1921 Oldsmobile Model 46 - I ask myself, Why?

[edinmass]

All that time, work, and investment and you’re gonna glue a hole in the block closed? 
 

Neat car and great project. Now isn’t the time to take a shortcut………..especially on the block. Just my two cents. To each their own.

Edited December 23, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Mike "Hubbie" Stearns]

I’ll agree with edinmass. I would lock stitch it. Mike

[Stude Light]

11 hours ago, edinmass said:

All that time, work, and investment and you’re gonna glue a hole in the block closed? 
 

Neat car and great project. Now isn’t the time to take a shortcut………..especially on the block. Just my two cents. To each their own.

Life is always about balancing choices and, in my engineering past, I had to make plenty of choices that weren't always perfect. I try to balance cost, risk and reward. This block is pretty lightweight with a lot of areas that I would like to see a bit "beefier" but this is the design I have to work with. That entire flat area around the hole is just over a square inch so there isn't much to work with. The cylinder wall you see is not a water jacket, just the outside wall of the cylinder. Heck, it could have been finned to help with cooling.

 

With the block machining completed there is no way I am applying any heat to the area. I don't see this being under any stress. All this does is hold unpressurized coolant from leaking on the ground so I drilled the hole round and partially tapped it to 5/16"-24. I cut off a bolt and threaded in the hole snug (it is only like a thread and a half). I used JB Weld as my sealant and decided to do about 1/4" of JB Weld overlay in the area as a backup to increase the casting thickness in the area and prevent any weeping just in case there is a micro hole somewhere I can't see. So yes, there is some "glue" on the block now. I just think of it as body filler but stronger 😁

Next, I'll clean up the block and put the casting plugs in and paint it up. Then I have to separate the two halves and install the crankshaft and camshaft before I can assemble anything else.

[JV Puleo]

I'd be very concerned that the area around the hole was extremely thin. Blocks were usually cast with a wall thickness of at least 1/8" but it was nearly impossible to prevent the sand cores from slipping 100% of the time and equally impossible to tell from the outside that it had happened. Last week I saw a 1924 Buick block that suffered from that. the casting itself appeared to be very good but one corner, in effectively the same place as your hole, was so thin that I was told "you could cut the iron away with a nail clipper." The only permanent solution was to cut out a much larger area and patch it. If you got 1-1/2 threads on a 5/16-24 piece, that is a thickness of only about .065...half of what was probably optimal.

[edinmass]

I understand the thought process of it. As well as risk vs return. I have seen such repairs literally last thirty years on a P1 Rolls, and I have seen them fail in a day. Thermo cycling of that piece is the major concern, as well as the impossibility of getting it clean and rust free. I would have used heat to 400 degrees for a few hours to burn off contamination. I probably would have silver soldered some similar material. To me the bigger problem is the risk of failure on a tour. I absolutely hate braking down…….so just the thought of that repair would ruin my enjoyment of the car. Time will tell. Many of us here playing with similar toys don’t have to worry beyond a definitive number of years before it will be the next owners problem to worry/deal with. I hope it holds for you. All my best, and thanks for the thoughts reply without taking offense. That is truly as rare today as you car. Merry Christmas! Ed.

[Stude Light]

I do appreciate your feedback guys...I know it's a lot of experience talking. This is one of those "you would need to see it" vs photos and a description. I should have taken a picture when I drilled it. I had to do it at a slight angle and couldn't hit the thin spot square in the center. You could actually see the small thin area from inside the casting looking through the casting plug in the back of the block. I didn't actually count threads when I drilled/tapped....I would say maybe 1/8" on one side and 3/16 - 1/4" on the other when done. I'm usually pretty retentive about feeling good about a repair and, like Ed, hate unnecessarily worrying about something I know is wrong while touring. Truthfully, this one won't even be on my radar when driving. I'll be worrying about failing the radiator or the axle or a wood spoked wheel breaking or the crankshaft snapping in half since it only has two main bearings. BTW, the block did get thermally cleaned at 500 degrees so I know the JB Weld is stuck and isn't going anywhere. You'll have to trust my judgment as I'm not looking back on this one.

 

I got all the casting plugs back in and I used the Indian Head Shellac. I thought "Why change to something else now as I've never had this stuff leak".

Do you think you could get the two center piston bores a bit closer together? I felt bad by taking another 0.020" out of the standard 2-7/8" bores.

I got it all cleaned up for paint while on the stand but unfortunately, I had to take it off the stand and disassemble it in order to install the camshaft, crankshaft, cam gear oiler and seal the two halves together before putting it back together and going forward. At least it's nice and clean now.

It is a lot easier working on the engine stand but this part you either do on the workbench or on the floor.

 

And in other news.....it's just snowed about 7", is 7 deg F out with 27mph winds (might be a good day for craps). There is nothing else to do but go work in the shop. I will say that I feel very blessed to have a nice heated shop as I know a lot of people are not that fortunate. I did help a friend last week by putting on new wheel cylinders, brakes, jounce hoses and a master cylinder on his 1953 MG and that just left on Wednesday, so timing worked out.

 

 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Stude Light (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Wow, two mains……….not a good idea. Talk about crankshaft whip and deflection! I would address the pits on the deck surface. Looks like a gasket failure waiting to happen. You can use the same method of repair. Kind of interesting that they went to all the efforts of a V-8 and used the design they chose…………..doesn’t seem logical, as a big six would have been a better much better choice. Guess I need to research the platform. Stay warm……….it’s almost down to the low 70’s here now. 😎

[Stude Light]

10 hours ago, edinmass said:

Wow, two mains……….not a good idea. Talk about crankshaft whip and deflection!

You consider this was the line up of Northway V8s in the mid-teens:

Oakland 365 cu in

Cole 346 cu in

Cadillac 314 cu in

Oldsmobile 246 cu in

 

I may be mistaken but I think the Olds engine was the only one with two main bearings. Maybe the Cadillac guys, who did not have a detachable head at first, figured that Olds was getting ahead of them and said they only get two main bearings 🙂. This engine was produced from 1916 - 1922 so it must have been somewhat durable to last 6 years in an age of constant invention and improvement. What is even more astounding is that when Olds decided to take this basic Northway design and make their own aluminum block V8 design for the 1921-1922 Model 47, they stayed with 2 main bearings. It has convention bearing caps that go up from the bottom, but they are aluminum too. The crank and pistons look interchangeable between the two engines.

 

10 hours ago, edinmass said:

I would address the pits on the deck surface. Looks like a gasket failure waiting to happen.

I did this on the heads before I had them surfaced and was going to do the same on the block, but you are right, I should do that now before installing the crank and getting a bunch of dust in the block. Thanks for the reminder.

As Ed pointed out, there is pitting around the water ports. While most all of this is inside the sealing surface and not directly on the sealing surface, it goes up to the edge of the seal and can undermine the seal over time so it's best to make it flat right to the edge. I've done this many times just using JB Weld. Clean up the surface well and make sure no oil, apply the epoxy, mill/file/block sand to make it flat. I also found this important to do on coolant line fittings that are all pitted up so the hose has a chance to seal without over constraining the clamp and rubber which leads to premature failure of the rubber hoses.

 

Another interesting fact....the NOS Victor gasket in the background is typical and has two copper sheets with, what I assume is, asbestos between them. You will notice that there is a copper gasket ring that connects the top and bottom copper sheets around the combustion chambers and all the water ports but not the bolt holes since there is nothing to seal coming from the bolts. This is to prevent micro leakage through the asbestos. Interestingly, on the Olds Model 47 aluminum block V8 engine, those Victor gaskets only have this sealing ring on the combustion chambers and not around the water ports so you get a little seepage out of those head gaskets. Why? Maybe cost?

The gasket is nice and shiny on the other side so I'll take a little 0000 steel wool and clean the corrosion off this side of the gasket before installing. Hopefully we'll get to that part sometime later in this post.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Stude Light (see edit history)

[edinmass]

It’s interesting that the 1915 Cadillac V-8 is what took the company from a mid priced car into the “luxury high priced line”. Yet Oldsmobile goes the same way, but with a less expensive design. I’m guessing the displacement was also smaller for the Olds. What are you running for pistons and rings? It’s been thirty years since I had a early V-8 apart, and seem to remember some of them had the four ring set up with the oil control ring below the pin. Any photos of the rods?

 

 

Im half blind on the phone, just saw the Olds displacement.

Edited December 24, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Stude Light]

2 hours ago, edinmass said:

What are you running for pistons and rings?

Well, it depends on which piston we are talking about....

I took apart two engines and it looks like the three ring 3/16" ring thickness design was original. I found a couple of issues (one piston had a small crack and the other had a little chip out of it) but the engine was still running okay. If you look up at the start of the post you can see the oil it was running.

I went with new Egge pistons with 5/64" compression rings. The hard part was finding 0.020" over rings for a 2-7/8" bore which is how I chose the bore size and piston design - Dave Reed from Otto Gas Engine Works found those for me.

Fork and Blade rod design (photo is of spare engine that was loosely assembled). The fork rod clamps two bronze backed, babbitted ID bearing shells that ride on the crank journal and are pinned to the rod. The blade rod is steel running on the bronze backing of the bearing shell...it only rotates about 30 degrees.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Stude Light (see edit history)

[edinmass]

I’m guessing the one piston with the ring below the pin is original. That connecting rod set up is the same set up that was used on Rolls-Royce Phantom Three V-12 and some Minerva’s. They can be tricky to get set up correctly. I would punched out on the loose side. The modern ring package that you’re using has a tendency to drag heavily. I can take a long time to break in. And they tend to scuff if they’re tight. 

Edited December 24, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Stude Light]

While cleaning up the pitting around the coolant ports, I figured it was a good time to lap all the valves. I started with new valves and freshly ground original seats. Put a little oil on the stem and lapping compound on the face. Remember, the lapping compound is like liquid sandpaper so try to keep it just where you need it to keep from contaminating your engine.

Next, just use a lapping tool (wood stick with suction cups on each end) and rotate it back and forth in your hand - like watching someone make fire with a wood stick. You don't need to push hard...just a few pounds of pressure. You will hear the sound of heavy grinding but as you continue the grit breaks into finer particles until you can hardly hear it. You have to keep the valve seated during this process. If you lift it at all, it pulls fresh grit in. After you get the noise so you hardly hear it, go ahead and lift up the valve pulling in fresh grit and rotate it maybe 90 degrees and repeat the process. Do this 3 or 4 times and you'll have a nicely seated valve.

You will see a nice line around the valve. Ideally, it will be in the middle of the face but so long as you have a small margin before the edge, it'll be fine.

And the seat

An important step is next....CLEAN every bit of grit off the valve and seat and anywhere else. And another important step...mark where the valve goes. You just matched the valve to the seat so you need to put them in the same spot when reassembling them later.

All the valves are done

And, using a flat block of wood, I sanded all the JB Weld that was used to fill the pits around the coolant ports, then thoroughly cleaned the block to ensure no dirt, grit or dust remained. Now I'm getting close to putting in the crank.

Edited December 28, 2022 by Stude Light (see edit history)

[Stude Light]

Camshaft is installed with assembly lube only on the main journals for now. The next step is to measure the main bearing clearances and I decided to just use plastigage. I'm using original bearing shells and crank journals. The crank journals measures pretty flat along the length (other than the oil groove) and round within 0.0005" but they have just under 0.001" diametrical wear on each side of the oil groove. Because of this I pulled a 0.001" shim on the main bearing caps. I installed the block side bearing shells and installed the crankshaft, all dry.

I cut a piece of plastigage, laid it across the bearing journals, installed the caps and torqued the caps down to specifications (i.e. "tight").

It measures out at 0.003" clearance. The book on the car only lists clearances for the rod bearings and suggests the mains should not drag nor be loose enough to to allow the crankshaft to clunk up and down. The main journals are about 2" in diameter. Considering the width of these journals, 0.003" clearances is probably fine but I'll play around with the shims to shoot closer to 0.002"

[edinmass]

I would be shooting for 2.5 myself. Wondering if with just two mains it should be on the loose side from whip and deflection? 2.0 sounds a bit tight………just thinking out loud.

 

The deck looks much better with the pits filled in.

 

 

Edited January 2, 2023 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Stude Light]

43 minutes ago, edinmass said:

 

I would be shooting for 2.5 myself.

 

That’s where I was thinking would be a sweet spot 

[BobinVirginia]

Just putting it out there. Belzona Super Metal is a far superior product to JB Weld. Might look into it for minor block salvage and fuel system repairs. It’s machinable as well. Works excellently on water passages. When used on top of metal stitch repairs the success rate is outstanding when a cold repair is needed. 

Edited January 2, 2023 by BobinVirginia (see edit history)

[BobinVirginia]

@Stude Light

 

Glad you’re putting the work in to save an unusual engine. A daunting project for most. I’m hoping no matter your method, it lives on and you enjoy it! 

[jensenracing77]

Very nice! My wife would love for me to find a car like this. 

[Stude Light]

I fiddled with the shims and switched over to the red plastigage to get a little better fidelity in the 0.002-0.004" range, although plastigage is only so accurate🤪. Not feeling like trying to cut out new shims for a few tenths, I laid some 220 sandpaper out on flat surface and just ran the caps over it, which cleaned up some of the machining marks. As best I can tell with plastigage, I'm just under 0.003" on the main bearing clearances. The only accurate way to tell the exact clearance is to use a micrometer and a bore gauge. I'll check the rod shells and journals with a bore gauge (which I need to borrow) but the plastigage is getting me close enough for the mains. I'm getting into splitting hairs and not going to sweat a couple of extra tenths.

 

I already had the cam installed. Speaking of the cam, those are the only bearings that do not have pressure fed lubrication and rely on these little cups on the top side of the bearing caps that catch flinging oil and drain it onto the cam bearings. These bearings are like three inches long.

Next, I applied a liberal amount of assembly lube to both bearing shells, journals and thrust surfaces, then set the crank in place.

I use the Permatex Assembly Lube for all the bearings and use the GM assembly lube for most everything else, like pistons/rings.

I then torqued all the cap nuts/bolts. I hear a lot of people claim that the fasteners in the early cars were all like todays Grade 2 but based on my experience they were better than a Grade 2. Heck, some were extremely high grade fasteners, similar to a Grade 8 or 9. The studs nuts and bolts in this engine I would guess to be similar to today's Grade 5 fasteners. So, for 7/16-20 I was targeting 45 ft lbs with some wiggle room to torque a little higher to line up the cotter pins.

If you forget that little oiling tube and assemble the halves you'll be taking it apart again. First, was the brass fitting into the block which I applied some PTFE thread sealant on and made sure to wipe any excess before assembling. And please, NEVER, EVER use teflon tape anywhere on a car. That stuff is fine for your household plumbing but those little strands that always occur can really screw things up in an automobile system. Please stick with a liquid or paste thread sealant of your choice.

All cam/crank bearing bolts tight, cotter pins installed, lock tabs peened over on the bolt heads and the gear oiler installed. Hmmm....I hope I'm not forgetting something. I applied a thin film of Permatex "The Right Stuff" on the gasket surfaces then put the two halves together. That sealant has a fairly quick set up time so you can't dilly-dally. There is a dowel pin on the front top of the two halves and a tolerance bolt that acts as another dowel pin on the rear of the top. Then there are three bolted fasteners that go along the entire top of the split.

After that there are 4 through bolts with the ends threaded and nuts, washers and copper crush washers to hold the lower half of the two cases together. I applied some of The Right Stuff around the copper crush washers just to help discourage any oil leaks.

As you can see, it's back on the engine stand. I think I'll paint the block next before the rest of the assembly which will end up getting oil on everything.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 3, 2023 by Stude Light (see edit history)

[hidden_hunter]

On 12/25/2022 at 5:27 AM, edinmass said:

I’m guessing the one piston with the ring below the pin is original.

Not sure, Cadillac didn’t do that and given how similar the rest of the setup is for the pistons and conrods I would be surprised  - my car has its original piston and had its original rings (they match the pictures in the shop manual)

 

All of the bolts and castle nuts on the conrods will be numbered as well if they’re original 

[edinmass]

Almost 40 years ago I did an early Caddy V-8 and they all had the oil control ring below the wrist pin……..don’t remember what year the car was. Lots of things happen over 100 years to an engine……..👍

[TexRiv_63]

Thanks for the detailed description and great photos of this engine, a design I have never seen before.

[hidden_hunter]

Original ring and piston from the 22 cad for comparison 

 

The oil control ring is much more similar to modern one 

[bradsan]

Teflon tape is fine for household plumbing....... unless you have a hydronic system with pumps. In which case, just like engines, it is not!

Brand new system installed by others , failed in the middle of Xmas holidays ( that's when they are designed to fail...right!) . Cause of failure? PTFE tape from upstream threaded joints was wrapped around the pump vane shaft. Keep PTFE tape away from any mechanical system. I hardly use the tape anymore and just grab the sealant instead; it seems to work better as well!
 

[Mike "Hubbie" Stearns]

1 hour ago, bradsan said:

Teflon tape is fine for household plumbing....... unless you have a hydronic system with pumps. In which case, just like engines, it is not!

Brand new system installed by others , failed in the middle of Xmas holidays ( that's when they are designed to fail...right!) . Cause of failure? PTFE tape from upstream threaded joints was wrapped around the pump vane shaft. Keep PTFE tape away from any mechanical system. I hardly use the tape anymore and just grab the sealant instead; it seems to work better as well!
 

I’m a plumber by trade. I’ve seen this before and it is caused be installer error. 99% of the person who put the tape on either too thick, over lap the end of the fitting/pipe or both. I’m a foremen and always teach the younger ones the proper way to install tape and dope. Tape and dope is our company policy. The tape does the sealing and the dope is more of a lubricant which enable you to get the fittings/ pipes tighter. Mike

[edinmass]

Its my experience that there are lots of dopes using too much tape.

[JV Puleo]

On 1/1/2023 at 7:30 PM, BobinVirginia said:

Just putting it out there. Belzona Super Metal is a far superior product to JB Weld. Might look into it for minor block salvage and fuel system repairs. It’s machinable as well. Works excellently on water passages. When used on top of metal stitch repairs the success rate is outstanding when a cold repair is needed. 

Out of curiosity, how does Belzona compare to Devcon plastic steel?

[hidden_hunter]

1 hour ago, JV Puleo said:

Out of curiosity, how does Belzona compare to Devcon plastic steel?

we used it to patch up a Buick water pump cover and it’s working well after 5+ years 

[95Cardinal]

This is a great thread, Scott.

But I gotta admit, it scares me to think of digging into my Cadillac!

 

Glad to hear you had a good experience with Hart Machine. I haven't had any work done but them, but they've done 2 or 3 jobs for a friend of mine and he has also been very happy with their work.

Joe

[Stude Light]

I did verify that this is an original piston 

The pistons, rods and each half of the block are stamped with matching serial numbers. The top of the piston is stamped 3034

In the Owners Manual and my 1918 Illustrated Parts Manual they both show the four ring design. I assume they started with 4 and dropped to 3 rings later in production. The engine and many illustrations in the Owners Manual date back to 1916.

Edited January 15, 2023 by Stude Light (see edit history)

[Stude Light]

C

16 hours ago, hidden_hunter said:

 

All of the bolts and castle nuts on the conrods will be numbered as well if they’re original 

My rods only have the caps stamped for cylinder number/location along with a stamp on the insert bearing. No stamps on the bolts or nuts.

Edited January 4, 2023 by Stude Light (see edit history)

[Stude Light]

All taped up and got the prime coat on.

[hidden_hunter]

1 hour ago, Stude Light said:

My rods only have the caps stamped for cylinder number/location along with a stamp on the insert bearing. No stamps on the bolts or nuts.

The conrods look nearly identical, basically the originals are a shallow D with a flat that is the same height as the cutout on the rod. The castle nuts are quite a bit taller (the top part is nearly half the height of the nut)

 

it’s possible that it was a later change or Cadillac specific but given how similar the rest of it is I would assume they were originally the same - not that it changes anything just some useless trivia 

[edinmass]

Interesting the new pistons didn't incorporate modern ring packages. You could have probably picked up a few extra horsepower and better oil control. When ordering a set of new pistons I always order two extra sets of rings.....for the one in a hundred times you may need them, been there, done that. 

[hidden_hunter]

9 hours ago, edinmass said:

Interesting the new pistons didn't incorporate modern ring packages. You could have probably picked up a few extra horsepower and better oil control. When ordering a set of new pistons I always order two extra sets of rings.....for the one in a hundred times you may need them, been there, done that. 

They look like they’re aluminium so with the material change you’d think they would incorporate some improvements like that but I guess this way they can’t be wrong 

[nickelroadster]

This sure looks like fun but I am glad that I don't have to rebuild my 23 model of the same engine.  As far as I can tell mine is pretty much original.  At the time it was advertised as having the highest horsepower per cubic inch of any production engine at the time.

[Stude Light]

3 hours ago, hidden_hunter said:

They look like they’re aluminium so with the material change you’d think they would incorporate some improvements like that but I guess this way they can’t be wrong 

The original pistons are cast iron. They did have some provisions for oil control with the holes under the 3rd ring. That ring would scrape most oil off the cylinder walls on the downward stroke and hopefully into the holes. The 4 ring designs I believe were used to hold more oil on the skirt but after some time it was found that was actually not necessary and the extra ring just added drag.
 

The cylinder walls are constantly splashed with oil. The modern oil control ring does two things. On the upward stroke it ensures an even coating on the cylinder walls which keeps the skirt well lubricated. On the downward stroke it scrapes most of the oil off the cylinder walls….kind of like a plow….and that oil goes through the holes in the piston and back in the sump. The second ring has two functions also. It’s primary function is to scrape what oil the oil control ring missed so there is almost no oil left on the cylinder walls that would get burned in the combustion process. It’s secondary function is to act as another compression ring. Often it is called an oil scraper ring. The top ring is primarily a compression ring but also does a small amount of oil scraping on the downward stroke.

 

The new pistons I’m installing are aluminum and have a more “modern” (40s - 70s) ring package. They are also mode of 4032 high silicon aluminum so have really good dimensional control across the temperature range.

 

I got the topcoat on the engine now and just waiting for it to harden up some.

[Stude Light]

35 minutes ago, nickelroadster said:

This sure looks like fun but I am glad that I don't have to rebuild my 23 model of the same engine.  As far as I can tell mine is pretty much original.  At the time it was advertised as having the highest horsepower per cubic inch of any production engine at the time.

What 1923 car/model/engine do you have?

[nickelroadster]

I have the same model 47 that you have.  What carb does yours have?  Mine is a Johnson but seems to work better than the Johnsons that are on Caddilacs.

[nickelroadster]

I am sorry.  I thought you had a model 47 also.  I do have a 1916 model 44 that has pretty much the same engine that yours is also.