1917 Pierce Arrow 66 "original"

[Leif in Calif]

Quite an impressive vehicle! $ 650,000   (more pics in ad) (401) 521-5333

https://www.classiccars.ws/sales/1917piercearrow66/index.html

The Pierce 66 housed the largest engine ever placed in a production American automobile with a monster 825 cubic inch T head in-line six cylinder engine. 147.5 inch wheelbase. Twelve hundred and fifty Pierce 66s were produced from 1910 to 1918 but only fourteen are known to survive today. The example listed here for sale is perhaps the most original example surviving.

[DavidinCA]

I have no idea what it’s worth, but what an amazing find.  It’s not just an original Pierce, but a park Victoria. I can’t wait to hear Ed’s comments on it. 

[Layden B]

Years ago I was on a tour with my 6 cylinder 1912 Mitchell. I thought we were doing well pulling this long hill and passing smaller cars when I realized there was a car behind rapidly catching up.  I didn't feel too bad being passed by Harrah's Pierce 66 until I saw that it was pulling a Thomas Flyer on a rope!

[wayne sheldon]

One of my longtime best friends used to work as Ed M does now. He managed restorations and consulted on purchases for a few private collectors (mostly for one major private collection however a few others from time to time). He worked on hundreds of collector cars, mostly brass and nickel era, and as part of his work, drove many of the cars. He has driven dozens of high end powerful automobiles of the 1910s! Many of them for hundreds of miles.

After driving Locomobiles, nearly a dozen Pierce Arrows, a Simplex, big Packards, and at least a half dozen different Stutz automobiles, he was asked to consult on a possible purchase  of a Pierce 66. Even after having driven a couple Stutz Bearcats in excess of 70 mph, he told me that that Pierce 66 was the first and only big 1910s car that he found to be "scary fast" and "scary powerful"!

[mercer09]

shappie has had that for sale for yrs now.......................

 

nobodys putting out 650k............... even if it might be worth that.

[mercer09]

66 was the first and only big 1910s car that he found to be "scary fast" and "scary powerful"!

 

the brakes would most likely be the bigger problem

[Dave Wells]

10 minutes ago, mercer09 said:

66 was the first and only big 1910s car that he found to be "scary fast" and "scary powerful"!

 

the brakes would most likely be the bigger problem

 

How can that top stay attached to the car at 70 mph?  It must act like a parachute. Maybe it doesn't need good brakes after all.

 

 

Check Shappie's inventory...quite impressive:

https://www.classiccars.ws/sales/index.php

[Crusty Trucker]

It looks like the gear shift lever is located uncomfortably between the driver's legs and the brake lever (if that what it is) is just a few inches away. Is that the way it is, or is it the angle of the photo?

 

[60s GM Fan]

While its a very rare care doubt itll see more than 100-200k

[mechanician]

Those were primarily chauffeur driven cars, the comfort of the chauffeur was not a consideration.

 

Also, if this were 200k, it could be sold several times before lunchtime...

[wayne sheldon]

The car here is very special due its originality. Which in turn makes certain parts of the car quite fragile. I did see the car my friend drove, and it was not this one. It was a similar touring car, but had a more standard type top, and had been nicely restored (Grimy I am sure knows the car?). I seriously doubt that this car was ever driven near 70 mph. Unless of course that original top had been removed?

 

This particular car, I have never seen in person, although I feel like I have seen a hundred photos of it. This type of cape top puts some people off. They were never common on automobiles in this country. Often seen as impractical, most hobbyists will avoid such cars, and they become relegated to larger private collections or museums. Most people wanting a Pierce 66 want to have the biggest and most powerful 1910s era car at any tour or show that they attend. And that 66 will be it! 

Nobody wants to erase what makes this car so special (as it should be!), but as it is limits the conditions under which one should want to have the car out and exposed to weather or other hazards.

In a case like this, I don't think the condition of the car lowers its value in any significant amount? The current asking is probably reasonable? However its condition does limit the buyer's pool considerably. Clearly, it needs to be part of a sizable collection that will take good care of the car basically as it is. But the reality is that most large collections already have several "special" cars that are rarely if ever driven due to some unique rarity. Even in collections numbering near the hundreds of cars? How many cars should one want to own and display, but never drive?

Many high end collectors do like to drive many of their cars.

[Grimy]

3 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

The car here is very special due its originality. Which in turn makes certain parts of the car quite fragile. I did see the car my friend drove, and it was not this one. It was a similar touring car, but had a more standard type top, and had been nicely restored (Grimy I am sure knows the car?). I seriously doubt that this car was ever driven near 70 mph. Unless of course that original top had been removed?

 

This particular car, I have never seen in person, although I feel like I have seen a hundred photos of it. This type of cape top puts some people off. They were never common on automobiles in this country. Often seen as impractical, most hobbyists will avoid such cars, and they become relegated to larger private collections or museums. Most people wanting a Pierce 66 want to have the biggest and most powerful 1910s era car at any tour or show that they attend. And that 66 will be it! 

Nobody wants to erase what makes this car so special (as it should be!), but as it is limits the conditions under which one should want to have the car out and exposed to weather or other hazards.

In a case like this, I don't think the condition of the car lowers its value in any significant amount? The current asking is probably reasonable? However its condition does limit the buyer's pool considerably. Clearly, it needs to be part of a sizable collection that will take good care of the car basically as it is. But the reality is that most large collections already have several "special" cars that are rarely if ever driven due to some unique rarity. Even in collections numbering near the hundreds of cars? How many cars should one want to own and display, but never drive?

Many high end collectors do like to drive many of their cars.

Wayne, I haven't seen the car either but have seen these photos a number of times, including here.

 

A friend from MN inherited one of these from his father, and father and son had theirs from 1937 to 2010.  My friend drove his 66 (conventional touring car top) from MN to NE Calif for the Modoc Tour, then to Idaho to pick up his daughter and back to MN.  He said he cruised at 60 mph.  The nominal (taxable) 66 hp engine was 5"x7" bore & stroke for 825 cid out of 6 cylinders, with a redline of 1500 rpm.  My friend cruised his at 1200 rpm.  He affixed a temp sensor to the oil pan and could never get the oil hotter than 118*F on that trip; accordingly, he abandoned multi-grade oils in favor of straight weight 40 because he had no confidence in the oil temps at which viscosity improvers kicked in.

 

The specially made distributor on the left (exhaust side), with only half of the 12 spark plug holes filled, replaced the original magneto.  The square Westinghouse generator on the right side has a distributor on its aft end to fire the intake side plugs.  I'm a bit surprised that priming cups replaced spark plugs on the exhaust side, with both plugs over the intake valves--there's 5 inches of width to light up!

 

The PAS record for this car by serial number indicates a couple of rebodies over the years--about which I know absolutely nothing.  The record indicates it was originally a 7-p touring which it is now.  Perhaps the original body was located?

 

17 hours ago, Crusty Trucker said:

It looks like the gear shift lever is located uncomfortably between the driver's legs and the brake lever (if that what it is) is just a few inches away. Is that the way it is, or is it the angle of the photo?

As on my 1918 48-B-5, the shifter is to the right of the driver's right leg, but on long straight stretches it gets uncomfortable when you rest your leg against the knob!  That is indeed the brake lever, standing tall and proud--all the better to apply the external contracting brakes in addition to the pedal-operated internal expanding brakes.  The gauge in the seat of my pants tells me that the hand brake is about 3x as effective as the service brake.  For a "sincere" stop, you're on both of them 🙂 

 

As on some much later RHD cars, the accelerator is between the clutch and brake, necessitating sitting a bit side-saddle on long straight stretches unless you prefer to use the hand throttle.

 

These cars are equipped with clutch brakes, which means that we depress the clutch all the way to the toeboard ONLY at rest, for shifting to 1st or reverse.  While underway, depress clutch to one inch shy of the toeboard.  This takes a few minutes to get used to after you've been driving more conventional standard shift cars in the interim.

[wayne sheldon]

7 minutes ago, Grimy said:

The PAS record for this car by serial number indicates a couple of rebodies over the years--about which I know absolutely nothing.  The record indicates it was originally a 7-p touring which it is now.  Perhaps the original body was located?

 

I find that to be very interesting.

[alsancle]

23 hours ago, 60s GM Fan said:

While its a very rare care doubt itll see more than 100-200k

Based on what do you say that?

[rusty12]

"The PAS record for this car by serial number indicates a couple of rebodies over the years--about which I know absolutely nothing.  The record indicates it was originally a 7-p touring which it is now.  Perhaps the original body was located?" -Grimy

 

You are right about the "couple of rebodies" regarding this car.  However, there is no original body located. The body on this car is "pieces and parts" and new pieces made as well. The "paint" is "new-old" paint. Meaning, it is "new patina" paint.  Basically, my shoes are older than the paint on this car-and the overall body is newer than my shoes as well. 

 

Any Model 66 is a great car, even with an altered body. Price is between the seller and the buyer.

[TAKerry]

1 hour ago, rusty12 said:

"The PAS record for this car by serial number indicates a couple of rebodies over the years--about which I know absolutely nothing.  The record indicates it was originally a 7-p touring which it is now.  Perhaps the original body was located?" -Grimy

 

You are right about the "couple of rebodies" regarding this car.  However, there is no original body located. The body on this car is "pieces and parts" and new pieces made as well. The "paint" is "new-old" paint. Meaning, it is "new patina" paint.  Basically, my shoes are older than the paint on this car-and the overall body is newer than my shoes as well. 

 

Any Model 66 is a great car, even with an altered body. Price is between the seller and the buyer.

Are you referring to the OP car that has an asking price of 650k?

[rusty12]

Yes. My comments refer to this car that is shown here.

[BobinVirginia]

Would the car be more valuable with an older body that wasn’t original style? Say something done in the 20’s or 30’s tastefully done and documented. Or is it more valuable put back to as originally delivered even if the body panels aren’t original? 
I guess my question is, what’s the best option for a car like this? Rebuild to original form or leave it with the older body that was a replacement? 
 

[Grimy]

1 hour ago, BobinVirginia said:

Would the car be more valuable with an older body that wasn’t original style? Say something done in the 20’s or 30’s tastefully done and documented. Or is it more valuable put back to as originally delivered even if the body panels aren’t original? 
I guess my question is, what’s the best option for a car like this? Rebuild to original form or leave it with the older body that was a replacement? 
 

For Big Boys' Toys like a Pierce 66, provenance plus originality are essentially multipliers of "value," whose meaning in this instance I limit to "what a well-heeled buyer will pay."  The result of that is what seems to be the case here that a "patina" has been faked based on the word of a member/commenter.

 

The truth is that many Pierce 48s and 66s survived over a century only by being modified in their dotage to fit the needs of the time.  This was especially true during WW2 when their cast aluminum bodies were highly valued for scrap, yet they were still mechanically strong enough to serve as trucks or farm vehicles.  One restoration company went to the effort of recasting body tubs; more often, sheet aluminum over wooden framework replaced the removed/scrapped cast aluminum body tubs.  Bear in mind that there are many more Pierce limo side lamps extant today than closed cars to install them on.  Pre-scrappage, side lamps, big Klaxon horns, clocks, and tools were usually removed and retained.

 

A lesson here is that before someone lays down a significant part of his/her retirement for one of these cars, it behooves the buyer to do research by joining the appropriate single-marque club and/or contracting with a very marque-knowledgeable advisor.

 

Our dear mutual friend @edinmass is famous for decrying "bitsa" cars made of "floor sweepings."  In the circles where he moves, that may be a valid consideration for whether to buy, but my own circles I just want a reliable tour car even if it was put together from several donor cars many years ago.

[BobinVirginia]

@Grimy

Thanks for the added perspective! These cars are out of my league and it’s easy to forget how much a car could’ve changed over a century. It’s fun learning how to discern the top cars from the rest. 

[wayne sheldon]

Grimy mentioned this;

 

12 hours ago, Grimy said:

The truth is that many Pierce 48s and 66s survived over a century only by being modified in their dotage to fit the needs of the time.  This was especially true during WW2 when their cast aluminum bodies were highly valued for scrap, yet they were still mechanically strong enough to serve as trucks or farm vehicles.

 

For whatever it is worth? A few years ago, I saw pictures of this particular PA somewhere. The accompanying article said that the car was all "original". I had no reason to doubt that, in spite of the fact I had been told by a good friend that has a 66 that over half the currently existing model 66 PAs have recreated bodies due to the big powerful cars being turned into trucks of one sort or another in the car's later years.

If in fact this car was rebodied and the "patina" is fake? Then I am disappointed.

Regardless, any decent model 66 Pierce Arrow is an incredible car! If it is not a true original, then full speed ahead, get that thing out on the road and drive it like ED M stole it!

[BobinVirginia]

@wayne sheldon

I agree, I think any existing Pierce like this is amazing. I just hope that people selling these cars will be honest about the history of them. I hope this one finds a home for the right price and gets driven on tours all over!! 

[ericmac]

This is indeed an impressive car. I am in the "it's out of my league" club as well. Given that the body my be a repo, what would stop a new owner from having a new complete top assembly to interchange with the canopy top? It might make for a more comfortable car to tour in.

[edinmass]

While I know nothing about the 66 in this thread, any 48 or 66 BRASS Pierce with real provenance is easily a million dollar car. Fact is very, very few early Pierce Arrow’s are unmolested…….think in numbers of LESS than ten percent. 

[nsbrassnut]

Slightly off topic, but I think related.

 

Some of the comments remind me of the story of a yellow Mercer Type 35 Raceabout from a several years ago. One that blew everyone away when it was driven into the Hershey show on four old rotten old all white tires that barely held air with the cords showing. Worn and torn leather, grease stains all over, tarnished brass, but very straight body work. Described as "all original, never restored". A very, very impressive machine. But something did appear odd that I couldn't place at the time.

 

A few years later I heard more of the story from someone who was in a position to know. Short version, if the bottom of the pits in the paint are the same colour as the top, you might want to consider the finish "suspicious". 🤔

[wayne sheldon]

I never saw it myself, but I heard about that Mercer some years ago. From a longtime good friend.

[TAKerry]

I was big into antique motorcycles a number of years ago. When a couple of original harley board track bikes started hitting the 100k mark it was like 'BAM' they were everywhere. I would estimate that at least half maybe more of the pre 1920 harley and indian 'original bikes' floating around now were built within the last 20 years. 

Now, back to the regular scheduled program.

[edinmass]

5 hours ago, TAKerry said:

I was big into antique motorcycles a number of years ago. When a couple of original harley board track bikes started hitting the 100k mark it was like 'BAM' they were everywhere. I would estimate that at least half maybe more of the pre 1920 harley and indian 'original bikes' floating around now were built within the last 20 years. 

Now, back to the regular scheduled program.

 

Similar to any 60+ HP brass car. Basically if you big boy brass toy isn't in any of the early VMCCA, HCCA, and a few other assorted magazines(Early mens 30's,40's, and 50's.) ..........you're gonna have a hard time getting all the money for it. Look at the recent Simplex that was well over 4 miles, history and photos from NEW. My favorite question when looking at a major brass car is.....Who owns it. Simply put most of the great stuff is in long term holdings. Seldom do they get offered to the open market. I can think of one particular and famous car that is not real......but the current owner has convinced himself it is. 

[Grimy]

2 minutes ago, edinmass said:

 

Similar to any 60+ HP brass car. Basically if you big boy brass toy isn't in any of the early VMCCA, HCCA, and a few other assorted magazines(Early mens 30's,40's, and 50's.) ..........you're gonna have a hard time getting all the money for it. Look at the recent Simplex that was well over 4 miles, history and photos from NEW. My favorite question when looking at a major brass car is.....Who owns it. Simply put most of the great stuff is in long term holdings. Seldom do they get offered to the open market. I can think of one particular and famous car that is not real......but the current owner has convinced himself it is. 

Very true Ed.  The most sought after, properly enough, are those which survived the Depression and World War II in moldering estates and were cared for by the family's Faithful Oulde Retainers.  The rest, those now marginally achievable by mere mortals such as retired guvmint workers like me, survived by being useful during hard times and were put together post WWII from several cars with some recreated parts like body tubs.  I do agree with your earlier estimate of perhaps 10% of those extant today somehow survived in long-term ownership, and I agree that they do indeed deserve a significant price premium.