Pneumatic tools: time to upgrade to electric?

[30DodgePanel]

On 12/31/2022 at 4:50 PM, NickG said:

G'day everyone,

 

Firstly, Happy New Year to all! I posted this over on an Australian forum, seeing as I am Australian, but I'd like to get a wider range of opinions. 

 

Here is the original topic;

 

G’day everyone,

 

I’ll be restoring an old American car in the new year and am after some help regarding tools.

 

As it is now, I’ve got a pretty extensive compressed air system. As a result, over the years, I’ve acquired enough air tools to sink a battle ship; drills, impact drivers, circular saws, chainsaws, grinders, even drill presses and a lathe. For the odd job here and there they work fine. It’s a bit more work to set up, but they are very powerful and do the job; just don’t start on the cost.

 

With that said, my question is, do/should air tools still hold a place in the home/work environment? Or is it better to replace the older air tools with newer ones? If not, what brands do people recommend for electric tools? How do 240V tools compare against 12/24/48V equivalents?

 

I love my air tools, and they certainly still have their place, despite the drawbacks, but I see now as a good time to modernize.

 

 

Here's a link to the forum for those interested: https://forums.whirlpool.net.au/thread/3rvjnrn2

 

Cheers

 

 

 

For home use? 

 

I'd like to be able to convert over to one type of power for simplicity and convenience, but until they come out with the right tool package at the right price for all home uses I'll continue with my hodge podge per uses.. I'm in the camp that uses all within their limits.

 

 

Air = Control/Some Convenience

Tried using a battery operated for those small jobs that take hours of tedious work and I find the batteries don't last or the tools start to overheat and I don't like the thought of stressing tools or pushing them to their breaking point. Translation: I don't like buying new ones because of my neglect.

Some things a Dremel will work good on (for control) but it's usually too small and takes way too long.

 

 

Juice = Pain in the ar*e but when you need real power it's there for the big jobs

(such as driving long threads through steel or concrete, think fencing or home addition work)..

 

 

Cordless = Convenience/Some Power 

Always handy on smaller jobs like some electrical or plumbing for sure but as mentioned, the heat of the tool and the battery longevity may factor in. 

I've had great luck with 18V Milwaukee tools and one Rigid 18V drill that I use most days. DeWalts have always failed and I stopped using their cordless tools all together because of it. I still have DeWalt electric and air tools but no more battery. 

 

My final take is that all cordless tools are not to be used to push extremes, common sense tells us that. They do have limitations and in all honesty will not last unless you pay extra for the right battery (as I'm sure most of us have encountered). On a final note, brushless is the way to go in my opinion. 

 

I don't see anyway around it. I need all forms of power to complete the work I do around my house. 

[Fordy]

Just a comment here with my 5 cents worth regarding the ubiquitous rattle gun. Air / battery or corded there is no way I would use one to torque anything up as I have seen way too many broken bolts and studs. Far better to do correct torques with a tension wrench. Save the rattle gun for UNDOING those stubborn buggers that won't budge with pure muscle power. As for other air tools I would have them in a flash over battery or corded.

[jp1gt]

14 hours ago, NickG said:

For applications where shorts bursts of air are required, then that works perfectly. But here, when usings saws and lathes, a constant demand for high pressure and high flow is required. But I see your point. 

 

There are a lot of idiots who like to play the 'let's see how close I can get' game. 

 

How do you find battery life and battery longevity? 

 

A cordless spray gun? I've heard it all now

 

That's true, the air tools work great and I certainly have nothing against air - in fact, it is my first preference over anything. At the end of the day, it was an attempt to reduce the electricity bill. Much more economical to charge a few batteries that to power a compressor and air dryer. 

 

We're limited with what we can do with our single-phase service, but this compressor is powered by a three-phase supply; it would be pulling more than 200A if it were fed from our 240V single-phase supply!

 

When the pumps are running, the cost of running the air tools is insignificant; however, when the pumps are not running and only the air tools are being used, then this is reversed. The pumps are only used for irrigation and maintaining water levels; the water we consume is municipal water. Leaks were a problem, but they have all since been corrected and the system will hold pressure once the compressor has stopped. In its day, this place was a farm, but now it's just a house on a few hundred acres, so all this equipment is for a home with two occupants. Maybe it made sense back then, but it is outdated now. 

A lot of times I need to blow something off. with air I need to turn the main air valve on(I shut it off so as not to leak air in the system) then get the air nozzle, then shut the main valve off. with the cordless air gun I just grab the gun and blow it off--I run a 15hp 3phase motor on single phase with a bunch of capacitors. On run it is less than 100 amps

[Larry Schramm]

6 hours ago, 30DodgePanel said:

I've had great luck with 18V Milwaukee tools and one Rigid 18V drill that I use most days. DeWalts have always failed and I stopped using their cordless tools all together because of it. I still have DeWalt electric and air tools but no more battery. 

 

Are they the older DeWalts or the newer 20 volt tools?   I have a bunch of the 20 volt DeWalts and I have been satisfied with them and their battery performance.

[Frank DuVal]

7 hours ago, Fordy said:

Air / battery or corded there is no way I would use one to torque anything up

I will with the proper "torque sticks", and still check with a torque wrench.

 

One does need to use the tool located between one's ears....  More helpful than people give credit to.

Edited January 2, 2023 by Frank DuVal (see edit history)

[joe_padavano]

21 minutes ago, Frank DuVal said:

I will with the proper "torque sticks", and still check with a torque wrench.

 

One does need to use the tool located between one's ears....  More helpful than people give credit to.

Lacking torque sticks, I use my pneumatic impact on reduced torque setting to run the lug nuts back on, then the torque wrench to tighten.

[Frank DuVal]

2 minutes ago, joe_padavano said:

Lacking torque sticks, I use my pneumatic impact on reduced torque setting to run the lug nuts back on, then the torque wrench to tighten.

There you go Joe, using that tool between your ears!👍

[30DodgePanel]

2 hours ago, Larry Schramm said:

 

Are they the older DeWalts or the newer 20 volt tools?   I have a bunch of the 20 volt DeWalts and I have been satisfied with them and their battery performance.

Older. Battery tools are hit or miss, I should have mentioned that. Glad they are working out for you. 

[joe_padavano]

51 minutes ago, Frank DuVal said:

There you go Joe, using that tool between your ears!👍

That plus to help keep my hat on.

[Larry Schramm]

1 hour ago, 30DodgePanel said:

Older. Battery tools are hit or miss, I should have mentioned that. Glad they are working out for you. 

 

That would be NiCad vs Lithium.  Lithium is a lot better.

[John Kelso]

I find it interesting no one mentioned Rigid. I bought my first battery powered drill 15/16 years ago. Rigid offers a life time

guarantee, yes I have used it and they have replaced the batteries more than once at no charge. I do a lot of body building

with ash and there tools hold up. I wouldn't buy anything else. My Australian friend likes to remind me that all my other tools

came from  Noah after he built the ark, they still work great.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[alsancle]

I'm a big believer in 18V tools.  The brush-less ones are more expensive but probably required if you are  using them professionally.    Always I needed a big ass compressor in my garage but the new tools make me question that.

[TAKerry]

I have a 60 gal compressor I use to pump up the tires regularly and paint once every couple of years. As a profession I have a large woodworking shop. I still have a couple of air guns that I use on occasion, a stapler and a couple of pin nailers/brad guns. Other than that I use mostly battery stuff. Some electric. I use the same tools on my car work. I have been using makita for 30+ years, I use an impact/screw gun just about every day. I can get a couple of years of daily use from one. I have milwaukee, and bosch. I like them all but the Makita is my go to. Another tool that gets used/abused on a regular basis is a ro palm sander. I go through a couple of them a year and have recently started to by ryobi electric for those. They are under $50 and run good for quite awhile. I was buying more expensive dewalt or makita sanders and found they wouldnt last any longer than the cheaper ones. I dont particularly go for ryobi as I think they are more of a homeowner quality tool, however I do have a heavy duty router (when they were still blue!) that is at least 30 yrs old and it still runs strong.

[arcticbuicks]

i have a few new milwaukee cordless higher end rechargable tools last few years,not worth buying cheap ones.......they are amazing with bright LED light,my impact driver with 1/4 inch socket adapter will take wheel nuts off,very impressed with the power and they are small and light 

[NickG]

On 1/2/2023 at 12:59 PM, 3macboys said:

 it was an attempt to reduce the electricity bill. 

 

Considering where you live a small solar set up to charge batteries would likely work for you.  I have an off grid cottage in northern Ontario that I put in a very small system, 2 150 W panels, charge controller, inverter and 2 6 volt AGM golf cart batteries hooked up in series for power storage.  It's more than enough to recharge tool batteries, charge a laptop and power a few LED lights in the cottage, unless of course there is rain for 3 days, in which case break out the candles and hand tools.  All in I think I spent less than $2000 Canadian as the various pieces are always going on sale and I took my time to accumulate what I needed.  

I haven't given much thought to a solar and battery system yet. It will be investigated in the future. $2000 isn't bad at all, quite reasonable. 

 

On 1/2/2023 at 2:08 PM, avgwarhawk said:

Lithium ion batteries are quite good. 

The technology has come a long way from the NiCad batteries. I believe they're pretty resilient, too. 

 

On 1/2/2023 at 9:25 PM, 30DodgePanel said:

For home use? 

 

I'd like to be able to convert over to one type of power for simplicity and convenience, but until they come out with the right tool package at the right price for all home uses I'll continue with my hodge podge per uses.. I'm in the camp that uses all within their limits.

 

 

Air = Control/Some Convenience

Tried using a battery operated for those small jobs that take hours of tedious work and I find the batteries don't last or the tools start to overheat and I don't like the thought of stressing tools or pushing them to their breaking point. Translation: I don't like buying new ones because of my neglect.

Some things a Dremel will work good on (for control) but it's usually too small and takes way too long.

 

 

Juice = Pain in the ar*e but when you need real power it's there for the big jobs

(such as driving long threads through steel or concrete, think fencing or home addition work)..

 

 

Cordless = Convenience/Some Power 

Always handy on smaller jobs like some electrical or plumbing for sure but as mentioned, the heat of the tool and the battery longevity may factor in. 

I've had great luck with 18V Milwaukee tools and one Rigid 18V drill that I use most days. DeWalts have always failed and I stopped using their cordless tools all together because of it. I still have DeWalt electric and air tools but no more battery. 

 

My final take is that all cordless tools are not to be used to push extremes, common sense tells us that. They do have limitations and in all honesty will not last unless you pay extra for the right battery (as I'm sure most of us have encountered). On a final note, brushless is the way to go in my opinion. 

 

I don't see anyway around it. I need all forms of power to complete the work I do around my house. 

I agree, having one system, pneumatic, hydraulic, electric, is the ideal situation. That's for the explanation and good to know Milwaukee is doing you well. Might stay away from the DeWalt cordless gear. 

 

Brushless seems to be the way to go. But I think, from what you've said, air tools are more appropriate for my application. I tend to push my tools hard. 

 

On 1/2/2023 at 9:50 PM, Fordy said:

Just a comment here with my 5 cents worth regarding the ubiquitous rattle gun. Air / battery or corded there is no way I would use one to torque anything up as I have seen way too many broken bolts and studs. Far better to do correct torques with a tension wrench. Save the rattle gun for UNDOING those stubborn buggers that won't budge with pure muscle power. As for other air tools I would have them in a flash over battery or corded.

Agreed. They're great at loosening, but would always use a torque wrench for tightening. 

 

On 1/3/2023 at 2:52 AM, jp1gt said:

A lot of times I need to blow something off. with air I need to turn the main air valve on(I shut it off so as not to leak air in the system) then get the air nozzle, then shut the main valve off. with the cordless air gun I just grab the gun and blow it off--I run a 15hp 3phase motor on single phase with a bunch of capacitors. On run it is less than 100 amps

You must be pushing your mains service to its limits!

 

On 1/3/2023 at 8:49 AM, JAK said:

I find it interesting no one mentioned Rigid. I bought my first battery powered drill 15/16 years ago. Rigid offers a life time

guarantee, yes I have used it and they have replaced the batteries more than once at no charge. I do a lot of body building

with ash and there tools hold up. I wouldn't buy anything else. My Australian friend likes to remind me that all my other tools

came from  Noah after he built the ark, they still work great.

 

Haven't heard much of Rigid here. Maybe it's aimed towards the professional market, but I seldom, if ever, come across their gear. Nothing wrong with old tools if they get the job done. I think I would prefer an old tool against a new on in all honesty. 

 

On 1/3/2023 at 9:03 AM, alsancle said:

I'm a big believer in 18V tools.  The brush-less ones are more expensive but probably required if you are  using them professionally.    Always I needed a big ass compressor in my garage but the new tools make me question that.

Cost isn't too much of a consideration as long as they're reliable and get the job done. 

On 1/4/2023 at 1:23 AM, arcticbuicks said:

i have a few new milwaukee cordless higher end rechargable tools last few years,not worth buying cheap ones.......they are amazing with bright LED light,my impact driver with 1/4 inch socket adapter will take wheel nuts off,very impressed with the power and they are small and light 

I agree, buy the expensive one. You'll regret the cheap ones. 

[TAKerry]

Rigid was a heavy duty commercial only tool for years, aimed mostly at the plumbing industry. Then it became Home Depots brand tool. They were dumbed down greatly. They are ok, I dont like the feel of most of their stuff though. Dewalt is kinda the same. They were a great industrial tool, then again kinda dumbed down. It seems most everyone I know uses them exclusively, I had a couple of their tools and never got the urge. Porter Cable was another brand that back in the day was high quality. Then they started selling at Lowes and guess what happened? Yep, dumbed down! Rockwell made the best saws money could buy, then they merged/became Delta. Another one of those semi-industrial tools that is ..................(broken record) just another cheap plastic tool today.

I was talking to my paint salesman of all people about Festool and I mentioned a very old Ryobi router I had. He was surprised and thought that they were a new brand! 

The good thing is that now any kind of power tool is available within about an hour drive of most people at a reasonable price. Thats a good thing because anything you buy now will have to be replaced every couple of years.

[jp1gt]

7 hours ago, NickG said:

 

 

You must be pushing your mains service to its limits!

 

 

Yes, for one second on startup!  fortunately it has a 200 gal tank and does not start up very often.

[hidden_hunter]

4 hours ago, TAKerry said:

Rigid was a heavy duty commercial only tool for years, aimed mostly at the plumbing industry. Then it became Home Depots brand tool. They were dumbed down greatly. They are ok, I dont like the feel of most of their stuff though

It’s never really been a brand here either

 

The other thing to remember with power tools is that a lot of badge engineering goes on (sometimes with just changes to make them incompatible with each other) e.g. go and look at what TTI owns

[Frank DuVal]

11 hours ago, NickG said:

You must be pushing your mains service to its limits!

??? You said you have a 110KW compressor! That is not at all possible on our home services. 🤔

[Frank DuVal]

Rigid and Milwaukee corded tools are still good tools. The Milwaukee Fuel 18 line is powerful, but guys at work still burn them up. 😡 

 

Black and Decker was a professional brand, then bought Dewalt, and Dewalt stayed professional and B&D became homeowner tool line. Then number crunchers…..😡

Edited January 5, 2023 by Frank DuVal (see edit history)

[hidden_hunter]

18 minutes ago, Frank DuVal said:

??? You said you have a 110KW compressor! That is not at all possible on our home services. 

As far as I know it’s not possible on our residential 3 phase either 

[NickG]

On 1/6/2023 at 12:32 AM, TAKerry said:

Rigid was a heavy duty commercial only tool for years, aimed mostly at the plumbing industry. Then it became Home Depots brand tool. They were dumbed down greatly. They are ok, I dont like the feel of most of their stuff though. Dewalt is kinda the same. They were a great industrial tool, then again kinda dumbed down. It seems most everyone I know uses them exclusively, I had a couple of their tools and never got the urge. Porter Cable was another brand that back in the day was high quality. Then they started selling at Lowes and guess what happened? Yep, dumbed down! Rockwell made the best saws money could buy, then they merged/became Delta. Another one of those semi-industrial tools that is ..................(broken record) just another cheap plastic tool today.

I was talking to my paint salesman of all people about Festool and I mentioned a very old Ryobi router I had. He was surprised and thought that they were a new brand! 

The good thing is that now any kind of power tool is available within about an hour drive of most people at a reasonable price. Thats a good thing because anything you buy now will have to be replaced every couple of years.

I have heard of Rigid being aimed towards the plumbing sector, but that's about it. Very true, nothing seems to have the longevity of tools from yesteryear. 

On 1/6/2023 at 1:29 AM, jp1gt said:

Yes, for one second on startup!  fortunately it has a 200 gal tank and does not start up very often.

Just as well! Your electricity provider must be happy with you. 

On 1/6/2023 at 5:31 AM, hidden_hunter said:

It’s never really been a brand here either

 

The other thing to remember with power tools is that a lot of badge engineering goes on (sometimes with just changes to make them incompatible with each other) e.g. go and look at what TTI owns

Of course they would do that, the less-compatibility the more locked-in you become. 

On 1/6/2023 at 5:33 AM, Frank DuVal said:

??? You said you have a 110KW compressor! That is not at all possible on our home services. 🤔

That's right, but many years ago our supply was upgraded and over-rated, such that there's is enough capacity; it's being pushed to its limit now!

On 1/6/2023 at 5:52 AM, hidden_hunter said:

As far as I know it’s not possible on our residential 3 phase either 

That's right. Over the years it has been upgraded significantly, the last upgrade employed CT metering I recall, but I will have to check what the rating is. 

[64avanti]

For running your air tools I suggest getting an 80 gallon 7.5 HP 3 phase 2 stage compressor. A good quality unit will be less than $4,000.00. You don't really need a dryer for this usage; just drain the tank every day.

 

I've been running my woodworking business for 25 years with an Emglo 5 HP 3 Phase 2 stage 80 gallon compressor. It keeps up with multiple Dynabrade RO sanders, a spray booth running 2 to 6 hours a day, nail guns, etc. I have a 5 stage desiccant system in the spray room to keep the air clean and dry. I have a manual drain on the tank, and oil/water separators with drains at every drop.

 

I only run out of air when I am sandblasting and someone starts using the RO sanders. Otherwise, no problem keeping up.

 

I much prefer my air tools over most of my electric tools.

 

Cost wise, I am, unfortunately, on a demand meter, and I have several machines that have high starting amps, so I usually end up at about 15Kwh at demand price, about $150.00 or so each month. The rest of my bill is $250.00ish each month. My compressor is not one of the machines that kicks the demand meter; my planer and dust collector are the worst offenders there .

 

Anyway, I'd take a second look at getting a smaller compressor and keeping your air tools.

[Frank DuVal]

22 hours ago, 64avanti said:

and I have several machines that have high starting amps,

Sounds like you need VFDs to slow the start for lower amp draw. You can program the starting curve (acceleration time) 

 

BTW, 5 HP is 5 HP, does not matter if it is single phase or three phase. Just depends on what electric service one has as to what motor to buy. Three phase motors are cheaper than single phase motors.

 

Now, there are single phase 5 HP "compressor duty" motors that are not really 5 HP, those are a different breed. You can tell those because the amp draw is not that of a standard 5 HP single phase motor.

[NickG]

On 1/15/2023 at 4:45 PM, 64avanti said:

For running your air tools I suggest getting an 80 gallon 7.5 HP 3 phase 2 stage compressor. A good quality unit will be less than $4,000.00. You don't really need a dryer for this usage; just drain the tank every day.

 

I've been running my woodworking business for 25 years with an Emglo 5 HP 3 Phase 2 stage 80 gallon compressor. It keeps up with multiple Dynabrade RO sanders, a spray booth running 2 to 6 hours a day, nail guns, etc. I have a 5 stage desiccant system in the spray room to keep the air clean and dry. I have a manual drain on the tank, and oil/water separators with drains at every drop.

 

I only run out of air when I am sandblasting and someone starts using the RO sanders. Otherwise, no problem keeping up.

 

I much prefer my air tools over most of my electric tools.

 

Cost wise, I am, unfortunately, on a demand meter, and I have several machines that have high starting amps, so I usually end up at about 15Kwh at demand price, about $150.00 or so each month. The rest of my bill is $250.00ish each month. My compressor is not one of the machines that kicks the demand meter; my planer and dust collector are the worst offenders there .

 

Anyway, I'd take a second look at getting a smaller compressor and keeping your air tools.

I didn't end up posting it here, but over on the initial Australia forum I posted an update. I'll post it below.

 

It's served you well for 25 years and continues to do so. I haven't heard of Dynabrade. If you use them in your business application, then they must be of a good quality. I agree, after considering everyone's advice, the air tools still hold a special place and I doubt I'll change. I'm not familiar with energy prices in the States, but that sounds quite reasonable. Without the compressor running, my bill has never been under $800 AUD a month. 

 

G'day everyone,

 

A quick update for those interested.

 

110kW compressor is up and running. My electricity provider will be loving me.

 

Also, more importantly, I have been poring over everyone's contributions and have made a decision.

 

Considering I have all the tools I'll ever need and the appropriate infrastructure is already in place, I've decided to install a smaller compressor and dryer to provide air to the shed for the purpose of powering tools when the main compressor isn't operating. It will no doubt cost more, both upfront and ongoing, but I feel it is more practical to use an existing system, rather than staring anew.

 

The compressor is a 30kW VSD screw compressor. 30kW is a low of power, but being a VSD, it is able to regulate power consumption according to demand, rather than a load/unload control system. It should seldom run at the full 30kW; just at startup to charge the system, but it is nice to have some reserve capacity.

 

Thanks to everyone for their contributions, it has been a great learning experience and I certainly am armed with knowledge should I go forth and buy a few battery tools.

 

[Frank DuVal]

Sounds great. Good solution. You will never need all that 30 kW unless you start having employees or lots of friends over.

[64avanti]

13 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

Sounds like you need VFDs to slow the start for lower amp draw. You can program the starting curve (acceleration time) 

 

i never thought of that. I'm familiar with VFDs, so I will investigate further. Thanks for the suggestion!  

[Frank DuVal]

Some loads can tolerate really long acceleration times, some not, like piston compressors. Planer and dust collector should be fine is my thought. Maybe a woodworking forum will have more thoughts.

[64avanti]

10 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

Some loads can tolerate really long acceleration times, some not, like piston compressors. Planer and dust collector should be fine is my thought. Maybe a woodworking forum will have more thoughts.

Speaking of which, I have been a member of owwm.org (Old Woodworking Machines) for 15 years. Great forum and very helpful. My shop is full of old machines-a bandsaw made in 1894,  metal lathe from 1942, jointer from 1912, and so on. The jointer and bandsaw both have babbit bearings, which I learned how to pour and scrape on that site.

See how I turned it sort of back to antique cars?

[NickG]

15 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

Sounds great. Good solution. You will never need all that 30 kW unless you start having employees or lots of friends over.

It's definitely going to cost more overall, but it is the most convenient and practical solution; it's merely a slight modification to an existing network. It's perfect! This is has computer control and all the gear that goes with it, the other compressors are just on and off buttons. The point is, the new one sits at 30kW for a minute - minute-and-a-half, then when pressurized, and whilst working with tools, doesn't go past 5kW. It's fine running most of the tools, even with two circular saws running, but the lathe and demolition saw border on its capacity. 

 

15 hours ago, 64avanti said:

 

i never thought of that. I'm familiar with VFDs, so I will investigate further. Thanks for the suggestion!  

They're fantastic! I wish I had implemented them sooner. I can only speak pertaining to compressors. With the load/unload control system, the compressor is still consuming 1/3 of its rated power when unloaded! All the energy - and money - is going to waste. The VSD is a great addition where appropriate. 

 

5 hours ago, 64avanti said:

Speaking of which, I have been a member of owwm.org (Old Woodworking Machines) for 15 years. Great forum and very helpful. My shop is full of old machines-a bandsaw made in 1894,  metal lathe from 1942, jointer from 1912, and so on. The jointer and bandsaw both have babbit bearings, which I learned how to pour and scrape on that site.

See how I turned it sort of back to antique cars?

Wow, what a great array of machinery. Glad to know it's still in service. They're from a time when things were built to last. 

[halifaxhops]

I basically switched over to Ridgid 18V tools.  Love them the impact gun is a beast.  There are package deals on them and the best part they are guaranteed forever, even the batteries, seriously.

[NickG]

I've heard good things about Rigid in the past. If they are really guaranteed forever, then that is impressive.