1937 Cadillac 70 rehab

[r1lark]

Eric, it sure is a great looking car! 

[ericmac]

50 minutes ago, r1lark said:

Eric, it sure is a great looking car! 

Thank you! I definitely like the lines on the '37 Cadillacs; that was one of the main reasons I was attracted to this car in particular. I  also liked the color combination.  In general,  it is really difficult to get excited about a car that lacks visual appeal. I will keep everyone posted on my progress!

[edinmass]

I just found this thread......great car. I would run the evapo rust in the car straight.........and heat cycle it several times a day. Watch out for freezing this time of year. Having sat so long I would probably do the evapo treatment twice. First right away, until there is danger of freeze. Then I would drain it down, flush and fill with water several times, then put antifreeze in it for the winter. In spring, I would do the same thing all over again. I ran it for 8 months in my 1932 Pierce coupe........looked like the internals were shot blasted clean........it was that clean. Take your time, sort each system to 100 percent. If you want a good tour car, it’s worth the time to do good work......that way you don’t end up on the hook. Pull the fuel tank........just do it, and have it cleaned. Making the coolant, fuel, and electrical systems perfect is what makes for an enjoyable driving car. Steering and brakes come next. Car looks like the kind I like to find.........decent cosmetics without having to throw down for a 100 point car. If it were mine, I would source all the correct under hood items......and put them on the shelf. In the event you ever need to do major engine work, you can go back to stock without having to chase things down fast.....which always saves money. More photos and a drive report please. Car make my rating of .....three thumbs up! 👍👍👍

[Walt G]

Just looking at this thread again after some time- wonderful to read the progress and I totally agree a great looking car. All the issues mentioned I saw happen 45 years ago to a similar car here on long island that was a cream yellow color- same year, same body style. Excellent car but had the engine issues mentioned. I enjoy and take pride in owning a well sorted car that has great cosmetics BUT for me the greatest pleasure is in driving the cars, that way you also share it with everyone who sees you drive by, maybe makes them feel good if they have had a bad day.

[ericmac]

My friend (and fellow AACA member) Mark Eyre had a mini car show today. 

[ericmac]

Responding to Ed, Wayne Walt and others, I have been chipping away at all the systems.  The car needed work everywhere: brakes, fuel system,  electrical system,  cooling system,  exhaust system and...it is now running and driving well. I did exactly what Ed suggested and dropped the gas tank...after draining 10-15 gallons of the most foul smelling gas I have ever smelled.  I had Gas Tank Renu completely restore the tank . I 

[TexRiv_63]

I also just discovered this thread, what a beautiful car. Great that it is running and driving so quickly, looking forward to the rest of the story.

[harvey b]

Great looking car,you are lucky to find one like that,I have one too,only mine is a 60 series,the same but completely different😉.I restored mine 12 years ago,it was forgotten project when i got it,brought it home in boxes,they are a great driving car,it amazes me how it will keep up to traffic,must have been something when they were new.Mine is all original,even has the original motor,all numbers match?. Also have a 38 90 series,it is a unrestored original,it runs and drives as well,it does handle better then the 37,it is a V16 car,no plans to restore it,just want to try and preserve it for now.Harvey

[ericmac]

7 hours ago, harvey b said:

Great looking car,you are lucky to find one like that,I have one too,only mine is a 60 series,the same but completely different😉.I restored mine 12 years ago,it was forgotten project when i got it,brought it home in boxes,they are a great driving car,it amazes me how it will keep up to traffic,must have been something when they were new.Mine is all original,even has the original motor,all numbers match?. Also have a 38 90 series,it is a unrestored original,it runs and drives as well,it does handle better then the 37,it is a V16 car,no plans to restore it,just want to try and preserve it for now.Harvey

Harvey, those ar a couple of great cars. I especially like the 60 Series. have driven mine several times but clearly have work to do with the electrical system,  i.e. the lights aren't working consistently.  I think it's a ground issue but greatly limits my opportunity to drive it.  I agree with the comments about the ability to keep up with modern traffic.  The car is really,  really competent on the road.

[harvey b]

Its possible the wiring issue is related to the headlight switch,as they have the 3 settings?,make sure the rod is pulled out to the spot you want,it is possible for it to be "stuck" between 2 of them.Play around with that on the switch and see if that helps.The switch is a one year only item🤑,they do pop up on ebay from time to time.if yours has the original wiring it could be shorting someplace?,it is really delicate,so be careful if you dig into it. Harvey

[ericmac]

On 11/19/2020 at 7:18 AM, harvey b said:

Its possible the wiring issue is related to the headlight switch,as they have the 3 settings?,make sure the rod is pulled out to the spot you want,it is possible for it to be "stuck" between 2 of them.Play around with that on the switch and see if that helps.The switch is a one year only item🤑,they do pop up on ebay from time to time.if yours has the original wiring it could be shorting someplace?,it is really delicate,so be careful if you dig into it. Harvey

That's good advice.  The taillights are on all the time so you may be onto something when you mention the switch shorting out. Do you know if they are rebuildable?

[ericmac]

On 9/23/2020 at 10:20 PM, Jeff Perkins / Mn said:

You had a few of us on the MTFCA forum wondering what you had your eyes on when you were selling the ‘26 T. Congratulations on finding a very interesting car. Looking forward to your progress reports recommissioning this special car.

I am very late responding to this part of the post. Selling the '26 Touring was painful. As several people noted, there are a lot of good Ts out there but very few great Ts. Mine was one of the great ones.  So why sell it?

First, I made the decision when I had just turned 55 and decided if I wanted a Full Classic convertible I'd better get on with it.  I couldn't afford to do that without clearing some cars out in order to raise the money. 

Second, if you've never driven a '26 Touring,  know this; they are cars for guys 5'8" and under 165 lbs. I'm 5'11" (and all legs) and weigh 210. Three years ago I had bilateral partial knee replacement surgery.  Height, weight and bad knees are a terrible combination in a '26 Touring.  The short story is the damn thing was a torture chamber to drive.  The Cadillac...well, it's a Cadillac.  

[ericmac]

On 9/23/2020 at 10:20 PM, Jeff Perkins / Mn said:

You had a few of us on the MTFCA forum wondering what you had your eyes on when you were selling the ‘26 T. Congratulations on finding a very interesting car. Looking forward to your progress reports recommissioning this special car.

I am very late responding to this part of the post. Selling the '26 Touring was painful. As several people noted, there are a lot of good Ts out there but very few great Ts. Mine was one of the great ones.  So why sell it?

First, I made the decision when I had just turned 55 and decided if I wanted a Full Classic convertible I'd better get on with it.  I couldn't afford to do that without clearing some cars out in order to raise the money. 

Second, if you've never driven a '26 Touring,  know this; they are cars for guys 5'8" and under 165 lbs. I'm 5'11" (and all legs) and weigh 210. Three years ago I had bilateral partial knee replacement surgery.  Height, weight and bad knees are a terrible combination in a '26 Touring.  The short story is the damn thing was a torture chamber to drive.  The Cadillac...well, it's a Cadillac.  

[harvey b]

I dont know if the switches are rebuildable?.They are a pain to work on,they have 12 or 13 wires on them and they all have a specific place to go.It is harder with the original wiring too,as it is not color coded like new cars,it all looks the same🥵.They have a wonky type of connecter where the wires join at the taillite harness too,check that first.There is one on ebay,here is the link for it,not mine just one i seen. https://www.ebay.com/itm/1937-CADILLAC-LASALLE-ORIGINAL-HEADLIGHT-SWITCH-PARKING-INTERIOR-DASH-LAMPS/313239593209?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649      Good Luck  

[ericmac]

2 hours ago, harvey b said:

I dont know if the switches are rebuildable?.They are a pain to work on,they have 12 or 13 wires on them and they all have a specific place to go.It is harder with the original wiring too,as it is not color coded like new cars,it all looks the same🥵.They have a wonky type of connecter where the wires join at the taillite harness too,check that first.There is one on ebay,here is the link for it,not mine just one i seen. https://www.ebay.com/itm/1937-CADILLAC-LASALLE-ORIGINAL-HEADLIGHT-SWITCH-PARKING-INTERIOR-DASH-LAMPS/313239593209?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649      Good Luck  

Thank you for pointing the listing.  I went ahead and bought it.  I am sort of looking forward to sorting out the puzzle. 

[ericmac]

Here is the update on the car.  I discovered some of the drivability problems that seemed to be related to fuel.  I pulled the carburetor and sure enough the float was defective and had sunk. No wonder it was running rich. A re-rebuilt carburetor later and presto,  the car ran great. Problem solved.

Tuesday, I drove the car to work then picked up my girls at home for a daddy daughter ride. My youngest (9) promptly announced this is her favorite car in our small collection.  Naturally, on cue, the car immediately sputtered and died. Again.

So now what? Several people have described similar events with similar cars, always pointing to the coil. I went ahead and ordered a new one and installed it tonight.  Right now the car will fire and run. I'm going to get it hot again and have my oldest follow me around the neighborhood tomorrow in his truck and we'll see how long it will run. 

An important piece of information is the car now has a Pettonics ignition system that replaced the original point and condenser system.  Candidly,  I'm not sold and if a couple test miles fail I intend to switch back to the original system  

As I mentioned in another thread here, it sure looks great. 

[Matt Harwood]

Glad you're able to get out and start enjoying the Cadillac. I think you're on the right track that your problem is electrical and the coils are an easy place to start. However--and you'll get this advice from others beyond me--I think the Pertronix is also a suspect. They say their systems will work on 6 volt cars, but I think they're just 12V systems repackaged. On some 6V cars they work, on others they don't, but if operating voltage drops below 6V it causes problems with their electronic brains. Depending on how it's wired, it may not be getting full voltage when the engine (and electrical system) gets hot--many guys just wire their Pertronix units to the coil for 6V power, which is a mistake. Heat soak, the coil, and the Pertronix might all be conspiring against you. Go back to points and condenser, a new coil, and make sure your wires are in good condition and--duh--good grounds, and the I bet the problem is solved.

 

Just about time to put the top down, right? Have fun, great car!

[ericmac]

6 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

Glad you're able to get out and start enjoying the Cadillac. I think you're on the right track that your problem is electrical and the coils are an easy place to start. However--and you'll get this advice from others beyond me--I think the Pertronix is also a suspect. They say their systems will work on 6 volt cars, but I think they're just 12V systems repackaged. On some 6V cars they work, on others they don't, but if operating voltage drops below 6V it causes problems with their electronic brains. Depending on how it's wired, it may not be getting full voltage when the engine (and electrical system) gets hot--many guys just wire their Pertronix units to the coil for 6V power, which is a mistake. Heat soak, the coil, and the Pertronix might all be conspiring against you. Go back to points and condenser, a new coil, and make sure your wires are in good condition and--duh--good grounds, and the I bet the problem is solved.

 

Just about time to put the top down, right? Have fun, great car!

Hi Matt. I appreciate the advice.  You have exactly identified what I am thinking.  I am going to try what is in there with the new coil but otherwise will go back to the points and condenser system.  

I an betting against fuel system problems.  After reading your adventures with the Lincoln and Ed's experiences with the White I decided to follow both of your lead and avoid any, and all, shortcuts with the fuel system.  So, its completely new or refurbished from the tank to the carburetor. As such it seems hard to imagine that was the culprit. 

Yes, it is almost time to take a crack at putting down the top.

[ericmac]

While the coil certainly is a likely culprit,  complicit in the crime of unreliability,  I think I have identified the mastermind. This is a photo of the inside of my distributor with the Petronix installed. Take a look at the ground wire,  that just happens to be bare metal against an installation screw.  No way the car was going to run reliably like that. Back to factory stock soon. I have to thank edinmass for convincing me to go the extra mile and pull the distributor.  Likely I never would have found the problem without doing that. 

Edited April 15, 2021 by ericmac
Clarification (see edit history)

[Bleach]

On 11/18/2020 at 9:39 AM, harvey b said:

 

 

 

I love the look of the '38-'40 V16's. I had always wanted one but they are hard to find and too expensive. I found one locally many years ago barely affordably priced but it had a cracked block. Needless to say after even looking for someone who could possibly repair it, I passed. There was no way to find out if the block could have been saved before buying it. I don't know how seriously they can crack or what areas the cracks usually involve.

[Matt Harwood]

1 hour ago, Bleach said:

 

I love the look of the '38-'40 V16's. I had always wanted one but they are hard to find and too expensive. I found one locally many years ago barely affordably priced but it had a cracked block. Needless to say after even looking for someone who could possibly repair it, I passed. There was no way to find out if the block could have been saved before buying it. I don't know how seriously they can crack or what areas the cracks usually involve.

 

"Cracked block" combined with "V12" and/or "V16" are some of the most financially terrifying words in the English language.

[Bleach]

22 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

"Cracked block" combined with "V12" and/or "V16" are some of the most financially terrifying words in the English language.

Sorry to sidetrack the thread. Yeah, I got that impression investigating all the different repair methods and in most cases a replacement block would have been the most reliable alternative.

[ericmac]

No problem with the sidetrack.  I have the belief that Matt Harwood is correct. In fact, cracked block in connection with nearly any CCCA car is going to cost...and big time.

[ericmac]

I am going to run a cooling system full of evaporust through the car following the suggestion of several of you. I also took up the loan of a pair of cooling system screens thanks to forum member Studelite (thanks Scott). I screened out a lot of rust after only about 100 miles of driving.  I plan to do this every time the car goes 75-100 miles.slowly it is getting sorted out. I decided to apply to Motor Muster in Greenfield Village in June so I am keeping my fingers crossed that it will be accepted. In case you look really closely you can see I put in the screen pictured upside down.  That has been fixed.

Edited April 23, 2021 by ericmac (see edit history)

[ericmac]

I have a persistent problem with running the engine and drivability What it is doing is starting slowly (reluctantly) but it does fire. Once started, it idles well but at higher RPMs stumbles and acts like it's starving for gas. On the road,  it's okay when cool but runs worse once warmed up. I've had three different coils in it, have bypassed the electric fuel pump, tried the cold rag trick on the fuel lines to try to avoid vapor lock, the distributor has been rebuilt, mechanical fuel pump rebuilt, carb rebuilt twice, all new spark plugs. One thing that occurs to me that I have not done is to bypass the fuel filter. Now...my admission of shame. I'm not sure how one adjusts the carb float, nor am I sure which direction to adjust, even if I did know how the adjustment is made. Any thoughts? Ed would probably have had this sorted in 45 minutes.  Alas, I am not Ed.

[Matt Harwood]

It's probably not a float adjustment. The two brass screws on the base of the carburetor are for idle and low speed, but at higher speeds the high-speed jets take over. It's possible that your jets are too small, but I'm not convinced it's not ignition. Different coils may have ruled out that particular issue, but how about the condenser? Plug gaps too wide (I'd go somewhere around .022")? Plug wires good? Cap not broken or arcing? Good ground from block to frame near battery ground? The Stromberg AAVs are pretty forgiving and easy to tune so it's probably not anything serious there. You could try fattening up the mixture a bit to see if the low-to-high speed transition improves, but I'm betting that's not the issue. Reconnect the electric pump and run it with the mechanical pump to rule out starvation or a weak diaphragm.

 

This little stuff is frustrating, but by doing basic troubleshooting, you not only eventually fix it but improve a whole bunch of other stuff to make the car more reliable. That's why I enjoy the sorting process so much. Eventually everything's fixed!

[alsancle]

Somebody much smarter than me once said that 90% of all fuel issues are ignition.   So what Matt said.

[ericmac]

7 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

It's probably not a float adjustment. The two brass screws on the base of the carburetor are for idle and low speed, but at higher speeds the high-speed jets take over. It's possible that your jets are too small, but I'm not convinced it's not ignition. Different coils may have ruled out that particular issue, but how about the condenser? Plug gaps too wide (I'd go somewhere around .022")? Plug wires good? Cap not broken or arcing? Good ground from block to frame near battery ground? The Stromberg AAVs are pretty forgiving and easy to tune so it's probably not anything serious there. You could try fattening up the mixture a bit to see if the low-to-high speed transition improves, but I'm betting that's not the issue. Reconnect the electric pump and run it with the mechanical pump to rule out starvation or a weak diaphragm.

 

This little stuff is frustrating, but by doing basic troubleshooting, you not only eventually fix it but improve a whole bunch of other stuff to make the car more reliable. That's why I enjoy the sorting process so much. Eventually everything's fixed!

That helps. I am a little under the gun with this one as I am planning to take the car to Motor Muster at Greenfield Village next weekend.  Never let a deadline go by without a project in the way, right?

[ericmac]

I got the car to Greenfield Village and drove it all over the place. With a bit of effort I was able to get it back on the trailer, home, around the neighborhood and back into the garage. Now, every time I attempt to start it I get about 10-12 revolutions and the batteries are dead. Now keep in mind, we're talking about a pair of heavy duty Farm and Fleet, 6 volts, wired in series, with a combined cold cranking amperage of 1400. I think I may have a dead short somewhere.  I have been told it has to be the voltage regulator as it drains even when the ignition is off. I replaced the regulator but still having the same problem.  I am perplexed as BOTH batteries were replaced last September. Could I have one bad one that is draining the other?

One other important piece of information is I charged both batteries to 100% and left for a vacation.  As a precaution,  both were disconnected.  When I returned, the better of the two was at 65% charge and the worse of the two was at 10%. Doesn't seem to me that a good battery would do that in a week...especially if it's disconnected.  Anyone have any thoughts?

 

Conversely, it sure looked good at Greenfield Village. 

Edited July 12, 2021 by ericmac
Clarification (see edit history)

[edinmass]

One step at a time. Get the batteries to full charge. Load test them. Charge them again and see how long they hold..........don’t guess. Diagnose it. You can give me a buzz if you like. Ed

[neil morse]

54 minutes ago, ericmac said:

Now keep in mind, we're talking about a pair of heavy duty Farm and Fleet, 6 volts, wired in series

 

Don't you mean wired in parallel?  Otherwise, you would be running 12 volts, which I don't think is what you want to do.

[ericmac]

7 hours ago, edinmass said:

One step at a time. Get the batteries to full charge. Load test them. Charge them again and see how long they hold..........don’t guess. Diagnose it. You can give me a buzz if you like. Ed

Will do..and thanks.

[ericmac]

6 hours ago, neil morse said:

 

Don't you mean wired in parallel?  Otherwise, you would be running 12 volts, which I don't think is what you want to do.

Well...there is something I can't answer with real authority.  Obviously, I am not an electrical systems expert. I notice when it starts it spins much faster than I would expect of a 6 volt car. I will try to draw up a wiring schematic of the starting system to see if that sheds any light on the problem.  As Ed said, earlier,  I am going to try to diagnosis it instead of guessing my way through it.

[Matt Harwood]

[ericmac]

After some checking and testing I discovered my batteries, wired in parallel are defective.  One, I fully charged and allowed to sit completely disconnected on the workbench for six hours. I retested it at that time (not even under load) and it came back with a 10% charge. The other didn't fare as badly but in that same timespan, again completely disconnected,  was down to a 60% charge. Farm and Fleet sold them to me and the staff were very helpful.  They exchanged both batteries,  no charge, no questions asked. I have to say, I was impressed. 

[ericmac]

While I wish I could take credit for this I cannot. We (meaning my friend Mark Eyre) figured out what was wrong with the no power issue of the Cadillac.  Apparently, after I replaced the vacuum advance (despite Ed telling me it was fine) when I lost the screws down in the depths of the engine bay, I replaced them with screws that were 1/16 of an inch too long. This prevented the distributor from fully advancing thus no power, no acceleration and eventually loading up the car with too much gas. Duh...

This is now the third car I have struggled with as a result of a single misplaced bolt or screw. I had a problem In the power box of a '62 Lincoln I owned 30 years ago, the result of one intermittently bad ground bolt. A subsequent owner decided to "just try" replacing the bolts as a troubleshooting measure and instantly and permanently resolved the issue. My otherwise fabulous 1926 Ford Touring would sputter and die, then roar back to life with seemingly no issues. Turned out one bolt on the positive strap for battery broke in half...but not before it brazed itself into place.  As a result you could tighten the connection bolt but it had no effect on the terminal connection, yet wiggling it around to tighten it would give just enough of a connection to make me think I had fixed the problem. That was frustrating. And now this car.

As Ed and Matt have shown us, the process of dialing in and troubleshooting a car to make it reliable can be a herculean task. I'm just fortunate to have someone locally and many of you on this forum who could help me think through the problem. With a little luck I'll be back to driving it next week.

[edinmass]

The screws causing a problem like that is classic pre war car issues. Add in that I checked the distributor and had it at factory specs...........and then it gets additional service.........one wouldn’t think of a problem like that occurring. No one to blame.......a weird issue. Thing is there are probably five to ten issues like this in many cars that get only occasional use. People often can’t solve problems and sell the car or let it sit. After way too much time in a garage........you learn it’s easier to go through entires systems......every part, nut, and bolt. Stem to stern. Every car needs a through going over when it’s new to you regardless of who owned it or restored it. I know a lot of people in the hobby and there are less than ten that I have an opinion who always service and sort their cars properly. When they sell cars, I recommend them to others as a true “turn key” car.........something exceptionally rare today. I absolutely despise cars that run poorly, steer lousy, start hard, overheat, and have other anti social bad habits. I get joy out of my toys because I can jump in them without any thought of reliability or performance issues. Flat tires and running out of gas are the only thing on my mind while touring. The joy of a early car performing at its peak is something I never get tired of. Next week, for the first time I will have a chance at running a Sleeve Valve eight down the road while at near optimum conditions...........looking forward to it more than you can imagine. I expect it’s going to be a very positive experience.

Edited July 24, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Eric......the reason I told you above to take it one step ant a time and charge and check the batteries????

 

Been there and done that. Battery failure is COMMON today with units less than 12 months old. If they make it 12 months, they usually are good for six years. I’m seeing the 4-8 month battery failure several times a years now......including glass mat Opitmas. Fixing cars isn’t difficult. Having a proper diagnostic routine for each individual car and it’s platform is the challenge. In pre war cars fixing things are generally straight forward, they may be time consuming and expensive.........the trick is to not give up, be willing to pound your head against the wall, and keep going. 90 percent of the people in the hobby get beaten down by their car because they think it should be easy and inexpensive to fix. They are not. For me, I enjoy the challenge of sorting a car. The more difficult or frustrating the problem is, the bigger reward at the end. Just keep improving you car. Eventually you run out of things to do.

[ericmac]

Ed, those are very true observations.  I have a 1913 Ford Touring that I have owned, refined and sorted since I bought it 10 years ago. I have a few more steps to go but I have gone from a car that wouldn't start unless I jacked up a rear wheel to a car that is a 2 pull to start car. That's been very satisfying.  It is, by far, the most reliable antique car I have ever owned...though as noted above,  it has taken 10 years to get it there.

The problem with the Cadillac,  if I am being 100% honest, is me. I have been impatient to drive and use the car so I have pushed too hard without thinking things through.  I have to say publicly,  Ed and Matt have been more than just a little bit helpful, as have several others from this group. Without some of their advice the car likely would be little more that a source of frustration for me. Realistically, I just haven't taken the time to take a step away from the problem to see what is wrong.  

 

[edinmass]

Pushing the car too soon is a common mistake. I also know the feeling of wanting to get it on the open road. When we did the White, it was hard not to try and run it too soon because  the pandemic. We resisted and it was a good decision. 

Edited July 24, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)