Found this photo in Grandpa's photo album

[CameramanX]

[West Peterson]

Circa 1917 Buick, I believe.

[Oldtech]

39 minutes ago, West Peterson said:

Circa 1917 Buick, I believe.

Don't think so. Hood length means a 6 and wheel / axle bolts are wrong.  Don't know what it is tho. 

[Terry Bond]

It has a custom speedster body so might expect the wheels to be from something else. I'd focus on the items less likely to have been changed.  I'm inclined to agree with West on it being mostly Buick. We may never know for sure tho.

Terry

[dustycrusty]

3 minutes ago, Terry Bond said:

It has a custom speedster body so might expect the wheels to be from something else. I'd focus on the items less likely to have been changed.  I'm inclined to agree with West on it being mostly Buick. We may never know for sure tho.

Terry

And, its got portholes!

[CameramanX]

Thanks for the information guys. On a closer look the "portholes" are 3 to vent the engine bay and 1 reversed to cool the cabin?

Also it seem to have a large fuel tank behind the seats and a large steamer trunk behind that. maybe it is set up for a distance compitation. 

[DLynskey]

I've seen some portholes like that on this from not long ago. Don't recall what they were on.

 

Don

[West Peterson]

The portholes are not an identifying feature on this car. I believe only the wheels, fenders and maybe the cowl are all that will give any clues as to what it is.

[DLynskey]

Here's the other one.

 

 

Edited February 17, 2022 by DLynskey (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

Good chance that the body builder tag is Holbrook.

My next guess is same vintage, maybe slightly earlier, Willys-Overland Knight, with a body designed by C.T. Silvers, and built by Holbrook.

 

[keiser31]

3 hours ago, DLynskey said:

I've seen some portholes like that on this from not long ago. Don't recall what they were on.

 

Don

Chadwick had the portholes.

[wayne sheldon]

The Chadwick's "portholes"  are actually exhaust ports. They used a diverter valve to run the exhaust down and through a muffler for relatively quiet driving. Or, the valves could be opened and the flaming exhaust would exit out the side of the hood!

The OP car probably used those unusual vents in place of hood louvers like most cars were using by then.

 

Whatever it is? I like it and would love to have something like that today!

[CameramanX]

Thank you all for your replies! 

[Dandy Dave]

Maybe a Cole? 

[Oldtech]

I think it is a Crane-Simplex with a few mods. 

[West Peterson]

I'm not seeing any resemblance to Simplex-Crane whatsoever.

 

[Gunsmoke]

hmmm... I posted 3 posts on his thread yesterday showing these pictures of the Crane Simplex's I felt these cars were, and all seem to have disappeared. Moderators, what is going on please?

[Oldtech]

 

Was thinking closer to this. 

[Gunsmoke]

Yes Oldtech, I posted the beige C/S above to show the unique "integrated" cowl light that appears on one of the 2 OP's, and the second one to show C/S's used cowl side portholes in some instances. As you may realize C/S body builders used a wide range of bodies.

[Jolly_John]

Sure wish we could read the logo on the hubcaps in the first photo. John

[Oldtech]

2 hours ago, Gunsmoke said:

Yes Oldtech, I posted the beige C/S above to show the unique "integrated" cowl light that appears on one of the 2 OP's, and the second one to show C/S's used cowl side portholes in some instances. As you may realize C/S body builders used a wide range of bodies.

I am going more by the wheel / axel type and general build. The first pic has no cowl lghts, the second is a different car. I wouldn't put any money on my guess tho. 

[nzcarnerd]

10 hours ago, Oldtech said:

I am going more by the wheel / axel type and general build. The first pic has no cowl lghts, the second is a different car. I wouldn't put any money on my guess tho. 

The mystery roadster is not Buick-based I think because Buicks of that era have only eight hub bolts and the mystery car has 12.

[CameramanX]

Hi guys, Thanks again for all the input. I am a guy who likes cars but am no expert like you all. I took the conversations from you guys and went down the rabbit hole this fine Sunday morning. 

First, I did all I could to CSI the photo of the wheel hub to try and retrieve a logo. Not much joy. I imagined I saw the word Cole as was suggested as a possible manufacture.

 Then I did a search for a Cole to compare and found LaFayette Motors. Again I'm no expert but the wheels and hubs certainly match. I also think many of the design elements match but many of the cars of the same ventage have a similar look.

What do you all think?

[West Peterson]

On 2/19/2022 at 9:18 AM, Gunsmoke said:

hmmm... I posted 3 posts on his thread yesterday showing these pictures of the Crane Simplex's I felt these cars were, and all seem to have disappeared. Moderators, what is going on please?

 

 

I deleted them as the cars have nothing in common with the car in OP, and in my opinion just brought confusion to the post.

[West Peterson]

On 2/20/2022 at 11:01 AM, CameramanX said:

Hi guys, Thanks again for all the input. I am a guy who likes cars but am no expert like you all. I took the conversations from you guys and went down the rabbit hole this fine Sunday morning. 

First, I did all I could to CSI the photo of the wheel hub to try and retrieve a logo. Not much joy. I imagined I saw the word Cole as was suggested as a possible manufacture.

 Then I did a search for a Cole to compare and found LaFayette Motors. Again I'm no expert but the wheels and hubs certainly match. I also think many of the design elements match but many of the cars of the same ventage have a similar look.

What do you all think?

 

The first Lafayettes didn't come out until around 1920, and the roadster in your OP appears to be a few years earlier than that based on the fenders and headlights.

 

 

[Gunsmoke]

Thanks for the explanation WP. As you know from the 2 photos (black and white) both cars seem to have the same forward body (at least same cowl and hood/rad shell with the 4 identical portholes), and also have the same body tag at bottom corner of cowl. The unique cowl light on second car (the Skiff) suggested to me at least the body builder was same one who the did body/cowl on the cream colored C/S shown. Perhaps you recognize it as a Holbrook signature? (I've only ever seen it on the C/S) . As for what the chassis' are, I'm no where closer,  fact one has wood spoked wheels (with the 12 bolt hub) and other has wires makes the puzzle more challenging. I also note the hood latch is not in same place for both cars, suggesting the 2 chassis might be from different makes. Both cars are such wonderful creations, I'm surprised someone has not pinned them down. By extrapolation, it appears wheel bases are about same, 125"-130".

Edited February 21, 2022 by Gunsmoke (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

On 2/17/2022 at 5:19 PM, DLynskey said:

Here's the other one.

 

 

 

It has been determined that this car was built upon a Willys-Knight chassis. Newspaper stories of the day have identified both the woman and the car. The car was designed by CT Silvers, but it is my opinion that the body was built by Hollbrook (even though Silvers had his own shop). I think it's also very possible that the car in the OP was designed by Silvers, and probably on a Willys-Knight chassis (or Overland), and also built by Holbrook.

[30sclassics]

I believe this Kissel-looking speedster actually is a Kissel !    C.T. Silver built custom cars on many different chassis - including Kissel in the late teens, and sometimes used "portholes" in the hood and cowl.  (See http://www.coachbuilt.com/bui/s/silver/silver.htm)

He formed an association with the Kissel company, and was responsible for the "Silver Special" and the Gold-Bug speedster design.  Some of the O.P. features that look like Kissel are the curve on the front of the rear fender, the long vertical grease fitting access hole in the splash apron, the large cowl vent, and of course the top mechanism.

[Gunsmoke]

Here is an interesting 1916 "Willys Silver Knight" 6 passenger Roadster with the same portholes, this one has wire wheels. I note the 1916 Willys Knight also came with wood spoked wheels with 12 bolt hubs. Bumper and headlights seem to match as well. So I'm leaning towards WP's conclusion that both cars are likely W/K's.

Edited February 22, 2022 by Gunsmoke (see edit history)

[Gunsmoke]

This article is on internet regarding the above "6 seater Willys Silver Knight runabout, describes it as the only known surviving example of C.T. Silver's coach work?

 

Frederick G. Neece of Pennsdale, Pennsylvania, the owner of the only known surviving example of C.T. Silver’s coachwork, wrote me recently about his 1916 Willys-Knight (aka Silver-Knight) Model 84 roadster:

"The car I have is built on a standard Willys Knight Model 84 chassis, model year 1916. The paperwork I received from the former owner indicates that the car, or chassis?,  was built in August or September of 1915.  The car has a very interesting history, which I'm trying to unravel. 

"The history of my car, in a nutshell, appears to be that it was either designed by, or built for, Blanche Stuart Scott.  She was the first woman to fly an airplane solo, and the only female student of Glenn Curtiss.  She held a variety of "firsts" in aviation.  She was also the second woman to drive across the US, which she did for promotional purposes for the Overland Co in 1910.  I have done a lot of research on her, and believe, and am trying to establish concretely, that she worked for CT Silver.  After graduating from a finishing school she moved to New York, where she worked selling cars.  I'm suspecting that she worked for CT Silver, and that it was through that connection that she was able to make connection with Willys of the Overland Co.  If the car was not in fact built for her, it was built to her specifications for the famous silent movie actress Pearl White.  I have been searching for a photo of Pearl White with my car, but have not had any luck turning one up yet.  I did however, find a photo of Pearl White driving a CT Silver boat tailed touring car.  I have also been successful in turning up a handful of photos of other cars built by Silver.  Apparently his cars were popular with actresses and performers of the period.

"My car is a pretty interesting piece, being a six passenger "runabout" - as I've found that Silver apparently termed the design.  The car is very similar to the photos you see of a white car he built with a group of ladies in it.  That car has drawer-type seats that pull out of the sides of the body, while my car has the earlier "outboard" seats that are doors that open and fold out over the running boards.  The car has no doors, bucket seats, and a rumble seat with folding upper deck lid similar to what Rolls Royce used into the 20's.  Interestingly too, if you compare my car to a Kissell Gold Bug, you can see that everything was already there in my car.  His ideas were formulated, but not yet refined into what would become the Gold Bug.  According to the Willys WOKR club, and the AACA, this is the only known surviving example of CT Silver's work.  That's why I thought you might be interested to know of the car.  I would be glad to send any pics of the car that might be of interest to you.  I believe the car will also be on display at the Curtiss Museum this year when the celebrate the 100th anniversary of Blanche Scott's historic flight."