1925 engine does not like hills.

[dibarlaw]

 Well, I opened up the clearance to .009 and the engine does sound noisier. But my vacuum improved to 21 in vu. I am still detecting a bit of a miss. So far, I was able to climb some local hills.

I drove up route 30 west up to "Radio Hill" (over a 1/2 mile pull) to fill up with 87 octane NON ETHANOL. @ $3.19/gal here. 

 The car did not seem to fight as badly as before. As long as I had it set at half throttle it was not loosing power. I did about a 10 mile drive and vacuum was holding at 21 in.vu. Still after many thousands invested in the engine rebuild with Ross Aluminum pistons and balancing the engine should be peppier. 

If there is rain in the morning, we will bring the 1937. If it looks OK, we will bring the 1925 to the AACA Museum's "Sizzling Sumer Cruise-In". About a 65 mile drive for me.

[Terry Wiegand]

Larry, it sounds like you are making some progress with this.   Please explain a little further what you mean by detecting a little bit of a miss.  If you have good plugs, good plug wires, and a GOOD distributor cap, there should not be any miss at all I am thinking.  I am sure that you have checked that cap under a microscope so to speak.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

AACA Life Member #947918

[Brian_Heil]

Can we get 0.012?

[Brian_Heil]

Is the timing advancing with RPM?  As in are the advance weights free and lubed, springs hooked up and everything under the breaker plate is doing its job?

 

Jazz the throttle with the timing light hooked up and confirm it advances ~30 degrees and returns. 

[Hubert_25-25]

The uneven burning on the plugs is still bothersome and you say there is a miss.  Consider getting some insulated pliers.  Put a tachometer on the engine and remove and replace each wire and record the RPM for each removed wire.  That would narrow down any cap or wire or plug issues.      Hugh

 

[maok]

1 hour ago, Hubert_25-25 said:

The uneven burning on the plugs is still bothersome and you say there is a miss.  Consider getting some insulated pliers.  Put a tachometer on the engine and remove and replace each wire and record the RPM for each removed wire.  That would narrow down any cap or wire or plug issues.      Hugh

 

Definitely fix the obvious first.

[dibarlaw]

Update...

 Had no rain on Saturday morning so I took the 1925 to the Hershey museum Cruise-in. We left at 6:20 AM and arrived at 8:12 for a 68 mile trip. We were averaging a bit over 40 MPH. Joan followed and said crossing the Susquehanna River on the 6 lane RT 581 bridge I was approaching 50 MPH. There seemed to be no problems negotiating hills.  When we arrived I asked one of the people parking cars where All the Buick people's cars were to be parked as prearranged. He did not know and told me to park along the lane in the grass and shut the engine off..... Afterward he almost immediately came back and told me were the Buick people where to be set up. You guessed it ....no start.

The place the fellow placed me was to be for another group's display and they were not happy. Also I remember driving up and smelling a burning smell... Not electrical, not oil but I was going through areas where Amish Eli spreads a lot of .. IT. Anyway it dissipated. But when I checked the distributer side I found the front bearing area of the water pump discolored from heat some burned packing and loosing coolant. This is the pump that failed before and took out my timing gear so I sent it out to Reeve's to redo the bearings and line ream. It has not gotten hot or dripped a drop for the prior several hundred miles driven. The gland nuts only hand tight.

 After I got the Buick display area set up I spent the rest of our time trying to troubleshoot the no start issue. Checking all the usual suspects and finding no spark to the plugs then nothing from the coil. Again, I had gone thru all this the week before and most components were less than weeks old.

 First I checked that I did not take out the timing gear again. All ok there. I cleaned up the area and installed some fresh packing. One fellow came up with a multitester to check continuity and voltages. Friend Dave Blaufarb came up with another 6 volt coil in case. Many folks came to give assistance. Our girl mechanic Pam said it was the points. So they were filed again because the spare new set I was sold the adjustable point did not match the threads.  I reset the gap and the engine started! 

Thanks to all! The MG guy, Pam and all the others that helped get me going!

 Dave Blaufarb's 1941 behind my car.

 It was a little after 1:00 and some show participants were leaving since some showers were approaching. Once she was running again I told Joan that we were going to try to make it home. I took it easier on the way back because of the water pump. I also had to wait for Joan to put gas in our KIA. Not wanting to shut the car off.

 I ran into a bit of rain south of Mechanicsburg. The engine seemed to be running fine going back home. Intermittent showers so I got a bit wet since I did not want to pull over to put the top up. Getting back into Chambersburg the roads were wet and rain was more steady. The engine seemed to stumble going down grades during deacceleration possibly from moisture. 3:25 PM home safe and sound back in her garage "Beulah" is still having a well deserved rest. 137.1 mile round trip. 

 This is the longest distance she has been driven and the longest continuously run time at over 2 hours.

More sorting to be done. 

 

 

Edited June 21, 2021 by dibarlaw (see edit history)

[JFranklin]

Once into the garage did you shut down and then restart a few times as a test?

[dibarlaw]

No. I was done in... So I had a beer and relaxed. Later that afternoon I went back to dry off the car. Maybe today.

[Hubert_25-25]

Larry, Glad that you had a successful trip. 

 

Points should not have given you any troubles.  I got to thinking about matching condensors to the coil and went down this rabbit hole thinking about quality as well.  Better quality or just paying for a warranty - but not a bad option if you just want to take the old one in and get a replacement.

Consider the following choice.  

"Standard brand" is carried by many local auto part stores.  They only go back to 1930 Buick, but that is still a Buick 6 cylinder.   

They sell 2 coils and 2 condensors. 

Blue Streak UC14 (6 volt, internal resistor  ) limited lifetime   $24

UC14T 1 year, 12,000 miles   $17

https://www.standardbrand.com/en/ecatalog?year=1925

For the condensor, a similar thing.

DR60 - limited lifetime            $12

DR60T - 1 year, 12,000 miles    $8

 

By the way, verify that your coil is negative terminal to the points?  

Hugh

 

[Rock10]

Just a thought on burnt points. That will happen if the coil is too hot. Does it have a working resistor? Sorry if this was discussed before.

[Terry Wiegand]

Rock10,

Are you saying that a 6-Volt coil with 55,000 volts is too hot and will burn the points?

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

AACA Life Member #947918

[Rock10]

I did research on our 36 which had been converted to 12 volts. The coil in the car said to use with external resistor. The consequence for not using the resistor was burning the points. His coil should have an internal resistor but it may have failed? Just a thought. Not sure what the resistor does as far as voltage drop. The points don't see the 55,000 volts.  I think it works on the low voltage side of the coil between the coil and the points so it would be reducing the amp draw @ 6V when the points break? Not an expert. Just my thoughts.

Edited June 21, 2021 by Rock10 (see edit history)

[Morgan Wright]

2 hours ago, Rock10 said:

The points don't see the 55,000 volts.  I think it works on the low voltage side of the coil between the coil and the points so it would be reduci 

 

I agree, the points get the low voltage circuit of the coil, and the "breaking" of the point gap produces the surge that the secondary winding makes into a high voltage (low amp) spark to the plugs.

[Terry Wiegand]

I don't want anyone to think that I have hijacked Larry's discussion here, but this could be a good place to ask the very learned electrical folks a question or two.  I think someone mentioned something about electrical values for a condenser.  I have always been of the thinking that a condenser is a condenser is a condenser.  Please enlighten us who have some questions about things that have been said regarding condensers.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

AACA Life Member #947918

[Rock10]

In the electronics field it's called it a capacitor. It's basically an electrical storage device. Most automotive units measure between .2uf and .3uf. That reads as micro farads. In the car it serves to smooth the flow across the points as the field in the coil collapses to recharge ( when you break or open the points).  A good one should read infinite resistance on an Ohmmeter.

[Daves1940Buick56S]

Terry:

 

The short answer is the capacitor (automobile folk still call them condensors) should have a value of about 0.22 microfarad with a breakdown voltage rating of at least 250 volts DC. This is for use with the standard ignition coils we use with the primary inductance of about 5 millihenries (unloaded). This provides a "tank" circuit that oscillates at about 2 to 5 kHz (considering that the inductance changes as it is loaded) after the initial voltage surge right after the points open and facilitates the "burn" of about 1 millisecond (if I remember the figures right). Look at the 4 videos I made in the link, it explains it all. I was going to go on and cover CD systems but life got in the way. Hope to finish them this year.

 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMAnMHk844kgKmSlM226DYQ

 

Cheers, Dave

[Rock10]

Yeah. What he said ^^^

 

[Morgan Wright]

Yeah, I totally understand what he said ^^^^^

 

What?

[dibarlaw]

Thanks again Dave for your videos. I taught pretty much the same standard "Kettering" system as part of my Power Tech and Small Gas Engine classes. I do understand all the principals. That is except when one or more of the components is not functioning. I remember my Briggs & Stratton manuals showing how to determine over or under capacity by which side of the points had a build up. Of course the components we get from the parts store have no value identification. I have my old capacitor checker used for my radio work and  did try to test some units. Unsuccessfully.

Edited June 22, 2021 by dibarlaw
spelling (see edit history)

[M1842]

16 hours ago, Daves1940Buick56S said:

Terry:

 

The short answer is the capacitor (automobile folk still call them condensors) should have a value of about 0.22 microfarad with a breakdown voltage rating of at least 250 volts DC. This is for use with the standard ignition coils we use with the primary inductance of about 5 millihenries (unloaded). This provides a "tank" circuit that oscillates at about 2 to 5 kHz (considering that the inductance changes as it is loaded) after the initial voltage surge right after the points open and facilitates the "burn" of about 1 millisecond (if I remember the figures right). Look at the 4 videos I made in the link, it explains it all. I was going to go on and cover CD systems but life got in the way. Hope to finish them this year.

 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMAnMHk844kgKmSlM226DYQ

 

Cheers, Dave

Not to mention the turboencabulator!

[Henri Hendriksen]

On 6/14/2021 at 11:33 AM, dibarlaw said:

I have been discussing this with Hugh but it is always good to get other opinions.

 Symptoms.... loss of power on long grade. The first time it happened I was able to downshift but barely was able to crest the hill. Later on the return trip on the same hill I was not so lucky and the engine quit. We had to back down about 75 yards and turn into a farm lane. When I tried to start the engine it would flood. So we played the waiting game and 45 minutes later it reluctantly started. I got over the hill in 2nd and drove the remaining 15 miles home. The engine was running rough. I had checked around the manifold ports with carb cleaner to detect a vacuum leak. No difference. I thought that the heat riser tube may be opening up when the engine was hot. So this was my experiment for today.

 

Hugh:

 I was able to swap out the single manifold fitting for the double. So I can monitor the engine with the vacuum gage while driving. When I was removing the original single fitting, I saw that it was cracked. Boy would that be the ticket to solving the vacuum problem!!    NOPE!  I installed the double fitting and ran the line through the hole near the top of the cowl.

At idle it was holding over 18 in vac.

 The engine was still hard to start. When I first retimed after the new timing gear it would start every time at the 2nd revolution with the spark set at full advance. I remembered you said that your timing of would go off from the distributer shaft setting. So, I retimed the engine again. Setting between 1-6 and 7 DEG. I tried 1-6 but the rotor button would be pretty far off to move it this far advanced. I also reset # 1 valves again since they seemed a bit tight.  .007

 Started much better and after dialing in the carb, it was holding steady at 17.5 in vac. I did about a 5-mile drive. The engine seemed to run much smoother. At 35 mph on level road vacuum was holding about 15 in. Then I tried to take a small grade. Vacuum dropped to less than 5in. So, a long hill would really starve the vacuum tank. At a rolling stop I could pull out in high but vacuum would drop below 5in. Back in the garage vacuum was back at 17.5 in. steady at idle. When engine was revved up vacuum would drop to below 5in. Also noticed that the glass in line fuel filter was not staying full as it usually was.

 Maddening!

 Best Regards:

 Larry

I had a good read through all the suggestions. It could be a fuel problem e.g. a suction problem getting fuel out of the tank. Is the tank cap breathing hole clear? Is the fuel pick up pipe in the tank OK? Banjo connection on the tank OK? You compression looks good. Stick with 0.008 valve clearance. Less clearance might not close the valves properly. You can even make it 0.010 it doesn't make that much difference. Make sure the distributor shaft is not slipping on gear. As far as I know the timing should be 17 degrees before top dead centre. This is on my 1927 master. You have to confirm that! You said 6 degrees BTDC. If it should be 17 degrees it is a problem! It will not pull up the hill. I think your vacuum measures are OK. The brass air adjustment knob on your carby should be level with that ratchet spring. Make sure the spring inside the knob is OK.  Have fun!

[dibarlaw]

Henri:

 I know the 1927 engines have a different timiming specifications than the 1925s.The 1925 timing is set at 7 degrees ATDC with the spark at full retard. (So the engine can be crank started without kickback.) Because of the modern fuel situation I have timing set closer to 1/6 (TDC).

 The 1925 engine on full spark advance would see 17 deg. BTDC.

Edited August 8, 2021 by dibarlaw (see edit history)

[dibarlaw]

We just had our Beulah out for a drive to brunch after church. Did a 10 mile round trip on the Lincoln Highwway (route 30). On the flat it runs great. Still bogging down on long 1/2 mile hill pulls.

 I did change out my modern coil for an 80+ year old Malory unit with the 2 ohm balast resistor.

 The Malory is on the upper right.

 

 So far I have taken 3 trips over 5 miles each. The car now starts instantly whenever we would stop for a period of time. Also, when starting cold with the choke out after a revolution I have pushed the choke in and it started imediately. Still needs more pep on the hills though.

[32buick67]

...following....any updates on this Larry?

 

Things working ok this Fall?

If yes, what was done to improve performance?

Is the car now put away for winter?

[dibarlaw]

32buick67:

 To answer all your questions...

#1. Things were working fine this fall. Seemingly all drives were pleasent. (It still does not like hills.)

#2. The better OLD MALLORY coil with the balast resistor has kept the point burning at bay.

#3. I have the car put away 2 blocks from my house ready to go if the weather is nice.

 Top up, ready for a nap.

Cold is not a problem for me but salt and slush are. Since the accident with my 1937 I am now trying to sell that car so that garage space was available. I may need to use the home garage in case I need to part out the 1937.