1948 Olds 6 cyl NOS Distributer issues

[57j2olds]

Hi guys,

I hope everyone had a good weekend. 

I picked up an NOS distributer online. After installation my car it wont start.

Any ideas? Rotor is in same place as old one. 

Could points be bad from sitting shelf for 75year?

Help.

Thanks  

[Rusty_OToole]

Points could be corroded, this often happens if they sit around too long. Clean them with a points file or 600 wet or dry sandpaper.

Check to see if the spark plugs are firing if not work your way back to the distributor and find out why. If they are firing check your timing.

[m-mman]

Uhhhhhh…..just a reminder that back then even new distributors were not always ready to drop in and run. 
Have checked the gap on the points? 
 

Also 70+ year old condenser could very well have failed. 

Edited July 24, 2023 by m-mman (see edit history)

[57j2olds]

One other thing.....

 

Right out of the box the shaft did not spin as freely at current one. 

 

I put some oil down it and its a little better...

 

Can I risk damaging my oil pump if it doesn't "spin" freely?

 

 

[Rusty_OToole]

It depends. A new distributor that has been sitting around may be a little stiffer than an old worn one. If it is really stiff it may have rust and corrosion problems. If you oiled it good and it is not too stiff it should be ok, you will have to be the judge. It would have to be badly stuck to do any damage.

[57j2olds]

58 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said:

It depends. A new distributor that has been sitting around may be a little stiffer than an old worn one. If it is really stiff it may have rust and corrosion problems. If you oiled it good and it is not too stiff it should be ok, you will have to be the judge. It would have to be badly stuck to do any damage.

Thanks Rusty.

 

I'll clean up the points tonight and put a new condenser on and see what happens. 

 

Here I'm all excited to have an NOS distributor and then the car wont start....kinda of disappointing. 

 

 

[57j2olds]

In frustration, I pulled the NOS distributer out and put the old one in. Fired right up.

 

I guess the moral is NOS is not always better than what you have. 

[DFeeney]

If you take the time to learn the basic distributor electrical circuit  you can trouble shoot the system with a $10. test light.   The first test would be to see if you have spark.  Have a learned friend help you. 

[tom_in_nh]

Where are you located?

If you are within driving distance of southern NH,  bring over your NOS distributor. 

I am curious as to why it is inoperable. 

I can check it over on my distributor machine. No charge. 

Tom

 

 

[57j2olds]

16 hours ago, tom_in_nh said:

Where are you located?

If you are within driving distance of southern NH,  bring over your NOS distributor. 

I am curious as to why it is inoperable. 

I can check it over on my distributor machine. No charge. 

Tom

 

 

Hi Tom,

 

Thanks so much. I'm just north of Detroit. Kinda far.

 

I have my old one in and its running. Can I ship you my NOS one?

 

Thanks

Lee

[tom_in_nh]

Hi Lee,

Private message sent.

Thanks, 

Tom

 

 

[57j2olds]

So this morning I’m trying to set the dwell between 31 and 37°. It’s currently running at 25°. However, when I close the points, the car won’t start. I open the points back up a little bit and it starts.
 

Any ideas what could be going wrong?

[TerryB]

28 minutes ago, 57j2olds said:

So this morning I’m trying to set the dwell between 31 and 37°. It’s currently running at 25°. However, when I close the points, the car won’t start. I open the points back up a little bit and it starts.
 

Any ideas what could be going wrong?

The points have to open and close to make a spark happen at the spark plugs. When the points are closed the coil is being energized to make a spark. When the points open the electro-magnetic energy in the coil creates a high voltage that get transferred to the distributor and eventually to the spark plug.  If the points are always open then no spark can be generated and if the points are always closed no spark can be generated.  Your first step should be getting the point gap set to the gap value recommended for your car.

[TerryB]

This drawing is for a Chrysler product but the theory is the same.  Note the point gap and how it’s measured when the points are on the center of the distributor cam lobe.

 

[57j2olds]

Thanks Terry
 

I was always told the dwell setting took priority over gap. 

[m-mman]

2 hours ago, 57j2olds said:

I was always told the dwell setting took priority over gap.

It does, but it is associated with the point gap. I assume that you are beginning with measuring the gap with a feeler gauge. The gauge needs to “just drag” to be the right measurement.  

 

BUT how are your feeler gauge skills? How much drag is correct? Are you holding the feeler blade 100% straight? It is a skill and I have good and bad days. 
 

So you set the gap with a feeler gauge and THEN make minute adjustments to make the dwell correct.  
 

I recently fought this with my Hudson 8. (Low mounted difficult to see distributor) 

I set the gap PERFECTLY but the dwell was off(?). 
Remembering that if the dwell is too big the gap is too small and if the dwell is too small the gap is too big, I switched to the next size feeler blade and readjusted the gap until the dwell meter said the points were right. 
 

As I remembered I had to use a .005” different from specification blade (maybe more?) until the dwell was correct.
 
Doesn’t make sense, (the correct gap should give the correct dwell) but the proof is in the performance of the engine.

[Rusty_OToole]

If the points are new and the distributor is in good shape points gap and dwell should be the same. In other words, if you set the points with a feeler gauge then check with a dwell meter the reading will be correct.

 

If the points are worn or burned the feeler gauge will not give an accurate setting, the gap will be wider than the gauge and dwell will be off. If the distributor is worn and the shaft wobbly you will not get an accurate reading, the dwell will wander as the shaft moves around.

 

If the new distributor does not work something must be wrong, such as a defective condenser or points shorting out.

[WPVT]

If points are set correctly and it still won't run, try using the old cap on the new distributor. I've had a cap go bad with no visible defect.   

[57j2olds]

Thanks for the input. 

 

I am currently running the old distributor as the new NOS one is being looked at.

 

Yes, I'm thinking that the points are worn or the shaft is worn. 

 

The motor sounds real good. 

 

I gapped at .22 however still at 24 deg dwell. 

 

Next step is to put in new points this week.

 

 

[TerryB]

Just for consideration, do you know for sure that your dwell meter is reading correctly?  

[57j2olds]

3 hours ago, TerryB said:

Just for consideration, do you know for sure that your dwell meter is reading correctly?  

No I dont. 

 

I'm going to try to find a used 6 volt meter online.

 

I also am having issues zeroing in my meter. Its a good snap-on one however the middle zero knob is not working. 

 

 

Edited July 31, 2023 by 57j2olds (see edit history)

[rodneybeauchamp]

On 8/1/2023 at 2:24 AM, 57j2olds said:

No I dont. 

 

I'm going to try to find a used 6 volt meter online.

 

I also am having issues zeroing in my meter. Its a good snap-on one however the middle zero knob is not working. 

 

 

Be aware most dwell meters measure for four, six and eight cylinders. Make sure you are reading the value from the correct scale. A 12V dwell meter can be used on a 6V system using a 12V donor battery for power. Ask me how I know this 😀

 

One of the first tools I purchased when I bought my first ‘64 Buick Skylark was a nice simple Optilux dwell meter marketed by Bosch. The xenon tube in the timing light failed after twenty years and no longer available as a spare. 
 

I bought a flash new digital device to replace it but much preferred the needle scale. 😞😞😞

 

Just my two bobs worth

Rodney 😀😀😀😀😀😀

Edited August 2, 2023 by rodneybeauchamp
Additional information (see edit history)

[Bloo]

Dwell is simply the number of degrees the points stay closed for.

 

A dwell meter should go to zero degrees with the points open because there is no dwell. It should go to the maximum number of distributor degrees between cylinders when the points are closed, because points that stay closed have all of the possible dwell. That is 60 degrees on a 6 cylinder engine.

 

It's a quick sanity check to see if your dwell meter is doing what it should.

 

[Glen Andrews]

On 8/2/2023 at 7:19 AM, rodneybeauchamp said:

Be aware most dwell meters measure for four, six and eight cylinders. Make sure you are reading the value from the correct scale. A 12V dwell meter can be used on a 6V system using a 12V donor battery for power. Ask me how I know this 😀

 

One of the first tools I purchased when I bought my first ‘64 Buick Skylark was a nice simple Optilux dwell meter marketed by Bosch. The xenon tube in the timing light failed after twenty years and no longer available as a spare. 
 

I bought a flash new digital device to replace it but much preferred the needle scale. 😞😞😞

 

Just my two bobs worth

Rodney 😀😀😀😀😀😀

Rodney: I have a 1938 Chevrolet (1/2 ton pickup) that is 6V and original 216" engine, I am trying to find a dwell meter that will function with a 6V system and you mention that a 12V dwell meter can be converted to work on a 6V system. I no longer have a 12V dwell meter but they are available all over Ebay, so can you explain how to do that conversion. Last week I bought a Snap On dwell/tach meter off Ebay which had a switch setting for 6V 12V and 24V, and of course the description was something like an untested unit yada yada and so on. So yes it was a piece of junk but an interesting piece. I would like to know with my engine the RPM and Dwell settings;  I use feeler gauges and a vacuum gauge to set the timing and points, also use a timing light. Thanks, Glen Andrews

[61polara]

1 hour ago, Glen Andrews said:

A 12V dwell meter can be used on a 6V system using a 12V donor battery for power. Ask me how I know this 😀

Simply hook the power leads to a 12V battery.  That's all you need to do.  Of course the distributor lead still goes to your distributor or coil on the car you are testing.

[rocketraider]

A few years back (pre-covid) I bought a Sears engine analyzer and timing light at a local auction house. Paid like $10 for the pair, thinking if the stuff works, great, if not, no big deal.

 

Unboxed them and they work perfectly, but somewhere in their lives they'd both had their 12v power cables extended by ten feet. Neat, workmanlike job.

 

All I can figure is that their owner was using them on a 6v car, and extended the power cables to reach a 12v battery in another vehicle.

 

DK why I bought them. I have another perfectly good Sears analyzer and dial-back timing light. Y'all have heard me say that it is hard for car guys and tool junkies to resist a good deal, especially when no one else even bid on it!

 

 

[Bloo]

It seems to me that you would at least have to ground the 12v battery to the car, or the meter would not be able to tell whether the points were open or closed. It is also significant that we are talking about a Chevrolet per @Glen Andrews ' question, and a Chevrolet is a negative ground car. That dramatically increases the chance of success. Positive ground would dramatically increase the chances of destroying something.

 

I had one of those Sears analyzers when I was a teenager. Still have it actually, but haven't used it in decades. The extended wires don't surprise me at all. Mine spent a lot of time sitting on air cleaners, core supports, radiators, etc. You wouldn't do that with a restored car. Anyhow, having looked inside it, I am fairly sure positive ground would destroy it, and on the off chance the dwell function did work on positive ground, it would read backwards.

 

The best chance of success using a 12v dwell meter on 6 volt cars would be a 2-wire analog dwell meter with a zero or "set" adjust knob. There is a high probability it would work on both positive and negative ground 6v systems.

 

Edited August 9, 2023 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Glen Andrews]

Okay, thanks for the responses. So last night I googled 6V dwell meter and found an old post (7 years ago) on the Chevy Stovebolt forum where someone explained it so I took pictures of the post and hand wrote it out, and it makes sense. In the Stovebolt post it's explained as someone else above in this thread explained it. A separate 12V source that the dwell meter power leads get hooked to, and then run a ground wire from the negative power lead of the dwell meter and connect it to the engine block, which yes my truck is negative ground, and then hook the dwell/tach lead to the negative side of the coil or distributor points lead on the side of the distributor. Last week I bought off Ebay an old Snap On meter that had a 6V 12V and 24V selector switch, and it was listed as "untested" , and it doesn't function so now I have another interesting piece to display in my garage. This morning I just bought a 12V dwell meter off Ebay that is listed as working. Probably twenty years ago I got rid of a 12V dwell meter and timing light; I used feeler gauges and a vacuum gauge to set the points and timing on my '38 Chevy. Now I want to know the RPM's and the dwell reading; and about ten years ago I bought another timing light, so I'm pretty much back to where I was in the early 70's with basic tune up equipment.

[TerryB]

Glenn, I have some Snap-on instruction manuals.  This one might be for your meter or one very similar.  Here are the instructions on using the meter for tach and dwell.

 

[Glen Andrews]

Terry, that looks like the unit I got, but as I said it is a DEAD unit and I figured that when I bought it. I have a good friend who was a Snap On Dealer for 20 plus years so I showed it to him and asked if he can find one, if not I have that 12V one coming which I'll be able to use with an extra battery. I'm supposed to receive the instruction booklet in the mail, which will look like what you have posted, thanks. There is a SUN dwell/tach unit on Ebay that has a 6V and 12V setting, but it has no cables with it and is priced at $200; so I figure I'll get this 12V one for about $40 with shipping, I have plenty of extra test leads (as most of us do in this hobby) so I will be able to give it a try probably next week.

Thanks again,

Glen

[TerryB]

My late father in law was a Snap-on dealer from the mid-1950s to the late 1980s.  I have these manuals from a clean out we did when he died.  Could be something simple like dirty contacts inside the meter or it could be component failure.  Good luck!

[rocketraider]

Might that Snap-on manual have a schematic in it? If it does about any tech school electronics student should be able to troubleshoot and repair it.

 

And could be something as simple as dirty contacts in one of the switches. Sometimes rapidly cycling a rotary switch thru all positions will clean the switch contacts enough to get the unit to function.

 

Item 4 under "Special Features" on p2 of the manual shows it's self-powered and requires three 1.5vdc batteries to operate. Not trying to be a smartass, but did you check the batteries or install new ones? Maybe clean corrosion off battery connections?

[Glen Andrews]

3 hours ago, rocketraider said:

Might that Snap-on manual have a schematic in it? If it does about any tech school electronics student should be able to troubleshoot and repair it.

 

And could be something as simple as dirty contacts in one of the switches. Sometimes rapidly cycling a rotary switch thru all positions will clean the switch contacts enough to get the unit to function.

 

Item 4 under "Special Features" on p2 of the manual shows it's self-powered and requires three 1.5vdc batteries to operate. Not trying to be a smartass, but did you check the batteries or install new ones? Maybe clean corrosion off battery connections?

I took the thing apart and the rotary switches are stuck, WD40 didn't do anything, and one of the rotary switches (the Volt selector) is broken inside, there is much corrosion from a left over size D battery, and just deterioration of the internal electrical parts, as I said it is DEAD. So I cleaned it up some and now I have another piece of interesting junk in my garage, I'm only out about $45 with shipping; how many times in this hobby have I wished that was the largest sum of money I've burned up chasing things!! And I have a 12V one coming, $39 with shipping, and I have the explanation on how to wire it to work on my 6V negative ground system; so hopefully that 12V one works and I can get on to checking my actual engine RPM's, and dwell reading.

[Bloo]

Sorry it turned out that way. A Snap-On unit capable of 6V is probably worth some effort to fix, but it sounds like this one is pretty bad. I understand why you might not want to continue down that path. I bought some 6V equipment a few years ago, a dwellmeter, a tachometer, and a generator test set (3 separate boxes). So far I have repaired the dwellmeter and calibrated the generator test set, but the tachometer is still resisting my efforts to fix it.

 

For what its worth, a couple years ago @Matt Harwood alerted me to the existence of the Innova 3568/3568a Digital DIalback timing light. It not only works on 6v cars, it works on 6 volts supplied by the car, no extra 12V battery needed. My Snap-On dialback timing light from the 80s is a great product but it does neither of those things. This gets you a timing light and a tachometer. It also gets you "dialback", for checking the advance curve of your distributor. There is no dwell though, you still need a separate meter for that.

 

 

 

[rodneybeauchamp]

On 8/9/2023 at 8:52 AM, Glen Andrews said:

Rodney: I have a 1938 Chevrolet (1/2 ton pickup) that is 6V and original 216" engine, I am trying to find a dwell meter that will function with a 6V system and you mention that a 12V dwell meter can be converted to work on a 6V system. I no longer have a 12V dwell meter but they are available all over Ebay, so can you explain how to do that conversion. Last week I bought a Snap On dwell/tach meter off Ebay which had a switch setting for 6V 12V and 24V, and of course the description was something like an untested unit yada yada and so on. So yes it was a piece of junk but an interesting piece. I would like to know with my engine the RPM and Dwell settings;  I use feeler gauges and a vacuum gauge to set the timing and points, also use a timing light. Thanks, Glen Andrews

Hi Glen, I think from your posts that you have it sorted. As explained with a 12V dwell meter, hook it to a 12V power source and connect the distributor connection to your six volt vehicle. Dwell meter when working properly will be much more reliable than feeler gauges from what I understand.

 

BTW I purchased a new unit similar to what Bloo showed after my old faithful died.

 

Cheers

Rodney 😀😀😀😀😀

[Glen Andrews]

13 hours ago, rodneybeauchamp said:

Hi Glen, I think from your posts that you have it sorted. As explained with a 12V dwell meter, hook it to a 12V power source and connect the distributor connection to your six volt vehicle. Dwell meter when working properly will be much more reliable than feeler gauges from what I understand.

 

BTW I purchased a new unit similar to what Bloo showed after my old faithful died.

 

Cheers

Rodney 😀😀😀😀😀

Rodney, thanks for the reply, I found an old post on a Chevy Stovebolt forum that explained it, and after reading and absorbing it I have pretty well sorted it in my mind. I am waiting for a 12V dwell/meter to arrive and probably next week I'll give it a go to see how well it works. That looks like a pretty neat piece that Bloo posted.

Take care,

Glen

[Glen Andrews]

On 8/10/2023 at 12:31 PM, Glen Andrews said:

Rodney, thanks for the reply, I found an old post on a Chevy Stovebolt forum that explained it, and after reading and absorbing it I have pretty well sorted it in my mind. I am waiting for a 12V dwell/meter to arrive and probably next week I'll give it a go to see how well it works. That looks like a pretty neat piece that Bloo posted.

Take care,

Glen

Not sure how to do this, but Thanks to all who read and replied to my post: 57j2olds / 61 Polara / Bloo / RocketRaider / TerryB / Rodney / and others. I received the 12V dwell meter and finally today I worked in the garage on my 6 cylinder '38 Chevy pickup 6V (neg ground). I have another car in the garage and used that 12V battery to power the dwell meter, ran a ground from the engine block back to the dwell meter ground, connected the distributor lead and I was able to finally see what RPM's my engine was running and was able to set the dwell. I set the idle RPM's at 600 and set the dwell at 35*. Before I hooked up the dwell meter I set the points at .018" which is the recommended setting, started it up and the dwell was right at 30* and had a little roughness when I revved the engine, so I closed the points up to .016" and dwell read 34* and was better, but the suggested middle of the road reading in the Snap On instructions (that TerryB posted) was 36* so I used a .015" feeler gauge restarted the engine and the dwell read 35* so I figured that was good, reset the timing with a vacuum gauge, got right at 21"hg and set the distributor there. I put the timing light on the flywheel to see where the marks shook out and I'm figuring it's at 8*BTDC. Now to see how it starts up when cold, should be good. There's another story behind my using a vacuum gauge to set the timing, If I use the suggested Chevrolet settings the engine doesn't want to start when cold; but that should probably be another thread; this thread has gone from a Buick 8 cylinder issue to me learning how to use a 12V dwell meter on a 6V system, and years ago I got rid of all those basic tune up pieces, and now I have them and am back to the early 70's technology. I really enjoy these forums and the comments made, and the things I learn from the contributors.

Glen

[rocketraider]

Now that the 38 Chevy is running decently, wonder if 57j2olds ever got the 48 Olds sorted out?

 

I have to say a GM V8 window distributor was a great advance in setting up ignition systems. I was also happy when Chrysler introduced their electronic ignition and distributor. Nothing short of aggravating to have to reach over a Mopar V8 at operating temperature trying to set points with feeler gauges. At least most Fords the distributor was at the front!

[Glen Andrews]

11 hours ago, rocketraider said:

Now that the 38 Chevy is running decently, wonder if 57j2olds ever got the 48 Olds sorted out?

 

I have to say a GM V8 window distributor was a great advance in setting up ignition systems. I was also happy when Chrysler introduced their electronic ignition and distributor. Nothing short of aggravating to have to reach over a Mopar V8 at operating temperature trying to set points with feeler gauges. At least most Fords the distributor was at the front!

Yes I remember doing the dwell settings back in the day with the cap and rotor off dwell meter hooked up and cranking the starter and adjusting the dwell on the points.

And for years on my '38 I have been setting the points at the .015" -.016" range, using the vacuum gauge to set timing and put the light on afterwards just to see, and the thing ran right. But after reading the thread that mentioned hooking up a 12V dwell meter to a 6V system: "I just had to know!" So as usual I put a saddle on the project and rode it into the ground!

[57j2olds]

On 8/9/2023 at 1:05 PM, TerryB said:

Glenn, I have some Snap-on instruction manuals.  This one might be for your meter or one very similar.  Here are the instructions on using the meter for tach and dwell.

 

 

Good morning.

 

I just bought that dwell meter listed above. MT-415B

 

It's good for a 6 Volt system.

 

I wish I had that manual. It calls for 1.5 V batteries (3), but I can't tell which type.

 

Does that manual say what "Kind" of batteries? The brass battery prongs are kind of far apart. 

Edited August 17, 2023 by 57j2olds (see edit history)