Ardsley automobile

Rivka Lela · May 4

Wikipedia has an article on the Ardsley automobile which existed at most from 1905 to 1906.

It states it was built in Yonkers NY and the citation is a print ad showing an address of "Broadway and 50th St", no city mentioned. In the "talk" section I've pointed out that there is no such address in Yonkers; but anyone in the area seeing that address would assume it's Manhattan. Which is a much better place for a showroom!

There is no citation for it being manufactured in Yonkers (quite believable). I would be delighted to find more information about the car and where it was manufactured, and to be able to cite a source for the information.

See Wikipedia "Ardsley" (automobile), my comments are on the "talk" page where article improvements are discussed.

Rivke Reid

1941 Plymouth

Belchertown MA

late of Yonkers NY IMG_2445.jpeg.387fb9feeee21c2c4a2d2d5ef78e5b90.jpeg

1912Staver · May 4

The Standard Catalog { a much better resource than Wikipedia for U.S. car makes } has a listing for Ardsley. Briefly says they were a group of Yonkers businessmen who built about 75 vehicles. Rated at 35/40 HP so a reasonably powerful car, but only 100 inch wheel base.

wayne sheldon · May 5

In 1905, a hundred inch wheelbase was a fairly large car! That is right about the time that cars started getting bigger quickly. I don't offhand recall the wheelbase measurement, but a good friend has a 1906 Locomobile, one of the largest American cars manufactured that year. It isn't much over a hundred inches. The comparable 1907 model was a few inches longer.

Several European automobiles were quite large by 1904. There are a couple Benz and big Renault automobiles that run in the pre 1905 London to Brighton Rally many years. Their wheelbases are well over a hundred inches.

Most American built cars before 1904 had wheelbases a little over ninety inches or less. My circa 1900 gasoline carriage has a wheelbase of sixty inches!

1912Staver · May 5

Hi Wayne, I must admit I have little experience with cars as old as 1906. Most I have been around are at least 1911 - 1912 or even newer. By 1912 100 inches isn't a small car, but isn't all that big either. But I can see where in the 1905 -06 time frame it would have been considered a good size car.

Edited May 5 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

Reynard · May 5

7 hours ago, Rivka Lela said:

Ardsley" (automobile), my comments are on the "talk" page where article improvements are discussed.

Rivke Reid

Where can this "talk" page be found? Am I missing something on the forum?

E_Johnson · May 5

Edited May 5 by E_Johnson
additional information (see edit history)

Fordy · May 5

4 hours ago, Reynard said:

Where can this "talk" page be found? Am I missing something on the forum?

Wikipedia was mentioned in the comment about the "talk page". Learning to read everything and taking it all in is a good start.

wayne sheldon · May 5

8 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

Hi Wayne, I must admit I have little experience with cars as old as 1906. Most I have been around are at least 1911 - 1912 or even newer. By 1912 100 inches isn't a small car, but isn't all that big either. But I can see where in the 1905 -06 time frame it would have been considered a good size car.

While they are not practical as an "only" antique automobile, due to their limitations (size, speed, hills?), I have always been really attracted to the really early cars. I have had good friends for many years with pre1905 cars, and have known several people that have been on the London to Brighton Run? Fate and family have made it nearly impossible for me to really have or play with such things. Some years back, I did manage to fall into one of the things I really wanted, that being a really early pre-production car. The price was more than I should have paid, but manageable. And when my situation got worse and I had to sell several good cars, I wasn't able to get enough interest in the early project, so I still have it.

I still hope my family situation can change while I might have a few good years to work on the projects I have. Fitting together the puzzle pieces of the gasoline carriage is high on my list. It suffered from some bad "restoration" a couple/few decades before I got it, and needs someone dedicated to make it as correctly done as can reasonably be done. Most of the important pieces are there and in surprisingly good condition (I seriously doubt it was ever driven more than a few miles?). Several pieces are missing (including the single valve actuating mechanism), and a few weaknesses in the engine need to be addressed to make it actually drivable.

31plymouth · May 5

A co-worker Ken Mains at AT&T did an extensive research paper on all of the automobile manufacturers of Westchester County NY This was done before his use of word processors,computers and the internet.

Ardsleypage148.jpg.ae334009dcca930636a5fdfce3611d0e.jpg

Edited May 5 by 31plymouth
Added files (see edit history)

Rivka Lela · May 6

Many thanks for all the references I was unable to find on my own! I'm going over them to try and improve the Wikipedia article. To view current article go to en.wikipedia.org and search "Ardsley (automobile)". The talk page is a link from there. And yeah, familiar with Ardsley and Ardsley-on-Hudson NY, I assume they took the name from the latter (but just a guess) as it was a real high tone joint back then.

1912Staver · May 6

I am curious why you are interested in a wikipedea article for a very obscure 1906 automobile ? One that as far as I am aware has no known survivors. { please correct me if I am wrong }

Like I mentioned earlier the Standard Catalog is the go to for pretty much everyone in the Vintage car hobby. United States makes at least.

Two of the best known American car researchers , Beverly Rae Kimes, Henry Austin Clark spent many years doing the research necessary for the book. Works like this are never 100% complete , but at over 1600 pages , and I believe something like 5000 makes { just U.S. made cars, and just the pre war time period } it is a unequaled reference . There is also a post war volume.

Wikipedia is very good for quite a few subjects, but vehicle makers are such a broad topic. With a great reference already available why try to re - invent the wheel ?

Edited May 6 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

ABear · May 6

9 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

I am curious why you are interested in a wikipedea article for a very obscure 1906 automobile ? One that as far as I am aware has no known survivors. { please correct me if I am wrong }

Like I mentioned earlier the Standard Catalog is the go to for pretty much everyone in the Vintage car hobby. United States makes at least.

Two of the best known American car researchers , Beverly Rae Kimes, Henry Austin Clark spent many years doing the research necessary for the book. Works like this are never 100% complete , but at over 1600 pages , and I believe something like 5000 makes { just U.S. made cars, and just the pre war time period } it is a unequaled reference . There is also a post war volume.

Wikipedia is very good for quite a few subjects, but vehicle makers are such a broad topic. With a great reference already available why try to re - invent the wheel ?

Not everyone owns a Standard Catalog of cars, let alone even know about it, not to mention is often out of print and unavailable and when available to buy, it is expensive for a one off causal search..

I do own a copy, it is large, bulky and yet with all the massive time put into it with research put, it is often very incomplete for many lesser known vehicles. It is an awesome reference book but it is not infallible either.

Pretty much everyone does however own a smartphone, tablet or PC and is fully aware of Wiki pages and the search is free.. The downside to Wiki is the fact that anyone can add anything they want with and without references to back it up making it a bit questionable at times on content accuracy. But once again, everyone in the world with Internet access has instant access 24/7/365.

While I don't 100% trust everything posted on Wiki pages, I don't see what it hurts to try to add to or correct information there for the car community sake. I say go for it if you have more info or corrections!

1912Staver · May 6

Agreed, it doesn't hurt. But the value in the Standard Catalog is the entries for the obscure makes. I agree that the information is sometimes incomplete for these obscure makes, but at least there is something for almost the most obscure make imaginable. I just can't see people taking the time to make wiki pages for the thousands of oddball makes that the Standard Catalog has entries for.

My biggest complaint is the Standard Catalog omits the Canadian makes. At least we have something similar with The Cars of Canada. But that book is long out of print and often quite expensive when found.

Walt G · May 6

15 minutes ago, ABear said:

It is an awesome reference book but it is not infallible either.

That book was researched by its author's 45-50 years ago. Since then new "old" information has come to light. It is still the best reference to go to for information based on FACT from original publications during the era the cars were built. I was present when it was being researched and helped Bev Kimes and Austin Clark do so. It took years to compile what they did and it is accurate as mentioned. When will a more complete volume with more information appear that apparently to some is missing - NEVER at least within the life time of those reading this now. It is always easy to point a finger and say - they didn't mention this or that. But few if any do a complete supplement to what exists to make the story complete in the critics eyes and opinion.

CChinn · May 6

Would a digital version of the Standard Catalogue which is accessible on-line and can be easily searched help? Is it even possible?

ABear · May 6

9 minutes ago, Walt G said:

It is always easy to point a finger and say - they didn't mention this or that. But few if any do a complete supplement to what exists to make the story complete in the critics eyes and opinion.

Not pointing fingers.

I am however pointing out that hard copies based on research 50yrs-75yrs ago will have missed a lot of information that has come to recent light.

I am not against having a hard copy as I have bought a Standard Cat of Cars, but there are often gaps in info in hard print that I have found on my vehicle that yrs of Internet searching has filled in for me.

There has been many advances with Internet, there has been many old automotive industry periodicals and trade papers that were donated to large libraries that have been digitized into PDFs and fully made available online for research..

Good example of this is the HathiTrust Foundation that you most likely have never heard about.

You can view many of the Horseless age periodicals that were published from 1895-1918

You can follow THIS LINK to the Horseless age pages.

Another example is The Hub which was published 1886-1927

You can follow THIS LINK to view The Hub..

That is only two examples of documents that the authors of the Standard Cat of Cars could have used in research and that would have been only available at specific libraries that had them.. Now that info is readily available to everyone on the Internet.

The HathiTrust Foundation has much, much more available but you really have to dig through the massive amounts of data and sometimes you really have to tweek the search terms to get results.

ABear · May 6

4 minutes ago, CChinn said:

Would a digital version of the Standard Catalogue which is accessible on-line and can be easily searched help? Is it even possible?

Not aware of it being available online, not saying it isn't possible but that all depends on the authors/publishers agreements with copyrights hanging in the balance.. Even though I have a hard copy, I am aware that I cannot copy and paste anything from that book without getting copyright permission to do so as pretty much any other works.

There is a lot of cost in labor, research, cataloging, editing, layout, publishing that makes publishing something as vast as this a risky venture online..

For raw online research, best source I have found has been from HathiTrust Foundation which I have linked to in my last post were you can read a lot of early automotive history as it happened..

edinmass · May 6

Rivke....did you buy the 41 that was for sale at the lawn mower shop last year in town? It was a coupe.

Yonkers has had many streets removed and renamed, just last week I was researching an address for a company there in the 20's and 30's. The book was assembled decades before on line information became accessible and it literally was the Bible of car history for decades, and still is. Entire new companies have come to light with local historians posting the details that would have been impossible to find source material anywhere else at the time. Knowing both the authors of the book, I can assure you they were the best automotive historians IN THE WORLD AT THE TIME IT WAS WRITTEN. I have published articles with Bev Kimes back in the 80's and 90's. Her knowledge of the automobile we second to NONE.

PS- Im from Ludlow......

Edited May 8 by edinmass (see edit history)

8E45E · May 6

2 hours ago, Walt G said:

That book was researched by its author's 45-50 years ago. Since then new "old" information has come to light. It is still the best reference to go to for information based on FACT from original publications during the era the cars were built. I was present when it was being researched and helped Bev Kimes and Austin Clark do so. It took years to compile what they did and it is accurate as mentioned. When will a more complete volume with more information appear that apparently to some is missing - NEVER at least within the life time of those reading this now. It is always easy to point a finger and say - they didn't mention this or that. But few if any do a complete supplement to what exists to make the story complete in the critics eyes and opinion.

I also don't expect this one to be updated, either, considering both authors are no longer with us.

Even then, original publications are sometimes incorrect, showing cars that were artist's renderings only, and either different in appearance from the illustration, or not being produced at all.

Craig

Walt G · May 6

2 hours ago, 8E45E said:

Even then, original publications are sometimes incorrect, showing cars that were artist's renderings only, and either different in appearance from the illustration, or not being produced at all.

Both Beverly and Austin were well aware of that fact and did not use anything that they felt was "iffy" so far as information and images. I was there as mentioned when the research was being done. Much from periodicals of the day. All of that ( both bound and loose issues) were donated to the Henry Ford Museum while Austin was still alive. It is there still. A huge variety of publications from all over the USA as well as Europe ( which were looked at for reference to see American cars in Europe) SO if this volume is lacking where is the updated information in print by those that look down upon all of this as "that was just what available then" and look to online references - are the online references totally and completely the last word and correct??

8E45E · May 7

15 hours ago, Walt G said:

Both Beverly and Austin were well aware of that fact and did not use anything that they felt was "iffy" so far as information and images. I was there as mentioned when the research was being done. Much from periodicals of the day. All of that ( both bound and loose issues) were donated to the Henry Ford Museum while Austin was still alive. It is there still. A huge variety of publications from all over the USA as well as Europe ( which were looked at for reference to see American cars in Europe) SO if this volume is lacking where is the updated information in print by those that look down upon all of this as "that was just what available then" and look to online references - are the online references totally and completely the last word and correct??

Back when that book was first published, a good many of the employees, both 'white collar' and 'blue collar' workers were still alive, and could usually be depended upon to confirm any supposed discrepancies in what was actually produced vs. what was cataloged. That would have been worth more than any online resource today. That being said, most of those former employees may not have had knowledge of what was being built at d'Ieteren in Belgium, or Sodomka in Czechoslovakia, and as I have stated previously, what has helped further additional knowledge of what was produced in Europe in the early 20th Century was both the fall of the Iron Curtain, and the rise of the Internet. Both those events occurred years after Standard Catalog was published.

Craig

Edited May 7 by 8E45E (see edit history)

Walt G · May 7

Craig

The criticism that I found upsetting ( obviously) was about the books contents - it is a book about American cars , not about European cars. Clark's collection did have a tremendous amount on European cars and I agree that the ability to confirm what happened there depends upon employees that survived. BUT again the point as I see it is critical of what is not in the book on American cars cars that are not mentioned. It is not a book on worldwide cars.

I am done trying to make a point, I have stated what I know took place when the book was being researched over many years as I was there, and the research went beyond what Austin had in his collection. I will no longer comment on this topic nor most others - you are the expert I look forward to your on going mention of all things and expertise (?) You must have access to so much more of the original material then I have ever seen in person , the original matter/paperwork/periodicals...................

8E45E · May 7

I will clarify that d'Ieteren and Sodomka bodied many cars of American automobile chassis which is why I cited them. Of course there were more than them in Europe at the time who placed their bodies on US chassis.

As well Ford had assembly plants in Europe, building Model T's and A's. Think Model T and Model A experts know every last thing on a car that was built in England? They are still finding out new things that what went on at the Canadian plant, with the differences between US production and Canadian production.

Craig

Edited May 7 by 8E45E (see edit history)

1912Staver · May 7

For a time when I was first researching my Staver Chicago I belonged to the Horseless Carriage Club Foundation. On line access to a really great collection of periodicals . Similar to what I am seeing in the HathiTrust .

The most useful feature I found with the Foundation library was the indexing and search function. It makes finding information about a specific make reasonably easy. Saves hours of leafing through individual magazines to find the articles and advertisements you are specifically interested in. It would be great to have the time to review each individual magazine cover to cover, issue by issue ,year by year, but most of us have only so much time available for such activities. I have not explored the HathiTrust pages enough to see if a similar index is part of the site.

Biggest downside to HCCA Foundation membership is that it is fairly expensive. Probably not a problem if you are say writing a book, but a bit of a bite each year if you are just a hobbyist like me.

Edited May 7 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

AHa · May 7

One might do well to remember the Standard Catalog, while extensively researched, was published a long time ago and there is no one to update it now. Also, it was a private effort. There is new information being found on a regular basis today, information unavailable at the time, yet there is no way to update the catalog. It was and still is the definitive research volume but obviously lacking. If there was an online source, that could be updated regularly, why not do so? Mistakes will always be made, regardless of how much time and effort is put into not making mistakes. My two cents.

Walt G · May 7

the ones to update it are the people who are complaining about it. Let them make their notes ( most taken from the online history - dare I say facts?? ) Let them take the time and "publish" their results and also list where and how that information is credited. Lots of noise about a lot of effort that is being put down. Start a thread here perhaps titled "UPDATES" . Will that happen? unlikely as they are to busy complaining ...............

1912Staver · May 7

Not saying you are wrong Walt, not at all ! In my case I have a fair bit of Staver Chicago material. Much more than the Standard Catalog entry. But who would be interested ? There are only 4 complete cars surviving , plus my 40 H.P. chassis. And of the 4 complete cars one is a one off prototype with no real similarity to any of the production cars. So really only 3 cars remaining. Of those 3 one is in a museum so just a static artifact { beautiful car , but who knows when it will ever see the road again }, one is in long term storage owned by Staver family members who are not active with it as far as I know. And one somewhat modified 30 H.P. Plus my chassis. So a very limited pool of people who would today be interested in anything to do with Staver Chicago. Really just one of those thousands of arcane makes that made little impact on the automobile world when new, and are all but forgotten today. I doubt there are even 10 people in the world who are interested.

playswithbrass · May 7

Getting back to the original question. Is this yet another random questioner that gets the whole forum giving lots of advice and they themselves never reappearing? It is so nice when someone comes back and is grateful for any help they may have gleaned from the answers to their post

31plymouth · May 7

On 5/6/2024 at 8:56 AM, Rivka Lela said:

Many thanks for all the references I was unable to find on my own! I'm going over them to try and improve the Wikipedia article. To view current article go to en.wikipedia.org and search "Ardsley (automobile)". The talk page is a link from there. And yeah, familiar with Ardsley and Ardsley-on-Hudson NY, I assume they took the name from the latter (but just a guess) as it was a real high tone joint back then.

51 minutes ago, playswithbrass said:

Getting back to the original question. Is this yet another random questioner that gets the whole forum giving lots of advice and they themselves never reappearing? It is so nice when someone comes back and is grateful for any help they may have gleaned from the answers to their post

I think she replied but it kept on going

8E45E · May 7

2 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

In my case I have a fair bit of Staver Chicago material. Much more than the Standard Catalog entry. But who would be interested ? There are only 4 complete cars surviving , plus my 40 H.P. chassis. And of the 4 complete cars one is a one off prototype with no real similarity to any of the production cars. So really only 3 cars remaining. Of those 3 one is in a museum so just a static artifact { beautiful car , but who knows when it will ever see the road again }, one is in long term storage owned by Staver family members who are not active with it as far as I know. And one somewhat modified 30 H.P. Plus my chassis. So a very limited pool of people who would today be interested in anything to do with Staver Chicago. Really just one of those thousands of arcane makes that made little impact on the automobile world when new, and are all but forgotten today. I doubt there are even 10 people in the world who are interested.

I'd love to learn more about these small automobile manufacturers from 100+ years ago. But when they maybe only produced less than 100 hardly makes it worth writing a book about, as it no doubt would not make its author any money. One of my favorite magazines is The Automobile from England which has articles on these obscure makes (including American) that maybe made only 25 - 50 cars, and if they are fortunate enough, either a survivor, or a restored example to present photos of.

Craig

Edited May 7 by 8E45E (see edit history)

1912Staver · May 7

According to the Standard Catalog, Staver is said to have produced something in excess of 6000 cars. I personally find that hard to believe. Only 3 complete cars surviving out of 6000 ? I know the serial numbers of all 4 cars, my chassis plus the 3 intact cars, including the car now owned by the Staver family which is a 1914, so right at the end of production . All are numbered a lot lower than the 6000's.

There are two books about the Teetor family, the people who produced the Teetor Hartley engine used in Staver Chicago , American Underslung , Pilot and a couple others. Both are good reads, but don't devote very much space to any specific details about technical aspects of the engines. A Teetor family member was also Staver's design engineer. Hemmings Classic Cars magazine had a 2 part article about Staver Chicago several years ago. Staver actually had quite a big factory , but they were primarily a maker of horse drawn vehicles.

Edited May 7 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

Steve Moskowitz · May 7

So I sit almost daily in a building with over 3,000,000 documents. Expecting anyone to know the contents of everything is not rational yet Beverly and Austin made a gargantuan effort to compile one of the most useful books every published for our hobby. I use my copy, have several editions, all the time. How they pulled off this catalog is almost beyond my comprehension. They did it without the benefit of computers and in an era where a lot of library materials were simply not readily available to the hobby. A magnificent book and an important one.

We have material on all sorts of obscure makes and while people are not standing in line to research these vehicles, you might be surprised how many historians and writers are constantly looking for rare material. AACA Makes all of its archives available to the public.

Those of us who enjoy the history and research are well aware that documentation can be misleading at times, it may be incomplete and new facts come to light. It is up to all of us to help keep the record straight and support those that are making a conscious effort to save our history.

8E45E · May 7

1 hour ago, Steve Moskowitz said:

Those of us who enjoy the history and research are well aware that documentation can be misleading at times, it may be incomplete and new facts come to light. It is up to all of us to help keep the record straight and support those that are making a conscious effort to save our history.

Well said!

There is no need to immediately jump all over someone who finds new information until they find out the fact(s) for themselves to either confirm or refute their discovery.

Craig

AHa · May 8

This was my point earlier. As great as the Standard Catalog of American cars is, and Beverly Rae Kimes and Austin Clark made a herculean effort to include everything that could be known, new information is continually coming to light that cannot be added. The OP was trying to update an online version in the form of Wikipedia that can be added to by anyone. If only there was an online version of the Standard Catalog of American Cars. Oh, wait, maybe there is.

Ardsley automobile

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