Looking to make new wood flooring 1933 BUICK 67, what type of plywood?

[1933gray]

Hello all!

The wood panel flooring has just about disintegrated in my 1933 Buick model 67.
I of course would like to replace this flooring and can use the original pieces as templates for the new ones.

Someone suggested I should use marine plywood for this application (makes sense), but I was curious to know what everyone else has used in this situation.

The flooring is 3/4" and I really do not need much so I am not too worried about price.

Thanks!

[NewOldWood]

Marine grade Fir plywood would be a good choice. Or White Oak if it was originally a solid wood floor.

[old car fan]

Glue up solid  wood.

[wayne sheldon]

Certain types of plywood go back into the mid 1800s. However, plywood as we tend to think of doesn't go back nearly so far. Roughly quarter inch thick (and even thinner) small pieces were used for drawer bottoms in furniture. They began using this in the latter half of the 1800s due to its superior stability in damp climates. Early versions were usually one thicker center slice covered over by two thinner slices with the grain set about 90 degrees. This was expensive in its day due to the difficulty in slicing even relatively small sections of wood.

Something more like the five layer plywoods in thicker material and sizes were becoming available around the 1920s. Again still, it was quite expensive and usually available in much smaller sheets than what we are used to today. Three foot by four foot was a large piece! And it rarely was made with water-proof glue!

While it was available in sizes and strengths suitable for floorboards, it was considered too expensive for such use in those days.

 

I remember about 1960, nearly all common plywood was not suitable for outdoor use. "Outdoor" plywood cost about three times as much as did "indoor" plywood. At that point, 4X8 was readily available, however, it cost more per square foot than did smaller sizes! Due to higher manufacturing and handling cost, the larger sizes cost considerably more per square foot than the smaller sizes. 

As time went on, materials and methods improved. 4X8 became the standard size, and "outdoor" plywood cost dropped relative to the "indoor". By the 1980s, most plywood became "indoor/outdoor", and many lumber stores quit carrying the two separate types.

 

(All that is off the top of my head, and subject to some degree of error?)

 

All that to point out that there were solid reasons why automobile manufacturers used very little if any plywood in their cars prior to WW2.

 

Just to be keeping it correct to its era, methods and materials used should closely follow what was done in its original time.

[Bloo]

Were the originals solid wood? I believe Fisher was using plywood for removable floor parts by 1936. Multiple layers, too, not the early type (lumbercore?) that @wayne sheldon describes. I have re-laminated the ones in my 36 Pontiac. They pretty clearly weren't waterproof. I don't even know what they could have used for waterproof glue in 1933 (or 1936). Resorcinol wasn't a thing until 1941, or so I'm told. Blood glue maybe in 1936, though It would have been cutting edge in 1936 and I believe it needs a kiln. I suspect it was not yet available in 1933.

 

Edited January 22 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Dave39MD]

My 29, 31 Chevrolets,  31 Buick 60 series had plywood toe and floor boards. The 24 Chevy has solid wood boards.

 

Dave

[Walt G]

I agree with NewOldwood use Marine grade fir plywood.

[TAKerry]

If plywood is acceptable for the project I would use a marine grade. Keep in mind it will cost about 4 times what the home center wants for a piece of 3/4 AC.

[edinmass]

Pierce Arrow used plywood in 1933 in some spots of the car………..I would use marine plywood.

[1933gray]

17 hours ago, Bloo said:

Were the originals solid wood? I believe Fisher was using plywood for removable floor parts by 1936. Multiple layers, too, not the early type (lumbercore?) that @wayne sheldon describes. I have re-laminated the ones in my 36 Pontiac. They pretty clearly weren't waterproof. I don't even know what they could have used for waterproof glue in 1933 (or 1936). Resorcinol wasn't a thing until 1941, or so I'm told. Blood glue maybe in 1936, though It would have been cutting edge in 1936 and I believe it needs a kiln. I suspect it was not yet available in 1933.

 

The originals were plywood as described. Multiple layers of thin wood glued together and overtime the glue seems to have separated ad the wood itself has become dry and brittle. I would like to remain as original as possible with the floors as I have the rest of the vehicle. But last thing I need is my foot going through the floor and I then become Fred Flintstone! 

[old car fan]

Nobody will ever know the difference  between plywood vs a glue  up,unless  you pull them out. 

[Terry Wiegand]

I have a 1916 Buick 5-Passenger Touring  with a composite wood firewall.  The material is tongue and grooved White Ash with a thin veneer layer on both sides.  Why Fisher Body went that route instead of just making the firewall out of a little thicker solid material is totally beyond me, but this was what was done back then.  If this were me, I would go the solid board White Ash route and if necessary, tongue and groove the edges to get the proper width needed.  I would go out on that proverbial limb and say that a hardwood plywood would be more expensive than solid material.  Ask yourself what Fisher Body did back then and I think you will have your answer.  There are Hardwood Material Suppliers out there.  Do a Google search and see what White Ash is in different thicknesses per board foot.  I think you might be surprised.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

AACA Life Member #947918

[32buick67]

Original plywood with the black asphalt paint coating is shown on my 1932 sedan toe board.

Note the original fabric tacked to the perimeter to help reduce squeaks and ensure a tighter fit.

Looks like some repair attempts were made by others throughout the years (modern fasteners).

 

The mechanical rod and bracket system to the left of the clutch pedal is for the Wizard control button, which is similar to the 1933 power clutch foot button in the toe board.

Does your power clutch work, or do you plan to keep that original function?

 

I too considered a full replacement rebuild with marine plywood like others have wisely mentioned, but despite how dirty the original plywood was in my car, it was 95% in tact and solid, so I am reusing the boards - sealing and then installing new leather strips to replace the old cloth, repainting the metal brackets to clean things up a bit.

Its been an interesting discovery to find the factory stamped numbers in the wood.

I learned that the floor boards and fasteners (in a muslin bag in the tool compartment) were shipped loose from the factory to be installed by the dealer before the customer took possession of the car.

 

Cutting and shaping new marine plywood shouldn't be too difficult, but it can be putzy to get a nice fit and accommodate the pedals and other mechanisms.

If all of your wood is going to be replaced, I recommend starting with the toe board, then continue with the floor boards after the toe board has a nice fit

 

Wish you the best with your decisions and efforts. 

 

[1933gray]

3 hours ago, nat said:

     Marine plywood would undoubtedly be the best and most expensive.  

     I think AC plywood would hold up fine especially if sealed with paint, (with special attention to the edges).

     How much will you be using it in wet and sloppy conditions?  

     I think it was L. Francis Herreshoff that wondered why anyone would think a tree could be cut up into little pieces, glued back together and be better than it was to begin with.

In a perfect world, I would try to avoid the wet sloppy conditions as best as possible, but I would like to prepare to be in them if fate calls for it

[1933gray]

1 hour ago, 32buick67 said:

Original plywood with the black asphalt paint coating is shown on my 1932 sedan toe board.

Note the original fabric tacked to the perimeter to help reduce squeaks and ensure a tighter fit.

Looks like some repair attempts were made by others throughout the years (modern fasteners).

 

The mechanical rod and bracket system to the left of the clutch pedal is for the Wizard control button, which is similar to the 1933 power clutch foot button in the toe board.

Does your power clutch work, or do you plan to keep that original function?

 

I too considered a full replacement rebuild with marine plywood like others have wisely mentioned, but despite how dirty the original plywood was in my car, it was 95% in tact and solid, so I am reusing the boards - sealing and then installing new leather strips to replace the old cloth, repainting the metal brackets to clean things up a bit.

Its been an interesting discovery to find the factory stamped numbers in the wood.

I learned that the floor boards and fasteners (in a muslin bag in the tool compartment) were shipped loose from the factory to be installed by the dealer before the customer took possession of the car.

 

Cutting and shaping new marine plywood shouldn't be too difficult, but it can be putzy to get a nice fit and accommodate the pedals and other mechanisms.

If all of your wood is going to be replaced, I recommend starting with the toe board, then continue with the floor boards after the toe board has a nice fit

 

Wish you the best with your decisions and efforts. 

 

Unfortunately, the previous owner decided to remove the power clutch and seal the vacuum tubes up. I got it with the car thankfully so in a perfect world I will be reinstalling it. My toe board looks identical to yours pictured, but in far worse condition

I have a buddy who is experienced working with wood. Avoiding having to refit each piece would be great but I suppose I'll have to cross that bridge if I get to it.

Appreciate the wishes!

Have a good one!

[32buick67]

@1933gray sorry that your boards aren't in great condition, hopefully your friend is able to help, and they enjoy being part of the preservation process of a 90yo part of the American historical fabric...

I am a woodworker by hobby, and I have to admit that I would love to refit my car with teak or mahogany because its a fun process to adapt wood to cars, especially when preserving things for the future.

I don't like plywood much, unless its stable such as that found with Baltic birch.

Purpleheart would be my next choice for machinability and fireproofing, but I am not that extravagant nor that wealthy...

Let me know if you run into any snags and need measurements.

My 32-67 is a much shorter WB than your 33-67, but maybe there are things I can help with.

 

My wife's hobby is fiber related, so I get extra help from her with wool, spinning, and felting to make custom car parts.

I had no idea how often natural fibers such as dense wool felt were used on these prewar cars.

I have been trying out working with leather on the car, it seems the rough hides make the squeaks go away, ha.

 

[Bloo]

I re-laminated mine with plastic resin glue. It is very water resistant though not waterproof.  I poured a runny mix of plastic resin glue into every open crack or crevice from the edges, top, bottom, etc. Anywhere there was a void I dumped glue in. I used heavy trash bags as a release agent on both sides. I clamped it in a vise between 2 pieces of stiff plywood, and used a bunch of c clamps and woodworking clamps to put lots of pressure on it all over while it cured. It makes a mess, but for me it was worth it. Not good enough for a restoration probably as the boards are kind of beat up and chipped from years of use, and there's glue residue. Good enough for my old summertime driver though, and they are the original boards. I imagine they will delaminate more over time as a lot of the area is still held with the original glue which probably wasn't close to waterproof.

 

Marine plywood would be a more permanent solution.

[TAKerry]

13 hours ago, Terry Wiegand said:

I have a 1916 Buick 5-Passenger Touring  with a composite wood firewall.  The material is tongue and grooved White Ash with a thin veneer layer on both sides.  Why Fisher Body went that route instead of just making the firewall out of a little thicker solid material is totally beyond me, but this was what was done back then.  If this were me, I would go the solid board White Ash route and if necessary, tongue and groove the edges to get the proper width needed.  I would go out on that proverbial limb and say that a hardwood plywood would be more expensive than solid material.  Ask yourself what Fisher Body did back then and I think you will have your answer.  There are Hardwood Material Suppliers out there.  Do a Google search and see what White Ash is in different thicknesses per board foot.  I think you might be surprised.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

AACA Life Member #947918

It is stronger and more stable this way. A large board built up of smaller boards is less likely to split and warp. Covered with a veneer it will have an appearance of one larger board. It needs veneered on both sides as an equalizer otherwise the boards will cup badly towards the veneered side. As far as plywood being more expensive than hardwood, you obviously have not priced hardwood lately! 

 

For the OP a piece of 3/4 AC painted would be fine, but if one is going through the trouble may as well spend a bit more for marine grade. Once painted it would be hard to tell the difference, one will be a bit more weather resistant.

[Wayne R]

I notice most   members  say   marine grade is  best ---that is true  ,  marine ply wood,.

But rather than  painting it  go to a marine suppyer   they sell  a  marine  solution  called  Everdura,

think i have spelled it correctly,  use  2 coats,  with a brush  it is a clear    solution  used every day by boat builders,on inside of hulls,

  its  incredable  stops any and all moisture, easy to apply ,lasts the life of the wood,----then just paint the colour you want  over it.

i have built  3 boats  30 years ago ,while living in New Zealand.