Otto Cycle Engine.

[Dandy Dave]

Before the Automobile had a reliable gasoline engine there was the Otto cycle engine. Got some work to do on this early example. Valves and seats are in ruff shape after around 130 years. Going to need to make a new valve and clean the seats up. Thought some of you would like to see this. Before I could even make a decision to work on it the parts were loaded in the back of my pick up. I've been vounteered. 😉

 

[Dandy Dave]

The Valves. Exhaust in photo 1 is really crusty. I'll see if I can clean up the intake and seat. 

[1937hd45]

Looks like the floor in the Kent Rail Road storage building. 

[Dandy Dave]

7 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said:

Looks like the floor in the Kent Rail Road storage building. 

😁 Shhhhhhsh Bob. It's a secret. 🙃 They aquired two really nice early engines. Speaking of the railroad they also loaded air compressor parts in the back of my truck that need machine work. These fit the Hawaiian locomotive. Some pitting on walls of the steam side and a worn slide valve. Thinking about  boring and sleeving it with a stainless steel sleeve. Other parts I have to think about just how to go about it. Even after years of doing stuff there are still challanges as of yet unconquered.

[wayne sheldon]

For people not familiar with these incredible engines, and their very important place in history, a recent thread with some discussion about them.

 

https://forums.aaca.org/topic/384817-otto-horz-stroke-1-cyl-gas-engine-can-some-give-me-some-history-on-this-one/#comment-2426734

 

It must be an honor to work on one.

[Dandy Dave]

10 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

It must be an honor to work on one.

Yes sir. When is the last time you did a valve job on an Otto? 😜 

All joking aside. Just being trusted with these rare and valuble parts made of unobtainium speaks volumes. This is the Duesenburg of Gas engines.

Otto was the inventor of the modern 4 cycle engine. Blew a lot of trial engines apart trying to get one to work. He defineatly had persurverance. We would not have the modern gas engine today if it was not for his work in the field.

[drhach]

Are you going to try to build the surface up and grind them back in to shape or try to lap them and use as is? Or are you going ot run down to NAPA and buy some new ones

[Dandy Dave]

These are way beyond lapping. I'm going to make at least one new valve. Possibly two. I was measuring things yesterday. I do have a guide and stones for my Sioux valve seat grinder that will work on the intake. It has a 7/16 guide. The exhaust is another story as it is somewhere between 7/16th and 1/2 inch with a badly worn valve stem and guide. I'm thinking of reaming that guide up to 1/2 inch and making a valve to fit. The seats must have been ground in the past as they are way too wide for the valve.  First I'm off to make a pair of axles for a 1910 EMF. I started on that job yesterday.

Edited November 22, 2022 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Dave, you finally found an internal combustion engine that is almost the same age as you! 😝

 

Very neat project, the kind of thing I like to get my hands on……..something that literally is history.  You get the seldom awarded three thumbs up.👍👍👍

[Dandy Dave]

2 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Dave, you finally found an internal combustion engine that is almost the same age as you! 😝

 

Very neat project, the kind of thing I like to get my hands on……..something that literally is history.  You get the seldom awarded three thumbs up.👍👍👍

You know Ed, I feel 130 years old. Real creaky when I first get up. Trouble navigating stairs. Just a crabby and cranky old knuckle buster. Takes me till noon to get going. And that's without any Captian Morgan in at least a week or more. 😵🤪🤓 

Thanks for the three tumbs up. I'll keep posting progress. 🙂

 

[1937hd45]

I remember using the NEWAY Valve seat cutters in place of the more common stones. Angled cuts gave a fine contact area on the valve. 

 

Valve Seat Cutters - NEWAY (newaymfg.com)

Edited November 22, 2022 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[Larry Schramm]

Here is an article on Otto engines from Old Iron magazine.

 

https://www.gasenginemagazine.com/gas-engines/oldest-otto-4-stroke-engine-zm0z22aszawar/?utm_source=wcemail&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=FCM GEM eNews 11-22-22&wc_totalkey=AxNzrs4rWfM61_o-v6dKHwxhC1BvkozzLmAdcpw2LzDiNNNfqEyWiXHXC0TO-4j_mdEb9yMfcISvh08sQIbwvA

[Mark Wetherbee]

We (volunteers) had the opportunity to do a little work on an OTTO at the Owls Head Museum a few years ago. A very historic piece of equipment that gets started on occasion now that it’s back together. The noise it made was impressive, and the “muffler” which looks like a drain pipe running up the outside of the building doesn’t quite soften its effect.

 

 I’ll look forward to seeing a video of that one running!

[Dandy Dave]

12 hours ago, Mark Wetherbee said:

We (volunteers) had the opportunity to do a little work on an OTTO at the Owls Head Museum a few years ago. A very historic piece of equipment that gets started on occasion now that it’s back together. The noise it made was impressive, and the “muffler” which looks like a drain pipe running up the outside of the building doesn’t quite soften its effect.

 

 I’ll look forward to seeing a video of that one running!

I'll get a video of it running when I get the valves made and installed. Photo's of the process inbetween. Now off to order some stock to make them. Thinking of buying a good video camera that will take better videos and have more memory than the cheap little camera that I have. Something that will mount to a tripod and have a lot of recording time. No Idea of what to get and I see there are a ton to pick from. Dandy Dave! 

[Dandy Dave]

20 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

I remember using the NEWAY Valve seat cutters in place of the more common stones. Angled cuts gave a fine contact area on the valve. 

 

Valve Seat Cutters - NEWAY (newaymfg.com)

I have found that it depends on what your doing and how hard the valve seats are whether you can use the valve seat cutters or not.

[Dandy Dave]

One valve made. This is the intake. One to go. Stem made in photo 1. Original valve on top. Cutting off a piece of stock for the head. Love that old power Hack Saw. My 13 X 42 South Bend Lathe is the go to tool for turning this job.

 

Edited December 8, 2022 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[Dandy Dave]

Turning the Valve head. I threaded the new stem and new head to 1/2- 13. and put them together and then welded at the base to insure it will not come loose. Turning the valve face and head.

 

[Dandy Dave]

Finished Valve. I had to make the head larger to fit the seat correctly.

 

[EmTee]

Does it need to be hardened or heat treated?  How did you refinish the seat?  Likewise, did you ream the guide, or does it have inserts?

[Dandy Dave]

I ran it though my Sioux valve refacer to put a finish grind on it. Also I ground the seat with the Sioux valve seat refacer. Then lapped the seat and valve together. The Guide was reamed to 7/16th. The material is 4140. We are not going to harden it. This is a very slow RPM engine, The original valves are not that hard. The Valve I made will last for years.   

Edited December 8, 2022 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[Dandy Dave]

11 minutes ago, EmTee said:

Does it need to be hardened or heat treated?  How did you refinish the seat?  Likewise, did you ream the guide, or does it have inserts?

Look up. ☝️ 😁

[Dandy Dave]

Why a new valve? Here is the problem in better detail. Note the original valve drops beyond the face of the seat.

 

[SC38dls]

Dave, will you adopt me? Your shop is full of all the toys any car guy would love PLUS you know how to use them. If you’re not willing to adopt can I at least sweep your floors and watch you work? Maybe something would rub off on this old brain of mine. 
dave s 

[Dandy Dave]

10 hours ago, SC38dls said:

Dave, will you adopt me? Your shop is full of all the toys any car guy would love PLUS you know how to use them. If you’re not willing to adopt can I at least sweep your floors and watch you work? Maybe something would rub off on this old brain of mine. 
dave s 

LOL. My Wife says no. But you can hang around and watch if you like. 😁 

[Terry Harper]

Great work Dave!
In regards to valves a number of years ago I needed valves for my big Wisconsin T-head. 2-5/8 head and a long, long stem. I purchased a set of blanks from Carl M Cummings Machine (CMC) in Rockville, Maryland. They specialize large valves for diesel locomotives, marine and industrial applications. The price was very reasonable. The set I got are a bi-alloy stainless the stems were slightly oversized but since I had to fabricate new guides that wasn’t a problem. The heads turned and finished great and it was a straight forward job cutting the grooves for the keepers and parting to length. Something to keep in mind next time you need outsized valves.

Edited December 9, 2022 by Terry Harper (see edit history)

[Dandy Dave]

7 hours ago, Terry Harper said:

Great work Dave!
In regards to valves a number of years ago I needed valves for my big Wisconsin T-head. 2-5/8 head and a long, long stem. I purchased a set of blanks from Carl M Cummings Machine (CMC) in Rockville, Maryland. They specialize large valves for diesel locomotives, marine and industrial applications. The price was very reasonable. The set I got are a bi-alloy stainless the stems were slightly oversized but since I had to fabricate new guides that wasn’t a problem. The heads turned and finished great and it was a straight forward job cutting the grooves for the keepers and parting to length. Something to keep in mind next time you need outsized valves.

I would have looked around for something close, but these are so unusual with the threaded ends for the adjustable keepers that I just plain needed to fabricate them from scratch. Trying to cut threads in a hardened valve stem is no fun. Depending on the grade, Stainless can be tough to work with. Also, getting them to fit the seats correctly after grinding would be another problem. With these I still have enough meat to turn metal off if I need to for them to fit correctly. When you buy valves off of the shelf it is hard to say how the metal will turn until a lathe tool is put to the test. 

[Dandy Dave]

The new exhaust valve is made. Doing the exhaust seat is going to be a challange as it is way down inside of the cylinder. No way to remove it as it is part of the block. I have a driver for doing airplane cylinder seats. It may work. If not, I may need to make an extention 

 

 

[Dandy Dave]

Both Valves together. The exhaust has a much longer stem.

 

[SC38dls]

13 hours ago, Dandy Dave said:

LOL. My Wife says no. But you can hang around and watch if you like. 😁 

Your wife is a wise woman, I would keep her around if I were you!  
dave s 

[Briann]

On 12/9/2022 at 5:53 AM, Dandy Dave said:

The new exhaust valve is made. Doing the exhaust seat is going to be a challange as it is way down inside of the cylinder. No way to remove it as it is part of the block. I have a driver for doing airplane cylinder seats. It may work. If not, I may need to make an extention 

 

 

Very nice engine 

Here is one i made years ago i think it was for a Olds or Massey 

I had a extra   stone holder machined it to fit one end and put a socket  at the other for the B&D valve seat drill 

Edited December 11, 2022 by Briann (see edit history)

[Dandy Dave]

10 hours ago, Briann said:

Very nice engine 

Here is one i made years ago i think it was for a Olds or Massey 

I had a extra   stone holder machined it to fit one end and put a socket  at the other for the B&D valve seat drill 

Here is what I ended up doing. I used Some Torx sockets that I had on hand and used a piece of 1/2 inch key stock between them. I had the inverted ones on hand from working on a Caterpillar skid steer loader that spun a rod years ago. The connecting rods had those inverted Torx heads on them.  The long snout driver would not work as it has an angle on the end and there was not quite enough room to get in the hole where the intake fit.

 

[Dandy Dave]

My portable box of valve seat grinding stuff. There's even more at the shop. The exhaust seat way down in the hole. This engine has no gaskets where the intake assembly fits. It has taperd seats. The first two shown. The exhaust valve seat is the third blury seat in the bottom where the guide is. 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[Dandy Dave]

Here is the exhaust valve after lapping. My oversize valve heads worked out perfect. Engine plate with a serial number. Another photo showing the mess after reassembly on the skid. 

[Dandy Dave]

First You Tube Video of the Otto. She was stubborn about starting. Had to stop and oil it up good. 

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[Dandy Dave]

Youtube video of it running. We still have a few bugs to work out. This engine originally had an igniter. Somewhere along it's long history someone converted it to a jump spark - spark plug ignition. I have to do some machining on some of the linkage to get it to kick the magneto better. 

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Fun project. I agree with you valve comments on what you buy isn’t always what you’re expecting. Most of the time they are much too soft. In this Otto case………your valves will last 500 years.

[Dandy Dave]

11 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Fun project. I agree with you valve comments on what you buy isn’t always what you’re expecting. Most of the time they are much too soft. In this Otto case………your valves will last 500 years.

Had a discusion with a friend years ago. He had read somewhere that even if these early engines survive, the scientific community's take on preservation was that the metal would beak down over time and crystallize to the point that these would not beable to run.  

[Dandy Dave]

The other early engine that was aquired by the club. A National. 

[SC38dls]

Damn, Dave you do good work. If you an Ed got together in an engine building business I’ll be your marketing guy. I’m positive it would be a very lucrative adventure for both of you. I’ll just take the first engine as my first years pay and as a demo model in the car you two restore first. Something along the lines of a nice Packard, Buick, Lincoln or even a Duisenberg if you want. Better yet a PA !! 

 

All kidding aside, that is really a great job. Congratulations. 
dave s 

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by SC38dls (see edit history)

[Dandy Dave]

Spent some time with the old Otto gas engine. We have her tuned in now. It ran great for the one day Gas Engine Show at the C.A.M.A. grounds in Kent, CT. Here's a video my wife took of me oiling it up.