Is asking for a receipt for an engine rebuild from a seller considered rude?

[Lebowski]

I called the 88 year old seller of the '37 Cord (see ad in "Cars For Sale" forum) back this afternoon because I had a few more questions about the car. My first one was did he have the receipt for the $20k engine rebuild that he told me about earlier this week and also the other receipt for the transmission work that he had done in Auburn, IN by a guy in the Cord club. He got upset and told me that his word is good and he's not dishonest and I politely explained that the receipts add to the value of the car so when I decided to sell it I would have proof of the rebuild. He said he looked for them 3-4 years ago and couldn't find them but said he would try again but he was still annoyed with me. He said none of the other callers asked about receipts and insinuated that I was rude by asking for them. I've done this in the past with other old cars and never had anyone get upset. I'm sure that some of you guys have asked for receipts from sellers before. Has anyone ever gotten upset with you for asking?

 

 

[Matt Harwood]

It's not at all inappropriate or rude to ask for relevant receipts or for documents that they've said are available. But you also have to remember that such things my not exist and to take them at their word when they say they don't have them and not take it as a sign of deception.

 

I will admit to getting annoyed with people who ask for things I don't have. Window stickers, for example. They're somewhat rare, although reproductions and auction houses make it seem like every car should still have one. So buyers ask me for an original window sticker, and I say, "No, sorry, this car doesn't have one." Then they say, "Why not?" I don't know. I wasn't there. I didn't get it with the car and say, "Meh, I don't need this," and throw it in the trash. It's not my fault it doesn't exist and was destroyed by the elements or tossed by a guy who didn't know that in 68 years his daily driver would be a collector's item. I don't know why the sticker is gone--most people didn't save them because they didn't care and didn't know that some guy in the future would act like his life depended on it. It's not there. It doesn't make the car a fraud because it doesn't exist, it's merely like most cars where its history is cloudy.

 

So give him a chance to find his receipts, but don't assume that he's hiding something or lying about the engine rebuild just because he doesn't have it. Believe it or not, there are a whole lot of people out there who are really --poor-- record-keepers, even with something like this.

 

I would also not let the lack of receipts scare me away from a car I wanted. Everything can be fixed and if you're not able to take the risk that it needs a motor, then perhaps it's the wrong car for you. On the other hand, a rebuilt motor is no guarantee of excellence, either--there are plenty of hacks out there and I'd almost rather have an engine that is "un-mess-with" as my late friend BillP used to say. Regardless of who was in there last, it is what it is and you should base your decisions on what it is right now, today.

 

Good luck.

[ejboyd5]

Absolutely correct in asking for documentation and exactly for the reason you gave - to support the value of the car if you decide to purchase it and further if in the future when you might sell it. If the seller has misplaced the receipts, that is his problem and he has no call to be upset with you for asking. Anyone current with the purchase and sale of antique vehicles should be aware of the importance of documentation and how it adds value to the vehicle.

[Matt Harwood]

I would also argue that this particular car is priced exactly like a car with no documentation.

[TerryB]

I think you have to remember the guy is 88 yrs old and may not remember where he put it.  He is from an era when most people’s claims about something was true.

[alsancle]

I think there are multiple levels to the the transaction that have to be approached incrementally.     From the buyer's side I would insist on receipts.  But from the seller's side,  he shouldn't have to provide them until the deal is just about closed. 

 

So,  cool to ask if there are receipts,  but probably cool to only ask to see them when you have made the effort to see the car.   Otherwise it just looks like you are exercising the seller.

 

For ever real buyer there are 10 guys collecting pictures.

[alsancle]

Typically,  what I have done is for the general ad show a picture or two of the receipt binder,  and then with someone serious give them the whole thing.   How you determine seriousness is up to you.   But I"m not sending a PDF to every guy that answers the advertisement.

[Guest]

I keep a file folder on every car I do. I make this available as part of the selling package and of course it goes with the car when it sells. Easy insurance and many items have limited lifetime warranty, which makes it convenient for a new owner.

Edited August 21, 2020 by GregLaR (see edit history)

[SC38dls]

Go see it. Then if you like it ask him if he remembers the shop name where he had it rebuilt. If he gives you name check with them. If he can give you info on where it was you can do research to see if they have records. There can’t be to. Many shops in the NE part of Ohio doing engine work on a Cord. As Ed says it takes some work if you think the car is worth it. Remember he’s 88 and probably forgets what he had for lunch today, no way to remember where a receipt is from a few years ago. 
Have fun. 
 

Edited August 20, 2020 by SC38DLS (see edit history)

[TTR]

I've always considered any claim without proper (photo- & receipt-) documentation invalid/useless/worthless when inquiring or purchasing an old, a.k.a. used car, no matter how rare or exotic. 

 

Whenever someone just says "brakes/engine/transmission/etc. has just/recently been rebuilt" without ability to promptly produce adequate documentation/proof, my mind immediately goes to "whatever the f**K that means"-mode and automatically discounts the value of that claim from perceived value of the car, i.e. I think those brakes or that engine, etc may require a full rebuild and that needs to reflect the price, unless a full length test drive and other close inspections suggest otherwise.

 

Even if everything appears freshly done, all full of bling & glitter, it doesn't mean it's done correctly or even reasonably well, but people are and have always been gullible and when buying something like a classic/vintage/etc. cars, vast majority of individuals are far more emotional than practical about the process. Millions of sad stories* out there to prove it and more being created daily.

 

*I might've mentioned somewhere here earlier,  but I'm currently working on a clients car that was purchased without proper due diligence (before my involvement) and while the engine (for example) was claimed and appeared to have been (fully ?) "rebuilt" by a so-called professional custom/restoration shop and had zero hours/miles on it, brief peek inside along with subsequent removal & disassembly revealed enough hair raising hack work to deem the entire effort having been absolute waste of time and money. Obviously, the new (current) owner is not too happy about that, especially when some of the previously performed work seems to have done more damage than good.

Edited August 20, 2020 by TTR (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Some people call lapping the valves rebuilding the engine, others new rings. A rebuilt engine is everything new......pistons, valves, guides, bearings, timing chain and gears, oil pump, carburetor, distributor, starter, water pump, new radiator......if you rebuild an engine pre war and don’t install a new radiator, it’s a cheap short cut overhaul. A real overhaul is VERY expensive......what restoration shop did it? The local Briggs and Stratton shop, or someone who has won Pebble Beach several times? 20k on a correct rebuild in a full time full service shop is a short cut on that car. What good is a new engine on a Cord without doing the entire transmission stem to stern. Are all the tires and tubes new? Why do a good engine and transmission without going through the brakes, tires. Ect........it’s all perspective.......most people spend five grand on a car and think they paid for the Saturn Five project. Unless you speak to the guy who did the work......it’s all unicorn horns and hobby horse poo...........

Edited August 21, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[padgett]

I would put this under "provenance" like a car in England having a complete MOT. It is a definate "value add". The seller's who get maddest are the ones that just pulled it out. Are way too many rebuilt engines that were just painted. Personally would be more concerned about the tranny being right particularly if a Wilson Pre-Selector. Don't think the coupes are that common and very pretty cars.

 

Am working on a car like that at the moment with expecting X to fix what is wrong and 3x to remove what the PO tried to fix.

[John_S_in_Penna]

3 hours ago, Lebowski said:

He said he looked for them 3-4 years ago and couldn't find them but said he would try again but he was still annoyed with me. 

 

Don't take it too personally.  The seller was probably

frustrated with himself for not being organized enough

to have the receipts, and his irritation came through to you.

 

I assess the character and capability of the seller as much as

the car itself.  In a magazine interview many years ago,

collector Jay Leno said much the same thing.  However,

if this man seemed rude, I would give him the benefit of the

doubt and be nice to him.  He may be equally nice in return,

and if you buy the Cord, your decency might make him your friend.

[JV Puleo]

I'm not certain it would make any difference to me if the seller had a receipt but I take a very skeptical view of "rebuild" when people say that. If you haven't seen the car, heard it run, driven it etc. it is premature to be asking for receipts as if the seller is a liar. If someone was out to fool you, a fake receipt from a shop that is no longer operative would be easy enough to create. I've seen all sorts of work described as a rebuild - at most it is usually an overhaul and its value entirely subject to the skill of the person who did it. Price is no indication at all...the worst workmen can charge high prices.

[alsancle]

47 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Some people call lapping the valves rebuilding the engine, others new rings. A rebuilt engine is everything new......pistons, valves, guides, bearings, timing chain and gears, oil pump, carburetor, distributor, starter, water pump, new radiator......if you rebuild an engine pre war and don’t install a new car, it’s a cheap short cut overhaul. A real overhaul is VERY expensive......what restoration shop did it? The local Briggs and Stratton shop, or someone who has won pebble Beach several times? 20k ona correct rebuild India a full time full service shop is a short cut on that car. What good is a new engine on a Cord without doing the entire transmission stem to stern. Are all the tires and tubes new? Why do a good engine and transmission without going through the brakes, tires. Ect........it’s all perspective.......most people spend five grand on a car and think they paid for the Saturn Five project. Unless you speak to the guy who did the work......it’s all unicorn horns and hobby horse poo...........

 

You are correct that "rebuilt" engine could mean a steam cleaning and paint to some people.   I will slightly disagree with the 20k not being enough.  I think you can do a Cord short block for 20k full boat.   Accessories, etc, can push that to 30k,  but it is a Flathead,  not a DV32.

 

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, TTR said:

I've always considered any claim without proper (photo- & receipt-) documentation invalid/useless/worthless when inquiring or purchasing an old, a.k.a. used car, no matter how rare or exotic.

 

I agree with this.  I'm keeping everything down to the penny along with as many photos as I can to prove the point.

 

I'll have 30k in to this Stutz engine by the time it is done not counting the accessories.   I have receipts and pictures of the entire process.

[edinmass]

26 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

You are correct that "rebuilt" engine could mean a steam cleaning and paint to some people.   I will slightly disagree with the 20k not being enough.  I think you can do a Cord short block for 20k full boat.   Accessories, etc, can push that to 30k,  but it is a Flathead,  not a DV32.

 

 

AJ....add up all the new parts, Machine work, labor, r&r the engine, do all the accessories......I don’t think 20 will cut it........how much are heads? 2500 is ten percent of the number..........

[edinmass]

24 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

I agree with this.  I'm keeping everything down to the penny along with as many photos as I can to prove the point.

 

I'll have 30k in to this Stutz engine by the time it is done not counting the accessories.   I have receipts and pictures of the entire process.

 

I made that engine stand back in 1990! Took me a week......hard to believe all the engines we have done on it.........I was twenty five and just out of college.........I had a hard time scraping up the three hundred dollars to build it. I expect in another thirty years I will be dead, and no one will want it....so it will go to scrap.....

 

 

[wayne sheldon]

Even receipts don't always mean much, unless the re-builder is well known in the hobby with a stellar reputation, AND you personally know him yourself. I used to recommend a machinist in Califunny that I had known for years. He specialized in horseless carriage and classic car work, and had done some FANTASTIC repairs for friends of mine. In several cases, I had up close and personal hands on before during and after the repairs. I got to see things that few people in the world could actually repair (like an unobtainium two cylinder jug broken into 29 pieces!), then see the finished part. And later got a ride in the car!

Unfortunately, a bad marriage messed him up a bit. He began cheating and overcharging a few customers for very bad work. A few other things I know about, I won't tell. Personal friends were involved and hurt. But I will never recommend him again.

 

I have seen engines claimed as "fully rebuilt", with a nice looking (in some areas?) paint job. In other areas, they didn't even scrape off the big chunks of dirt and grease. Clearly, the engine was never removed from the chassis. Run the engine, see the blue smoke, hear the pistons slapping around.

 

I don't usually keep many receipts. I know that is bad. But then I do most of my own work. I like to think I do a good job, and have driven some of my engines long and hard after doing them. When I sell a car (usually not by choice), I do not say the engine is "rebuilt". I tell them it has been "reworked", and that I did it myself, and then what was or was NOT done to it. Believe it or don't. I price my cars accordingly (and usually because I need to sell it, end up taking less than I could get if I took my time).

[alsancle]

29 minutes ago, wayne sheldon said:

Even receipts don't always mean much, unless the re-builder is well known in the hobby with a stellar reputation, AND you personally know him yourself. I used to recommend a machinist in Califunny that I had known for years. He specialized in horseless carriage and classic car work, and had done some FANTASTIC repairs for friends of mine. In several cases, I had up close and personal hands on before during and after the repairs. I got to see things that few people in the world could actually repair (like an unobtainium two cylinder jug broken into 29 pieces!), then see the finished part. And later got a ride in the car!

Unfortunately, a bad marriage messed him up a bit. He began cheating and overcharging a few customers for very bad work. A few other things I know about, I won't tell. Personal friends were involved and hurt. But I will never recommend him again.

 

I have seen engines claimed as "fully rebuilt", with a nice looking (in some areas?) paint job. In other areas, they didn't even scrape off the big chunks of dirt and grease. Clearly, the engine was never removed from the chassis. Run the engine, see the blue smoke, hear the pistons slapping around.

 

I don't usually keep many receipts. I know that is bad. But then I do most of my own work. I like to think I do a good job, and have driven some of my engines long and hard after doing them. When I sell a car (usually not by choice), I do not say the engine is "rebuilt". I tell them it has been "reworked", and that I did it myself, and then what was or was NOT done to it. Believe it or don't. I price my cars accordingly (and usually because I need to sell it, end up taking less than I could get if I took my time).

 

My dad has a box with the name of each car written on it.   He throws his stuff in a box.  I've found what I consider critical paperwork on cars he bought in the 50s or 60s in the fold of a magazine.   I'm say to my dad "what the bleep is this?"   and he just shrugs and says paperwork didn't matter in his day.   He might be a lot like the guy selling the Cord (only older).   He wouldn't be able to give you any receipts and you would need to basically trust his word.

 

I'm insane the in the other direction.  I keep a organized binder on each car with ever bit of info, receipts and pictures I can come with.   One of our forum members found this for me at Hershey and you can't imagine the smile I had putting in the binder.  

 

Perhaps I should spend more time in the garage and less at my computer and desk?

 

 

 

[Rusty_OToole]

I'm another who keeps a file folder on each car even though mine are not very rare or valuable. It saves a lot of agony when you want to renew registration, insurance, etc or go to sell a car.

So, how many of you do this and how many don't bother? How many ask for records when buying an old car, and feel better when the seller has a file of repairs and service records going back years?

[Xander Wildeisen]

Here is what you would have to start with.    https://denver.craigslist.org/cto/d/castle-rock-1936-cord-westchester/7168245124.html      could not do it for the asking price of $50,000. 

[Lebowski]

3 minutes ago, Xander Wildeisen said:

Here is what you would have to start with.    https://denver.craigslist.org/cto/d/castle-rock-1936-cord-westchester/7168245124.html      could not do it for the asking price of $50,000. 

 

"The Westchester is a unrestored car."

 

Really? Thanks for sharing that with us.... 

 

 

[Xander Wildeisen]

 15K buy in. 35K left to play with.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tmhd0HyaJYQ

 

[Xander Wildeisen]

Just having fun Lebowski, was going to send it in a private message. Can you not receive a private message? It does not show up as an option on your picture?

Edited August 21, 2020 by Xander Wildeisen (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

We have restored cars for clients who eventually sell the vehicle, say to a dealer.  Said dealer then calls us wanting copies of all our invoices relating to the restoration.  While we will give the dealer a full list of what was done we are not about to release copies of our billing. If the previous owner wants to do so that's fine,  just don't act huffy when we refuse.

[8E45E]

If a seller states that he has receipts for work that was done, there is NO reason for him not to produce them upon request buy a potential purchaser.

 

Craig

[8E45E]

15 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

I will admit to getting annoyed with people who ask for things I don't have. Window stickers, for example. They're somewhat rare, although reproductions and auction houses make it seem like every car should still have one. So buyers ask me for an original window sticker, and I say, "No, sorry, this car doesn't have one." Then they say, "Why not?" I don't know. I wasn't there. I didn't get it with the car and say, "Meh, I don't need this," and throw it in the trash. It's not my fault it doesn't exist and was destroyed by the elements or tossed by a guy who didn't know that in 68 years his daily driver would be a collector's item. I don't know why the sticker is gone--most people didn't save them because they didn't care and didn't know that some guy in the future would act like his life depended on it. It's not there. It doesn't make the car a fraud because it doesn't exist, it's merely like most cars where its history is cloudy.

Not sure about today, but I recall back in the 1970's, watching a car get "dealer prepped" in the service department just prior to delivery to a customer.  (You see the charge for 'Dealer Prep' charge all the time on a window sticker!!)  While I was watching this brand new Ford being 'dealer prepped', there were a couple of staff members doing the usual vacuuming the interior and polishing the exterior, and a third guy, a service technician with a razor blade, scraping off the window sticker and then under the hood peeling off various other assembly line inspection stickers, which may be another reason they don't exist.

 

Craig

Edited August 21, 2020 by 8E45E (see edit history)

[Lebowski]

8 hours ago, Xander Wildeisen said:

Just having fun Lebowski, was going to send it in a private message. Can you not receive a private message? It does not show up as an option on your picture?

 

It was disabled for some reason so I undisabled it.... 

[TTR]

10 hours ago, Restorer32 said:

We have restored cars for clients who eventually sell the vehicle, say to a dealer.  Said dealer then calls us wanting copies of all our invoices relating to the restoration.  While we will give the dealer a full list of what was done we are not about to release copies of our billing. If the previous owner wants to do so that's fine,  just don't act huffy when we refuse.

+1

I've always had similar policy. I'm willing to discuss in great detail the work I've performed with potential buyer(s) or new owner of a car, but won't share copies of invoices or (extensive files of) restoration photos I've taken during it with anyone other than the client commissioning/paying for the job. If they wish to share them, that's their business.

Edited August 21, 2020 by TTR (see edit history)

[Paul Dobbin]

I bought a car a few years ago that came with receipts for everything done in the sellers

ownership time, including one for transmission seals and cleaning and rodding the radiator.

neither if which had been done.  In fact the radiator had a piece if duct tape on the top tank

seam, spray painted black.  (Which I didn't see until I replaced it.  Radiator support hid it)

The seller was not a crook, but the places he took it for repairs cheated him.

Another time I bought car that came with engine rebuild specifications saying was bored 20.  When I replaced a head gasket, all the pistons were stamped 40.

To some people a rebuilt engine means totally repainted.  Let the buyer beware.

 

[BearsFan315]

and everyone gives me crap for keeping all paperwork on my 1929 Chevrolet. invoices, receipts, plus thousands of pictures of work i have done as well as others. engine shop doing work i go by once a week, ask questions, touch, feel, and take pictures, they have no problem with it, then like it that i care about what is going on. 

also scan all my paperwork in and have PDf's just in case, all the originals are in a folder, with all the other paperwork for the car.

if i ever sell the car you get everything i have on hand... no need to keep it around if it is related to that particular car...

[JV Puleo]

14 hours ago, Restorer32 said:

We have restored cars for clients who eventually sell the vehicle, say to a dealer.  Said dealer then calls us wanting copies of all our invoices relating to the restoration.  While we will give the dealer a full list of what was done we are not about to release copies of our billing. If the previous owner wants to do so that's fine,  just don't act huffy when we refuse.

 

Absolutely correct! That is entirely between you and your customer. If the cstomer wants to release it, that's his business but I can't even imagine having the nerve to ask you.

[JamesR]

I don't think it's rude either. I'm guessing most people wouldn't consider it rude... which COULD make the seller's response slightly suspicious. His "I'll look for it" response is also suspicious, IMO. It's kind of like "Yeah, I (or a previous owner) spent 20 grand on something...but I just tossed the receipt for it in a pile somewhere."

 

I spent 30 grand on waterproofing our basement and reinforcing our foundation a few years ago. I didn't toss the receipt in a pile somewhere. If DID lose the receipt, is it that difficult to get a replacement from the contractor?? Or referring the buyer to the contractor?

 

Maybe the guy who rebuilt the engine isn't in business anymore or is dead. Or maybe this owner didn't get work done, a previous owner did. In any case, getting offended at this reasonable request is, at best, poor salesmanship and at worst, a subterfuge or mind game. 

[39BuickEight]

The only person who would think it is rude is the seller who doesn’t have the receipt.  They act like that in an attempt to make you think you did something wrong, deflecting from the fact they can’t support their claims.

[tom_in_nh]

I wonder how many guys make receipts disappear,  in order to rid of evidence that the spouse will never know about? 

[TTR]

2 hours ago, tom_in_nh said:

I wonder how many guys make receipts disappear,  in order to rid of evidence that the spouse will never know about? 

I’d imagine those being guys not only in the wrong hobby, but probably in an insecure/unhealthy relationship...

 

Edited August 22, 2020 by TTR (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

On 8/20/2020 at 4:08 PM, Matt Harwood said:

I would also not let the lack of receipts scare me away from a car I wanted. 

Agreed !!! 

 

By the way, it seems to be a huge thing with Sports Car people to keep every receipt (but I have probably a top 10 Austin Healey 3000 and it came with ONLY A FEW FOR PARTS - a hobby car driven weekly from new, excepting bad weather that was passed from one Austin Healey Club member to the next - before I bought it the replacement parts consisted of: NO replacement parts in original owners hands via 40 years and no dealership maintenance, then second owner replaced tires, a few brake parts, and one radiator hose.  Basically, one of those cars that is a legend for the brand. 

 

By the way, I may or may not keep receipts for someone else project, but could care less about receipts for my own projects (doubt I have saved a one over dozens and dozens of cars) -  Personally, my opinion is:  "If someone wants a car then they should buy it and if they do not want it then someone else will buy it" - when I first started selling cars, I would spend hours jumping through hoops for people and it turns out the percentage of those people are so small as buyers matched to ... , that now I am now not so much interested in dealing with the whining, complaining, and ...

 

 

[John_Mereness]

12 hours ago, 39BuickEight said:

The only person who would think it is rude is the seller who doesn’t have the receipt.  They act like that in an attempt to make you think you did something wrong, deflecting from the fact they can’t support their claims.

In 15+ years now of selling cars on a fairly regular basis, all across the globe, and generally probably 75% with a value of over 100K, I cannot tell you of one purchaser who asked for receipts (on a car that had them or not), that I would say bought the car and I can attribute purchase to record keeping - turns out the buyers are people who just love the car or they very much like the car and are heavily swayed by a family member, friend, or the their financial adviser.   There are some cars you know are good ones, some suspect, some were good ones and now offroad, and .. - comes in all shapes and sizes (aka a "mixed bag") - you tell what you know, you tell what you do not know, and you price accordingly.  

 

Of those who demanded receipts - statistically 0% have ever bought and statistically I would say 100% come in at ridiculously low offers or are such a pain in the ass that it is better to just not deal with them (for lack of a better phrase "it is a breed"). 

[John_Mereness]

On 8/20/2020 at 11:00 PM, Lebowski said:

 

It actually is a pretty decent car to start with (at last as far as unrestored Cords go), but there are A LOT of shiny restored Cords that did not start out even near half this nice .