Is asking for a receipt for an engine rebuild from a seller considered rude?

[John_Mereness]

Sidenote:  This car 1935 Auburn I was discussing yesterday has receipts for entire restoration:

 

A friend's 1935 Auburn is in the alignment shop (we have one of the best race car guys on the globe here locally - a fine shop with an owner that has a mind for engineering - like the math/formula side of engineering) - the friend was on the highway and it went into a death shake and he "thought they were going to die."   So, what they found already was that someone had milled the axle to get more angle on it, plus installed a 5 degree and a 7 degree shim in addition to that (looks like they could not get it right so kept adding more and more), an extra 1 1/4 of toe in., a bent front axle (how that happens I will never know), the back axle was not straight on the springs, the wheels not balanced properly, one tire does not run true, and ...  The good news is that the frame does appear straight and the steering box and ball joints/king pins/etc. are fabulous, as well as leaf springs and spring bushings.     Dad dropped off a copy of the specs and they basically have now talked through every aspect of the suspension and steering - when done the fellow should have a fine car and it will be very driven prior to its return to owner (here is the scary part - the car was restored in 1970's, the next fellow who re-restored it owned a spring shop, and the next owner spent 16K addressing suspension issues - AKA SOMEBODY SHOULD HAVE HAD THIS MORE CLOSE BY NOW).  

[ramair]

I believe the Cord without the fenders was in a episode of the you tube video from Clayton Restorations “ A Road Less Traveled”, if I remember right a older gentleman wanted to sell this Cord and Mr. Clayton pointed out some of its issues, however in the garage he had a nice Auburn and the discussion turned to a package deal.  The reason I remember it is the “window tinting” on passenger side window,

[alsancle]

On 8/21/2020 at 7:26 AM, 8E45E said:

If a seller states that he has receipts for work that was done, there is NO reason for him not to produce them upon request buy a potential purchaser.

 

Craig

 

I agree,  but isn't there a gray area where you are getting emails from Russia asking for the PDF of the 300 scanned receipts?   Maybe they are not scanned or maybe you don't want them posted all over the internet?  

 

If the buyer is not standing in front of the seller,  but if off in the internet somewhere I don't blame the seller for evaluating seriousness.    But if the buyer has traveled to see the car,  the receipts should be sitting on the front seat in a binder.

 

And just to reiterate what many of said,  no receipts,  no believe the claim.

[Ed Luddy]

On 8/20/2020 at 4:13 PM, Matt Harwood said:

I would also argue that this particular car is priced exactly like a car with no documentation.

Look at the car, listen to the engine, take it for a drive. If all's well buy it! You're buying an old car from an 88 yr old man. NOT paperwork.

[TTR]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

 

I agree,  but isn't there a gray area where you are getting emails from Russia asking for the PDF of the 300 scanned receipts?   Maybe they are not scanned or maybe you don't want them posted all over the internet?  

 

If the buyer is not standing in front of the seller,  but if off in the internet somewhere I don't blame the seller for evaluating seriousness.    But if the buyer has traveled to see the car,  the receipts should be sitting on the front seat in a binder.

 

And just to reiterate what many of said,  no receipts,  no believe the claim.

Agreed.
 

I don’t “negotiate” the price* with a (potential ?) buyer or bother producing supporting documents (detailed photos, receipts, etc.) until I’ve seen serious effort from them, either by coming to look at the subject in person, having arranged someone else to inspect it for them or something similar.

 

When in the past I’ve had something for sale and received a call which almost immediately veered into pricing questions with some idiotic phrases like “What’s the lowest you’ll take ?”, “What’s your best price for it ?”, etc , I either just hung up or stated something equally stupid like “Well, if you come right away and bring cash, I can let you have it for only little more than twice my asking price. Or if you’re really serious, but don’t have time today, just send the cash. I can wait couple of days for you to pick the car up.“

 

OTOH, I don’t broker/sell a lot of cars anymore, maybe 2-3 per year on behalf of clients or friends and usually higher value, exceptional examples of relatively rare makes/models and sell for appropriate money without a need to publicly advertise them. 

 

[playswithbrass]

There isn’t always receipts. It’s called doing things under the table. It also doesn’t mean it’s a bad job

[John_Mereness]

27 minutes ago, playswithbrass said:

There isn’t always receipts. It’s called doing things under the table. It also doesn’t mean it’s a bad job

There are a lot of retired people who help (they have restored their own cars, or retired from shops, or ...) and they usually ask for cash. 

[John_Mereness]

For those reading, the "show up model" may not be realistic anymore - if you asked for a percentage I would tell you over past 2 years perhaps 25% of the cars we sell have someone come and look (we do consignment - I end up being the trusted intermediary between both the buyer and the seller and look after everyone involved and they are buying from me based on this very fact).  The discussion gets to price pretty quick too (especially, if discussion via email, text, or phone leads to sending a file of 200 photos).  

 

That said, the bottom feeders show themselves pretty obviously and it really is not in the client's or my best interest to spend any real time with them (though happy to take their name and number and perhaps pick conversation back up somewhere down the road (or not).  The obnoxious, pushy, miserable, and ... (whatever the issue) potential buyers get cut out of the deal early on too (though happy to take their name and number and perhaps pick conversation back up somewhere down the road (or not).  Basically, there are "plenty of fish in the ocean". 

 

Last week, I saw some post on AACA forum that I could relate to where someone said "you sold it for 500.00 less than I offered you" -  The reply was along the lines of:  Not dealing with that behavior - you had your chance and .... 

 

As a sidenote:  I passed on something last week that I would have liked:  I sent a text and asked for more photos and they said call, I sent a text and asked for more photos and that I wanted to know more about what I was calling about - they said call, and I sent a text and we would have a better conversation once I looked at photos - they said call = well, they posted three crappy photos and a one sentence description and I am not going to call if I do not have enough information to have an intelligent conversation to start with.   I will find another one ("plenty of fish in the ocean" - as they say) and they can do whatever they want. 

 

As to the receipts discussion:  Never hurts to ask, just do not get your nose pushed out of joint if the answer is not what you want to hear. 

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, John_Mereness said:

There are a lot of retired people who help (they have restored their own cars, or retired from shops, or ...) and they usually ask for cash. 

 

Understood.  There are a lot of guys doing their own work too, or at least used to be.   But if you are going through a motor,  paying cash for the work or parts,  I think it would behoove you to take pictures.   Without them,  don't be surprised if most guys don't believe it.

 

On the other side of things,   As a buyer,  I've paid to have compression tests and leak downs done to prove a motor that seemed ok was actually good.  

 

 

[John_Mereness]

4 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

Understood.  There are a lot of guys doing their own work too, or at least used to be.   But if you are going through a motor,  paying cash for the work or parts,  I think it would behoove you to take pictures.   Without them,  don't be surprised if most guys don't believe it.

 

On the other side of things,   As a buyer,  I've paid to have compression tests and leak downs done to prove a motor that seemed ok was actually good.  

Me Too !!!

 

My only point is that you get a feel for when "yes" and when "no" and sometimes you are right and sometimes you are wrong.    

 

And after a nationally known person who should have known better started to cross thread a spark plug in the 1936 25/30 RR Owen Gurney Nutting Drophead (a lucky save after sweating bullets an hour and a half work) - let's just say I will probably send someone packing if they request - if I can take them out driving for an hour it is probably just fine. 

 

I re-rebuilt as good a 45K engine rebuild as 45K will ever buy you from an incredibly well known shop - it had a problem (it was no ones fault - it just was one of those things related to metal fatigue and it was a lot of damage as a result).

 

You would be amazed as to what is "not available" after someone has been rushed to the hospital and then is going into a nursing facility or has just died.

 

And a lot of people never have the wildest dream of selling something - and then unfortunately the need arises.

 

And a lot of people get "old."

 

And on the flip side of the coin is dishonesty - it is out there. 

 

 

 

 

 

[JV Puleo]

I sent the engine of my first brass car to a well known professional...someone who came highly recommended and who I know had done a few Silver Ghost engines. I later assembled a car he'd done the engine on so I know he was reasonably competent. (But I have to say that it was never quite as good as the SG's I've worked on where the engines had never been apart.) With my engine he took a number of outrageous shortcuts, including spot welding the cams to the camshaft (it was a camshaft with separate cams - a type common before WWI) so that you could no longer get it out of the crankcase because it wouldn't go through the center bearing. It seems to have been a case of "young guy, doesn't know much, car will only be used for local parades (I never do parades) etc. There are any number of excuses for doing a poor job. There were other items as well. Because I was running out of money, I brought it home and it was then I discovered this. I resolved then that I had to learn to do this myself or I'd never be satisfied...but, I once had a receipt from a highly respected engine rebuilder for the work he'd done...and it was worthless.

[TTR]

22 hours ago, playswithbrass said:

There isn’t always receipts.

Of course and seems more common than having them, but if one makes claims of their existence ...

... or any others referring to some internal/unverifiable “rebuild/restoration” work, I don’t put any weight on them.

 

I still recall when a certain celebrity status car guy apparently considering another car to his collection called me due to claims or “suggestions”, perhaps by the seller(?), that I had something to do with the restoration or work on that car years earlier and he asked if true, would I mind expanding...

Now that’s another approach to verify claims.
 

I also believe many DYI hobbyist rebuilders/restorers don’t keep/tally receipts merely for self-preservation of their self-inflicted grand illusion regarding the cost or profit effectiveness of their project. Same reason they don’t keep track of hours/days/weeks/months/years/etc. spent working on it.
 

For example, I have dear friend who right after retiring from +/-30 year corporate career, started building a vintage type race-car and once done, raced it for few seasons and eventually won few records, etc after which reached a decision to sell it “for (close to) what I have in it” and said having saved every receipt to prove the cost of building it. 
He got rather upset when I pointed out that" the build" took him nearly 15 years, half of which he probably worked on it "full-time", leased a shop space for over 5 years before building his own shop, both which he equipped with everything one would expect in a professional custom fabrication/machine shop, etc...

... just to build a one race car. 
So how much (time &) money he actually had in it ? 

 

Edited August 24, 2020 by TTR (see edit history)

[TTR]

6 hours ago, alsancle said:

...  I think it would behoove you to take pictures.   Without them,  don't be surprised if most guys don't believe it.  

Exactly.
 

While perhaps a bit OCD, I have tens of thousands (or more?) of photos of work I’ve performed over the years/decades and usually take dozens more every day. Whether I’m working on antenna, brakes, door panel, engine, fuel gauge, headliner, seat frame, trunk lock or windshield wiper drive/motor assembly, wiring, etc, everything is thoroughly photo-documented before, during and after...

 

 

Did you say your car was “fully” restored ? 
Including its 50 year old, OEM power antenna ? This one wasn’t working due to broken (nylon) mast drive cable and “frozen” motor due to lack of service & regular use. 

To me, getting everything working as good (or better ?) as originally intended is far more important and if seeing it photo-documented, way more impressive than truckloads of $50 trophies or other accolades given for assembled static display objects, many which I can't even consider no longer as cars. 

 

Or its OEM seat belts ? Here prior to final assembly/re-stitching after all cleaning, plating & etc prep was done (Note: two pieces not present in these photos, but not “missing”).

 

 

Stich pattern instructions.

Edited August 23, 2020 by TTR (see edit history)

[8E45E]

On ‎8‎/‎23‎/‎2020 at 6:23 AM, alsancle said:

 

I agree,  but isn't there a gray area where you are getting emails from Russia asking for the PDF of the 300 scanned receipts?   Maybe they are not scanned or maybe you don't want them posted all over the internet?  

 

If the buyer is not standing in front of the seller,  but if off in the internet somewhere I don't blame the seller for evaluating seriousness.    But if the buyer has traveled to see the car,  the receipts should be sitting on the front seat in a binder.

 

And just to reiterate what many of said,  no receipts,  no believe the claim.

One must really want a particular car bad enough to go all the way to Russia to go buy it!

 

Craig

[West Peterson]

On 8/20/2020 at 3:55 PM, Lebowski said:

I called the 88 year old seller of the '37 Cord (see ad in "Cars For Sale" forum) back this afternoon because I had a few more questions about the car. My first one was did he have the receipt for the $20k engine rebuild that he told me about earlier this week and also the other receipt for the transmission work that he had done in Auburn, IN by a guy in the Cord club. He got upset and told me that his word is good and he's not dishonest and I politely explained that the receipts add to the value of the car so when I decided to sell it I would have proof of the rebuild. He said he looked for them 3-4 years ago and couldn't find them but said he would try again but he was still annoyed with me. He said none of the other callers asked about receipts and insinuated that I was rude by asking for them. I've done this in the past with other old cars and never had anyone get upset. I'm sure that some of you guys have asked for receipts from sellers before. Has anyone ever gotten upset with you for asking?

 

In a nutshell... "Trust your mother, but cut the cards." Would the seller trust you enough to let you take the car home with you with the promise of paying for it next week?

[John_Mereness]

As I mentioned, owner probably could have put the car up for 67K or 75K and sold it right away - he probably though has priced it according to all the factors we have discussed and people are skeptical as a result. 

 

I have never minded anyone asking for receipts or 200 photos, but when the request is matched to a "tone" or other lines of questions that may be heading toaward negativity then I could see someone getting annoyed.  I would probably have just told you "it is what it is" and that a receipt would be nice, but car is priced accordingly and we will have to work around such - do you have any other questions.  Also, if you told me you did not want a Cord in Black and I thought you would be heading for a discount on price, I would probably reply then you should not buy a Black one then - sort of same issue.   As mentioned, there are plenty of fish in the ocean - there will be another buyer and there always is.  If you strike me as a difficult buyer then I have my seller to be concerned about - I want them to have a good experience (everyone to have a good experience for that matter). 

 

Here is an example:

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1936-cord-810-westchester/

 

A lot of good photos - I give points to an owner that tried and tried well

No receipts

The question was asked of engine or transmission work and the comment was "the prior owner built engine and trans and the current owner estate bought." 

No claims of reproduction heads (they are nice to have as originals are time bombs) or ...

Owner states they drive it within their neighborhood (and has a video doing such to back-up)

Nice paint, but "driver quality" as owner states and they did not do around lower edges of unibody/rocker panels or lip under trunk/rear valance

Partially original interior (which by the way the door panels are not exceptional, but are nicest originals I ever have seen - A HUGE PLUS IN MY BOOK)

Strikes me overall as a car always been to some degree cared for - it has that "look" about it

SUPER NICE rocker panels

Plenty of flaws, but huge lists of positives too

Wrong Carb (original included without photo or ....) and wrong horns, wrong cigar lighter, possibly missing one 1/4 lamp in headliner, and generator/regulator is suspect.

Great original Data Plate and Body Plate

Someone referenced well known Cord owner was selling - I did not recognize them, but sure if ACD active they have been in eyesight and or we have spoken. 

It's Green (but a great Cord official color) and it has a lot of green interior too (but great condition) - I waffle on this as violates my green resale rule, but ....

Unusual Upholstery pattern and material for a Westchester (sort of rare, but then also probably does little + or - for value)

Nice steering wheel, nice heater w/ nice defrost, nice radio, great dash, great horn ring, nice windwings, nice hubcaps, nice ... and ....

I would say this is exactly how a sale should come out given photos, condition, pluses and minuses, current market, what is available in what price ranges, and .....

 

 

 

[carbking]

I can easily see both the buyer's and seller's prospective.

 

I have personally done a better job with receipts on some of my vehicles than others.

 

A a buyer, it never hurts to ask for receipts or pictures. But I would not expect the seller to show the receipts until I was ready to pay. His/her word that he/she had them would be enough initially.

 

As a seller, I finally had enough of tire-kickers asking for pictures. Company policy is now: pictures are $50. each, refundable IF AND ONLY IF you purchase the item. Tell me what pictures you require, and give me your credit card number. This policy is a direct result of pictures of some extremely rare carburetors that we sent before initiating the policy showing up in wanted ads on various car forums, including this one. "Wanted - the carburetor in this picture"! The last time I tried to sell a car through Hemmings (before both the internet, and digital cameras) I received 195 requests for a complete set of pictures, mostly on postcards. Cancelled the ad, ignored the picture-collectors, and sold the car to a friend!

 

As far as receipts for work we have done, I can print a duplicate receipt for any carburetor we have ever done FOR THE ORIGINAL CUSTOMER, OR A PROVED HEIR, ONLY!

 

Personally, I feel the buyer should not be upset if there is no documentation; but the seller should not get upset if the buyer asks to have a certified, bonded mechanic perform certain tests in the presence of the seller.

 

And of course, the price, and the desire of the buyer for the car (or part) will effect what level of documentation the buyer requires.

 

Jon.

[John_Mereness]

I remember calling one of the forum members here about an X with custom coachwork - I had a client who asked me to get the car for them as seller was miserable (and I had an escrow account fully funded too) = AND HE COULD NOT HAVE BEEN MORE OF AN ARROGANT S_ _ OF A B_ _ _ _ FROM TIME PICKING UP THE PHONE (needless to say there was no deal and fast, but I did call back a week later as I thought perhaps perhaps he was drunk or had bad day - NOPE or maybe still was drunk or still having a bad day).  

 

My point is - a 2 way street and you should seek what you would expect for yourself. 

Edited August 26, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[padgett]

Always be polite and smile. Is the most infuriating thing you can do for some people. Laughter is even better.

[Guest]

Receipts prove nothing.  See this and others in the thread about "Mishaps".  If you were not there, did not know the rebuilder or have pictures of each step done the piece of paper proves nothing.

We were asked to hang a partially restored  '33 Cad 12  back together and get it running so the owner could sell it.  Engine was basically together but none of the accessories were mounted.  Our rule here at the shop is that in such situations we always remove the heads and the pan to determine what the condition of the engine actually is.  Customer did not want the heads removed because it was a "rebuilt" engine but we insisted.  Under one head we found a small handful of rat poison on top of one of the pistons.  Under the other head we found several shards of glass.  Most were way too big to have entered thru a spark plug hole. We're talking 2" square pieces of glass, 3 or 4 of them.  Now if we had fired up that engine with those pieces of glass on top of one piston it would have been exciting.  Had to be sabotage or maybe a blind mechanic dropped a wine glass and pieces of it ended up on top of a piston.  Same situation with a '21 Kissel Gold Bug.  Engine the customer bought to replace his badly cracked engine was supposedly rebuilt. Took the heads off.  Everything looked new inside including pistons, valves etc.  Customer insisted we just button up the engine and put it in his car.   We insisted on at least plastigaugeing the bearings and measuring the bores.  Customer did not want the added expense but we were adamant and he finally said OK.  Good thing he did. The new pistons were installed with no rings.  I could write a book...