1927 Pierce-Arrow Series 80 sedan

[58L-Y8]

I have no personal interest or stake the eventual sale of  this 1927 Pierce-Arrow Series 80 sedan.

https://allentown.craigslist.org/cto/d/slatedale-1927-pierce-arrow-series-80/7125988987.html

[RansomEli]

From the ad:

 

"Cracked head needs to be repaired - Ran great until this point"

[Matt Harwood]

Did he misplace a decimal?

[trimacar]

So this is one of those "ran great until it didn't" cars...Yeah, that might be a hard sell at that price point....

[edinmass]

1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said:

Did he misplace a decimal?

 

 

Wish your analysis was incorrect............

[58L-Y8]

Ed, what is a realistic price for this Pierce-Arrow 80 in non-running condition?

[edinmass]

Out of my area of Pierce Arrow collecting..........the market on that particular Pierce is very soft, and a similar two door car that looked a bit better, drove fine, took a few weeks to sell at a much lower price and didn't need any work. Parts for that car are tough........and a head is made of gold.......usually today nice cars like that with an issue only sell on price............and its usually way less than the seller wants. 

[Matt Harwood]

How difficult to find a head, Ed? That Pierce would look awesome as a tow truck...

[Hupp36]

There is  a head for  that  car on Ebay under  Pierce  Arrow that  states  that  the  head was  crack checked OK.

[edinmass]

The head I saw on eBay back a week ago  was a different series car and doesn’t fit. How. Much for a head? Easy, buy a car with a good one, and your all set. This is a small Pierce six......very nice car, very well made, but parts are very, very difficult. Pierce twelve parts are common compared to this car.

[Joe in Canada]

Weld the crack with ni rod, grind it level, run a descaler over the welded area to give it that casting texture look, paint and then bolt it back on.  

[Hupp36]

Yes  Ed,  my  mistake, I  thought  the  Series 80  was  a duel valve 6, now  I  know its  a straight 6.. Please  forgive  me , I  am a Hupp  Guy.

 

[edinmass]

2 hours ago, Joe in Canada said:

Weld the crack with ni rod, grind it level, run a descaler over the welded area to give it that casting texture look, paint and then bolt it back on.  

Nope, won’t work. 

[SparkEE]

6 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Nope, won’t work. 

@edinmass Why?  I have I have no skin in the game, just curiosity.  

[Grimy]

I've owned a 1925 S80 sedan since 1994, and owned a S80 coupe for 21 years, so for once I may have more info than Ed...  🙂 

 

Heads can be pinned (Lock-n-Stitch method, see their website), depending on where they are cracked.  Heads are tough to find, as Ed says, about $750 for an uncracked one.  A design defect, if you will, is that these heads from the factory had (arguably) a too thin mating surface to the head gasket--and we should expect that heads have been planed during valve jobs at least some times over the years, with the effect that the mating surface becomes very thin and not good at heat dissipation. On these engines, it is essential to spend an hour of tedious work with a dental pick removing the crud buildup where the studs exit the deck BEFORE installing a new head gasket.

 

A more critical thing to look for, IMHO, is whether the center row (front-to-rear) of head studs is still 7/16.  Often these heads have been overtorqued, pulling the threads out of the block where they enter the water jacket, and the studs are then drilled out and replaced with 1/2" studs.  If the center row studs are 1/2, run away, because even a bit of overtorquing can cause a crack into the cylinder walls, especially if the car has been substantially overbored over the years.

 

Because the listing seems to have no photos of either the interior or the engine compartment, I can't comment much on the asking price except to say that IF (1) the engine were running satisfactorily -- and we know that isn't true, and (2) there's is a decent, serviceable original interior, the car should be worth perhaps $15K as a driver.  I note that it is a Coach series (less expensive then the DeLuxe series, which was $650 more at the time) with squared vs radiused quarter windows, single-piece windshield, wood-grained steel (vs. mahogany) window mouldings, and lesser upholstery.

[edinmass]

George......I don’t think you can buy a good head for 750 any more...........there are just about none left. Many have bad repairs that can no longer be fixed due to poor repair attempts. There are many more cars than heads.....it’s common to find nice old sedans 100 percent complete except the head is missing. Three are two cars in Connecticut like this. There is a very, very nice roadster available for an asking of 38k, and that is the starting number on a 95 point car that’s turn key. In my opinion a head would cost you two grand today if you could find one, which I’m rather sure you won’t. As George will tell you they are nice but a bit slower as a driver. It’s not an open highway car. 

[Grimy]

I'll sell YOU a S80 head for $2K, Eddie!  Greg and I sold an entire engine 3-4 years ago for less than that with one phone call.

 

Build *quality* of the series 80 is just as good as the senior cars.  They are 45 mph cruise with the 4.45 (most common) differential, 36-37 mph with the deepest 4.88 set.  The Company specified gear ratios by the selling territory, so SF and Denver cars got the 4.88s.  I fit a Mitchell 26% OD with my factory 4.88s so can cruise comfortably at 50 now.  Cruising speeds are probably not much different from other cars in their price range--as you know from your Packard experiences.

 

An afterthought about the subject car: Seller says cracked head but I'd do a compression test to confirm, and ask whether head had been torqued before this happened.  Again, if the center row of head studs has been changed to 1/2-inch, flee!

[edinmass]

Well George, as you know we sell more Pierce parts than anyone on the planet. While we don’t often deal in series 80/81 parts, we do get tons of calls. The most common item requested is parking lights, heads, and tail lights. I have not seen a non repaired head for sale in over 15 years, and probably have had requests for twenty of them. Since you and Greg are the 80/81 gurus, I’m sure you can come up with one or two, or more. But a new novice owner doesn’t have the relationships to get impossible parts fast or easy. Then remember you sold an entire engine.......99 percent of the 80/81 guys don’t have the ability or the funds to ship an engine. And, did you sell the engine with a guarantee that the head and block were good? Most people want that today......because they simply don’t understand the realities of used 100 year old parts. We probably have virtually every rare and almost impossible part you could ask for for a 1929-1938 Pierce 8 & 12, but most of them are NOT for sale. Last October we had 17 good eight cylinder exhaust manifolds, with intakes attached and magna-fluxed. We listed three for sale and sold them in less than two days. The rest are not for sale. With no one making any reproduction manifolds 1930-1938 8 or 12 anymore, and the high failure rate, the price of them is very high. Since you and I go back many years, your a good guy, and we have tilted a few glasses at the bar, I would dip into my not for sale stuff for you. After all, your my favorite Uncle in California. And, just as a quick comment, a running and driving car that is down due to a bad head...........what’s the car worth is it doesn’t drive? While a barn find sedan is limited in value, the open cars are what’s mostly being driven today. The open car guy would dish out 2k in five seconds flat............for a guaranteed good head, as he has much more money on the line. I shipped a head to India last month for a 8. The purchaser had already bought two others, which were junk. He gladly paid for a head that was sandblasted, checked for cracks, surfaced, primed, and painted. It wasn’t cheap, but he got his part with confidence. Since 2/3 of the work is now done by restoration shops, the shop also prefer parts that they know are good, or their money back.

Edited May 23, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

I am a traditional uniformed buyer and it looked pretty good to me. Many times friends have told me I paid too much for a car or shouldn't have bought it at all. I have always moved the mistakes down the road and have no recollection of any financial disasters or huge frustrations on my part. At this point I think I am a little ahead of the game. And an impulse buyer.

 

Some great opportunities can be gained by listening to stories. Grimy, ask our mutual friend to tell you the story about the 1939 Buick 4 door convertible his friends helped him pass on. You will like it and it is an underlying thought in most of my purchases. I bet he told me 30 years ago.

 

Bernie

[Grimy]

4 hours ago, edinmass said:

Well George, as you know we sell more Pierce parts than anyone on the planet. While we don’t often deal in series 80/81 parts, we do get tons of calls. The most common item requested is parking lights, heads, and tail lights. I have not seen a non repaired head for sale in over 15 years, and probably have had requests for twenty of them. Since you and Greg are the 80/81 gurus, I’m sure you can come up with one or two, or more. But a new novice owner doesn’t have the relationships to get impossible parts fast or easy. Then remember you sold an entire engine.......99 percent of the 80/81 guys don’t have the ability or the funds to ship an engine. And, did you sell the engine with a guarantee that the head and block were good? Most people want that today......because they simply don’t understand the realities of used 100 year old parts. We probably have virtually every rare and almost impossible part you could ask for for a 1929-1938 Pierce 8 & 12, but most of them are NOT for sale. Last October we had 17 good eight cylinder exhaust manifolds, with intakes attached and magna-fluxed. We listed three for sale and sold them in less than two days. The rest are not for sale. With no one making any reproduction manifolds 1930-1938 8 or 12 anymore, and the high failure rate, the price of them is very high. Since you and I go back many years, your a good guy, and we have tilted a few glasses at the bar, I would dip into my not for sale stuff for you. After all, your my favorite Uncle in California. And, just as a quick comment, a running and driving car that is down due to a bad head...........what’s the car worth is it doesn’t drive? While a barn find sedan is limited in value, the open cars are what’s mostly being driven today. The open car guy would dish out 2k in five seconds flat............for a guaranteed good head, as he has much more money on the line. I shipped a head to India last month for a 8. The purchaser had already bought two others, which were junk. He gladly paid for a head that was sandblasted, checked for cracks, surfaced, primed, and painted. It wasn’t cheap, but he got his part with confidence. Since 2/3 of the work is now done by restoration shops, the shop also prefer parts that they know are good, or their money back.

Ed, I agree with you!  But we have different "business models."  You operate a business and sell with a guarantee, and have warehouse space to pay for.  Greg and I are amateurs and do the onesies-twosies, don't actively seek out cars to break up for parts, and we acquire excess to our own needs primarily on the basis of opportunity and close proximity.  In the case of the engine I mentioned, I happened to find a CL ad where the car was already broken up--100 miles away--which a couple of young guys bought out of an estate, an unfinished just-begun restoration.  We loaded my long bed dually above cab height, strapped everything down, and brought it to my place (overstuffed already).  So this was quick-turn merchandise, and we made a call on the way home to an experienced, knowledgeable friend in PAS who we knew was looking for a block.  The friend made a 12-hr run to pick up the accurately-described bare engine (carb and primer cups and already gone, no water pump).  For space reasons, we wanted the big hunk of metal out of the way.  Yes, that engine block is in his runabout now.

 

You deserve the compensation you get for having a large inventory, accurately described, and which has in many cases been cleaned, magnafluxed, etc.  Because "time is money" has never been more valid than now, you are entitled to get strong prices, especially for contracted-out restorations where nationwide searches are costing the owner $100/hr or better, or the owner values his/her time to the point that he/she doesn't need to haggle over every last nickel. .  Greg and I are the dinosaurs of the hobby, pretty much doing the parts exchanges like they were done 50 years ago among hobbyists who have networked.  And networking, at a bare minimum joining a marque-specific club and engaging with the ads and the knowledge transmitted in the technical pubs, is especially important for orphan cars like Pierce-Arrow.

 

BTW, I sent the water pump, four Houdaille cast iron shocks and links, and some smalls to Greg in a single US Postal Service large flat rate box weighing 56 lbs!  I told the clerk that in this shipment I was finally getting my money's worth!

 

And I greatly appreciate your offer of your "not for sale" stuff if I needed it.  Along those lines, I have a local friend who's doing a super-cheap refurbishment of a "field-find" (worse than a barn-find) Series 80 with sidemounts (first 80 I've seen with those as factory equipment) on a less-than-bare-bones budget, and Greg and I have individually sold him stuff at deep discount because it's a worthy project and he's a good guy.

 

 

Edited May 23, 2020 by Grimy
correct typos (see edit history)

[Grimy]

17 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

Grimy, ask our mutual friend to tell you the story about the 1939 Buick 4 door convertible his friends helped him pass on. You will like it and it is an underlying thought in most of my purchases. I bet he told me 30 years ago.

Thanks, Bernie.  I won't see the Godfather until this time next year.  Get him to bring you to our meet in Lancaster PA next June.

[58L-Y8]

Thanks for all the details and perspectives on the Pierce-Arrow Series 80/81 cars.  My conclusion is this 1927 sedan is condemned to being a static display in some museum or personal collection or maybe moving with power from another make engine if someone badly wants to drive it again.  But the seller will have to be willing to sell it dirt cheap. 

[edinmass]

5 minutes ago, 58L-Y8 said:

Thanks for all the details and perspectives on the Pierce-Arrow Series 80/81 cars.  My conclusion is this 1927 sedan is condemned to being a static display in some museum or personal collection or maybe moving with power from another make engine if someone badly wants to drive it again.  But the seller will have to be willing to sell it dirt cheap. 

 

Unfortunately a correct analysis. 

[Grimy]

25 minutes ago, 58L-Y8 said:

Thanks for all the details and perspectives on the Pierce-Arrow Series 80/81 cars.  My conclusion is this 1927 sedan is condemned to being a static display in some museum or personal collection or maybe moving with power from another make engine if someone badly wants to drive it again.  But the seller will have to be willing to sell it dirt cheap.

I agree.  I think most of us who have been around for awhile make offers based on if the engine doesn't run decently, it will need a full rebuild--that's the only safe way unless it's a car you just have to have for sentimental or other reasons.  The only way that seller could achieve 75% of his asking price is to cure the head problem first.

[58L-Y8]

This question is for those who have had intimate experience with both the Pierce-Arrow 80/81 and the concurrent Packard Sixes.  Your assignment, please compare and contrast the strength and weaknesses of each relative to the other.  

[edinmass]

1 hour ago, 58L-Y8 said:

This question is for those who have had intimate experience with both the Pierce-Arrow 80/81 and the concurrent Packard Sixes.  Your assignment, please compare and contrast the strength and weaknesses of each relative to the other.  

 

I shall keep conspicuously quiet.................

[58L-Y8]

52 minutes ago, edinmass said:

 

I shall keep conspicuously quiet.................

Why, its it likely to start a range war...?

[60FlatTop]

Be sneaky. Put a Studebaker engine in it and an audio pickup under the fender.

[58L-Y8]

For a Model 80 with a sick engine but too good condition to part out, my choice to replace the engine would be a postwar Packard 288 cu in straight eight, though fit might be an issue.  Other choices would be six cylinder postwar Hudson 262 and 308, Packard 245, Studebaker 245, and Mopar 251. 264

Edited May 25, 2020 by 58L-Y8
added six cylinder options (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

22 hours ago, 58L-Y8 said:

This question is for those who have had intimate experience with both the Pierce-Arrow 80/81 and the concurrent Packard Sixes.  Your assignment, please compare and contrast the strength and weaknesses of each relative to the other.  

My opinion:  If you want a Packard get a Packard and if you want a Pierce Arrow then get a Pierce Arrow, but I never have viewed either marque as something that is competitively shopped against each other as to a "best choice" between the two aka you are either a Packard owner or a Pierce Arrow owner more or less.   I hear it all the time - I can get an X for a lot less than an Auburn - well, probably you can get an X cheaper, but most every Auburn owner I know went out hunting one or happenstanced into one and fell in love with it, but I cannot point to a single person that has one that comparative shopped for it (maybe a few out there, but I have never heard their stories). 

 

As to cylinder heads, if the car is you then figure it out albeit my experience is the first casting of anything like that is a painful and 10K + proposition. 

 

I dealt with a 1929 Packard 640 head for a friend - it looked to me like the thing had cracked in half at some point in time as the the weld was as ancient as the head - I sent it out for resurfacing and had a pinhole repaired, they pressure tested it, and two years and 1K miles is still working (and soooooooooooooooooooooooooo glad it is not my car). 

[ericmac]

On 5/23/2020 at 1:52 PM, 58L-Y8 said:

Thanks for all the details and perspectives on the Pierce-Arrow Series 80/81 cars.  My conclusion is this 1927 sedan is condemned to being a static display in some museum or personal collection or maybe moving with power from another make engine if someone badly wants to drive it again.  But the seller will have to be willing to sell it dirt cheap. 

There was a similar 26 sedan in Kalamazoo, MI years ago. It was an older, tired but still impressive restoration.  Word on the street was that car recieved  similar era Studebaker power so the owner could use the car. Something like that might be the way to go with this car, but only if authenticity is very much of a secondary concern. 

[58L-Y8]

30 minutes ago, John_Mereness said:

"My opinion:  If you want a Packard get a Packard and if you want a Pierce Arrow then get a Pierce Arrow, but I never have viewed either marque as something that is competitively shopped against each other as to a "best choice" between the two aka you are either a Packard owner or a Pierce Arrow owner more or less."...

Thanks John for your views.  True, I doubt whether anyone 'cross-shops' the two makes when pursuing cars of the period.  The preference is either for one marque or the other, as in old brand loyalty of years ago.  My question is based on those cars being of the same price-class and general features when new, albeit with the Pierce-Arrow the more costly of the two.  General drivability, difficulty and cost of parts and repairs, what were their relative strengths and weaknesses.  

 

30 minutes ago, John_Mereness said:

As to cylinder heads, if the car is you then figure it out albeit my experience is the first casting of anything like that is a painful and 10K + proposition. 

 

The Model 80/81 cylinder heads becoming 'unobtainium' to all but those well-off enough to bear the expense effectively excludes potential owners of more modest means, condemns the closed cars to be come static displays or parts cars.  The authenticity would be compromise with another make engine but might also allow an individual with more modest means to take conservatorship and derive use and enjoyment rather than have the car collect dust as fully original.  Certainly a trade-off to consider.

[Grimy]

An issue with any engine substitute in a Series 80/81 is that there is but 1/4-inch clearance between the rear of the block and head and the engine side of the firewall, meaning that there is a very tight longitudinal fit.  Torquing the back row of cylinder head nuts is a real adventure.  Further, the long crank handle snout of the 80/81 engine protrudes through the sheet metal apron below the radiator, meaning that the sheet metal apron must be detached from the front frame horns to allow the cast aluminum crankcase to be removed from the chassis, posing a problem for front sheet metal treatment for any substitute engine.  The cast iron cylinder block is relatively easily detached from an in situ crankcase in the event that bearings do not need to be addressed.

 

Despite all the negativity here, in my experience most cracks in S80 heads can be successfully pinned, but don't use the DIY kits--have it done by professionals.  On the other hand, the one-year only S81 engine, and the last 500 S80s of 1927, are equipped with cast aluminum heads which have not survived nearly as well as the iron heads.  I'll wager a guess than almost half of the S81s extant currently wear iron heads from 1925-27 S80s.  A facility in El Paso has offered new-manufacture aluminum heads to fit both 80s and 81s, but I do not know of a single one that has been actually delivered in the past 12 years despite their requirement for up-front payment--consider that a word of warning.  The networking available within a single-marque club is essential when you need parts or reliable service vendors in this kind of situation.

 

@58L-Y8  Sorry, I can't compare the Packard Single Six (later, just Packard 6) and the Series 80/81.  I did haul a Packard 6 parts stash for a friend 15 years ago, and helped him decipher the Perrot front brake controls, but he sold the 1927 runabout before I got a chance to drive it.  The Packard 6 came first, and even we Pierce folks agree that PAMCC was attempting to copy the Packard and gain market share and cash.  As I've previously mentioned, initially the DeLuxe S80 was $650 more than the Packard 6, body style for body style, and thus not truly competitive on price.  Recognizing this, the PAMCC introduced the $650-cheaper Coach series in only 2- and 4-door sedan variations.  My own opinion is that the "cheapened" features of the Coach series saved the company no more than about $100 per car, meaning that PAMCC was taking large profits from the DeLuxe series.

[Matt Harwood]

This kind of sounds like George Washington's famous axe: the museum has replaced the head twice and the handle five times over the years, but by God it's still the same axe George Washington used!

 

Is this car really worthy of the hassles of an engine swap and getting the transmission to fit and all the other systems to cooperate? Even if you manage it, you still have a bitsa that's worth a fraction of what it would otherwise be worth with a Pierce engine. If someone wants one of these desperately enough to consider an engine swap on this poor soul, I bet there are some reasonably-priced examples that are available and fully operational.

 

If a cylinder head is truly unobtainium, this is now a parts car.

 

 

[bdc]

If everything else fails you just put a SBC in it.....

After I just said that, a Packard engine doesn't sound so bad anymore! 

 

 

[58L-Y8]

Thanks for your responses, this was just a hypothetical, no urge on my part spend the family fortune on this Series 80.    An 80 running with a different year and make engine wouldn't have much value other than as a fun driver, albeit still a rather slow one.

[John_Mereness]

2 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

If a cylinder head is truly unobtainium, this is now a parts car.

 

 

It is not a parts car, but it does mean the car is near worthless and someone must step up to the plate and re-manufacture cylinder heads (if not repairable and my guess is a repair is just stop gap) - an expensive proposition, but done relatively frequently for various makes.   Someone determined needs to buy the car and solve its problems.

 

I recall a fellow at the Franklin meet with a 1927 PA touring and I was horrified when he opened the hood to see an Aluminum head on the car - I guess one series of PA had them while the others Cast Iron (RR was not doing aluminum until three years later sometime in 1930, and those heads were failing by very early 1950's - aka I am not a fan of that kind of pioneering).

 

We can have lots of talks about Auburn aluminum heads and basically not for the faint of heart or tight of wallet (but, one of our former cars is still driving around on its original aluminum head).

 

And RR-PI, RR-PII, RR 20-25, RR-25/30 are common players among having issues.  And then there are all the head issues on late 20's and ... Packards.  Lincoln's are right up there too.  There is the Duesenberg issues of 100K +.  And ....   Last week, I saw a Facebook post regarding a need for a 42.5 English pound Hispano head - that is $51,823.86 US.   My machinist does Miller engines - they are a bunch of welded junk that needs re-manufactured as just nothing left to repair. 

[edinmass]

I have never attempted to repair a series 80/81 head. If there are no previous repair attempts, using a professional stitcher, and then sealing the head with Lock-Tite might be a good option.(maybe) Usually people will severely overheat the engine, to save the cost of towing. So it’s just not a head issue. So it comes down to let’s say two grand to do a very correct and proper head repair, then you assemble it and find out what you have. Series 80/81 cars bring such little money across the board......taking in consideration condition.............why buy one that has issues when you can get a turn key car at attractive pricing. Also, since it’s a much slower car than the eights and twelves, it’s another reason to look elsewhere. Properly sorted 80/81 cars with a strong engine and a high speed rear are much more usable............but the car at the top of the thread  looks very long in the tooth......There are just too many other options for your dollar today..............why bother? A lot of starter pre war cars that would sell to new people in the hobby fifteen or twenty years ago are going to be pushed to the back of the barn...........There are lots of good choices for cars in this category for very reasonable prices. 

Edited May 25, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Grimy]

44 minutes ago, John_Mereness said:

 

I recall a fellow at the Franklin meet with a 1927 PA touring and I was horrified when he opened the hood to see an Aluminum head on the car - I guess one series of PA had them while the others Cast Iron (RR was not doing aluminum until three years later sometime in 1930, and those heads were failing by very early 1950's - aka I am not a fan of that kind of pioneering).

The last 500 S80 cars in 1927 had the aluminum head (and rods) used for the S81 1928 cars, so a 1927 S80 with aluminum head may well be totally authentic and certainly need not be worthy of "horror."

 

When the market demands, aluminum heads for S80 and S81 cars will be produced, just as they were 20 or more years ago for 1936-38 8-cylinder engines which carried factory aluminum heads.  As almost all of us here know, aluminum heads are subject to deterioration if owners are not careful to keep cooling systems clean and well protected against corrosion; in the presence of dissimilar metals (iron in blocks, copper in radiators, aluminum in necks, etc.), the aluminum is the sacrificial material.

 

The S80/S81 is a good, inexpensive "starter" car that is a CCCA Classic.  I agree with Ed, they're not for people who want to go fast, but neither are Packards of the same vintage (Ed, your prejudices are showing).

[John_Mereness]

17 hours ago, Grimy said:

The last 500 S80 cars in 1927 had the aluminum head (and rods) used for the S81 1928 cars, so a 1927 S80 with aluminum head may well be totally authentic and certainly need not be worthy of "horror."

I am not questioning the aluminum head as authentic or not, I am questioning the engineering in their pioneering effort.   My understanding with the RR PI cars (produced 3year, 4 years, and ... years later, and RR PII cars even newer) is that they supposedly sealed the porosity in the head with some sort of linseed oil and/or molasses mixture and curing process, but when people ran alcohol based anti-freeze in the cars it cause premature deterioration of that process.  And, one of the very first articles in 1951. in Rolls Royce Owner's Club publication speaks to head issues and such being a key reason for the founding of the Club. 

 

Changing the topic back:  Restoration of cars these days often is much more than finding X part - I see parts being fabricated today that no one would have ever dreamed of making - all I have to do is go down to my automotive machine tool shop that specializes in problem pre-WWII cars and the workbenches are full of projects that come in by the day.   The problem is when someone buys a car that dos not have the engineering smarts, determination, wallet, or what have you to solve the problems.  And I can take you to friends garage after friend's garage where problem cars are languishing in the dusty corners of their garage - "the agony of defeat" is a quote that comes to mind. 

 

As to this PA - a decent car from its looks (especially if good wood in it) and someone just needs to by it with the expectation that they need a Plan A, Plan B, Plan C, and ...

 

Sidenote: I joined the Model A Restorer's Club on Facebook and about every other week someone takes a Model A Ford block and plasters some hole in it with JB Weld - and those are the easy cars that people think never have problems (great find too for some lucky new owner).