25 Dodge tourer restoration

[RichBad]

Matt on the go slow = faster than most.  Hope you’re feeling better!

[nearchoclatetown]

4 hours ago, RichBad said:

Matt on the go slow = faster than most.  Hope you’re feeling better!

He knows that Ron is on the way and he better show some progress. 

[Mattml430]

Engine is undercoated ready to piece it back together so I can send it to the engine builder. 
Im thinking I’ll spray a little bit of colour in behind where the starter generator goes before its sent away. 
I started on rebuilding the water pump this afternoon after I had to get the correct size mechanical seal. 

[Minibago]

1 hour ago, Mattml430 said:

Engine is undercoated ready to piece it back together so I can send it to the engine builder. 
Im thinking I’ll spray a little bit of colour in behind where the starter generator goes before its sent away. 
I started on rebuilding the water pump this afternoon after I had to get the correct size mechanical seal. 

Is this water pump seal a modern upgrade?

If so I would be interested in the process and seal part number please Matt.

[MikeC5]

The water pump seal I used is National Oil Seal P/N 253747.  https://www.baldwinsupply.com/itemdetail/253747 NATIONAL

Typically, the water pumps shaft is badly worn where the packing has worn grooves in it.  It will need to be replaced with the modern seals.  I'm not aware of any write up for step by step to rebuild the water pump.  The bronze impeller and bushings were in good shape on mine, so I didn't need to replace them.  Good luck!

[Mattml430]

I got the pump back in temporarily today. I think it should all work it was pretty tight. the ceramic part of the seal is 1”1/16 on the outer rubber. 
Turning the centre out to fit the ceramic seal. 
I made some brass lock bushes to hold pressure on the seal. 
The seal is just a 5/8 mechanical seal. 

[Minibago]

On 5/11/2023 at 9:51 AM, MikeC5 said:

The water pump seal I used is National Oil Seal P/N 253747.  https://www.baldwinsupply.com/itemdetail/253747 NATIONAL

Typically, the water pumps shaft is badly worn where the packing has worn grooves in it.  It will need to be replaced with the modern seals.  I'm not aware of any write up for step by step to rebuild the water pump.  The bronze impeller and bushings were in good shape on mine, so I didn't need to replace them.  Good luck!

Thanks Mike, much appreciated.

[Minibago]

1 hour ago, Mattml430 said:

I got the pump back in temporarily today. I think it should all work it was pretty tight. the ceramic part of the seal is 1”1/16 on the outer rubber. 
Turning the centre out to fit the ceramic seal. 
I made some brass lock bushes to hold pressure on the seal. 
The seal is just a 5/8 mechanical seal. 

Nice job Matt, could the original nuts be used to hold the seals in place?

[Minibago]

I have new shafts made here in Adelaide with the correct drive keyway orientations.

[nearchoclatetown]

Are those ceramic seals, Matt?

[Mattml430]

53 minutes ago, Minibago said:

Nice job Matt, could the original nuts be used to hold the seals in place?

It’s possible I guess, I think you would need to machine the inside of the nuts so the mechanical side would fit through it. Doing that would also look neater by covering the thread. I could still look at doing that. 
I’ve pressed the seals in and also put a bit of loctite on them. They are very tight in there. By pressing them in they are parallel with the gasket surface. 

[Mattml430]

8 minutes ago, nearchoclatetown said:

Are those ceramic seals, Matt?

Yes they are Doug. 5/8 water pump seals. 

[Mattml430]

56 minutes ago, Minibago said:

I have new shafts made here in Adelaide with the correct drive keyway orientations.

This pump has been repaired at some stage, it also has a stainless steel shaft. I think Cled use to sell them. I wonder how Cled is going. 

[Minibago]

Very poorly now with alzheimers a big problem, his business is now taken over by Ray (Swan Hill) and our Dodgy friend Dimi Parker in Maryborough Vic. 
The shafts that Cled sold were from Cindy and Tom Myers so straight / aligned keyways.

[RichBad]

Is there a reason why the ceramic seals are typically used on the Dodge pump mods rather than a lipped neoprene seal like modern pumps?

 

I used a lipped seal on my pump but it’s a later model and perhaps there isn’t space in the earlier pump housings?  I guess the ceramic style ones would also work on a worn shaft as don’t rely so much on the shaft for sealing?

[Minibago]

I just did a bit of seal research so please correct any misconceptions Matt.

The ceramic seal you are using is two fold, stator and rotor requiring spring pressure to seal hence the removal of the cap nut.
This seems to be the best sealing option.

 

The following is my research results for comparison.

 

 

[Minibago]

2 hours ago, RichBad said:

Is there a reason why the ceramic seals are typically used on the Dodge pump mods rather than a lipped neoprene seal like modern pumps?

 

I used a lipped seal on my pump but it’s a later model and perhaps there isn’t space in the earlier pump housings?  I guess the ceramic style ones would also work on a worn shaft as don’t rely so much on the shaft for sealing?

Rich, do you have a grease point either side of the impeller to lubricate the lip seal? Without lubrication the lip seal seems not to last long.

I have spoken to many DB owners having failures of lip seal modified water pumps and now better understand why.

[nearchoclatetown]

I just heard a rumor that Ron is on the way. We will soon be seeing progress.

[Mattml430]

I have seen the ceramic seal leak if they are misaligned. This is why I put these in the press to get them as accurate as I could. 
I have also seen the lip seals wear a groove in the shaft. Might be ok on the stainless, a bit of lubrication would definitely help prevent that. 
I fitted a mechanical seal to my 6 cylinder engines water pump. 

Edited May 13, 2023 by Mattml430 (see edit history)

[RichBad]

On 5/13/2023 at 11:00 AM, Minibago said:

Rich, do you have a grease point either side of the impeller to lubricate the lip seal? Without lubrication the lip seal seems not to last long.

I have spoken to many DB owners having failures of lip seal modified water pumps and now better understand why.

Yea, I retained the original lubrication fittings and even the rope seal - just had the lipped seal as belt and braces.  I don’t tighten the gland nut much so would probably leak in it’s own but holds some lubricant and helps the lip seal.

 

I thought modern car pumps have a lip seal - perhaps modern coolant has some additives to help with lubricant? The small shaft size on the dodge probably doesn’t help.

 

cheers,

Richard

[nearchoclatetown]

So Matt, what is the ETA on Ron?

[Mattml430]

4 minutes ago, nearchoclatetown said:

So Matt, what is the ETA on Ron?

About the end of July I think. 

[nearchoclatetown]

All I'm saying is you better have all the wrenches shined up ready to rock and roll. Enough of the lollygaging. 

[Mattml430]

3 hours ago, nearchoclatetown said:

All I'm saying is you better have all the wrenches shined up ready to rock and roll. Enough of the lollygaging. 

All I can say is bugger all will get done when he’s here because of all the gas bagging that will be going on. 😂😂

[Minibago]

This seems very much like the “New” TV show, every five minutes there is a reminder ad that it is coming, lots of fanfare, over and over and then, finally………….

 

Expectations are not met.

[nat]

 

    Were all bodies built using the same amount of wood, or did it depend where and by whom the bodies were made?

Edited May 19, 2023 by nat
Editing needed. (see edit history)

[MikeC5]

I'm sure it depended on manufacturer to some extent.  But rememner the Budd bodies were all steel (except for the floorboards).  

[Mattml430]

18 hours ago, nat said:

 

    Were all bodies built using the same amount of wood, or did it depend where and by whom the bodies were made?

As Mike said it would have depended on the body builder and the car. I would imagine they would have had templates for each model and cut each car from that. I’m very lucky with this car all the timber is pretty much there but just full of wood borers. So I will be removing the affected pieces and cutting new pieces from the old. 
Around the wheel arches I will be laminating thin pieces of ply to get the desired thickness and shape. It will be stronger than using just straight timber as with such a curve the grain gets very short across the piece.  

[Mattml430]

3 hours ago, Jack Bennett said:

Good luck Matt.

What a great project, especially if there are some youngsters to include in the rebuild process.

I am attracted to the completeness of the car, albeit is missing the doors, seats, and some other essentials, I note, even though there are no running boards, the foot scrapers are still installed, and look in great condition.

 

Thanks Jack. 
Finding a youngster these days that’s interested in anything other than their phone and themselves is almost impossible. Very sad really. 
The car is 90% complete, the doors were with it just not on when I picked it up from Ben’s place. The kick plates and mud scrapers are great aren’t they I’ll be just giving them a light sand blast and a polish and Nickle plating. 
I have 3 boxes of parts on the way from Tom & Cindy so once that arrives I’ll be onto the chassis rebuild. 

[30DodgePanel]

I'm curious about those mud scrapers...

I'd seen them on aprons before on several makes and never knew what they were called. I've mostly seen them with a set of step plates so I'm curious now, 1.) were these from the factory or were they an after market piece from someone like Imperial Brass and 2.) has anyone ever seen them on any 1928-32 era DB trucks with any other DB script like in the 2nd photo below?

 

 

 

 

Edited May 20, 2023 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[Mattml430]

45 minutes ago, 30DodgePanel said:

I'm curious about those mud scrapers...

I'd seen them on aprons before on several makes and never knew what they were called. I've mostly seen them with a set of step plates so I'm curious now, 1.) were these from the factory or were they an after market piece from someone like Imperial Brass and 2.) has anyone ever seen them on any 1928-32 era DB trucks with any other DB script like in the 2nd photo below?

 

 

 

 

I’ll have a look in the morning for any branding on them anywhere. 

[Mattml430]

12 hours ago, 30DodgePanel said:

I'm curious about those mud scrapers...

I'd seen them on aprons before on several makes and never knew what they were called. I've mostly seen them with a set of step plates so I'm curious now, 1.) were these from the factory or were they an after market piece from someone like Imperial Brass and 2.) has anyone ever seen them on any 1928-32 era DB trucks with any other DB script like in the 2nd photo below?

 

 

 

 

This is all I found on the guard plates. 
It is stamped RN. Most likely was a Victorian or South Australian casting company at a guess. 
 

[TonyAus]

I don't think 'mud scrapers' is the correct term.  I know them as kick plates.  The purpose of the flat ones on the chassis valance is to absorb the impact of a misplaced boot when entering the car.  My roadster did not have them fitted and I did have to remove a number of dents in the valances.  The large curved ones are to protect the front face of the rear guards in a similar manner or from items strapped to the running boards.  Of course these are accessories normally provided by the owner rather than the maker of the car. 

[Mattml430]

Yes agreed Tony for whatever reason I was thinking about the ones bolted to the running boards. The others I would also call kick plates. 
 

I always thought the ones on the running boards with the little kick up were for scrapping mud of your boots . 

[Minibago]

The roadster with the rear guard set back from the door access does not require the extra kick plate.

 

 

The rear door entry for the tourer is much closer so an extra kick plate is often used.

 

 

Matt, if the kick plate has a protruding turn up then it is incorrect, the kick plate curve should fit the body / running board valance curve neatly.

[Mattml430]

I was talking about these. 

[30DodgePanel]

 

 

6 hours ago, TonyAus said:

I don't think 'mud scrapers' is the correct term.  I know them as kick plates. 

Completely agree Tony...

I have always called any lower metal piece protecting an entry a kick plate on doors, never knew what they were called on antique cars... Naturally, in hindsight I should have said the obvious. Ironically I didn't want to confuse Matt so I used the lingo I read earlier thinking it would be better understood yet it confused the issue... 

 

@Mattml430, sorry for the confusion...

I only called them mud scrapers because I know nothing about the DB car accessories and after going back to your first post and not seeing any step plates/mud scrapers I thought that's what you and Jack were calling the ones on the apron,... I guess I read it wrong, my mistake...

EDIT: Went back and looked over this thread several times and still haven't found the mud scrapers you guys were referring to. Am I missing something?

 

I even had a thought "I wonder why they are calling those mud scrapers, are they for scraping the edge of your toes on your boots/shoes .... Oh well, mud scrapers it is..." lol. I've always called the ones that sit flat on the running boards  "step plates" (yes for scraping debris or mud from feet upon entry). 

 

I suppose the answer to my original question is they were never a factory direct item from DB but rather an aftermarket item from one of the many stamping companies around the globe (such as RN) at the time... If anyone has any with the DB stamping it would be nice to know if they exist.

 

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to look for the stamping on the back of the kick plates.

Dave

 

 

 

Edited May 21, 2023 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[Minibago]

1 hour ago, Mattml430 said:

I was talking about these. 

ahhh.

 

I think you will find that these are very recent (last 20 years or so)

Glen and Rosemary Smith of Vintage and Classic Reproductions in Brisbane do a range of step plates like these.

 

With a mat.

 

And the earlier rear curved kick plate.

 

 

 

[Mattml430]

I had these ones on my Victory sedan. 

[30DodgePanel]

Here are top pieces of step plates I bought over a year ago. Was thinking of putting them on my truck someday. Made by Imperial Brass out of Chicago.  I believe these would have been a special order because of the script and may be the only ones that exist... who knows?

 

Note the different script I spoke of earlier, I was hoping to nail down any info if these might have came from the factory but I doubt they did...

As far as I'm aware the 28-32 trucks used this script on all hubcaps so I figured it would be a nice touch someday. The ad is from an Imperial sales catalog showing how they would have appeared originally with a King Bee mat. Still looking for the bottom section but may end up making it out of aluminum stock and polishing to match. I doubt many trucks have them currently, but I have seen historical photos of step plates on DB/GB trucks so I'm leaning that way.

 

Sorry for the mini hijack Matt. As usual, you're doing a bang up job and I look forward to following the continued warp speed progress  

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 21, 2023 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)