1963 Booster and Pedal Questions

[Aaron65]

Hi everyone,

Sorry to front load you all with questions two days after my car gets off the trailer, but I've been doing a ton of work on it over the weekend and now I have to deal with the brakes.  The previous owner at some point not too long ago replaced most of the brake system, including the booster.  Well, he said it's never worked right.  I've checked the vacuum and the booster's check valve, and everything checks (ha ha) out.  

I've attached a couple pictures: First, is this the right booster?  Harmon's Classic Brakes' website shows a different style for the '63, and the hodge podge of vacuum lines to the booster seem to point in that direction.  Second, the brake pedal seems a lot higher than the gas pedal.  Is that normal in these cars?  Finally, is my pedal to booster linkage correct, or at least is it usable (I'm not a stickler for exact originality)?  Thanks again for all your timely help!

 

 

[Jim Cannon]

That is not the original style booster.  I can send you pictures of the correct one.

 

The brake pedal position is incorrect.  This indicates someone has put in something and modified it to make it work.

 

The linkage to the brake pedal is incorrect. This is not something to fool around with.  Brake failure on a 4200 pound car could be fatal.

 

I think the master cylinder looks correct.

 

Here's some of the details about brakes of this era that the previous owner might not have know:

The master cylinders and the boosters were made with either a shallow hole in the piston of the MC (about 1/4 inch deep) or with a deep hole (about 1 inch deep). The parts always need to be kept matched. If this guy has a mixture of one and the other, you will have problems. Or if the booster used  (I can tell it is from a later model GM vehicle) is not designed for the piston hole depth that is installed, it is not going to work right.

 

The previous owner probably did not know where to get the original booster rebuilt (Booster Dewey) and the details on matching MC to booster.  You can get it all right and build on his other new brake work (assuming it was done right and not botched up like the booster).

 

You can inspect the new brake hoses and see if they are new as claimed or old.  One on the rear axle and one at each front wheel. You will also want to open up the wheels, look at the brakes, confirm that work was done right.  Make sure parking brake is lubricated and working correctly.

 

You may also want to put in a dual master cylinder now, while you have it all apart.  Then if you have a brake hydraulic system leak, you only lose half of the brake system.  Not great, but better than nothing.

 

I find it crazy that previous owner would drive a car and sell a car with the brakes not right.

 

 

[Aaron65]

Thanks for the information, Jim.  Please do send me a picture of the original style booster.  Thanks!

 

Oh, I did check the hoses today, and they have definitely been replaced.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Aaron65 (see edit history)

[EmTee]

Based on your observations, pictures above and Jim's comments, it sounds like the master cylinder/booster/pedal interfaces are suspect...

[Aaron65]

6 minutes ago, EmTee said:

Based on your observations, pictures above and Jim's comments, it sounds like the master cylinder/booster/pedal interfaces are suspect...

Yes, I'm hoping that a correct booster will clear up these problems.  😊

[Chasander]

Aaron I’m also from Michigan. I try to attend the Veteran car shows around Saginaw. Hope to to see your car at one. 

[Jim Cannon]

14 hours ago, Aaron65 said:

Thanks for the information, Jim.  Please do send me a picture of the original style booster.  Thanks!

 

Oh, I did check the hoses today, and they have definitely been replaced.

[63 nut]

I could also use a picture of the correct booster if it is not to much trouble. Breaks are one of my winter projects. Thank you

[1965rivgs]

14 hours ago, Aaron65 said:

Yes, I'm hoping that a correct booster will clear up these problems.  😊

  I have this one with what I believe is the correct master cylinder. Offering this strictly as a core as I have no idea whether it is operational. $50 plus shipping.

  If interested, send me a PM

Tom Mooney

[Aaron65]

I'll take that Tom...I'll PM you later in the day...thanks!

[TexRiv_63]

Along with replacing the booster with right one you should consider switching to a dual reservoir master cylinder.

[gungeey]

2 hours ago, 1965rivgs said:

  I have this one with what I believe is the correct master cylinder. Offering this strictly as a core as I have no idea whether it is operational. $50 plus shipping.

  If interested, send me a PM

Tom Mooney

 

 

Do you have parts growing in your yard now? If so can you plant some NOS exhaust pipe and hanger seeds? 😆

Edited November 7, 2022 by gungeey (see edit history)

[1965rivgs]

29 minutes ago, gungeey said:

 

 

Do you have parts growing in your yard now? If so can you plant some NOS exhaust pipe and hanger seeds? 😆

  As my hair falls out more Riviera parts appear....just write Waldron`s a check

Tom

[Aaron65]

OK, Tom has offered to sell me a booster, but I'm worried that my brake pedal is missing the original pin to hold the pushrod.  Any recommendations of what I should do to repair that?

[XframeFX]

Do you have the external check valve for 1963?

[Aaron65]

Yes, I do. 

[telriv]

I've got a pedal assembly from a '64 which is the same but has the hook-up for the electric brake light switch on the pedal assembly which I will include plus the clips & ALL that's nec. to install. 

Much better set-up with the switch mounted inside instead of outside & no need to worry about hydraulic pressure.

 

Tom T.

[SwedeDownUnderR63]

8 minutes ago, telriv said:

I've got a pedal assembly from a '64 which is the same but has the hook-up for the electric brake light switch on the pedal assembly which I will include plus the clips & ALL that's nec. to install. 

Much better set-up with the switch mounted inside instead of outside & no need to worry about hydraulic pressure.

 

Tom T.

Hi Tom,

let me know if Aaron doesn’t want it as I am looking to convert the setup in my ‘63 to a ‘64 brake light switch.

[Aaron65]

PM sent, Tom.

[Jim Cannon]

I converted my '63 brake light switch over from hydraulic to mechanical switch, as Tom suggests, by installing a '64 brake pedal and bracket assembly into my '63. Not that hard to do, when you have the booster out anyway.  You need to route the wires inside the car from under the hood and extend them to get down to the new brake light switch location. Easy to do.  You will need to remove the dash pad and work from above and below.  The steering column also attaches to the brake pedal bracket, as I recall.

 

 

[Jim Cannon]

12 hours ago, Aaron65 said:

I'll take that Tom...I'll PM you later in the day...thanks!

For the benefit of the new '63 Riviera owners, let me advise/remind you that a special o-ring with a square cross section must be installed on the neck of whatever master cylinder you use with a stock '63 brake booster.  Later boosters do not need it, but GM kept the groove in the neck of the later master cylinders.

 

Without the o-ring, you have a massive vacuum leak and no boost.

 

If you have Booster Dewey rebuild your booster, he can supply the special o-ring.

 

Tom's picture reminds me that I have seen some original cars with the booster yellow cad plated and others with it painted satin black. I don't know why they are different. Perhaps it was a Bendix-supplied versus Delco-supplied thing (that's the shallow hole versus deep hole in the master cylinder piston thing).

[Riviera63]

7 hours ago, Jim Cannon said:

I converted my '63 brake light switch over from hydraulic to mechanical switch, as Tom suggests, by installing a '64 brake pedal and bracket assembly into my '63. Not that hard to do, when you have the booster out anyway.  You need to route the wires inside the car from under the hood and extend them to get down to the new brake light switch location. Easy to do.  You will need to remove the dash pad and work from above and below.  The steering column also attaches to the brake pedal bracket, as I recall.

 

 

 

Jim,

 

Do you know if a brake pedal and bracket from a 65 will work? If it does, I have a pedal, bracket and switch from a 65. If anyone is interested, PM me. Thanks.

 

Bill

[Chasander]

If you use silicone brake fluid the hydraulic brake switch will fail after a while. 

[1965rivgs]

21 hours ago, Aaron65 said:

I'll take that Tom...I'll PM you later in the day...thanks!

Hi Aaron,

  In reading through this thread I see other individuals are offering you various options. The $$ I quoted you for the parts doesn't even cover my time and packing materials as I was basically trying to do you a favor by responding to your desire for an original booster. I have yet to pack the booster/master so you won't hurt my feelings if you change your mind. I can send you a refund back through Paypal.

  I'll put things on hold for now, just let me know

Thanks,

Tom

[Aaron65]

Hi Tom,
I'd still like the booster if you're still willing to part with it.  My plan is to send it out for a rebuild because the one I have obviously isn't going to work.  If I don't buy it from you, I still plan to find a '63 booster somewhere else.  I've found that I have the best luck when I try to keep things more or less as the factory designed them...that's my preference anyway.  The '64 brake pedal should still work with a '63 booster if I'm reading into all this correctly. 

Aaron

[1965rivgs]

1 hour ago, Aaron65 said:

Hi Tom,
I'd still like the booster if you're still willing to part with it.  My plan is to send it out for a rebuild because the one I have obviously isn't going to work.  If I don't buy it from you, I still plan to find a '63 booster somewhere else.  I've found that I have the best luck when I try to keep things more or less as the factory designed them...that's my preference anyway.  The '64 brake pedal should still work with a '63 booster if I'm reading into all this correctly. 

Aaron

  I should have probably added to my previous post that of course I would follow through with our plans if that is the course you wish to pursue. I didnt intend to imply otherwise. I`ll bullet proof pack the booster up today.

  Just a note...I also have all the other parts discussed if you modify or add upon your plans.

Thanks,

Tom

 

[telriv]

Aaron,

 

Sounds to me since you are buying stuff from Tom M. already maybe he should just supply everything you need instead of dealing with various others.

Again, just my thoughts.

Let me know.

 

Tom T.

[Aaron65]

1 hour ago, telriv said:

Aaron,

 

Sounds to me since you are buying stuff from Tom M. already maybe he should just supply everything you need instead of dealing with various others.

Again, just my thoughts.

Let me know.

 

Tom T.

That sounds good, Tom...thank you for your help.

[Jim Cannon]

7 hours ago, Riviera63 said:

 

Jim,

 

Do you know if a brake pedal and bracket from a 65 will work? If it does, I have a pedal, bracket and switch from a 65. If anyone is interested, PM me. Thanks.

 

Bill

It should.

 

 

[TexRiv_63]

15 hours ago, Jim Cannon said:

For the benefit of the new '63 Riviera owners, let me advise/remind you that a special o-ring with a square cross section must be installed on the neck of whatever master cylinder you use with a stock '63 brake booster.  Later boosters do not need it, but GM kept the groove in the neck of the later master cylinders.

 

Without the o-ring, you have a massive vacuum leak and no boost.

 

If you have Booster Dewey rebuild your booster, he can supply the special o-ring.

 

 

Very good point, I learned this the hard way on my 63. The same type of O-ring setup was on my 63 Olds Starfire.

[Riviera63]

2 hours ago, Jim Cannon said:

It should.

 

 

Thanks Jim.

[XframeFX]

17 hours ago, Chasander said:

If you use silicone brake fluid the hydraulic brake switch will fail after a while.

I can attest to that. But before I knew, a slip fell out of the box of a new Standard Automotive Switch stating "not recommended for silicone" and probably why the original switch failed (compounded by turn signal switch not centering perfectly). So, I purchased a Ron Francis Wiring switch which is supposed to be DOT 5 compatible. I used this switch even though I purged my brakes with all new parts again, this time all Made-In-China. Never again silicone fluid!

On 11/7/2022 at 9:45 PM, Jim Cannon said:

picture reminds me that I have seen some original cars with the booster yellow cad plated and others with it painted satin black.

I don't think they were ever painted but I do not recall plating that yellow! When choosing a rebuilder, ask about plating. I was quoted a lofty price to re-do mine and assumed plating was included at that price. I proceeded considering myself lucky finding a rebuilder within Canada although 3000 miles away. I later discovered there are many shops that can rebuild power brake boosters closer to home. After all this, I still have the old check valve and is probably the reason the system still does not hold vacuum for more than 15 seconds. Oh well, a good feeling all that crude in the power booster is gone.

When asked why black paint? Rebuilder says his standard is paint and plating was another $350 but never offered up front!

[Jim Cannon]

Honestly, if I had it to do again, I would paint the brake booster satin black.  When I did mine 10 years ago, I thought it was supposed to be yellow cad plated.  Now I'm not so sure.  All of the original, unmolested cars that I see have it painted black.

[Aaron65]

Does anyone have the part number for the square-cut o-ring (or a place I could buy something similar locally) for the master cylinder on a '63?  Until I get the correct booster, I want to see if I can get my current booster boosting.  Thanks!

[XframeFX]

15 minutes ago, Aaron65 said:

Does anyone have the part number for the square-cut o-ring

It pretty specific, Clutch & Brake places. Booster Dewey has them. However, that incorrect booster (Moraine?) may have a boot behind the master cyl.

 

On 11/6/2022 at 5:31 PM, Aaron65 said:

The previous owner at some point not too long ago replaced most of the brake system, including the booster.

Interesting on how the installation of an incorrect booster retained the accumulator when Don (TexRiv_63) has it removed with a plug on the Tee fitting.

[Jim Cannon]

15 minutes ago, Aaron65 said:

Does anyone have the part number for the square-cut o-ring (or a place I could buy something similar locally) for the master cylinder on a '63?  Until I get the correct booster, I want to see if I can get my current booster boosting.  Thanks!

This is not the problem with your current booster.  It is specifically a 1963 booster design issue that was later eliminated.

 

Later boosters do not need the o-ring.

 

 

[TexRiv_63]

1 hour ago, XframeFX said:

 

Interesting on how the installation of an incorrect booster retained the accumulator when Don (TexRiv_63) has it removed with a plug on the Tee fitting.

If you are referring to the vacuum storage tank on the inner fender I removed mine to add wiring for my Vintage Air conversion. If I was doing it today I would leave the tank there.

[Jim Cannon]

1 hour ago, TexRiv_63 said:

If you are referring to the vacuum storage tank on the inner fender I removed mine to add wiring for my Vintage Air conversion. If I was doing it today I would leave the tank there.

Vacuum storage had to be done on the '63 Riv power brake booster external to the booster, because of the way it's designed. That's why there is a big vacuum storage tank on the inner fender, to give you one or two brake applications after the engine stalled.  In 1964 and later, they figured out how to store vacuum inside the booster housing itself.

 

So if you put on a '67 booster with a '67 dual master cylinder, no storage can is needed. You can use it or you can leave it off.

 

BTW, I have one of these large '63 vacuum storage cans here from a parts car. If anyone needs one, let me know. You pay the shipping and it's yours.

[Electra63]

Hello folks.

It seems I'm always a bit late to the party !  Hopefully someone is still watching this thread.

I'm looking for advice as I'm wondering if my booster is leaking or needs rebuilding & I'm hoping someone can give me advice.

I have a 63 Electra which I acquired 6 months ago and I think has the same brake system as the Riviera?  The photos look very similar.

The car stops fine and I believe I'm getting the boost I need (though I don't have a reference to compare to - only my decades of driving experience.)

My symptoms relate to the brake lights coming on when the pedal is not depressed.  I changed out the hydraulic switch a couple of months ago thinking it was faulty but I noticed today after a 20-30 minute drive that the brake lights were acting the same.  Here is what happens:

If I press the brake and release it, the lights go out but after about 30-60 seconds they come on again even though the pedal hasn't been touched.  This happens on a depressingly reliable basis.

Does this indicate a vacuum leak in the system (if so, where should I look?)

My main concern is I'm worried that this could indicate a failing booster?  My vehicle is pretty much original and the booster and master cylinder look original but seem to be OK.

Also, I saw a reference in the discussion to the turn signal switch.  Mine is a bit sticky on the right turn.  I have to jiggle it to get it to operate.  I don't know if this is relevant or not?  how does that relate to the brake circuit?

 

Can anyone offer some steps/hints to troubleshoot this issue?

 

thank you

 

Mark

[Jim Cannon]

Hi, Mark!

 

You need to troubleshoot a bit more.

 

With the engine running and the brakes lights stuck on (in your driveway so that you can open the hood and mess with stuff) disconnect the wires from the brake light switch on the Master Cylinder and see if the lights go out.  If they do, then the problem is there, with the brakes.  If they stay on, the problem is somewhere else (like the turn signal switch).

 

Does your car have a tilt steering column? Those are the turn signal switches that are notorious for malfunctioning.

 

There is a valve inside the brake booster that controls the use of vacuum to help you apply the brakes.  If that valve is sticking on, you are going to get vacuum assist when you are not stepping on the pedal.  It will be like driving with your left foot resting on the brake pedal all the time. This is going to wear out your brakes and kill your gas mileage. 

 

You can get the booster rebuilt, if needed. You can ask he rebuilder to leave the original patina that you have on he booster untouched, if you'd like to keep the original look of the engine compartment.