1937 packard copy good or bad

[31 LaSalle]

obviously started as a 1937 packard super 8

but was it from a convertible or a sedan is there any way to tell

plus does it represent an actual production model if so which model

[Rusty_OToole]

There should be a plate on the firewall that will tell what body it had originally, if it had a factory body. It could be that it had a custom body installed from new, or was rebodied within a few years of being built. Or it could be a recent whim. If you can find any ID on the firewall and get a photo I am sure the experts here can translate it for you.

[Brass is Best]

2 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

There should be a plate on the firewall that will tell what body it had originally, if it had a factory body. It could be that it had a custom body installed from new, or was rebodied within a few years of being built. Or it could be a recent whim. If you can find any ID on the firewall and get a photo I am sure the experts here can translate it for you.

The plate on the firewall will only have serial number and delivering dealer info. To know you would need the Packard build records. Unfortunately, most of them went in the furnace circa 1956. As Packard was closing other car companies sent spies to steal records and reports so a move was made to destroy all the records. 

[31 LaSalle]

2 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

There should be a plate on the firewall that will tell what body it had originally, if it had a factory body. It could be that it had a custom body installed from new, or was rebodied within a few years of being built. Or it could be a recent whim. If you can find any ID on the firewall and get a photo I am sure the experts here can translate it for you.

Hi Rusty_OToole
your correct the car was rebodied in 2017 my main query is does it represent a production packard of that era [1937]??

also what would the wheel base be on a 1937 packard super 8 ??

[auburnseeker]

Longer doors and a longer roof would really help the look.  Looks like a 4 door sedan that was cut down by the proportions it has.

[60FlatTop]

1 hour ago, auburnseeker said:

Looks like a 4 door sedan that was cut down by the proportions it has.

That was my first thought as well. It could have been done by a lesser known European shop when new but it doesn't have that European look. When I was growing up we had two body shop owners who would buy something and build it for themself in a similar style.

 

Here in the States I would buy a car like that and enjoy the engineering and style but I would stay away from any official congregation of automotive aficionados just to avoid their commentary.  I have a 1980s car with extensive changes that I enjoy often on country rides. No shows but I took it to a small cruise night twice last year. I feel lucky when they walk past and don't even sense a car is there.

[Rusty_OToole]

There was a fad of boat tail speedsters in the US in the late 20s and early 30s. Last production model 1936 Auburn, and that was just to use up leftover 1932 bodies.

 

Don't know of any Packard boat tails except one built for an executive. In other words your car represents someone's fancy not in any way related to a production body.

[Rusty_OToole]

You can have a lot of fun with a car like that as long as you don't try to pass it off as something it is not. In other words, if anyone asks, it was rebodied in 2017 and is not an original 1937 body. Time may lend enchantment just as cars that were raced and modified in the fifties and sixties, are now accepted as historical.

[Xander Wildeisen]

Cars like this show how nice the proportions on a Auburn speedster are. I do not understand how so many people can build a boat tail and have the end result just not quite right.

[alsancle]

I see we have dualing threads.  Bad mojo.

 

As I said in the other thread.  Boattails are hard to pull off.   Matt disagrees but we can't have a pissing contest with pictures cause we definitely offend people.

 

 

[31 LaSalle]

1 hour ago, 60FlatTop said:

That was my first thought as well. It could have been done by a lesser known European shop when new but it doesn't have that European look. When I was growing up we had two body shop owners who would buy something and build it for themself in a similar style.

 

Here in the States I would buy a car like that and enjoy the engineering and style but I would stay away from any official congregation of automotive aficionados just to avoid their commentary.  I have a 1980s car with extensive changes that I enjoy often on country rides. No shows but I took it to a small cruise night twice last year. I feel lucky when they walk past and don't even sen se a car is there.

IT was rebodied [ back end ] in the uk 2017 

I totally agree with your comments regarding the engineering and style which looks to be well done

[31 LaSalle]

1 hour ago, Rusty_OToole said:

You can have a lot of fun with a car like that as long as you don't try to pass it off as something it is not. In other words, if anyone asks, it was rebodied in 2017 and is not an original 1937 body. Time may lend enchantment just as cars that were raced and modified in the fifties and sixties, are now accepted as historical.

The front of the car to the end of the doors is standard 1937 packard

[1912Staver]

I don't think this particular car looks all that good. One of the best of the lot in my opinion is the Robbins boat tail on Stutz Vertical 8's. By 1937 Boat Tails were out of fashion.

[Xander Wildeisen]

[alsancle]

12 minutes ago, Xander Wildeisen said:

Ralph Roberts and LeBaron knew what they were doing.   As did Alan Leamy and Gordon Buehring on the Auburn Speedster which is the gold standard.   Everything else is lesser and most home jobs are bad.

[alsancle]

For example,  I'm a big fan of these but plenty of guys disparage them because they don't look as cool as the Auburn.

 

[Xander Wildeisen]

[31 LaSalle]

35 minutes ago, Xander Wildeisen said:

 

38 minutes ago, Xander Wildeisen said:

 

Now that's a Boat Tail Stunning { IN MY OPINION } 

[Xander Wildeisen]

[Xander Wildeisen]

[alsfarms]

I think the gray Packard is an excellent way of saving another car from being broken down for junk. I suggest as has been stated go....drive....enjoy......but don't try to make it into something that it's not! 20 years from now, if the story stays correct and pure, it will have developed its own special "Provenance" that can stay with it in an honorable way.

Al

Edited May 26 by alsfarms
Clarity (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

If you need documentation contact me. I have the best Notary Public money can buy.

[Laughing Coyote]

4 hours ago, auburnseeker said:

Looks like a 4 door sedan that was cut down by the proportions it has.

I think so too. Doesn't quite look right with the short door.

[alsfarms]

You know what.....

I agree, Provenance should start at the bottom line of this story. If I bought that gray Packard, a notarized statement of authenticity, (what ever it be), would certainly be a nice document to keep with the car. Good idea ..... I wish I had thought of that!

Al

[Xander Wildeisen]

I here by state that this car is not only certified to be an authentic creation. It also comes with this document stating so.

[alsfarms]

Can you add the date of the build and builder. The foundation for future Provenance is in the works which will save a potential buyer a bunch of stress while allowing him to enjoy. The seller is also kept honest in how the Gray Packard is represented to a potential buyer.

Al

[alsfarms]

Xander......

I bet, being built in the UK, it is not laid up with fiberglass, a fabrication medium, used to often on our side of the Pond. I prefer all steel or all aluminum. I would put money on the idea that this gray Packard is all steel.

Al

Edited May 26 by alsfarms
Clarity (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Also.....

Looking at more typical automotive designs, our friends on the other side of the pond have their own eye for what is accepted as "Good" that are just a bit different from our Tastes that come from the west side of the pond. This gray Packard, to me simply shows the influence of the designers/builders and where they live. I actually like a good portion of British design when looking at offerings from Alvis......(Some designs more than others).

Al

[Xander Wildeisen]

I am a custom car guy at heart, so I do like seeing creations like this Packard. The boat tail design is a tough one, as stated above by others, many have tried, most fail. Very few flow from front to back. When viewing them from ether the front or the back. A builder had a job, a customer was made happy, that's all that matters in the end. 

[Rusty_OToole]

What a real Packard boat tail looks like, a 1930 734

 

And a 1934 Packard by LeBaron

 

[60FlatTop]

10 hours ago, 31 LaSalle said:

but was it from a convertible or a sedan is there any way to tell

I would say it was a sedan originally. The convertible wind wing would have been shaped differently like this:

 

Your car, if you buy it, looks like a fabricated stainless piece. It is a nice touch.

 

The car I show here is one of the Hooper art cars.  Right before the COVID plague it was listed for sale in Bangor, Pennsylvania. I was interested in it but lost track with the international shenanigans over the last few years. No luck yet but Hoop already gave it fame and provenance. All I would need to do is provide documentation, as tongue in cheek as it might be... for a Body by Hoop car.

 

And always remember, the best tall tales are the ones that give the expert pause to consider if it is true or not. As my wife has said so many times "You know they believed you, don't you".

[prewarnut]

I think the best way to judge a boat tail is the 3/4 rear view from an elevated, standing height like with the blue Packard 12. The pics of the Auburn and Amilcar are similar. Ignoring the RR all three of these show a belt-line that is a very, very slightly curved and with fluidity backwards to the end. All have a different rear but all are designed with integrity. The rear shot (not quite from the same vantage) of the subject car looks more like my Cub Scout Pinewood Derby attempt. At least the color scheme is great.

[Xander Wildeisen]

Well said prewarnut.

[alsfarms]

I agree and also noted the lacking slight curve from the door opening to the point of the tail.

Al

[alsfarms]

31 LaSalle, 

Your initial question, just for conversation or is this gray Packard actually for sale and something you are taking a serious look at?

Al

[58L-Y8]

Definitely a long aftermarket re-body effort with all the hallmarks that identify these as amateur efforts: stiff details, little surface development, poor proportions, clumsy areas.  Few large boat-tail designs come off aesthetically pleasing.  The gold standard is the Duesenberg J 'taper tail' by Weymann,  but none of these re-body builders seem to know of it or that emulating it closely would be their best gambit.

Edited May 27 by 58L-Y8
Added photo for reference (see edit history)

[31Buick96S]

13 hours ago, 31 LaSalle said:

Hi Rusty_OToole
your correct the car was rebodied in 2017 my main query is does it represent a production packard of that era [1937]??

also what would the wheel base be on a 1937 packard super 8 ??

I believe that the Packard boat tail speedsters heyday was late 20’s, early 30’s. Every one of later vintage that I have seen was restyled at a later date. A 1937 5 passenger Super 8 had a wheelbase of 127”. I have seen reference to a 134” convertible sedan and limousines of 139”.

[31 LaSalle]

7 hours ago, alsfarms said:

31 LaSalle, 

Your initial question, just for conversation or is this gray Packard actually for sale and something you are taking a serious look at?

Al

HI alsfarms

yes this car is for sale and i am interested 

I am trying to gather some history of the conversion

unfortunately the seller thinks it has a high value as he advertises it as the only one in the world 

difficult car to value [anybody care to put a price on it]???

its overall condition is excellent ,engine and running gear rebuilt

[bryankazmer]

He’s right about it being the only one in the world, but that doesn’t automatically translate to higher value.   If he doesn’t realize it’s worth less than a factory bodied convertible Victoria, you have little chance of reaching an agreement

[31 LaSalle]

52 minutes ago, bryankazmer said:

He’s right about it being the only one in the world, but that doesn’t automatically translate to higher value.   If he doesn’t realize it’s worth less than a factory bodied convertible Victoria, you have little chance of reaching an agreement

My Thoughts exactly

but still leaves the question how do you value the car 

I would rather buy the car at an auction as I think that would reflect a more accurate valuation