28 Buick clutch adjustment

[Rod L]

Greetings fellow Buickers, I recently purchased a  1928 Buick sports Roadster that has had a very recent new clutch install. I am getting significant grinding of gears in 2nd and 3rd, primarily in 2nd. What is the procedure for remedying this situation.

 

[Hubert_25-25]

I do not use 2nd gear when the transmission is cold.  1st to 3rd with delay time or double clutching between and no over revving.  Once it is warmed up, it is OK and then I only use 2nd to 3rd because 1st is geared too low.  Ocassionally (especially when cold) The transmission will not want to shift into 3rd, so I have to apply the brakes, slow down to almost a stop, and then it will allow me to get into 3rd.  This is normal for non synchronized transmissions.  I rarely downshift unless I am going very slowly because the transmission does not like that.  The transmission definitely performs better once warmed up.  

The original recommendation was 600 WT steam oil.  My 25 Buick transmission did not like it at all.  I use a blend of 60% Lucas 80/90 gear oil, and 40% Lucas HD stabilizer.  The transmission does a lot better with this mixture.   

I would suggest that you start with a transmission oil change, especially if the transmission does not work well when warmed up.

 

Your car looks great.   Thanks for the photo.     Hugh  

[michealbernal]

Wow, that is a beautiful car.  It has been my experience that if you don't over rev. the engine they shift much better.  The car has a really long stroked engine with outstanding amounts of torque.  You do not have to be going very fast when you shift.  These old cars are not at all like modern cars when it comes to gear changing.

[raydurr]

For proper shifting my 1929 Master demands the correct heavy transmission oil AND proper timing of shifting between gears. These non synchronized transmissions require an exact amount of engine RPM drop before shifting into the next higher gear. Don't force it, it will teach you what it likes. 

[Roger Barrett]

I am familiar with that lovely roadster. So familiar, in fact that I put the clutch in it. When last I drove it the clutch performed exactly as it should. That said, these things don’t drive like cars even just a little newer than this one. There has been a lot of good advice on this thread. When upshifting your Buick you must be patient to let that huge rotating mass slow down to where it would be turning in the gear you are looking for. In essence you must match engine rpm to road speed in any given gear. On downshifting you have to double clutch and rev the engine up to what it would be turning in the gear you want. You have a fine automobile. I looked at it a lot when I was restoring my dad’s 1927 roadster.

[Morgan Wright]

You asked about clutch adjustment in the title. What makes you think the clutch needs adjustment? Not releasing enough?

 

I would think that as long as you can idle the engine at a stand still with the clutch down, in any gear, that the clutch is not too tight. 

[Hubert_25-25]

Lots of good points here.  One of the biggest issues regarding shifting to me is idle speed.   The car shifts so much better if you can get the idle down, be patient, and pracitce double clutching.  Warmed up, with my throttle closed, my idle on full advance is 380 rpm.  If I rotate to full retard, my idle will drop to 300 rpm.   When it is cold, I need full choke and 1/4 throttle opening on the steering column to start it .  Once it starts, the choke goes all the way in and I keep the idle up around 600 rpm with the steering lever until warm.  So this becomes a problem if I only drive a few blocks and the transmission is still cold, and my idle is up.  You have to be especially patient and try to lower the idle as low as possible without loosing it to make gear shifts.  That gear box is not going to warm up very fast either.    

 

It takes a bit of tuning on the engine to get it to run this low.  People love to hear it idle because nothing sounds like these low compression engines anymore.  As a note, there is a pot metal venturi in the carburetor and it grows with time and has a big effect on the operation of the engine.  Do a search on Marvel carburetor rebuilding to understand what happens.  You will never achieve a good idle if this has not been addressed.  

 

Basically a clutch problem is either going to be slipping (worn out and riding on the rivets) or grabbing (a friction disc has failed), or it is working properly.     Hugh 

[Rod L]

Great comments above and I've learned a lot. I am not a complete novice, I've a bit of experience with Model A Fords, so I know about double clutching etc. I can see where some of the other suggestions can be helpful, thanks for those.

I can't say that I know for certain that the clutch really needs adjusting? I only say that because the previous owner told me so, and that is has been my experience that when installing a new clutch it sometimes needs a readjustment after a few miles. I have no idea how many miles were added after the clutch was installed, but the previous owner seemed to think it was necessary. In the event that I am still experiencing shifting issues after following all the excellent advise above, I will still need advice on adjusting it, less I screw something up.  😢

 

Rod

[Grimy]

I don't believe that your car has a "clutch brake," but TRY this technique suitable for cars that do have clutch brakes:  Push pedal fully to toeboard ONLY when at rest and going to reverse or first gear.  While underway, suitably warmed up of course, push the clutch pedal only to within one inch of the toeboard.  This either will or will not help, but it's worth a try.....

[Hubert_25-25]

Rod, The basic adjustment on the clutch is that there is a little "free play" on the pedal when the pedal is essentially all the way up.  The best way to check this is to remove the spring on the clutch pedal and see if it has just a little play when you move the pedal at the top.  There is a big wing nut used to make the adjustment.   Hugh

Edited March 7, 2020 by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)

[Roger Barrett]

There is no clutch brake on these cars. You should have between one and two inches of free play on the pedal before you feel the clutch. It should start to engage about two inches off the floorboards. We replaced the clutch in this car because it had been relined with friction material that was wrong for the application. The car was unmanageable as the clutch would chatter and grab, stalling the engine at inconvenient times. These machines have a multiple disc clutch that is way over engineered. It has something like fourteen discs in all. Keep practicing and you will make friends with the car.

[27donb]

All great advice, and what I will add will be more of what was already said, but here goes.

 

I learned to shift my old Buick, from years as a young passenger, observing and studying my Grandfather and my Father and the way they shifted their Buicks.  My Grandfather, my Mother's father, shifted the car just like my own Father did, so it's not like my Father learned from his own Father how to do it.

 

Never once, did I observe, either one of them try to "get out into traffic" or "get up to speed".  The car gets up to speed, slowly.  There is no revving, flooring it, racing it in each gear, to get ahead of anything, in my experience.

 

My Dad, used to start in 2nd gear.  That produced more slipping and at times, he would stall the engine, but it worked.  My Grandfather always started from 1st gear, and that's what I do as well. 

 

I feel, all Buicks are different and need to be learned.  My 27 Standard is much different than the 27 Master, and I remember the 24 6 cylinder was different yet again (but I haven't driven it in over 25 years).

 

I never have to double clutch when upshifting because I wait for the rpms to drop, as I was taught.  I avoid downshifting and would double clutch from 3rd to 2nd before a turn into a grade for example, but only at a road speed of less than 5mph.  If I needed to get to 1st again, I would stop and start out again.

 

When coming to a stop, leave it in 3rd, come to a complete stop, and shift quickly through neutral to 1st again and leave it there until ready to move.  Don't put it in neutral and let out the clutch at a stop, if at all possible.  Getting back into gear, especially when warm, can be a grind fest.  There were rare occasions when my Dad would have to shut the engine off, put it in 1st, and start the engine with the clutch depressed, but looking back I think that was more of a factor of a low level of transmission oil and those gears were spinning too fast.

 

The heavy gear oil works for me.  Hugh needs a different mix for his car, all Buicks are different!  When I first start out, The Master will shift quietly, the Standard will always, always be a bear to get into 2nd, but after the first time, it's fine.  After both car transmissions are "warm"  The Master always "snicks" just a little in every gear change, the Standard will shift mostly silently.  Of course, that is if I do it right, if I don't let the rpms drop or my timing is off, all bets are off!  It's all part of the fun!  It's never a boring ride like in a modern car, I love it!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7glHBYXXf80

 

Your Roadster is beautiful!  Post more pictures of it please, and let us know how you make out and if you (hopefully) have better luck with your shifting!

 

 

 

 

[Rod L]

Wow!!!

I am totally impressed with this forum, in just a few hours there has been eleven responses and all with relevant information. I will certainly heed the advise given.

Another question, when watching the video posted, I noticed that the shift pattern the fellow was using was reversed from a standard "H" pattern.That would certainly explain my difficulty in getting into 2nd gear? I guess I got there simply by fishing around. I was also starting out in 3rd I guess. I've only driven it once and the PO did not mention the reversed shift pattern. I'm starting to feel really stupid!

I am in Oregon and it's raining (a normal occurrence out here) so I will have to wait for better weather to give it a go again.

 Here's some other photos:

 

 

 

[Rod L]

a couple more:

 

 

[Hubert_25-25]

I keep the following full page in a plastic page protector on the front seat of my car.  I let people drive my Buick, and I want them to learn a little before we start out.  I use this as a reminder to myself as well, because sometimes I get in a hurry and I don't want to forget that the battery tender is still connected.   I also have a folded copy that I keep in a lanyard pouch that I hang from the ignition switch.  It is folded where it shows the main notes and the shift pattern.  The car is not driven daily and may go several weeks and even I sometimes forget certain things.  Most people don't know how to use a choke and when they read words like "retard" it is not meant to disrespect them, but we discuss how the advance mechanism works and when to use it.  The lanyard pouch is always hanging on the ignition switch until I have disconnected the battery tender.     

Here are my notes in case you want to cut and paste this and create your own notes specific to your car.  I have added a hidden turn signal switch and a hide away temperature monitor so I have to explain how they operate as well.   

 

1925 Buick Ownership manual – Starting & Driving                        Hugh Leidlein                             11-24-19 C

This manual is to help the owner properly drive and maintain this 1925 Buick. 

Before driving:             

-          Check the Engine Oil. 

-          Antifreeze is Evans Waterless Coolant.  DO NOT ADD WATER or regular antifreeze.  This is a special lifetime coolant.  The radiator should be filled until the coolant is just visible in the radiator header tank.

-          Tires – 32 PSIG

Starting and Driving

-          Transmission in neutral.  No clutch.

-          Disconnect the battery tender if driving.

-          Pull out the Choke (Only when cold)

-          Retard the spark

-          Use the hand throttle to raise the idle.

(Use it to operate the gas pedal when starting.)

-          Turn on the ignition, push the starter pedal.

-          Push the choke in after it starts.

-          Release the hand brake

Transmission shift is a reverse H      2    R

                                                                  H

                                                                3    1

 1^st and Reverse are non-synchronized so you must be at a complete stop to use them.  It does not like 2^nd gear when cold.  Shifting (especially down shifting) takes practice.  Shift slowly.  Double clutching is helpful.  Over revving makes shifting more difficult.

Ignition lever – Retard for starting, ½ way under 25 mph, full when cruising.

Turn signals and Flashers

-          The switch is located below the dash on the left side of the steering wheel.  They cancel 15 seconds after the brakes are released.

-          The 4 way flashers are initiated if the left turn switch is held for 5 flashes.  If your foot is on the brake they will cancel, or if you flip the turn switch to the right.    

Lights

Position 1 and up - powers the engine temperature monitor.  It flips under the dash for shows. 

Engine Temperature

Water boils at 212 F.  Check the radiator fluid if above 225 degrees.  Stop if at 250 degrees.

This is a large car.  Take wide turns.  Use additional stopping space.  Enjoy.

 

Edited March 7, 2020 by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)

[Rod L]

Well it stopped raining and I went for a drive!

The transmission is a normal H pattern after-all, and I learned that I could shift direct from 1st into 3rd while the trans was still cold, then after it warmed up it would go into 2nd (after a suitable time lapse) without grinding (too much). It definitely prefers going 1-2-3 at a much lower rate of speed than i'm used to in a Model A but I'll get used to it (the traffic behind me -- not so much, but isn't that what that middle finger was created for)😉

 

I'm of the opinion now that the clutch is just fine and needs no adjustment, but al least now I have the info necessary to do so when needed, thanks Hugh!

[27donb]

The video link I posted was my 27, reverse H pattern.  Your 28 was the first year of the traditional H pattern! 

[Mark Shaw]

Welcome to the forum.  Glad you worked out the shift sequence.  

Check out the Prewar Buick Registry here:  https://brassbuicks.groups.io/g/BB

 

[Roger Barrett]

The pictures do not do justice to this car. It was a privilege to work on and drive it. The 1928 models were unique in many ways. First year of conventional shift pattern. When the SAE was thinking about this they went to Henry Ford who was designing the new model A at that time. Ford told them if they wanted every car to shift the same they would have to go with what the model A was going to be and that was that.

[Morgan Wright]

The previous owner told you that he redid the clutch and that you will probably have to adjust it soon. That makes perfect sense. All those drive discs and driven discs need to seat themselves into their own particular shapes, it's just like breaking in a new pair of shoes, they have to break themselves in to the shape of your feet.

 

I redid my clutch last year and adjusted it until it was perfect, but after only a few times of driving the car around, it was loose and started slipping. So I adjusted the nut on the linkage again to tighten it back up, and it has been fine ever since. I'm sure every clutch rebuild needs one small re-adjustment in the beginning. Of course, as the clutch discs wear out over time, it will need adjustments, but that's a different story. That's not breaking in a new pair of shoes, that's repairing old shoes.

Edited May 15, 2020 by Morgan Wright (see edit history)

[Larry Schramm]

Listen to Roger Barrett.  He is more knowledgeable than than most of the guys combined. Probably forgot more than what many of the individuals talk like they are experts.  If he set it up it would be right and should not need a bunch of adjustments.  As said, go slow and learn the car.  The old cars drive differently than a modern car. 

 

You really do not know the vehicle until you have a couple of thousand miles on your car.  Drive on!!

[1928Buick]

Loftbed...

Is Don Pettee's former car...?

I believe a school teacher bought it new, and drove it for many years.

It was restored cosmetically very nicely, but the mechanics were ignored.

I believe Tony Bult went through the car mechanically and got things up to par.

If I remember correctly, it steers very hard, and shouldn't.

 

I believe what the problem is, is not the car, or clutch, but your skill.

 

I always tell new 20's car owners....SLOW Down....!! Not just car speed, but.....You.  We are in a fast paced, "instant" world now.  We jump out of a modern car, and into our antique, and its our frame of mind that is still going too fast.

 

FIRST:  you MUST have true 600W oil in the transmission if you want to experience what Buick intended with its engineering.

without true 600W oil, the gears are spinning too fast.

 

SECOND: check your idle speed.  I can not count how many cars I see on yoututbe or in person, and their idle is waaaaaay  too high.  Buick says that on level ground in high gear at idle the car should travel 5-8 mph for proper idle speed. The idle speed makes a great deal of difference when puching in the clutch to shift.

 

THIRD: Style of driving. 1st gear is NOT to be driven in under normal driving situations....it is to get the car moving...ONLY.  You are in first gear for an honest 1 to 2 seconds....it is ONLY to get the car moving. Shift to 2nd right away, and barely stay in 2nd. Do not wind it up in 2nd gear. Shift to 3rd.

 

Remember...in this era, it wasnt horsepower but torque that was king. Buicks can throttle down to 5mph in 3rd gear all the way to top speed.

 

FOURTH.  Now days we accelerate right up to a stop sign then slam the brakes....In the 20's, when approaching a stop sign....leave the car in gear.....DONT put the clutch in hundreds of feet before the stop....leave the clutch out and let the engine and weight of the rotational mass slow the car just to the stall point, THEN put the clutch in and brake.

 

I have found most people I have helped were just revving the engine waaaaaaay to high....had improper oil in the transmission case, were staying in 1st and 2nd waaaaay too long, and didnt let the gears slow the car down, before disengaging the clutch.

 

Hope this helps...!!

[Oldtech]

The only adjustment on these clutches is the pedal free travel. 

They are a multiple disc clutch so dragging is their nature. If its really bad you may have some warped plates or notches worn in the hub or flywheel. If it was rebuilt properly these shouldn't be issues.

Pausing to let the motor slow down is the normal method on these cars. 

[Rod L]

23 hours ago, 1928Buick said:

Loftbed...

Is Don Pettee's former car...?

I believe a school teacher bought it new, and drove it for many years.

It was restored cosmetically very nicely, but the mechanics were ignored.

I believe Tony Bult went through the car mechanically and got things up to par.

If I remember correctly, it steers very hard, and shouldn't.

 

I believe what the problem is, is not the car, or clutch, but your skill.

 

I always tell new 20's car owners....SLOW Down....!! Not just car speed, but.....You.  We are in a fast paced, "instant" world now.  We jump out of a modern car, and into our antique, and its our frame of mind that is still going too fast.

 

FIRST:  you MUST have true 600W oil in the transmission if you want to experience what Buick intended with its engineering.

without true 600W oil, the gears are spinning too fast.

 

SECOND: check your idle speed.  I can not count how many cars I see on yoututbe or in person, and their idle is waaaaaay  too high.  Buick says that on level ground in high gear at idle the car should travel 5-8 mph for proper idle speed. The idle speed makes a great deal of difference when puching in the clutch to shift.

 

THIRD: Style of driving. 1st gear is NOT to be driven in under normal driving situations....it is to get the car moving...ONLY.  You are in first gear for an honest 1 to 2 seconds....it is ONLY to get the car moving. Shift to 2nd right away, and barely stay in 2nd. Do not wind it up in 2nd gear. Shift to 3rd.

 

Remember...in this era, it wasnt horsepower but torque that was king. Buicks can throttle down to 5mph in 3rd gear all the way to top speed.

 

FOURTH.  Now days we accelerate right up to a stop sign then slam the brakes....In the 20's, when approaching a stop sign....leave the car in gear.....DONT put the clutch in hundreds of feet before the stop....leave the clutch out and let the engine and weight of the rotational mass slow the car just to the stall point, THEN put the clutch in and brake.

 

I have found most people I have helped were just revving the engine waaaaaaay to high....had improper oil in the transmission case, were staying in 1st and 2nd waaaaay too long, and didnt let the gears slow the car down, before disengaging the clutch.

 

Hope this helps...!!

"28"

Yes, it is the car you reference and the restoration was done (remarkably well) as noted in your post, though I can't speak to the sequence, I also don't know the dates of the restoration. It has been exceptionally maintained no matter when the work was done and baring my learning curve has no issues what-so-ever, just a magnificent car. Thanks for your comments.

 

Rod

PS

Steering is just fine.

[Rod L]

What is the capacity of the transmission in this 28 buick? I'm going to try Hugh's formula for fluid.

 

Rod

[Rod L]

I've ordered the lucas  products Where is the fill plug.

 

Is the silver plug indicated by the arrow the fill?

 

 

[27donb]

Yes, fill to edge of filler hole. 

[Rod L]

27donb,

Wow!! That was fast, thanks very much!!

[Rod L]

Drained the trans and added a 2 to 1 mix of Lucas 80-90 to Lucas stabilizer.

I don't think the fluid was ever drained from the transmission, it came out closer to tar than oil (see pic below) if I hadn't pre-warmed the transmission it would have taken three weeks and a day just to drain. Now, I want to drain it again and the flush the whole thing. What are the procedures and fluids to use to flush it?

 Oh! It now shifts extremely easy, just a slight snick in each gear, but that's probably me not timing it quite right.

Thanks Hugh for the tip on the Lucas mix.

 

[KEK]

I thought I had a clutch problem because my transmission on my 1925 Buick roadster was grinding gears with every shift change, moving or from a stop. I adjusted the clutch by turning the butterfly nut as per the shop manual so I have about 1 to 1 1/2 inches of play before I could feel resistance. Those adjustments didn’t seem to help much. That’s when I started to search this forum and found this post. I followed Hugh’s advice to start with an oil change and geez I can’t believe the difference. The expertise on this forum is unbelievable!  My transmission shift is now so smooth in all gears after the oil change. I can engage in 1st gear from a stop without any grinding. I am very familiar with shifting in nonsynchronized transmissions in my Model As and my Buick shifts are noticeably smoother than my Model As.

 

Roger says in a post above “You should have between one and two inches of free play on the pedal before you feel the clutch. It should start to engage about two inches off the floorboards”.  My clutch doesn’t engage until the pedal is 4 or 5 inches above the floorboard. Only about the last 2 inches of travel before the car starts to move.  Maybe I do have a clutch problem?  Any opinions would be appreciated.

 

Thanks,

Ken

[Oldtech]

I would call that (4-5) normal for a clutch that has been in service for a while. I think 2 inches off the boards might be for an everything new clutch. 

[KEK]

It has a newly rebuilt clutch and pressure plate. It’s seems to work okay but I am afraid it might be slipping if it is not entirely engaged.

 

Ken

[Oldtech]

As long as you have the free travel at the top - which means the pedal is not putting any pressure on the release, and it's not slipping when you floor the loud pedal... be happy. 

[KEK]

Yes I adjusted the wing nut so there is no pressure on the release fork and yes there is a gap between the release fork and the bell housing at the top when the clutch pedal is up.  

 

I thought that it slipped on me one time when I let up on the pedal but I havnt reproduced it again. I may have had the butterfly nut to tight. I am just going to drive the car and see what happens.

 

Thanks for helping,

Ken