starter spins out on 63 oldsmobile

[timecapsule]

I was helping a friend the other day who was having starting issues.  He bought a new solenoid and asked if I would install it for him.  I had no idea what the issue was at the time but I agreed to do the job.  I removed the old starter and solenoid out and replaced the solenoid and reinstalled them back in the car.  He tried to fire it up and the starter motor spun out.  The second time it engaged and started the car. He said before it took about 4 tries to get the starter to engage and start the car.  I pulled off the starter/solenoid again and he took them to an auto electric place to be tested.  They said the starter is good and both the old solenoid and the new solenoid were both good. 

I don't really know too much about the car, but he said he did just replace the battery last week.  The wiring at the solenoid was tight and in good condition.

 

I'm dumb as a stick at auto electrics but I'm willing to perform a few tests, but I'm not sure where to start.

[Andy J]

Does the solenoid have oblong holes that the mounting bolts go through? If so,you have about 1/4" adjustment to slide the solenoid back and forth on the starter. I've had the same problem on my '51 Pontiac starter. Just keep moving it slightly until you get it to work. I've had more problems with starters than anything else on my car. Old ones,rebuilt ones,and new ones all gave me headaches.

[timecapsule]

9 minutes ago, Andy J said:

Does the solenoid have oblong holes that the mounting bolts go through? If so,you have about 1/4" adjustment to slide the solenoid back and forth on the starter. I've had the same problem on my '51 Pontiac starter. Just keep moving it slightly until you get it to work. I've had more problems with starters than anything else on my car. Old ones,rebuilt ones,and new ones all gave me headaches.

No, it has round holes that match up to one another

[Andy J]

I don't know what to tell you. I'm not much of a hand at electrical things myself. All I know is by trial and error.I do know that they can really piss me off sometimes.

[timecapsule]

Googling tells me that it might be a battery connection or bad ground.  Like I said he just replaced the battery and so I'm assuming he made sure both battery cable ends were clean and well connected.  He's kind of meticulous that way.

However, he does have a master kill switch coming off the battery.  He always flips that switch when he brings the car back in the garage after going for a drive.  I'm thinking I should maybe disconnect and bypass that kill switch.  There may be a bad connection inside it.   

I'm wondering if there is a bad connection in that switch, if that might have been the cause of the old battery dying.  Maybe it wasn't getting a full charge back from the alternator.  Just a thought. 

[John348]

By pass the switch! 

[Marty Roth]

If it is a cheaper version of Kill Switch, it may be dropping voltage, and temporarily bypassing it can help your evaluation. 

If that solves it, then get a good quality switch -

also go back and check ALL GROUNDS, including where anything was freshly painted

 

https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Two-Post-Battery-Master-Disconnect-Isolation-Safety-Kill-Switch,2380.html?utm_medium=CSEGoogle&utm_source=CSE&utm_campaign=CSEGOOGLE&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA-P-rBhBEEiwAQEXhH7xExRBtkUHrKtsAXXl5PfEvqLLOJqe_shsc3NlWUNUw_zgyXgO1nRoCK3YQAvD_BwE

[timecapsule]

17 minutes ago, Marty Roth said:

If it is a cheaper version of Kill Switch, it may be dropping voltage, and temporarily bypassing it can help your evaluation. 

If that solves it, then get a good quality switch -

also go back and check ALL GROUNDS, including where anything was freshly painted

 

https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Two-Post-Battery-Master-Disconnect-Isolation-Safety-Kill-Switch,2380.html?utm_medium=CSEGoogle&utm_source=CSE&utm_campaign=CSEGOOGLE&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA-P-rBhBEEiwAQEXhH7xExRBtkUHrKtsAXXl5PfEvqLLOJqe_shsc3NlWUNUw_zgyXgO1nRoCK3YQAvD_BwE

The switch you linked to is the one that he has.  While I'm back under the car reconnecting the starter I'll look around for where the ground connects to the block as well.

[EmTee]

It sounds like a bad starter drive.  The pinion gear has an overrunning clutch that eventually wears out and will sometimes 'spin-out' or not engage to allow the pinion to turn the flywheel.  Old timers used to call this part the "Bendix", probably due to the fact that Bendix was one of the suppliers.  You'll need to remove and disassemble the starter to install the new starter drive gear.

 

https://www.stockwiseauto.com/standard-motor-products-sdn2-starter-drive?Year=1963&Make=Oldsmobile&Model=98

 

[timecapsule]

3 minutes ago, EmTee said:

It sounds like a bad starter drive.  The pinion gear has an overrunning clutch that eventually wears out and will sometimes 'spin-out' or not engage to allow the pinion to turn the flywheel.  Old timers used to call this part the "Bendix", probably due to the fact that Bendix was one of the suppliers.  You'll need to remove and disassemble the starter to install the new starter drive gear.

 

https://www.stockwiseauto.com/standard-motor-products-sdn2-starter-drive?Year=1963&Make=Oldsmobile&Model=98

 

I'm one of those old timers, When I heard it spin out, after installing the new solenoid,  I even suggested that it might be the "bendex".  However the auto electric place he took it too is really well known for their quality work.  They spend a lot of their day working on starters and generators and have been in business at the same location since the 40's.  So if they say the starter and both old and new solenoids are good, I'm inclined to take their word for it.

[EmTee]

The solenoids are probably good.  I think it's the starter drive that is 'spinning-out'.  The overrunning clutch has a pawl that wears and/or gets sticky with age and will sometimes not lock-up to turn the pinion.  The classic symptom is turning the key and hearing "zing", then try again - "zing" and the third time it catches and the car starts! 

 

Be sure to check (or just change) the armature bushing when changing the starter drive...

 

Edited December 19, 2023 by EmTee (see edit history)

[Bloo]

Even some car manufacturers have occasionally called that thing a Bendix. It isn't. It is an overrunning clutch, sometimes called a "starter drive". Bendix did make some of them. Bendix also made radios and carburetors.

 

A "Bendix" is a mechanical device that engages and disengages the gear for you. When you have one, there is no need for a starter mounted solenoid (or a pedal linkage) to move the gear so that it engages and disengages with the teeth on the flywheel. The Bendix does that. Why "Bendix"? I assume Bendix held the patent. The Bendix is an older design and GM dropped it entirely sometime before 1935, probably to avoid royalties. Ford continued using it into the early 60s. There is no way you have one on a 63 Oldsmobile.

 

If it is going "Zing!" and not engaging, and then you keep trying and once in a while it catches and works correctly, just replace the starter drive. It's that piece @EmTee has been talking about and posted a picture of. That is where the problem lies.

 

Was "Zing" the original problem?

 

The symptom of a bad solenoid is usually just a loud "Click" or "Clunk" when the gear engages, but then the starter motor does not spin up. The cause is copper bolts under/through the black bakelite cap that have lost enough copper from their heads that they no longer reach the copper disc they must make contact with. They can be replaced separately in these old GM solenoids. There is almost never anything else wrong with the solenoid.

 

Edited December 19, 2023 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Dandy Dave]

What EmTee and Blue said. Some aftermarket parts are trash right out of the box. A rebuilder would not know if it is defective or not as they don't put a load on the unit. Only bench tested. Dandy Dave!

[EmTee]

If it's really bad, sometimes you can feel the overrunning clutch skip when twisting the pinion by hand.

[timecapsule]

3 hours ago, Dandy Dave said:

What EmTee and Blue said. Some aftermarket parts are trash right out of the box. A rebuilder would not know if it is defective or not as they don't put a load on the unit. Only bench tested. Dandy Dave!

This is what I was wondering, about a load on the starter drive in order to test it.  I just phoned my friend, who was about to go pick up his starter from the auto electric guys.  So he's going to phone them now and get them to replace the starter drive while it is there.  I'll also go over all the battery connections as well when he gets back.  

[EmTee]

Ask them to also check the armature bushings -- at least the one at the end with the starter drive...

[dodge28]

Starter armature bushings and drive gear bushings must be in good conditions, Low voltage will fail to hold the holding winding in place when cranking so the solenoid fork will not  keep up  the few seconds it takes for the armature to spin . Forks also do wear. Rebuilders often overlook that just to keep the cost down, A cheap and effective trick is to loose the terminals on the solenoid and turn 180 degrees and retighten.  

[EmTee]

It's not clear how complete a 'rebuild' is being done by the shop.  My best friend's father ran an auto electric shop and he'd replace all of the wear items when going through a starter.  That included the fork, if worn and turning the commutator, cutting the mica spacers and growler testing of the armature.  Sounds like this one just had the solenoid replaced followed by a bench-test.  If the drive is bad, I would expect to see other wear items that require attention...

[timecapsule]

Just to update everyone.  The auto electric place actually did a load test on the starter drive.  So they are saying everything is in great shape. ( starter, solenoid, starter drive)  My friend picked it up ( no charge)  I reinstalled it on the car, and the first try it did the same thing.  Second try it fired up right away.  To me it sounds like the gear on the end of the starter is just spinning indicating that the starter drive is not pushing the gear out to engage with the flywheel.  I pulled both wires off the battery and cleaned them and reattached them securely.

The battery is reading 12.87 when the kill switch is off.  When he turns the ignition on but doesn't try to start the car the voltage slowly drops to maybe 12.37. after 30 seconds or so.   The battery is only a couple weeks old.

Btw, I also tested the kill switch for continuity and it seems to be in good condition.  But just to be sure I disconnected the ground wire at the battery post and ran a heavy duty jumper wire from the negative post to one of the engine bolts.  Same results, it spins out on the first try. 

I hooked my multi-meter to the starter solenoid  terminal coming from the battery.  Once we got the starter to engage ( second try) it dropped to around 10.65 V. or so as the car was starting up.  Then right back up to around 12.7 or so once it started.  The gauge drops down to 10. 6 or so so fast for only a split second, as the car is starting, then right back up again, that I can't really read it accurately, but it is always in the 10 and a half volts area as it starts.    

[63 Starfire]

Did you check the flywheel?

[timecapsule]

11 minutes ago, 63 Starfire said:

Did you check the flywheel?

not completely, but I did check the pan with a magnet and it was clean.

My friends car is a '63 starfire convertible, same colour as yours.

[63 Starfire]

While the starter is out, you need to turn the motor over by hand and check the teeth on the flywheel.  May have a spot where the teeth are worn  and if it happens to stop there it won't start, just spin.  After trying it a few times it may catch.  The volt readings on the battery are good.  My 63 Starfire is my favorite car.  The color is not that common and I love it.  Would like to see some pics of your friends car if possible.

[maok]

IMO, if the ring gears on the flywheel are bad in a section and it tries engage with the bad gear, it would make a very loud 'crunching' sound, believe me, you will know when you hear and feel it. I know by experience, my '37 Dodge does it, the bad gears are only at one (1/3 section) location on the fly wheel.

 

I reckon, like others have mentioned, its the pinion gear on the starter not engaging.

[timecapsule]

13 minutes ago, 63 Starfire said:

While the starter is out, you need to turn the motor over by hand and check the teeth on the flywheel.  May have a spot where the teeth are worn  and if it happens to stop there it won't start, just spin.  After trying it a few times it may catch.  The volt readings on the battery are good.  My 63 Starfire is my favorite car.  The color is not that common and I love it.  Would like to see some pics of your friends car if possible.

I thought I had some pictures of it but I can't find them on my computer.  I'll get my friend to send me some pics and I'll send them along to you.

[Bloo]

14 hours ago, timecapsule said:

To me it sounds like the gear on the end of the starter is just spinning indicating that the starter drive is not pushing the gear out to engage with the flywheel. 

The contacts in the solenoid that turn the starter motor on do not get touched until the gear is already pushed out.

 

I guess in theory, if the fork were broken or really severely worn enough to lose an end I guess it might be possible. One thing to understand though, Grinding gears from flattened thin teeth on the ring gear, or a mis-shimmed starter (does this one use shims?) or a broken or incorrectly installed fork, or whatever, will *sound* like grinding gears. It is a catastrophic really loud really shrill parts-being-destroyed sound that makes you instinctively cringe, makes you not want to do it again, and may even give you a little bit of a headache.

 

On the other hand, if it harmlessly goes "ffzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzz" and you can't wait for it to spin down so you can try again, it's the starter drive. Period. That's what it is. Put one in.

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by Bloo (see edit history)

[maok]

6 minutes ago, Bloo said:

The contacts in the solenoid that turn the starter motor on do not get touched until the gear is already pushed out.

 

I guess in theory, if the fork were broken or really severely worn enough to lose an end guess it might be possible. One thing to understand though, Grinding gears from flattened thin teeth on the ring gear, or a mis-shimmed starter (does this one use shims?) or a broken or incorrectly installed fork, or whatever, will *sound* like grinding gears. It is a catastrophic really loud really shrill parts-being-destroyed sound that makes you instinctively cringe, makes you not want to do it again, and may even give you a little bit of a headache.

 

On the other hand, if it harmlessly goes "ffzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzz" and you can't wait for it to spin down so you can try again, it's the starter drive. Period. That's what it is. Put one in.

 

I'm guessing you have experienced the grind....lol Its exactly as you describe.

[EmTee]

Inspect the entire ring gear and use a file to dress any misshapen teeth.  With the starter pinion engaged in the ring gear, you should be able to slip the wire end of a paper clip between the tip of the pinion gear tooth and the root of the "V" between the two ring gear teeth.  Some GM starters (ones having vertical mounting bolts) use shims at the mounting interface to establish the proper clearance.

[timecapsule]

5 hours ago, EmTee said:

Inspect the entire ring gear and use a file to dress any misshapen teeth.  With the starter pinion engaged in the ring gear, you should be able to slip the wire end of a paper clip between the tip of the pinion gear tooth and the root of the "V" between the two ring gear teeth.  Some GM starters (ones having vertical mounting bolts) use shims at the mounting interface to establish the proper clearance.

The mounting bolts are horizontal.  IMO I'm doubting that there is an issue with the ring gear or any clearance issues related to the meshing of the gears.  I'm saying that because it "usually" misfires on the first try only.  After that it engages just find and the car fires up.   Yesterday I wanted to record the sound on my camera, so my friend could email it to the auto electric guys. They asked him to do that so they could hear the sound.  Just waiting for a feedback from them.  Anyways, of course when I tried to record that misfire, it started first time every time.  After numerous tries It finally misfired and spun out.  

[timecapsule]

13 hours ago, 63 Starfire said:

While the starter is out, you need to turn the motor over by hand and check the teeth on the flywheel.  May have a spot where the teeth are worn  and if it happens to stop there it won't start, just spin.  After trying it a few times it may catch.  The volt readings on the battery are good.  My 63 Starfire is my favorite car.  The color is not that common and I love it.  Would like to see some pics of your friends car if possible.

 

[NailheadBob]

Great looking car, 

 

Good luck fixing starter issue

 

Bob

[63 Starfire]

That is a beautiful car but not the same color.  Mine is antique rose.  Hope you get this starting issue figured out.

[timecapsule]

41 minutes ago, 63 Starfire said:

That is a beautiful car but not the same color.  Mine is antique rose.  Hope you get this starting issue figured out.

Awww, yes,   Now that I can see the colour of you're car better, I realize it is different.  My friend's car is called Saddle Mist.    Yours is a cool colour too.

[JACK M]

When an engine is shut down it tends to stop at the same place every time.

Take a look at the flywheel thru where the starter goes, and you may see some tooth wear.

Could it be that the first grind moves the ring gear just enough to catch the next try.

Just a theory, but if this is the issue it won't get better on its own.

 

[Frank DuVal]

How true. On Corvairs the ring gear is on the torque converter, not the flex plate. When the ring gear gets worn in that spot you just open the access hole, take out the three torque converter to flex plate bolts, rotate torque converter until the bolt holes line up 120 degrees later, bolt it back up and works for many miles. When it fails again, you have one more rotation, then it is torque converter time. Lucky many used ones are out there for Corvairs. 
 

🎄🎄

[timecapsule]

5 hours ago, JACK M said:

When an engine is shut down it tends to stop at the same place every time.

Take a look at the flywheel thru where the starter goes, and you may see some tooth wear.

Could it be that the first grind moves the ring gear just enough to catch the next try.

Just a theory, but if this is the issue it won't get better on its own.

 

The problem I'm having with the flex plate ( ring gear, flywheel) theory is that the sound is the same spinning sound you'd get if you were doing a bench test.  So with that in mind, and given the diameter size of the gear on the starter drive.  There would have to be at least 3 or 4 teeth completely missing on the flex plate, that same sound. 

As I mentioned earlier, When I tried to record the sound it took several times (4 or 5) of starting the car successfully before it finally spun out.  Also prior to me coming on the scene, he said it would spin out 4 times in a row on average before it would grab and fire up the car.  Since I came on the scene and pulled the starter off and on a few times, it usually only spins out once on the first try.  Sometimes it's good for 4 or more tries before it spins out.  So it seems to be improving.  I've never heard it spin out more than once, in the 20 or so times we've tried since I came on the scene.

Plus the last time it spun out, I pulled the starter out right after,  and the teeth on the ring gear looked fine.  

[Frank DuVal]

I agree your case is not the teeth on the ring gear. There is always some clashing/gnashing noise when the teeth are the issue.

 

🦃🕎🍲☃️🍠🐖🎄🎄❄️

[EmTee]

12 hours ago, timecapsule said:

The problem I'm having with the flex plate ( ring gear, flywheel) theory is that the sound is the same spinning sound you'd get if you were doing a bench test.

If the starter drive is working properly, then it sounds like there must be something binding in the linkage that engages the pinion gear.  The solenoid is weak, plunger is sticking in the bore, the pinned joint of the fork is worn oblong, or some combination of those...

[dodge28]

There seems to 2 problems . A charged battery is about 13.3 or about. You may want to do a load test, The starter drive is sealed and has gears inside which do malfunction. If I remember correctly in the late 80s new starter drives were a common problem (made offshore?). Some repairs guys were opening  and repairing them  It is common practice to rotate the flywheel and check for wear when starter is removed. Almost every engine stops at a particular spot when ignition is turned off. The reason why the wear on the flywheel teeth is always on a particular spot. Just for experiment open an old drive .

[timecapsule]

Just taking a break over Christmas time from working on this issue.  But I just got a message from my friend that over the last couple days, it has started first time every time, and consecutive times after that.  Go figure right.

 

Since it's not acting up right now, that could explain why when the auto electric place had it, they said it worked fine.

As mentioned earlier by EmTee,  it might not hurt to pull it apart and check the starter drive for anything that might be slightly binding or sticking, when I get back to my friends place for round 2.   

[Bloo]

Just put one in it. Seriously. They aren't expensive. When they fail, it is always intermittent. You can play with it if you like. New ones and theoretically good ones lock solid one way, and drag in the opposite direction. It's funny. They almost never stop working in Chrysler gear reduction starters. I've seen them worn so loose you could just spin them in the reverse direction and the crimped outer shell was loose, and still working fine. In Ford sliding pole starters on the other hand, the drive always seems to be the first thing to go, and it wont look or feel like there is anything wrong. If I have one of those apart for any reason it gets a new drive, even if it was working fine. No exceptions. In GM starters, the drives are pretty reliable but they do occasionally fail. You could probably make a good case that in a complete overhaul it should get a new one, but if there are no signs of trouble, I wouldn't call it strictly necessary.

 

In your case though, all signs point to the starter drive. Replace it. You don't even need to tear the starter clear down. Get the solenoid and spring off, take the fork pivot bolt out, take the 2 bolts that hold it all together out. Turn it up on its tail, and take the nose off, while holding everything else down. You might need to hold down on the center of the shaft with a screwdriver or something. The goal is to not slide the armature out of the brushes, which are at the back. Keep track of any washers in front of the drive so you can put them back the same. Slide the new drive, fork, and nose back on and start the bolts. The only annoying part of this teasing the fork around so that it is properly engaged to both the starter drive and the solenoid plunger and you can get the pivot bolt back through the hole in the fork. That might take a few minutes.

 

Merry Christmas!