36' Buick series 40 - 233 engine oil/coolant issue

[EmTee]

Was one of them notably cleaner before you touched them?  Look closely at the gasket to check for any possible leak path.  Check the head and deck with a straightedge.  If it was leaking from the head gasket it must have been a small leak.

[DonMicheletti]

The gasket coolant hole between cylinders 4 and 5, from the left in the above photo. looks suspicious where the dark portion is. Is the fire ring OK?

 

Other similar areas too.

 

[Manu]

 Update.

 

I have removed the oil pan. There was a mixture of oil and water in the oil pan. Not too much and the engine looks ok for me. What do you think? I will bring the head to a shop o n monday to check it. I will also show them the old gasket. Maybe they can see something. I took some pictures with flash and some without.

 

 

[Grimy]

My experience with modern reproduction "sandwich" gaskets, which have a plastic material in the center to replace banned asbestos, is that they require *multiple* (as many as 5 or 6) re-torquings rather than usually just one re-torque on asbestos-center gaskets.  If at all possible, acquire a NOS (New Old Stock) head gasket that still has an asbestos center. 

[nat]

 

The far left cylinder may not have been leaking combustion past the gasket.  All the others were.  The worst is in the middle.  That's the leakiest head gasket I've ever seen.  The head may be warped but I suspect that it wasn't tightened/retightened properly and or not clean enough when it was assembled.

Edited July 28, 2023 by nat
. (see edit history)

[Manu]

And a new problem. I purchased on ebay a rear crankshaft main seal for my engine. Now, the oilpan removed I wanted to replace the old seal but there wasn't a seal around the crankshaft😳Only 2 side seals. I can't find any way to install the round parts. What is going on? Am I stupid? 🤷🏽 I also need the torque reference for the 2 rear crankshaft bolts. I can't find them in the manual. 

Edited July 29, 2023 by Manu (see edit history)

[critterpainter]

To my knowledge and recollection these engines have no rear main seal.

[Manu]

2 hours ago, critterpainter said:

To my knowledge and recollection these engines have no rear main seal.

OK thanks. I purchased it here: https://oldbuickparts.com/product/rear-main-seal-set-2/

 

Can anyone please  give me the torque spec for the 2 cranckshaft bolts. I have the 1936 Buick 8 shop manual and can't find he specs. Is there an other manual to buy? Thanks in advance.

[nat]

     The earliest spec for main bearing torque is 90-100 Ft. Lbs. for 1940 year.

     Does anyone have specs for 1936?

[David Zitzmann]

Did they have torque specs in 36?  My 37 LaSalle did not, but the 40 does. I can see if I can find the 36 motors manual and look it up.

Edited July 31, 2023 by David Zitzmann (see edit history)

[Fireball8man]

These are the torque specs that I have regarding Buick straight 8 engines and other torque wrench specs regarding Buicks.

Edited July 31, 2023 by Fireball8man
Update (see edit history)

[nat]

34 minutes ago, Fireball8man said:

These are the torque specs that I have regarding Buick straight 8 engines and other torque wrench specs regarding Buicks.

     Thanks for the replies. 

     I can't find any torque specs. in my 1938 and 1939 Buick manuals.  Are they in there somewhere and if so, where? 

     Perhaps 36' is pre torque wrench.  The spec for my 24' Dodge cylinder head is "very tight".     

     I have a 1940-1955 Motors repair manual, (that I left outside for a winter).  It listed 90-100 Ft. LBS. for main bearings up to 1942.  After that the spec. was 120-130.  Do you know from what year the 120-130 spec. comes from?

[Bloo]

1936 is too early for torque wrenches. In some cases (like my 36 Pontiac) the engine design changed not a lot until 1941 when torque specs started to appear, and later specs are usable. The trouble is in your case, I believe the 1936 40 was the last year of that particular engine design, wasn't it?

 

If you could verify that the bolts are the same size and thread as a 1941 or later model you could just use those torque specs. If not, there are tables of torque specs based on the size, thread, and grade of the bolts. Metallurgy improved drastically during the war. When guessing on prewar bolts, if you don't know for sure the bolts are really good steel, it is usually best to assume they are a soft or weak grade (grade 2 maybe) when picking a line on the torque tables.

 

5 hours ago, nat said:

 I have a 1940-1955 Motors repair manual, (that I left outside for a winter).  It listed 90-100 Ft. LBS. for main bearings up to 1942.  After that the spec. was 120-130.  Do you know from what year the 120-130 spec. comes from?

 

They stopped making cars in early 42 due to the war, and didn't make any more until 1946, so if it is worded like that, the higher spec would have began in 1946. My guess is they just had better bolts after the war. If it turns out that the bolts in a 1946 model are still the same size a 1941-42 model, then almost certainly better bolts were the reason.

 

[Manu]

8 hours ago, Fireball8man said:

These are the torque specs that I have regarding Buick straight 8 engines and other torque wrench specs regarding Buicks.

Hi.  Thanks. I also researched on the internet. Do you think that this is still the right way today? Everyone tightens the bolts from the center of the cylinder head crosswise to the front and to the rear. I don't want to get it all wrong again.

[Bloo]

If Buick wants that screwball sequence, I guess I would use it. I'm surprised to see it. Whatever you do don't bring them all up at once. Go in about 3 stages, and all the way to spec the third time around.

 

[Manu]

11 minutes ago, Bloo said:

If Buick wants that screwball sequence, I guess I would use it. I'm surprised to see it. Whatever you do don't bring them all up at once. Go in about 3 stages, and all the way to spec the third time around.

 

Thanks for your help. I will do it like this.

[Manu]

I want to say a big thank to all of you here for your help.  You are great. I will probably have to ask questions here often, as this is new territory for me. And maybe my english will be better and I don't have to use a translator anymore 🙂

[EmTee]

120 ft-lbs sounds like a lot to me for 1936.  I'd go to 100 and see how it feels before going any higher.  If the engine is still together I would use the torque wrench to see how much torque is needed to break them loose and use that as a guide.

[Manu]

Bad news. The store called me. My valves are no longer salvageable. They did a pressure test, which was very bad. The valves are too rusted to be able to rework them. Is there a source for new valves? Thanks

[Fireball8man]

I have been in the hobby for over thirty (30) years working on Buick straight 8 engines.  We own several pre-war and post-war straight 8 Buicks and have used the torque wrench specs provided.  My friend who has four (4) 1936 Buicks; including an original 1936 Buick Century that was his grandfather's bought new has also used the torque wrench specs on his 1936 Buicks.  We do not search 'the net' nor make uneducated comments when the materials provided are from actual mechanical & engineering documents regarding these Buick engines.   We have a library of books, manuals, bulletins, etc. in our collection and have utilized them over the decades.

[Manu]

4 minutes ago, Fireball8man said:

I have been in the hobby for over thirty (30) years working on Buick straight 8 engines.  We own several pre-war and post-war straight 8 Buicks and have used the torque wrench specs provided.  My friend who has four (4) 1936 Buicks; including an original 1936 Buick Century that was his grandfather's bought new has also used the torque wrench specs on his 1936 Buicks.  We do not search 'the net' nor make uneducated comments when the materials provided are from actual mechanical & engineering documents regarding these Buick engines.   We have a library of books, manuals, bulletins, etc. in our collection and have utilized them over the decades.

Quote

Thanks. I will use this specs.

 

[critterpainter]

Bobs Automobilia in California should have the valves in stock and they do ship around the world.   

 

Home One - Bob's Automobilia (bobsautomobilia.com)

[Manu]

4 hours ago, critterpainter said:

Bobs Automobilia in California should have the valves in stock and they do ship around the world.   

 

Home One - Bob's Automobilia (bobsautomobilia.com)

Thanks for your help. They don't have them. I have contacted Egge Machine company. Maybe they have them.

[edinmass]

Over the last twelve months I have had my hands deep inside a 1921 Series 45, a little bit in a 1932 Series 90, and way inside a 1934 Series 56……….it seems like many other brands, the reproduction parts supply is falling off a cliff. Parts that were easily available are not being replaced when stock runs out…….this is also true for flat head early Ford stuff. It’s not going to get easier on almost any pre war car ever again. The numbers of cars being totally restored are rapidly coming to an end for the current era. There is lots of service and maintenance work being done……..the cars aren’t going away, but the cost is getting crazy to make repairs and parts. Things change over time……..in this case not for the better. Making valves is fairly easy…….buy bigger blanks or existing valves and cut them down. It’s a lot of work chasing something you can use, the rest is fairly straight forward. Hell…..tires and gaskets are now a problem in the hobby on everything pre war. 
 

Looking at the water in the oil on this car from the first page…….one needs to ask if there is bearing damage. It’s probably likely. At this point I would pull the engine and tear it down…….it’s a nice car, and certainly worth the effort. I understand numbers and out of pocket issues. Sometimes you have to take the good with the bad. It’s probably not a good idea to try and band aid the engine……..these Buicks often get run hard for miles……….and that will certainly make an engine scatter if it’s not up to standards. What one can get away with in early cars that are driven slow and seldom doesn’t apply to the mid 30’s stuff that is driven on highways like they are from a much more modern era. 

[DonMicheletti]

As I had mentioned above, I had water in the oil on my Special due to that rear bolt / stud issue in the rocker stanchion.

What I found was far worse than  what Manu has found (photo below - the bottom end looked like that too).

His photos suggests the engine has not been run long with water in the oil.

I did tear my engine completely down and I found no damage whatsoever.

Befrore tearing everything apart, I think I'd check some bearings to see if there is actually any damage. Do your bores look OK.

Blowing a head gasket and getting water in the oil isnt rare.

Edited August 2, 2023 by DonMicheletti (see edit history)

[32buick67]

This should be encouraging....the S837 and V838 valves are quite common, almost so common that you are getting close to Model T part availability...makes me a tad jealous...

Lots of NOS TRW Thompson on ebay, Bobs has these, just call or email to confirm the # with Bobs, Egge also has them.

Don't forget to lap them and do the brake fluid test before installing the head!

 

 

[Manu]

Hi guys. Here a little update. I have the cylinder head and the engine back. The cylinder head has been completely overhauled and fitted with new valves. The cylinders were honed and new piston rings were installed. I have now assembled the engine and roughly adjusted the valves. I still have a few questions. What is the purpose of the screw in the picture that is screwed into the engine block? It has a kind of tap that you can open. The hole in the block is not provided with a normal thread. What could that be? I also wanted to ask you how the oil filter is correctly connected to the block.  I think the 233 didn't have an original oil filter, but one was installed when I bought my car. However, I believe that it was not connected correctly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Manu (see edit history)

[neil morse]

Are you asking about the brass fitting shown in the last four photos?  If so, that's just a petcock for draining coolant.  Sometimes you just see a plug used, other times you see a petcock, which is much more convenient.  They are readily available from many suppliers.

 

 

Sorry, I do not know the answer to your question about the oil filter.

[Bloo]

@neil morse has it right, that is a petcock to drain coolant from the engine block. The threads are "NPT" or "National Pipe Thread" as used in the US and most of North America.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_pipe_thread

 

It is hard to tell from the picture what size NPT, but maybe 1/8". In the Wikipedia link, scroll down to the "standard sizes" table, check the "Actual outside diameter D" column, and pick the closest one. It will not be an exact number because the threads are tapered.

 

Buick straight eights often had the oil filter plumbed in series with the oil supply to the head. I do not know for sure if this is correct for your car.

 

[neil morse]

I'm pretty sure that drain petcock is 1/4" NPT.

[MCHinson]

Assuming the 1936 is the same as 1937 and 1938 which I am fairly certain is true, the coolant drain petcock would be 1/4 inch NPT. 

[Manu]

OK thanks guys. I ordered a new one. Petcock

[Bloo]

BSP is the British standard, not American. I don't think those threads are the same.

[Manu]

1 hour ago, Bloo said:

BSP is the British standard, not American. I don't think those threads are the same.

You are right Bloo. Thanks. My clicking finger was faster than my brain 🙂 I ordered this one now. 1/4 NPT

[Manu]

Hi. Happy new year. What's the water temp sensor thread size in the engine. I have to plug it because I want run the engine in a stand. I can measuring the temp using a laser.  Thanks.

[nat]

It may be 9/16 inch diameter with 18 threads per inch. That is no longer a common bolt size but it is used on -6, (3/8 inch), SAE hydraulic fittings.

The temperature sensor creates the seal like the flare on a copper tubing,

The right size cork or plug should work fine for a test run.

 

Il peut s'agir d'un boulon de 9/16 de pouce de diamètre avec 18 filets par pouce. Cette taille de boulon n'est plus courante, mais elle est utilisée pour les raccords hydrauliques SAE -6 (3/8 de pouce).

Le capteur de température crée le joint comme l'évasement d'un tube en cuivre,

Un bouchon de liège ou un bouchon de la bonne taille devrait faire l'affaire pour un essai.

[Manu]

Hi guys. Sorry i have an other question.  Take a look at my radiator. Do you think, the cap is the correct one? The cap has no pressure spring. It's a Harrison raditor and the overfill tube ( i don't know the correct name) is in the middle on the top. Thanks.

[Manu]

[Manu]

[MCHinson]

That looks like the correct original radiator cap to me. In 1936 the coolant system is non-pressurized.