Need help! Rollston Duesenberg body identification for restoration.

[what is it?]

Hello everyone here. My good friend is in dire need of help and any and all information would be needed!
The short version first is that he has a circa 29/30 Rollston towncar body #327 for a Duesenberg that is in the process of restoration and now that the wood work is all done we are stuck as we don't have any clear information on what chassis the body came off of! So he can't proceed with the restoration until we have concrete proof! Half the problem is, is that he's not a millionaire or billionaire so we don't have much for connections let alone people willing to talk to us and what not. So now at this point we have no choice but to just try asking everywhere we can think of for help and info.

Okay so now the long version for some context on how we got the body and how we know it has to be from a Duesenberg. So first off my name is Jared and my friends name is Troy. He doesn't do social media or forums so that's why I'm posting that on his behalf, but I am trying to get him to use them more. So anyways he got the car by accident in that he bought what was supposed to have been a Packard that turns out wasn't a Packard and what i mean by that is last July there was an estate auction in Augusta WI that had where supposed to have been 2 1931 Packards. one being the 7 passenger rollston towncar and the other one being a 7 passenger sedan that was meant to used as a parts car for the towncar. and there were several other cars that i wanted to buy which i did.

There was a post about the auction posted here on the forum:

So I knew there was no way that i would have been able to afford the 2 31 Packards so i told my friend Troy about the auction and he loves large prewar cars and has restored them before. So we went and i got the 3 i wanted and then came up the packards and is was just Troy and 2 phone bidders, and well he beat both of them and won both cars!

 

So after we got all or cars and parts back to our homes, Troy right away set about what to do to get the towncar restored. So just 2 weeks later he drove to the Packard Nationals to search for parts and information. Well its a crazy small world sometimes as he ended up meeting both phone bidders that he was up against. So after talking for awhile the one thing Troy was going to need a lot of help with was the towncar needed a lot and i mean A LOT of wood work and it didn't help that it was a total basket case. We do metal and chassis work really good but not so much when it comes to wood. So the told Troy about a old timer that was also at the show whom is really really good at restoring prewar coach built cars. A guy that I'm sure some of you may know by the name of Charlie. So Troy talked to Charlie and asked if he would be able to do the woodwork, and he said he could. So 2 weeks later Charlie shows up and we loaded the body up and took it to his shop.
And so this is were things drastically changed for us..... 5 days later Troy gets a phone call from Charlie telling us he has bad news and good news. the bad being the body does not fit the 845 chassis at all and is not from a Packard chassis of any type. the good news though is that he was 99.9% sure it was from a Duesenberg! We about fell over when he told us that as how could that even be!? Well for those who don't know Charlie is one of the biggest restorers of Duesenbergs. Heck he even has a couple at his shop now and not only that he reproduces just about every part there is for a Duesenberg. Anyways he has one of the Duesenberg body work tables from one of the coach builders from back in the day and all the body mount bolt holes lined up with his Duesenberg table. He also found the Rollston body number #327 all over the place as he started disassembling the woodwork. stamped in the wood as well as in the hardware like the door latches and such. So then 2 weeks later both Troy and I then go to the Cord/Auburn/Duesenberg show on labor day weekend to try and find out what we could....... while we found some basic information and got in contact with some people we couldn't find any info in the archives that say anything about Rollston #327 because well Duesenberg never had that information to begin with and we heard that the descendants may have information on every body produced but we have not been able to get a hold of anyone.
So anyways finally a few weeks ago Charlie finished the body and its now back in Troys garage and damn does it look awesome!!! But now like i mentioned at the beginning he's stuck and can't go no farther..... Now for the what little we know about who owned the car before Troy. The guy estate whom had the auction was named Al Finseth. Now other than being an avid Franklin and Packard collector He's not to important as he had just bought the towncar and the seven pass sedan just 5 years well now 6 years before from another Packard collector that lived near by named............ crud i cant remember...(I will add it if we can find it) He was a school teacher who was also a car collector who was from Chicago and moved up here in wisconsin back in the early 70's i think, and he brought several parkards including this body with him as far as we can tell. (the funny thing about it is this retired teacher guy had and estate auction in 2014 that Troy and I went to as well! but all the nice cars including these two were sold before that so we didnt know about it then so it funny it went full circle 5 years later.

So this point are best guess is either the body was taken off a long time ago by Duesenberg and car was rebodied or whatever and this body put in storage or sold or was from a car that resided in the chicago area. towncar bodies were worthless even on a duesenberg back then so we figure it must have traded hands several times until someone in the 50's got it and started turning it into a Packard. they crudely  rigged up more wood to the body rails to make it fit a packard frame and then scabbed in a packard firewall into the cowl and used crude fiberglass and paint to cover up the work done. and that's why everyone thought it was a packard. and the time i thought it was really strange that the firewall was still but the rest of the cowl and body was aluminum and so it makes sense that someone stuck that in there especially since a duesenberg firewall is cast aluminum.
Also a little bit more on the restoration work that Charlie did for troy. like i said he makes a lot of Duesenberg parts and has abunch of templates and all that jazz. anyways he used one of the other duesenbergs firewall and set it in #327's cowl and it fit perfectly and he grabbed a complete wooden Duesenberg dash template and it fit perfectly into the dash and connected to the firewall. and finally later when i was fitting the rollston V windshield frame he cleaned the old gasket material off the bottom a revealed not only the stamping #327 which matches it to the body but stamped next to it  was the word ''DUES.'' which would have to be short for Duesenberg!

So now you pretty much see the pinch we are in! We need to know what chassis this came off of!!! and for the record even if somehow this body from something else (which at this point we cant possibly see how) Troy would just proceed to restore is externally as a Duesenberg as well as interior as well as chassis and then use a different period correct drive train, such as one from a cadillac v16.

So please any help would be greatly appreciated!!!

 

Edited October 4, 2020 by what is it? (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Shouldn’t be hard to figure out if it was ever on a J. Fred Roe’s book would narrow it down to a particular chassis and engine number. Rudy’s son was alive a few years ago and I was told last week was still alive. Also, the records are intact but I can’t remember where they are deposited. The town car was the most common body Rollston built on the J chassis. Any time post WWII it could have been removed and swapped out for new coach work or a different open chassis. I know of a Cadillac with a very similar looking body, and while large and impressive the lines are rather heavy and vertical. I can attest to the great construction Rollston used in their cars..........we have a car with 26,000 original miles on it, the body has never been off the frame, and the doors close and are aligned like it was built yesterday.  I sent a few photos and some comments off to Randy, and he usually responds in less than a day. 
 

PS- windshield hardware is definitely Rollston..........and I think I still have a set of exterior door handles for a similar bodied Rollston up north in my garage that I bought at Hershey twenty years ago. Do you have the handles? Can you post a photo of them and any other hardware......it will help narrow down the car. I don’t have my books at home, so I can’t look up anything till the morning.

 

One last comment.......keep all the old wood. It’s too bad it was totally replaced, as all new wood always affects value today. Not having all the old wood could cause questions that wouldn’t be asked if it was all available for inspection.

Edited October 4, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[what is it?]

sorry no we dont have the handles Troy was planning on having Charlie make a set but if you have the correct set hed buy them in a heartbeat! and thank you for your response!

[edinmass]

I’ll be up north in about a month, and I will check my box of handles then. Have you run this by any of the regular suspects? Also, if you don’t have the original wood sills, unmodified and intact, it’s going to hurt the value and story.

 

Question.....who is Charlie? We have several J’s in the collection and his first name only doesn’t ring a bell.

Edited October 4, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[what is it?]

I think Charlie still has all the wood. I told Troy he should get it all back.

Edited October 4, 2020 by what is it? (see edit history)

[edinmass]

PM sent.

[alsancle]

Looks like this car:   https://theoldmotor.com/?p=39263

 

 

Would be worthwhile to put back on a real chassis and replace some of those more recent rebody attempts.

[what is it?]

close but the belt line is different so its not that particular car.

[1937hd45]

Great old photo!

 

Bob 

Edited October 5, 2020 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[Walt G]

I wonder if the two bodies were the ones that a friend from the Franklin Club named Al Finseth owned. I have some correspondence from him on the bodies someplace but all that took place 25-35 years ago. He and I spoke often for many hours about the Packards and bodies he was trying to put all together. May be a totally different story but for some reason this all seems to be so similar.

[what is it?]

yes as mentioned Troy got them from Al's estate auction.

[edinmass]

Those are the door handles I have up north........if I didn’t sell them. They were marked LeBaron......but I knew they looked like a Rollston design. I think they are German silver instead of chrome if memory serves me.

[edinmass]

I agree the car in the photo is basically the same....but with minor differences.......which was typical of Rollston. Just like I posted above.

Edited October 5, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[what is it?]

bumping up to see if anyone new would have any input. We still havent been able to uncover much yet.

[John_Mereness]

Problem here is this is probably a Randy Ema question (among a few others who have seen most of the existing cars) and you need to be on ACD Club website in the Duesenberg section - which Randy helps moderate. 

[60FlatTop]

On 10/4/2020 at 9:45 PM, Walt G said:

I have some correspondence from him on the bodies someplace but all that took place 25-35 years ago.

 

I don't understand that. I took my 35 year old car to a meet and the old guys gave me the feeling the paint hadn't dried yet. Wouldn't it be lying just to the right of your monitor?

[edinmass]

It’s a great body, regardless of what chassis it was ever placed on first. The issue right now is finding Rudy’s son, and getting him to answer the phone. Ultimately was it on a J new or something else? Hard to believe that no one has a photo of the exact car in the era..........it was just too rare and expensive of a body not to have been photographed.......especially since the 50’s. I have seen similar things like this pop up over the years with people dreaming about some fantastic story and can’t see the forest for the trees. I think the current owner is very reasonable and just wants the correct answer........he is searching for the truth..........and will run with it however it ends up. That said, my guess is there is scholarship and knowledge on this thing lurking in the background because they are afraid of a bad reaction by the owner.......I am sure that won’t happen. If anyone knows they story send it to them or me........let’s get this body on the correct chassis.......weather it’s a J, Packard, Chrysler, or some other obscure possibility. Best, Ed

Edited November 12, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

As mentioned in another post about this car, it appears the body is from a 1928 Packard 443, identical to this car.

[Owen_Dyneto]

Similar Rollston body mounted on a 1934 Eight 1101 chassis.  

[ericmac]

I would not deny a place in my garage to either of the Packards in the photographs above! Both look spectacular though I sort of lean toward the 28 as it appears more integrated on the older chassis.

[Walt G]

Jim Cox restored the maroon 443 of 1928 for Tom Kerr decades ago, I was there during the process at Jim's shop in Matamoras, Pa. and Jim, Tom and I discussed the car many times as did Jim's wife Beverly ( Rae Kimes). It was a cover story car I believe for the CCCA magazine , that club may be able to tell you what issue , I was a regular contributor to CCCA publications at one time for over 3 decades before their prevailing attitude made me decide to leave when the club President at the time sent word that I should resign from the national board because I couldn't attend board meetings in person ( all due to necessary open heart surgery ) . Then the pandemic happened and their board meetings went to zoom , on line meetings.

[Restorer32]

Many, many years ago, I'm talking early 1970's, there was a decrepit Dues town car body for sale in the old Blue Field at Hershey. Just a body, no chassis.  Could this be the same body?

[West Peterson]

There is a compelling argument that the body came off of a 1928 Packard chassis.

1. Wheelbase of 443 Packard is the same as the short wheelbase Duesenberg

2. The design is a perfect match for the maroon Packard above, and the body lines are normal for a 1928 Packard.

3. The Rollston design is the older version as found on the maroon Packard above, and by the time the Duesenberg J was introduced, the design had changed slightly.

 

[1937hd45]

2 hours ago, West Peterson said:

There is a compelling argument that the body came off of a 1928 Packard chassis.

1. Wheelbase of 443 Packard is the same as the short wheelbase Duesenberg

2. The design is a perfect match for the maroon Packard above, and the body lines are normal for a 1928 Packard.

3. The Rollston design is the older version as found on the maroon Packard above, and by the time the Duesenberg J was introduced, the design had changed slightly.

 

I have no knowledge of either, but wouldn't the cowl have to be changed to make the Packard to J Duesenberg switch? 

 

Bob 

[Walt G]

Bob

I think that cowl  switch was what I was discussing with Al Finseth at the time he owned all of it decades ago . It was a long long ongoing project for him - new wood in the body, chassis restoration etc. We had many phone conversations, and he sent letters as well, that may be here still someplace.

Walt

[West Peterson]

I think just the firewall would have to be switched.

 

[alsancle]

18 minutes ago, West Peterson said:

I think just the firewall would have to be switched.

 

The shape of the cowl is different.  A model J has pronounced point that leads into the hood hinge.

[wayne sheldon]

44 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said:

I have no knowledge of either, but wouldn't the cowl have to be changed to make the Packard to J Duesenberg switch? 

 

Bob 

 

In the long narrative, it is mentioned that when actual restoration work was being done to the cowl, there was fiberglass and other sloppy patchwork previously done to make the Packard firewall fit.

[West Peterson]

22 minutes ago, alsancle said:

The shape of the cowl is different.  A model J has pronounced point that leads into the hood hinge.

 

Also, based on the photos above, no peak exists on the cowl.

[what is it?]

thanks for the input. its been awhile since i been on. we appreciate the help.