Car Clubs

[John348]

On 4/9/2021 at 4:59 PM, Pfeil said:

 

Why do you think this is?

Pontiac Club (POCI) today - 6,000 --  when in 1985-95 the roster was about 10K. I can tell you why many members left.

This is one of the answers,  and this car has nothing to do with the mission statement of the club, and yet it was on the front cover of the club magazine!

 

 

Hey Pfeil.

Back in the 70's my Father had a few late 30's Pontiacs. He was a member of the POCI and they did not have a year cut-off. Within a few months the magazine (which was more like a newsletter) was consumed with GTO content. Keep in mind that those cars at that time were just used cars, 10 years old an newer. I can hear my old man now complaining "what's with these f!@#$%^g used cars" 

Today National Club's face many different problems, and many are trying 'something' to save or hopefully add to their membership. Unfortunately, they don't look at the other clubs failed attempts and are convinced they won't fail if they try the same thing... 

 

  

[plymouthcranbrook]

13 hours ago, ted sweet said:

i was a member until i tried to join the local chapter with my 74 cuda. they wanted nothing to do with me  or my "new car" which was over 40 years old.

I was in the main club from 2003 till 2015 and the “local chapter”(based about 120 miles from my house) from 2005 till 2014.  Nice people in the most part but although they liked Plymouths a lot it was much more of a social club than anything car related.  I began to lose interest when the big topic after a weekend long event was a new card game a member had discovered. When I said I was leaving relations deteriorated rather quickly. That was the only car club I ever joined. Lone Wolf ever since.(I had an 80 Volare that I took some grief over as well so I know what you are saying. They did get used to it)

[Pfeil]

9 hours ago, John348 said:

 

Hey Pfeil.

Back in the 70's my Father had a few late 30's Pontiacs. He was a member of the POCI and they did not have a year cut-off. Within a few months the magazine (which was more like a newsletter) was consumed with GTO content. Keep in mind that those cars at that time were just used cars, 10 years old an newer. I can hear my old man now complaining "what's with these f!@#$%^g used cars" 

Today National Club's face many different problems, and many are trying 'something' to save or hopefully add to their membership. Unfortunately, they don't look at the other clubs failed attempts and are convinced they won't fail if they try the same thing... 

 

  

POCI sort of shot themselves in the foot a couple of times. In 1992 I finished going through my 69 H-O LeMans. I built the car for Grand Touring, most people, even POCI people didn't know the car was any different than stock, other than ride height and I always brought it to a event on it's original wheels with it's original wheel covers. On the show field I would jack the car up and let it down soft to keep any attention from it being a little lower than stock. Some of us had already figured out how to create a negative roll center steering using parts out of G.M.'s wide variety of parts from other cars to achieve our end and no one could tell the difference from factory Detroit springs or springs that came from Eibach. As far as engines go, all Pontiac engines are medium blocks and unless you really know what to look for and have a parts book with you, you can't tell a 455 from a 400 to a 350. Lucky for me all large journal blocks and 350 and 336 and 326 have mountains, so my 455 pretended to be a 350.

 So I started going to POCI events. It seemed the club had some sort of good old boy attitude.

Tempest, Tempest Custom, Custom S, Lemans, LeMans GTO, GTO, GTO JUDGE, Firebird, Firebird Sprint, Firebird Esprit, Firebird 326, 350, 350H-O, Firebird 400, Formula 400 and Trans Am. Plus Astre and CanAm, Grand AM. These were the cars that didn't matter to them. If you showed up with a pristine "C" Body 1940 Torpedo, or a 1931 Oakland roadster V-8, or a 59 Bonneville hardtop coupe etc. you were whole heartedly welcomed with members wanting to know all about you and your car. If you showed up with a CanAm you were basically ignored. That was the shot in the foot #1.

I had friends in GTOAA, some of those guys also had fast Catalinas , Chieftains, Grand Prix's, but they welcomed me and my LeMans with no problem. They even had Tempest, Lemans and big car categories at their GTOAA chapter shows! And this was a GTO club!

At meetings almost all the time the topic of getting no love from the POCI boys arises. A takeover was in order, the thought that if enough GTOAA members held office in POCI that POCI could be changed. Well that actually happened and all was well until the highly modified Custom cars, the low riders etc. appeared. When the GTO guys took over, modified Pontiac's just seemed like a extension of the factory hot rods, after all Pontiac went from #6 in sales to #3 in sales and held that for nearly a decade because of Pontiac's racing involvement so it seemed all perfectly natural. When the low rider cars appeared and some of those guys got into office it changed the club profoundly and members started leaving.      

[padgett]

Local show started with "before 1980" and attendance was lackluster. Removed the restriction and attendance tripled. Besides even back in the day, I usually had a service manual, mags and tires, and a good radio under the bed before the car ever arrived. My Judge is set up for autocrossing but except recent tires and a AGM battery is all period-correct, event the wheels are factory 15x8s from the 70s, the stock 14x6/G7014s weren't even safe in the driveway.

 

Clubs need to move with the times or are going to fail. Think the original charter of the AACA is the best, "Since 1935, AACA has had one goal: The preservation and enjoyment of automotive history of all types." To me "all types" for a car of the 70s includes Americans, Ansens, and Cragars, I just keep the orginal ringless 14x6 Rallys in baggies.

[Pfeil]

On 4/12/2021 at 9:30 AM, padgett said:

Local show started with "before 1980" and attendance was lackluster. Removed the restriction and attendance tripled. Besides even back in the day, I usually had a service manual, mags and tires, and a good radio under the bed before the car ever arrived. My Judge is set up for autocrossing but except recent tires and a AGM battery is all period-correct, event the wheels are factory 15x8s from the 70s, the stock 14x6/G7014s weren't even safe in the driveway.

 

Clubs need to move with the times or are going to fail. Think the original charter of the AACA is the best, "Since 1935, AACA has had one goal: The preservation and enjoyment of automotive history of all types." To me "all types" for a car of the 70s includes Americans, Ansens, and Cragars, I just keep the orginal ringless 14x6 Rallys in baggies.

"Since 1935, AACA has had one goal: The preservation and enjoyment of automotive history of all types." To me "all types" for a car of the 70s includes Americans, Ansens, and Cragars, I just keep the orginal ringless 14x6 Rallys in baggies.

 

You might see a car as you described in a DPC class, but not in a AACA judged show.---Thank goodness!

[John_S_in_Penna]

On 4/12/2021 at 12:30 PM, padgett said:

Local show started with "before 1980" and attendance was lackluster.  Removed the restriction and attendance tripled.

 

"Removed the restriction and attendance tripled."

 

Yes, that is the temptation:  Lower the standards

of any organization merely to achieve numbers.

 

If the above show boomed, the cause may have been

much more than the newer cars.  It sounds like the

case above was from several years ago.  Were there

that many people waiting to see the cars of the 1980's? 

Do owners of Hudsons, Studebakers, and Packards really

want to be outnumbered by street rods and modern Challengers?

 

Said the organizers of the dog show:  "You know,

we can triple our numbers if we'll only invite cats!"

 

Edited April 13, 2021 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[John348]

8 hours ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

 

"Removed the restriction and attendance tripled."

 

Yes, that is the temptation:  Lower the standards

of any organization merely to achieve numbers.

 

If the above show boomed, the cause may have been

much more than the newer cars.  It sounds like the

case above was from several years ago.  Were there

that many people waiting to see the cars of the 1980's? 

Do owners of Hudsons, Studebakers, and Packards really

want to be outnumbered by street rods and modern Challengers?

 

Said the organizers of the dog show:  "You know,

we can triple our numbers if we'll only invite cats!"

 

 

Well said John, well said!

 

There has been a long running show on Long Island at an old estate called Westbury Gardens. I remember going to the show with my Father in the 70's and he would park his Model A in the spectator parking, because he felt that this was for 'the really good cars' not a 'knock around' car like his.

The show is run by one of the five AACA Regions on Long Island, now it is anything goes, as long as the car owner pays their entry fee, so the spectators can look at the cars for free? (that can be an entire separate thread)

 

(getting the thread back on course)

So the region mentioned above is an example of a local club/region that has compromised themselves for money, to the point where the need to increase the gate just reflects greed.  

 

Edited April 14, 2021 by John348 (see edit history)

[padgett]

"Said the organizers of the dog show" See "Congo Black Dog"  in The Magic Christian.

 

Do not need to lower standards, just do like the AACA and have areas for different types. Should always be room for "other interesting cars".

[TAKerry]

3 hours ago, Pfeil said:

"Since 1935, AACA has had one goal: The preservation and enjoyment of automotive history of all types." To me "all types" for a car of the 70s includes Americans, Ansens, and Cragars, I just keep the orginal ringless 14x6 Rallys in baggies.

 

You might see a car as you described in a DPC class, but not in a AACA judged show.---Thank goodness!

This is the kind of separation/division that brings the club down. 

 

Kinda goes right back to Billy's original comment!  So a car has different wheels, big deal!!! I have read so many discussions regarding wide white walls on old cars and how back in the day they were a rarity. So by this standard any car with a wide white should be excluded.

 

I can certainly understand the mission of the AACA to not have full blown street rods, but something as pedestrian as changing a set of wheels should not be a disqualifier. Maybe a points deduction but disqualified?  Or how about the guy that restores his car perfectly but adds options that werent there to begin with?  Still all stock but not the way THAT car came off the line.

[padgett]

So we have two camps: "Exactly as it left the factory." and "if it has wheels, I'm interested". Seems like there should be a place on a show field for both. In my years of points judging I NEVER saw a car that was exactly as it left the factory - includes national marque meets. Quit because few were willing or wanted their car judged to that level and for me, if not, why bother ?

 

True, my interests are primarily the '50s and up and used to specialize in 57-up Pontiacs but am pretty catholic just not interested in a car that cannot be driven safely in a Florida frog strangler (and every time I travel to-from South Florida the odds are that will hit one or two squalls (remember one at Sebring that stood the GoodYear blimp up on end and some cars were just visible as moving mounds of water and another at Sun&Fun that damaged (including flipped) a Whole Bunch of vintage aircraft - 'nother interest).

 

So talking about adding options, what about those that could not be ordered together ? Or those not available at a particular assembly plant (yes we had that information).

 

So particularly for Muscle Cars, I'm fine with "as it might have been built that year/era (and including COPOs, a "foreman's friend", fleet orders, and "body in aisle".)

[John348]

1 hour ago, padgett said:

So we have two camps: "Exactly as it left the factory." and "if it has wheels, I'm interested". Seems like there should be a place on a show field for both. In my years of points judging I NEVER saw a car that was exactly as it left the factory - includes national marque meets. Quit because few were willing or wanted their car judged to that level and for me, if not, why bother ?

 

True, my interests are primarily the '50s and up and used to specialize in 57-up Pontiacs but am pretty catholic just not interested in a car that cannot be driven safely in a Florida frog strangler (and every time I travel to-from South Florida the odds are that will hit one or two squalls (remember one at Sebring that stood the GoodYear blimp up on end and some cars were just visible as moving mounds of water and another at Sun&Fun that damaged (including flipped) a Whole Bunch of vintage aircraft - 'nother interest).

 

So talking about adding options, what about those that could not be ordered together ? Or those not available at a particular assembly plant (yes we had that information).

 

So particularly for Muscle Cars, I'm fine with "as it might have been built that year/era (and including COPOs, a "foreman's friend", fleet orders, and "body in aisle".)

 

If you are talking local car shows is one thing, but even those shows should have some sort of rules.

 

 But when you are talking about shows with a standard recognized award "as it was delivered to the public when new" pretty much sums it up There is no room for "what if's" or "could of" unless supported by paperwork. So regardless of anyone's personal thoughts or feelings the rules are pretty self explanatory, once when you drive the car on the field you are playing by those rules.

 

Now lets try to get this thread back on track, if a person enjoys modified cars or like to modify their own cars I am certain there are no shortages of clubs to suit their interest. I do not want to tell anyone how they should enjoy their car, and that should be a two way street. Just as much as people are passionate about modifying their car to drive in some sort of reptile storm (whatever a Florida frog strangler is), people are equally passionate about restored as delivered vehicles.  

Edited April 14, 2021 by John348 (see edit history)

[padgett]

Well usually the owner knows. Is a very long discussion earlier about where parts had to be cast and a better process than was available 100 years ago was used - but would require disassembly to tell.

 

I used to figure a MINIMUM of four hours to properly judge a modern car with "some disassembly required.

 

There is current "MotorTrend" show whose opening shows a Pontiac A_body speedo. While that particular A-body used a similar dash from 1968 to 1972, that speedo was for a car manufactured after about 1 January, 1972.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 14, 2021 by padgett (see edit history)

[John348]

8 minutes ago, padgett said:

Well usually the owner knows. Is a very long discussion earlier about where parts had to be cast and a better process than was available 100 years ago was used - but would require disassembly to tell.

 

I used to figure a MINIMUM of four hours to properly judge a modern car with "some disassembly required.

 

There is current "MotorTrend" show whose opening shows a Pontiac A_body speedo. While that particular A-body used a similar dash from 1968 to 1972, that speedo was for a car manufactured after about 1 January, 1972.

 

 

 

 

 

I am sure if you look hard enough you can find that club, or maybe just focus your energy and knowledge to start one for people of that share your similar interest? Seems easier to me then to try to reinvent an established accepted systems used in other clubs. Just think of that club

 

I had found when I was the National Judging Chair for a marquee club the few times I received complaints about judges spending an excessive amount of time on a car it always came down to a judge who had to find something wrong in an attempt to prove they knew everything.

[padgett]

Proves my point.

 

ps Am a member (even pay dues) of several clubs and forums & a life member of one (gives a discount for the aged). Just this one is more enjoyable particularly that some always feel compelled to disagree or categorize. Something about a pig...

 

Guess many do not care if a radio has the proper date code. Even funnier some do.

[8E45E]

13 hours ago, padgett said:

So we have two camps: "Exactly as it left the factory." and "if it has wheels, I'm interested". Seems like there should be a place on a show field for both. In my years of points judging I NEVER saw a car that was exactly as it left the factory - includes national marque meets. Quit because few were willing or wanted their car judged to that level and for me, if not, why bother ?

'Exactly as it left the factory' can sometimes render a car as unsafe to drive.   I've seen brand new cars just unloaded off the carrier with inspection stickers and grease pencil markings all over the windshield, some which would block the drivers view, if left in place.  As well, many options were shipped in the trunk, such as wheel covers and radios and left there for the dealer to install prior to delivery to the customer.  Now who is going to leave the nice, shiny wheel covers in the 'original box as it was dropped in the trunk' at a car show with the bare rims exposed? 

 

There were number of 1989 ZR-1 Corvettes hidden away 'as it left the factory'.  There were a couple of recalls which included brakes for them.  Instead of returning the car to the dealer to have the repair done, these owners requested the dealer to send the new parts to them.  

 

Craig 

[padgett]

Speaking of Corvettes, the 69 ZL-1s would not fit into the carriers with the fender flares installed - were shipped in the back for the dealer to install. I had a set of ZL-1 flares on my split window B/P car, they were common in the 70's. Suspect one with the flares still in the box would be very rare.

 

Others are almost totally unknown like the early 63 Corvette FI with the wobble pump that didn't work (not sure if ever sold on a car) & was slipstream replaced by the original gear pump.

 

Also mixing and matching Delco radios was very common including by dealers. Delco radios were very good just also very expensive. OTOH SEMA's lawyers had not yet forced a "radio accommodation package" so to get an antenna, speaker, and wiring many ordered the cheapest AM radio (about $60) option and had "something better" waiting under the bed. For my 70 Gran Sport  I had an FM stereo/8 track device and a cruise control (not available in 70 with a Muncie) waiting. That s the sort of thing I would find "period correct".

 

ps back in the day, many Delco FM stereo radios were actually two piece: the head unit with dial that went in the dash and the multiplex/amplifier on a cable above the glove box. Was interesting that swap meets had many head units that of course "worked great" but were missing the second channel.

 

 

 

 

[Pfeil]

4 hours ago, 8E45E said:

 

 

There were number of 1989 ZR-1 Corvettes hidden away 'as it left the factory'.  There were a couple of recalls which included brakes for them.  Instead of returning the car to the dealer to have the repair done, these owners requested the dealer to send the new parts to them.  

 

Craig 

No dealer in their right mind would ever do that. Very easy to loose your franchise that way and be in trouble with the fed.

[8E45E]

48 minutes ago, Pfeil said:

No dealer in their right mind would ever do that. Very easy to loose your franchise that way and be in trouble with the fed.

Once the car has left the lot and is on the new owner's property, he cannot be forced to return it to the dealer, and the dealer can't sign off and reclaim his part and labor refund from GM, and therefore, won't pop it in the mail.  It is through the arrogance at least one owner of a 1922 copper-cooled Chevrolet, which accounts for one of the two survivors. 

 

I read about it in one of the 'Headlights' columns in the old Cars & Parts magazine, if I remember correctly.

[Pfeil]

4 hours ago, 8E45E said:

Once the car has left the lot and is on the new owner's property, he cannot be forced to return it to the dealer, and the dealer can't sign off and reclaim his part and labor refund from GM, and therefore, won't pop it in the mail.  It is through the arrogance at least one owner of a 1922 copper-cooled Chevrolet, which accounts for one of the two survivors. 

 

I read about it in one of the 'Headlights' columns in the old Cars & Parts magazine, if I remember correctly.

Start over.

"There were number of 1989 ZR-1 Corvettes hidden away 'as it left the factory'.  There were a couple of recalls which included brakes for them.  Instead of returning the car to the dealer to have the repair done, these owners requested the dealer to send the new parts to them."

  More clearer to you. No dealer is going to hand off a warranty or warranty parts to a customer. He wouldn't be able to make a claim, and if he fudged the warranty, add a ghost tech, and tried to submit and was found out, he could loose the franchise and be in trouble with the fed. Way too much to risk here.

  Also if a customer received a notice, especially a notice that has something to do with safety ( like brakes ) and the customer ignores it and something happens that can be attributed to the brakes or some safety item that contributed to a accident, it means he is involved or implicated because of neglect.  

[padgett]

Thought a recall was forever or is it only safety related recalls.

 

[Pfeil]

9 minutes ago, padgett said:

Thought a recall was forever or is it only safety related recalls.

 

There is no time limit on getting a recall fixed, and most dealers should honor the recall and fix your car free of charge. The only exception is if your vehicle is older than ten years at the time of the recall, the dealer may not fix the vehicle for free. Regardless, you should still make the necessary changes or contact the automaker directly and let them know of your predicament.

[8E45E]

9 minutes ago, Pfeil said:

There is no time limit on getting a recall fixed, and most dealers should honor the recall and fix your car free of charge. The only exception is if your vehicle is older than ten years at the time of the recall, the dealer may not fix the vehicle for free. Regardless, you should still make the necessary changes or contact the automaker directly and let them know of your predicament.

We're now discussing a car that is over 30 years old.

 

Craig

24 minutes ago, Pfeil said:

Start over.

"Once the car has left the lot and is on the new owner's property, he cannot be forced to return it to the dealer, and the dealer can't sign off and reclaim his part and labor refund from GM, and therefore, won't pop it in the mail."

  More clearer to you. No dealer is going to hand off a warranty or warranty parts to a customer. He wouldn't be able to make a claim, and if he fudged the warranty, add a ghost tech, and tried to submit and was found out, he could loose the franchise and be in trouble with the fed. Way too much to risk here.

  Also if a customer received a notice, especially a notice that has something to do with safety ( like brakes ) and the customer ignores it and something happens that can be attributed to the brakes or some safety item that contributed to a accident, it means he is involved or implicated because of neglect.  

You repeated what I said.

 

Craig

[padgett]

Several times I've had a recall performed on older cars (mostly Fieros). Most recent was the airbag recall on a 2006 Crossfire that was over 12 at the time. Was also the most fouled up as the Chrysler dealer did not pull the negative battery terminal first which triggered a SRS code and they did not have the right scan tool to turn off. Had to send it to a Mercedes dealer who wanted no part of it.

[Ed Luddy]

Here's a rare Canadian only Pontiac. It's a 1968 Grande Parisienne with a factory installed 396/325 hp engine. Oshawa Ontario built and documented.

The USA equivalent was the Grand Prix that changed to a totally different body for that year.

[Ed Luddy]

[Pfeil]

26 minutes ago, Ed Luddy said:

Here's a rare Canadian only Pontiac. It's a 1968 Grande Parisienne with a factory installed 396/325 hp engine. Oshawa Ontario built and documented.

The USA equivalent was the Grand Prix that changed to a totally different body for that year.

The car above is based on either a Catalina or 7" longer Bonneville. It sure looks funny on that narrow chevy suspension

The U.S. spec. 1968 Grand Prix is based on the Catalina body, but has a different roof with a concave rear backlite.

Below is a 68 G/P "Wide Track, note the rear window and the hideaway headlamps;

The car that you are referring as the all new G/P is the 1969 model below. it's based on the "A" body with a stretch in wheelbase it's called the "G" body.

 

 

[TAKerry]

I was under the impression that the Canadian Pontiacs were mostly Chevy, that car does bear a remarkable resemblance to an Impala.

[Pfeil]

45 minutes ago, TAKerry said:

I was under the impression that the Canadian Pontiacs were mostly Chevy, that car does bear a remarkable resemblance to an Impala.

That car? which car are you referring to?

[playswithbrass]

So in 25 years time people will totally rave about my 2021 Chevy Equinox when I bring it to a car show? 

[TAKerry]

7 hours ago, Pfeil said:

That car? which car are you referring to?

Sorry referring back to Ed Luddys post about the 68 Parisienne

[Pfeil]

12 hours ago, Pfeil said:

That car? which car are you referring to?

Thank you TA Kerry, The Parisienne Below;

 

And a 68 Pontiac Catalina below;

 

A 68 Impala below;

 

The interesting part is the Canadian Pontiac is sitting on the narrow track Chevrolet frame, suspension, steering and Powertrain.

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by Pfeil (see edit history)

[ericmac]

On 4/7/2021 at 1:51 AM, Billy Kingsley said:

I've said this before and I'm sure I'll say it again, but if you want younger people to get involved, stop insulting cars post WWII. 

 

The majority of any hobby is rekindling fond memories of youth, reminiscing.  For people in my generation that's 70s through 90s cars. 

 

When we get comments about it being "simply a used car" or "should be in the parking lot" it tells us in no uncertain terms: you are not wanted here. So, of course we aren't going to join your club or attend your events. 

 

I have had that happen on the AACA facebook group. Put me off the club for literally years. I only gave a second chance to the club because, despite attending 25-30 car shows and cruises a year, I still wanted more car stuff in my life. This forum seemed active and wasn't about chopping every identifying feature off of a car. So I'm decided to give it a try...and I'm still here. 

If you ever get near where I am showing a car, or touring, I would be glad to have you ride along. We can talk cars and models new and old!

[Billy Kingsley]

3 hours ago, ericmac said:

If you ever get near where I am showing a car, or touring, I would be glad to have you ride along. We can talk cars and models new and old!

 

Thank you Eric! 

[Ed Luddy]

On 5/26/2021 at 8:46 AM, TAKerry said:

I was under the impression that the Canadian Pontiacs were mostly Chevy, that car does bear a remarkable resemblance to an Impala.

Full Chevrolet "narrow track" chassis, Pontiac body shell. The 65- 67 USA Grand Prix and Canadian Grande Parisienne  used the same body, different chassis. 68 Canadian cars used the same body as the 67's. The 1968 USA built Grand Prix cars used the different backlight, bumper and trim. John DeLorean hated them by the way. Then the 1969 GP became a separate model coupe on both sides of the Ambassador Bridge! 

[Ed Luddy]

On 5/25/2021 at 8:20 PM, Pfeil said:

The car above is based on either a Catalina or 7" longer Bonneville. It sure looks funny on that narrow chevy suspension

The U.S. spec. 1968 Grand Prix is based on the Catalina body, but has a different roof with a concave rear backlite.

Below is a 68 G/P "Wide Track, note the rear window and the hideaway headlamps;

The car that you are referring as the all new G/P is the 1969 model below. it's based on the "A" body with a stretch in wheelbase it's called the "G" body.

 

 

 

Edited May 28, 2021 by Ed Luddy
clarity (see edit history)

[Ed Luddy]

Note the above 1968 Grande Parisienne rear roof, trunk, bumper and tail lights compared to the USA Grand Prix.

[Ed Luddy]

The 1965-68 Canadian Parisienne uses the Catalina body shell, not the longer Bonneville

[Ed Luddy]

This is a US Wide Track Bonneville I drove yesterday and today to check over for a friend of mine. Much different car than the 1966 Canadian Grand Parisienne. These are a longer car, more akin to a Buick/ Olds.

[Pfeil]

37 minutes ago, Ed Luddy said:

Note the above 1968 Grande Parisienne rear roof, trunk, bumper and tail lights compared to the USA Grand Prix.

 

Yes they are different as I said before.

 1968 Catalina

[Pfeil]

41 minutes ago, Ed Luddy said:

Note the above 1968 Grande Parisienne rear roof, trunk, bumper and tail lights compared to the USA Grand Prix.

Yes different.