Earley Twin Six (V12) unable to identify

[Chris Gamm]

Unable to find anything on the web that looks like this engine (scroll down engine picture is last).  Closest was the 1915 Buick, but head is different.   Holley Bros model H carburetor, Delco ignition, looks to be a modified Model T pan, aluminum block and transmission.  Any help is much appreciated

Edited January 19, 2022 by Chris Gamm (see edit history)

[Terry Bond]

Looks like a modified Model T oil pan.

Terry

[alsancle]

Is it a path finder?

[f.f.jones]

Pathfinder Series XIII A Five-Passenger Touring 1913.

Claimed to be the last surviving Pathfinder.

This car has a 281 cubic inch L-head 4-cylinder engine.

A later, larger model had the V-12. So far, no photos.

http://worldofclassiccars.blogspot.com/2016/03/pathfinder-series-xiii-five-passenger.html?spref=pi

Edited January 19, 2022 by f.f.jones
Added info (see edit history)

[sagefinds]

Packard had a V-12 they called the twin six in late 1915 for a few years but I can't say that is it. 

[1939_Buick]

11 minutes ago, sagefinds said:

Packard had a V-12 they called the twin six in late 1915 for a few years but I can't say that is it. 

To me not the same

 

https://www.autozine.org/Archive/Packard/classic/Twin_Six.html

 

https://classiccars.com/listings/view/1337949/1915-packard-twin-six-for-sale-in-norwalk-ohio-44857  Has images on engine

Edited January 19, 2022 by 1939_Buick (see edit history)

[joe_padavano]

The rocker arms look a little like those used on Duesenberg aircraft engines in the teens, although this is not one of those engines.

 

[sagefinds]

You are correct,definitely not Packard. I don't know where the Buick suggestion came from,I don't think they ever even had a V-8 in those days. Pathfinder is the only other one I've ever heard of. Those arms that open the valves are a little reminiscent of the Rochester-Duesenberg walking beam 4-cyl powerhouse engine. 

[joe_padavano]

28 minutes ago, 1939_Buick said:

To me not the same

 

https://www.autozine.org/Archive/Packard/classic/Twin_Six.html

 

https://classiccars.com/listings/view/1337949/1915-packard-twin-six-for-sale-in-norwalk-ohio-44857  Has images on engine

The teens-vintage Packard Twin Six was a flathead.

[joe_padavano]

I'm wondering if this is an aircraft or marine engine. This Sunbeam Mohawk is similar in configuration, but clearly not the same engine.

 

 

[Gunsmoke]

The crisp and artful design of the manifolds and valve setups suggest to me European, but pedal arrangement is LHD. Maybe an early Duesenberg prototype? That rocker arrangement is a big clue, maybe a Bugatti prototype?.  

[wayne sheldon]

The "teacup" style drain sump and lack of rolled edges on the model T modified pan suggest that the pan is circa 1914. That drain sump became smaller and flatter in 1914. About 1916, the edge was rolled over slightly to make the pan stronger.

 

It certainly looks like something someone altered or modified extensively to adapt to some different application.

Any indications whether it was originally a twelve? Or maybe two sixes? I am trying to understand why the pan change? Possibly a total loss aircraft converted to sump splash oiling?

Very interesting engine.

[alsancle]

This is the pathfinder V12

 

[nzcarnerd]

Some discussion here which includes a familiar photo - 

So far I have not found what valve actuating system the Weidely V12 used.

[TexRiv_63]

4 hours ago, nzcarnerd said:

Some discussion here which includes a familiar photo - 

So far I have not found what valve actuating system the Weidely V12 used.

when I posted this back in 2018 I was amazed that there were so many early V-12 cars built. If you scroll down in my post you will see a distributor that is a duplicate of the picture you posted.

[nzcarnerd]

3 hours ago, TexRiv_63 said:

when I posted this back in 2018 I was amazed that there were so many early V-12 cars built. If you scroll down in my post you will see a distributor that is a duplicate of the picture you posted.

Yes that was why I posted the link.

[ron hausmann]

All - in 1917 and 1918 Kissel offered a “Kissel Double Six” model, which used a Wiedley 12 engine block. Only one survives today in Denver. Somewhere I have those technical pictures, but not now. It’s possible that this is one of these engines. Weidley 12 engines were also used in some period trucks.

Ron Hausmann 

[Terry Harper]

Here is a view of a Kissel Double Six

 

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Terry Harper (see edit history)

[ron hausmann]

All -

    Here are a few pictures of the internals of a Kissel Double Six Wiedley engine.

    The subject engine is not a Kissel Double six insofar as the Kissel had overhead valve springs, whereas this one has side valves. And some of the configurations don’t match.

    The subject engine has side rocker arms, which are very similar to those I’ve seen on some Duesenberg walking beam engines. I sure feels like it’s a duesy to me. 
   Ron Hausmann

[Chris Gamm]

Thank you all for your input!!!!!  The local auction has gone above my wallet, but still has 45 mins left if anyone is interested.

 

https://hibid.com/lot/108965106/believed-to-be-1916-packard-12-cylinder

 

Again thank you all for the wonderful input.

[1939_Buick]

The flat galvanised plate at where the flywheel may/would be does not look of the time .

An aircraft or marine engine adapted for another purpose?

Interesting layout

 

Sold for 3,180.00 USD

 

Edit

Holley carb shown

another image from the auction

MOHDER (German?)

Bore 2 7/8

Stroke 3 13/16

CU IN 297

HP SAE 40

(but may not be correct - buyer beware)

Edited January 20, 2022 by 1939_Buick (see edit history)

[sagefinds]

Weidely must have been very versatile,I had a 4cyl Cletrac crawler tractor motor made by them. Noteworthy of a later model V-12 would be GMC putting two V-6 engines together in some of their farm and work trucks in the 60's.