintain, about half the cars there are not owned by BCA members (though I encourage it!). Those guys aren't less enthusiastic about their cars, they're just not members for whatever reason. I bet non-member Buick owners outnumber members by a wide margin, too.

So crying about the dilution of the club's population isn't going to change anything. The club still caters to you, <span style="font-weight: bold">Tommy</span>--it has vast resources devoted to the restoration and preservation of old Buicks. But it has also adopted the point of view that all Buicks of all varieties should be welcome, and that feels right to me. Personally, I feel that no good ever comes from any organization that works overtime to keep a specific group of people out, even a club ostensibly designed to help people have fun with their cars. Sure, we can limit the BCA to Buicks, but splintering the club along stock vs. modified lines sure sounds like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

[Guest my3buicks]

Pete,

First off let's get everyone on the right page that your name is Pete, not Tommy, most of us on here are not afraid to let people know who we are. Hiding behind a fake name and attacking maliciously is for cowards.

Second, if you are going to be all knowing and the "Self Appointed Spokeperson" for what YOU feel the general membmership feels, then you should at least have a clue of how many members you represent, the BCA currently has just under 9500 members.

Everyone has the right to opinions on every issue, but they need to be tasteful with some class, not classless!!

[Dave@Moon]

If '61 LeSabres were the only cars being lost I doubt anyone would care, but that's hardly the case!

It's now become commonplace to find Full Classic Packards infected with the ubiquitous sbc and monochrome orange paint. You don't even have to look very hard to find Cord, Pierce-Arrow, Rolls-Royce and other truly rare cars being rodded today (see the thread Lost Souls ). <span style="font-weight: bold">Worse</span>, they're frequently built out of fully restored show cars recently purchased at estate auctions. It's my theory that rarest and most valuable cars will be lost at an increasing rate as the Johnny-Come-Latelys to the street rod hobby strive to find some way to make their creation unique, as that is the <span style="font-style: italic">raison de'tre</span> for street rodding in the first place. Trying to be unique in a crowd of thousands (<span style="font-style: italic">locally</span>) or hundreds of thousands (<span style="font-style: italic">nationally</span>) is almost impossible.

Watching this erosion is what gets people like Tommy so upset. It isn't an individual car, or even an individual club. It's the effect of promoting a mindset that <span style="font-style: italic">can be</span> and <span style="font-style: italic">has been</span> highly destructive to other aspects of the hobby. We're standing in a flood, and Tommy is yelling at the rain.

There may be many root causes for the loss of interest in non-Kustom cars. One clear difference to me is the simple fact that street rodders drive their cars and restorers don't. Our hobby has elevated perfection of condition to a degree that makes driving the cars unthinkable for many owners and at least an unneccessary financial risk for others. The result being that the general public has the distinct impression that without a "modern" drivetrain our cars can't satisfyingly negotiate the streets, even local streets. Even cars well-capable of 100 mph are referred to in street-rod literature as "substantially improved driving cars" once rodded.

Again, I've tried on the AACA side to explore this phenomenon (see the thread So Now What? ) to no avail. It seems most owner/restorers are resigned to seeing the hobby diminish and to having the remains of our interests used as fodder for the next generations' hot rod dress-up fun.

So while people may object to the criticality of Tommy's remarks and find them inappropriate, I think it would do us all well to not dismiss them as mearly an aesthetic opinion worthy of immediate dismissal. There's a bigger picture here that is too easily ignorred. Much too easily, it turns out.

[Guest]

Keith,

I thought somethings was missing in that post...now I see "the rest of the story". And no, I did guess on the totals, and 40,000 cars might be low, but I would think it is under 100,000.

My handle was created when the fourm was new, so like my email address, burnsmontyc@yahoo.com, I'm not Homers boss.

Dave, I am quite amused that a "Car related" topic that goes against the "if it feels good do it", is shouted down with such vigar. (were is howard...)

Keith,& Kustom-kids, I don't think one tread,on one web page is going to over throw the BCA, or get "Pimp my ride" off of MTV.

Now go chop something.

[Guest my3buicks]

Pete, but it might keep that custom Buick owner that happens to be surfing the web from considering a BCA membership. And that grades ME the wrong way!!!

[Guest Rojo22]

Production numbers for the 80's dictates at least 100,000 cars, so your estimate is waaaayyyyy off. Like the thread that got started a month ago on this issue, for you guys that dictate to us what OUR cars need to look like, we apologize. We will promptly surrender our cars, and allow you to purchase ALL BUICKS, and let you put them in a museum. What you cant afford them all? Well that means we can do what WE want to do to the rest of the BUICKS. The market dictates what a car is worth. You dont want to see em chopped and blown, and with a sbc in them, then buy them for the price they want. If you cant afford them all, then leave the rest of us alone. We dont need to hear your sneering remarks about how we dont measure up to your acute standards.

[Guest AWBE]

Paraphrased Quote " If you can't say something nice then don't say anything at all." I paraphrase it to not use the profanity which you obviously cannot steer clear of. I trust your magazine writing is more coherent, organized, and plain old civil than your diatribe.

[brad54]

Wondered when Dave would check in.

100,000 cars left is a rediculous figure. I don't have any Buick production figures, but I have a reference book with some Chevy figures in it. The 30 MILLIONth Chevy was a '53. 30 Million, by '53.

From that same book: "General Motors, the automotive colossus, built it's 50-millionth car on November 23, 1954. It was...an all-gold 1955 Chevrolet Bel Air Sport Coupe." So GM built 50 million cars by November '54.

From that book, Chevrolet built 1,501,658 cars in 1957 alone. And Ford outsold Chevy that year. I don't know where Buick stood in sales figures, but if they sold 500-THOUSAND FEWER cars than Chevy did that year, they still sold a million cars. If just ten percent of that number is still around today--only 1-out of 10--then there are 100,000 '57 Buicks.

Contrary to popular opinion, most old cars aren't really that rare. The 500 Daytona Chargers are rare. The 69 ZL1 '69 Camaros are rare. A Buick Regal or T-type is not. There were a million Mustangs built in their first year of production alone! Not Buicks, I know, but it should shed some light in Dave's dark cave.

Which brings up another good point--How about the later '80s Buick performers? The Regal, T-type and GNs? I remember from a previous post of yours that you don't consider these worthy of being at a Buick show; something about it making the field look like a late-model used car lot.

I personally like the old Sport Wagons, Vista Cruisers and the recent Roadmasters and station wagons. I love seeing those with some modifications to them, or restored in all their fake wood-grained glory. And for their day, they're certainly as low-brow as you're '27 4door: simple family transportation. Nothing sporty, nothing flashy, nothing rarely optioned.

As for driving vintage cars--that's one of my biggest complaints. Guys concours-restore these cars, trailer them to shows for a couple years and fix the things that need fixing until they get the highest awards for their brand or class, and then.......they don't want to take them out of the garage, because they're worried about the bare metal master cylinder, diff housing and driveshaft flash rusting, and having to spend hours under the car with a toothbrush re-detailing it.

And the argument about a car being too valuable to drive after it's restored is also dumb. Few classic Buicks cost more than a brand new SUV. No, you can't just go to the parts store and get new body panels or parts, but if the car was restored once, it can be restored again, can't it?

I don't understand guys who spend $45,000 restoring a car, and then spend $60,000 on a tow vehicle and enclosed trailer because the restored car is too valuable to drive. Just don't get it.

Should everyone be like me and drive a low-mileage '54 Special until the manual trans eats itself? No--if you don't want to, don't do it. But for a year and a half, I drove that car every single day, rain or shine, everywhere I had to go. Hell, I even took the insurance off my '97 Dodge Dakota during that time because I wasn't driving it. I kept a vintage car on the road, repaired the things that failed, and had a blast. And no matter where I went, there was ALWAYS someone who wanted to talk to me about that old nothing-special Special. From a grand-scheme, good-for-the-hobby point of view, that was a lot better than pulling the car out three or four times a year and driving it to a parking lot, where it will sit and you'll sit in a lawn chair next to it.

But I didn't do it for those reasons--I did it because it was fun, and I enjoy driving and using old cars.

-Brad

[Guest my3buicks]

for historic note Buick built it's 7 millionth (a Roamster Sedan) in 53

[Guest]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> low-brow as you're '27 4door </div></div>

My 27-20 has two doors.

But old production numbers mean nothing. (ie. polution credits- yet antoher topic)

But, I would guess Hemmings has about 15,000 ads per month.

I did not realize the BCA membership was as low as the CLC.

The Memember ship number are all running in the 30k range.

Keith, I would think a BCA member has a priorty to talk about the BCA on a BCA forum over some web-surfer who might not like a comment or two.

Never the less, some of you guys don't write your mother this much.

We have all winter to work on this topic.

[The Old Guy]

This thread is just an extension of the discussion that NEVER ENDS!!! I believe in driving my Buicks, and have driven my 1940 Super over 100,000 miles. I also have a 1937 Buick with 455 Buick power, and enjoy it too. I drove my 69 Sport Wagon to Plano to get a "Driven " award, and will drive my 37 to Batavia for the first judging of the new "Modified " division. Every member of the BCA has a choice, and can do as they please with their Buick. We have many that have "senior" cars that are driven to the meets, and we also have Buicks that never see the light of day. This is the owners choice, and theirs alone. This is what makes the world go around. If we all did the samt thing, it would be a boring place to live.

[Guest imported_MrEarl]

Joe, you are indeed the greatest. My only comment in this thread is gonna be "Just shut the **** up and listen to Joe" nuf said.....

[old-tank]

There is no difference between rodders/modifiers and restorers. There has been much discussion of the butchering of cars by rodders/modifiers. How many of us have seen and/or been guilty of chopping and parting out a running, driveable and restorable 2door or 4door sedan to restore a 2door hardtop or convertible? I have seen it and done it. I know of one case where a currently registered 54 Special converible was used as a donor for a 54 Skylark.

Even restored cars are modified..usually better built than the original and there are always some some missing or incorrect items that the we hope the judges don't catch.

Willie