American Locomotive Company (ALCO) cars, how many survivors?

[Graham Man]

Here is the book in it's entirety... watch the page numbers

 

https://www.vanderbiltcupraces.com/images/uploads/Harry_Grants_Own_Story-Color_small.pdf

 

Edited February 17, 2022 by Graham Man (see edit history)

[George K]

Joel Finn bought the Alco stuff from a collector named Joe Loecy in Ohio.

Never saw any as found photos. Loecy had several Alco’s and parts according to collectors who knew him and his collection. Finn sent the stuff to Tom Lester to put it together. After it was “ Lesterized” it ended up at Harrahs. I saw it there after Harrahs passing on a buying trip in the parts department. Finn was by a stroke of pure irony was overseeing the dissolution at Harrahs. I liked the car and asked the boys in the shop about it. Finn was not at Harrahs that day. I was told at the time of Harrahs passing he and Finn were involved in litigation about cars. I don’t know if was the Alco or a Maserati. 

Finn had a story in AQ but offered no proof other than a prepared statement from the surviving mechanician in a care facility signed. It knocked around and was auctioned. End up in Belgium with a dealer who cleansed it and christened it Bete Noir.

The car is Alco parts but with an engine over the ci limits to race. It matches a Alco truck ci. I welcome any as found pictures and corroborating proof that the car is a factory race car. Since they literally were tuned stock cars with minimal bodies I find that the problem with the car provenance is the Finn discovery.

[Graham Man]

George guessing that was in the Harrah's time frame 1980's? 

 

The 1909 Vanderbilt races had a 600 CID limit, stock chassis only.

[George K]

1 hour ago, Graham Man said:

George guessing that was in the Harrah's time frame 1980's? 

 

The 1909 Vanderbilt races had a 600 CID limit, stock chassis only.

Yes it was in the 1980’s. I know what the ci rules were.

[George K]

Here is what Riker thought about the changes for 1909.

[wayne sheldon]

Some drift from Alco per se, however, a very interesting read of a period opinion piece about racing in those days. I have always considered A L Riker to be an interesting automotive pioneer. He went from one of the top automotive electrical engineers in the world, to become one of the chief engineers for Locomobile, one of the foremost of all steam cars of their day, to guide them into becoming one of the all-time greatest builders of gasoline automobiles for nearly twenty years!

 

Several years ago, I was attending the funeral of one of my very best friends, at the church he had attended for a number of years. After the services, a bunch of us were hanging around when a young mother and her two grade school age children were walking by. She was pointing the cars out to the kids and said a few things about the history that caught my attention. So I invited the kids to sit in my model T, and told them to play with the levers as I assured "mom" that they couldn't hurt the car (I also explained that this was only to be allowed with permission and in the presence of the car's owner!). Something the mother had said lead me to mentioning A L Riker and the transition through electric and steam to gasoline becoming dominant. All of a sudden the mom says "SEE? Even this man knows your great grandfather!" Turned out her husband was a descendant of A L Riker.

[George K]

My posting that was in response to the previous post regarding the rule change. Locomobile had just won the most important race the previous Vanderbilt after three years of development. Also explains why Old 16 survived as it was relegated to a promotional car shipped to dealerships because of the rule change.

[Graham Man]

My interest in the time period writings about the Vanderbilt race was...

 

1909; 15 car started the race, 2 car completed the 278.8 miles, only 2 other cars were running at the time of completion.  So 4 cars were running after 278.8 miles.  How many modern cars will travel that distance today?

 

It puts into perspective how far we have come building automobiles.

[George K]

I’m sorry I thought this was a serious discussion of period racing.

[StanleyRegister]

Here are some period items relating to the car that Harry Grant raced.  1909 & 1910 Vanderbilt car engine specs, an undated company ad in Cosmopolitan reiterating that Grant used the same stock chassis in both races, and a 1910 picture of the Alco six.  The article accompanying that picture says that the changes in the 6-cylinder engine from 1909 to 1910 were the cam profile and conversion to roller tappets.

[1937hd45]

2 hours ago, George K said:

I’m sorry I thought this was a serious discussion of period racing.

It is, you and your fellow readers car catch up on A. L. Riker winning the first auto race on a track in the USA. The car still runs and was on the lawn at Pebble Beach 2021. http://www.kcstudio.com/riker.html

Bob 

Edited February 18, 2022 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[George K]

3 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

It is, you and your fellow readers car catch up on A. L. Riker winning the first auto race on a track in the USA. The car still runs and was on the lawn at Pebble Beach 2021. http://www.kcstudio.com/riker.html

Bob 

Bob, I don’t believe I need to catch up on any part of this conversation. What is it you would like to discuss? Ready and waiting.

[George K]

Thought this was interesting and serendipitous.

[George K]

So as there are no response to my statement I assume no one has the requested proof or corroborating information. Then for time immemorial my statement stands.

[AHa]

George,

 

assuming your information is correct, and I have no way of knowing, have you heard anything about what happened to the original racer? Did Harry Grant tell of its demise? Is there any chance the car that exists today has some original parts?

 

I, like many others I'm sure, am very grateful Joel Finn was able to put together an authentic representation of the 1909 Alco. It is much better, in my opinion, to experience the car than to look at the picture.

[edinmass]

6 minutes ago, AHa said:

George,

 

assuming your information is correct, and I have no way of knowing, have you heard anything about what happened to the original racer? Did Harry Grant tell of its demise? Is there any chance the car that exists today has some original parts?

 

I, like many others I'm sure, am very grateful Joel Finn was able to put together an authentic representation of the 1909 Alco. It is much better, in my opinion, to experience the car than to look at the picture.

 

I have no knowledge of any history of the racing Loco, but what I can tell you is that 80 percent of all pre 1916 cars have been pick up trucks, hay wagons, tractors, and other assorted repurposed vehicles in their lifetime. No car can be considered correct unless you have photos of it in the 30's or 40's. Even then.....you must look at them with a critical eye. Look close at coachwork.......half the time the back half of the car isn't 1/3 the quality of the front end..........that old Packard or Pierce was hauling sacks of feed and bales of hay after the original owner bought their next car. There are countless cars with "pure reputations" that are assembled floor sweepings. Proof you ask? When you see a huge horsepower brass car sell for over 500K, you can bet every decade is documented with photos and other history. When the same or similar car sells for half or less than the pure car.......you can be sure a story is lurking in the background. I recently purchased an archive from the late 30's that had photos of cars with engine and chassis numbers written on the back...........it's amazing when I type in the serial numbers and see the car in the 90's or 2000's and it went from a limo to a drop head...........and the auction wright up lists it as one of the best known examples with a perfect history...........the actual car I am talking about sold for well over a million dollars at one of the big auctions in the last seven years............and I will see it's current owner at Amelia nest week..........the question is, do I give him the photo? 🤐

 

 

 

 

[George K]

4 minutes ago, edinmass said:

 

I have no knowledge of any history of the racing Loco, but what I can tell you is that 80 percent of all pre 1916 cars have been pick up trucks, hay wagons, tractors, and other assorted repurposed vehicles in their lifetime. No car can be considered correct unless you have photos of it in the 30's or 40's. Even then.....you must look at them with a critical eye. Look close at coachwork.......half the time the back half of the car isn't 1/3 the quality of the front end..........that old Packard or Pierce was hauling sacks of feed and bales of hay after the original owner bought their next car. There are countless cars with "pure reputations" that are assembled floor sweepings. Proof you ask? When you see a huge horsepower brass car sell for over 500K, you can bet every decade is documented with photos and other history. When the same or similar car sells for half or less than the pure car.......you can be sure a story is lurking in the background. I recently purchased an archive from the late 30's that had photos of cars with engine and chassis numbers written on the back...........it's amazing when I type in the serial numbers and see the car in the 90's or 2000's and it went from a limo to a drop head...........and the auction wright up lists it as one of the best known examples with a perfect history...........the actual car I am talking about sold for well over a million dollars at one of the big auctions in the last seven years............and I will see it's current owner at Amelia nest week..........the question is, do I give him the photo? 🤐

 

 

 

 

Amen brother.

[AHa]

Some of you in this hobby have a bird's eye view of its inner workings. I guess I instinctively knew what Ed has shared but to see it in black and white is a little startling. It is so easy to buy into the hype.

 

In reading Joel Finn's obit, it is easy to see how he might come across enough parts to assemble the car as it is today but just as easy to find the original chassis and a truck motor. The truck motor could have replaced the car motor in 1913 or later in an effort to keep the car viable for racing. History is a wonderful thing but way too easy to manipulate.

 

 

[Walt G]

Ed makes a good point. But I also think that many who comment on authenticity do not base their findings on what they can trace back far enough. They look at some publications ( commercial or club) from the 1960s on up and decide that is the real story when in fact it may not be. But because they read it someplace then it just has to be and they become "experts". I have said it before "myth" ( of what was what) becomes "fact" if it is around (and repeated) long enough even in research. Unfortunately not many of us here were around to actually talk to the people directly involved - or close relatives that heard the story first hand from those that were. But some of us early on when in our teens or perhaps early 20s were interested enough to listen to those fellows who were then in their 70s+ tell the story of what they experienced. I was fortunate enough to be attentive and listen to many former Franklin Co. employees, the son of a race driver who was in the Vanderbilt Cup races, people whose immediate family members worked for coach builders. First person or close second person information. That is where the details of things not written down are found as it was information that the factory or race officials did not want to see in print or publication and really lend a human side to the story .

[George K]

23 minutes ago, AHa said:

Some of you in this hobby have a bird's eye view of its inner workings. I guess I instinctively knew what Ed has shared but to see it in black and white is a little startling. It is so easy to buy into the hype.

 

In reading Joel Finn's obit, it is easy to see how he might come across enough parts to assemble the car as it is today but just as easy to find the original chassis and a truck motor. The truck motor could have replaced the car motor in 1913 or later in an effort to keep the car viable for racing. History is a wonderful thing but way too easy to manipulate.

 

 

Who need to read the Riker response to the stock rule change. That took Old 16 out of racing. 600 ci rule made Alco a perfect candidate given their Berliet   license engine. Locomobile did have a stock engine near that until Riker produce the 48 for 1911. Engine displacement decreased not increased as racing continued.

 I have read your post regarding racing. To say the least they are uninformed and from a neophyte as evidenced by this post.

[StanleyRegister]

On 2/17/2022 at 3:55 PM, George K said:

...

I was told at the time of Harrahs passing he and Finn were involved in litigation about cars. I don’t know if was the Alco or a Maserati. 

...

The car is Alco parts but with an engine over the ci limits to race. It matches a Alco truck ci.

...

According to someone who was associated with Harrah's at the time, the only time Harrah ever filed a lawsuit against a seller for misrepresentation was over the Alco.  Harrah's death ended that proceeding.

 

Berliet also made boat engines.  I have thus far been unable to find a photo of a truck or boat engine to compare with what's in the Finn car, but there is at least one period image of the Alco car engine that it can be compared to.

 

By the way, one of my most unforgettable old car experiences is watching and hearing Joel Finn pound up the airport road in this car at Hershey in 1972.  I had a wonderful opportunity to take a ride in it last summer around Roslyn - it had to pretty much idle most of the time, on the slow city streets.  What a neat machine - it must be a spectacular ride when given its legs.

[Graham Man]

One more ALCO, picture says 2019 fire car? can't tell if it sold

 

https://www.huismanauction.com/auction/120/item/1910-1912-alco-90hp-6-cyl-restoration-project-11944/

 

[George K]

30 minutes ago, StanleyRegister said:

According to someone who was associated with Harrah's at the time, the only time Harrah ever filed a lawsuit against a seller for misrepresentation was over the Alco.  Harrah's death ended that proceeding.

 

Berliet also made boat engines.  I have thus far been unable to find a photo of a truck or boat engine to compare with what's in the Finn car, but there is at least one period image of the Alco car engine that it can be compared to.

 

By the way, one of my most unforgettable old car experiences is watching and hearing Joel Finn pound up the airport road in this car at Hershey in 1972.  I had a wonderful opportunity to take a ride in it last summer around Roslyn - it had to pretty much idle most of the time, on the slow city streets.  What a neat machine - it must be a spectacular ride when given its legs.

Thank you for your work and insights.

[AHa]

2 hours ago, George K said:

Who need to read the Riker response to the stock rule change. That took Old 16 out of racing. 600 ci rule made Alco a perfect candidate given their Berliet   license engine. Locomobile did have a stock engine near that until Riker produce the 48 for 1911. Engine displacement decreased not increased as racing continued.

 I have read your post regarding racing. To say the least they are uninformed and from a neophyte as evidenced by this post.

George, I wear the badge, neophyte, proudly. How does anyone not as versed in racing history as you learn? Yes, I was oblivious of the rule change but the question remains, Did that rule change effect all racing events over all the world? And what about events at fairs in small towns all across the US and Australia? Were engines above 600 ci excluded from them as well? I don't know the answer to this question and am proud to ask it.

 

There was a certain Fiat race car that was raced in Europe, then shipped to Australia. It lost its Fiat motor along the way but the Chassis was used with different motors for another 20 years. It ended up in an Australian museum, far away from its beginning, so far in fact, nobody recognized it as being a Fiat. All kinds of racing events took place on Friday and Saturday nights in this country and others and very few were sanctioned by any one.

Edited February 25, 2022 by AHa (see edit history)

[8E45E]

5 hours ago, edinmass said:

 

I have no knowledge of any history of the racing Loco, but what I can tell you is that 80 percent of all pre 1916 cars have been pick up trucks, hay wagons, tractors, and other assorted repurposed vehicles in their lifetime. No car can be considered correct unless you have photos of it in the 30's or 40's. Even then.....you must look at them with a critical eye. Look close at coachwork.......half the time the back half of the car isn't 1/3 the quality of the front end..........that old Packard or Pierce was hauling sacks of feed and bales of hay after the original owner bought their next car. There are countless cars with "pure reputations" that are assembled floor sweepings. Proof you ask? When you see a huge horsepower brass car sell for over 500K, you can bet every decade is documented with photos and other history. When the same or similar car sells for half or less than the pure car.......you can be sure a story is lurking in the background. I recently purchased an archive from the late 30's that had photos of cars with engine and chassis numbers written on the back...........it's amazing when I type in the serial numbers and see the car in the 90's or 2000's and it went from a limo to a drop head...........and the auction wright up lists it as one of the best known examples with a perfect history...........the actual car I am talking about sold for well over a million dollars at one of the big auctions in the last seven years............and I will see it's current owner at Amelia nest week..........the question is, do I give him the photo? 🤐

Earlier in this thread, it was mentioned Barney Pollard and Austin Clark, just to name two, parked vehicles on their a$$ ends to save then from being scrapped during the second world war.  There is an early Russell in the Reynolds Museum that was saved from the WWII scrap drives this way, with a rusted out back half, while the front is still intact.

 

Craig

[edinmass]

 

The Alco sold at the Milhouse Brothers collection....a 1913 touring car was owned by the gentleman who had my 1917 White for 60 years. The Alco and White were always parked next to each other in the carriage house. The Alco was offered for sale in 1971, but the young gentleman who it was offered to exclusively couldn't swing the favorable number offered to him. Photo of the car below. 

[1937hd45]

3 hours ago, edinmass said:

 

The Alco sold at the Milhouse Brothers collection....a 1913 touring car was owned by the gentleman who had my 1917 White for 60 years. The Alco and White were always parked next to each other in the carriage house. The Alco was offered for sale in 1971, but the young gentleman who it was offered to exclusively couldn't swing the favorable number offered to him. Photo of the car below. 

Ed, Is this the ALCO that is now in the Nethercutt Collection? If so Henry Austin Clark pulled out of Walt Scott's junk yard here in Ridgefield, Ct. some time in the 1950's.

 

Bob 

[CarlLaFong]

Here's my ALCO story. 60 plus years ago I was a junior high school old car nut. I would pedal my bicycle around my San Fernando Valley neighborhood looking for old cars. We had a few old car hoarders. One in particular, his name was Grobley I think had a doze or so card behind a fence. I was peering through th chain link and he wanders over an we spoke for a few moments. He told me about all the cars. There was a large very old truck and I thought I would dazzle him with my old car knowledge and I ask "is that a Nah Quad?" he says, "No, that's an Alcoa". I thought oh, OK. Later I thought an Alcoa would have much more aluminum than that rusty hulk. Many years later I realized it must have been an ALCO. I read an article somewhere a few years ago about an ALCO truck that was rescued from a Los Angeles suburb. I'll bet it was old Grobley's Alcoa

[37S2de]

Back when I was young and dumb and thought I could make a living transporting antique cars, I transported what was labeled as a 1911 model ALCO for the Dragone brothers.  I think it was in Nebraska and I moved it to CT.   About two days before Hershey in year 2000.  They said they were going to work through the night to detail it to go to Hershey.  I dropped the ALCO off and loaded up the Model T in the background of the photo and took that to Hershey for them.

 

Some of you might recognize the young man in the photo

 

Tom

[46 woodie]

Graham Man, the picture you posted of the "Fire Car" is someone using their ingenuity. It looks like they used a touring car body and took the rear panel and moved it forward to mount the seat ,to make a roadster pick-up type of cab. As it's not an engine or ladder truck so it would make a fairly easy restoration.

[1937hd45]

The green ALCO spent a few years on Long Island, think it is in new hands now. 

[edinmass]

Bob, either I grabbed the wrong photo……certainly possible, or the car was a 1912 and not a 1913. I’m working with oral information from an elderly gentleman. I sent for more info on the car to the family who had it. I know they have paperwork and photos. Ed.

[1937hd45]

8 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Bob, either I grabbed the wrong photo……certainly possible, or the car was a 1912 and not a 1913. I’m working with oral information from an elderly gentleman. I sent for more info on the car to the family who had it. I know they have paperwork and photos. Ed.

That dark blue ALCO in the Nethercutt collection is a newer restoration than the one on the same car, when it was light blue with whitewalls. Why I remember this stuff is a mystery. The more high end cars I study the more often they get RErestored. 

[Graham Man]

46,

   My guess was they found of fabricated the touring body parts?  Hopefully someone is restoring it, no detail in the auction posting