KEK

Thanks to all that posted to this page I finally got my Buick 1925-24 horn button to work. I was able to remove it from the steering wheel and saw all the parts were there except for the springs that hold the 2 friction pads out. I didn’t have a clue they were missing until I saw the photo Hugh posted. The button never worked because I could never get continuity through the ground wire and I didn’t want to mess with the button because I was concerned I would break it. After seeing the photos I decided to carefully give it a try and got it out easily without damage. The button appeared to be in good condition so I just soaked it overnight in a vinegar bath then reassembeled with the 2 springs and new wire. That was just what the doctor ordered! Works perfectly now. Tweeted it to I get the best aooogha sound. Now if the weather here in Colorado would cooperate I would take her out for a test. Seems like a can’t get more than a mile down the road before someone honks or is waving at the car…

Hi Hugh- I had a similar issue with my 25-6-24 brakes. After I completed replacing all my brake linings I adjusted the brakes following the procedure in the 25 shop manual. I took her out for a test drive around the block and the car seemed to be losing power so I pulled over and saw my front left brake was smoking. The brake band was not releasing. I had tools with me so I released the brake and returned to my shop. I put the car up on the lift and readjusted all 4 brakes again but this time I didn’t follow the shop manual procedures. I could see that the trick is to adjust both bands so they grab evenly around the drum. I then adjusted the rears and left the fronts loose then took her out for a test. During the test run I tweaked the rear bands so the car would stop in a straight line without pulling to either side. After I was happy with the rear brakes I then slowing started to tightened the front bands a little at a time and so it was not pulling. I still need to tighten the fronts a little more but the brakes are working better than ever. When the weather gets nicer I will finish the job. I really want to take the Buick on a 160 mile cruise with some other antique cars in April so the brakes need to be in good working conditions. Ken

Hugh- Thanks for sharing all your hard work. This is great information and inspires me to some day put the top on my 25-24!

Leif- I definitely will check the front end for tightness. I am pretty sure I tightened the tie-rod ends according to the Service Manual when I set the toe-in but not sure about the others. Thanks, Ken

The tires/rims came off a lot easier than I thought. I was probably overthinking the problem -=). Anyway I just pulled the bottom of the tire/rim out as far as I could get it and then hit the backside of the tire on top as Hugh suggested with a hard rubber mallet and they popped right off. What a relief! So I rotated the left side. The left rear tire/rim had a runout of 0.18” which was my best tire/rim so it went up to the front left. The runout on the front then decreased to 0.22” from 0.27” which is an improvement. Interesting the new runout of 0.22” is more than the 0.18” when it was on the rear. Both of my front tires/rims now have a runout of 0.22”. The left rear after rotating the front tire/rim to the back as a runout of 0.12” which is less than the 0.18” tire/rim that I rotated to the front. Doesn’t make sense to me that the tire/rim that had a runout of 0.27” on the front decreased to 0.18” on the rear but the rear tire that I rotated to the front had a runout of 0.18” increased to 0.22” when I rotated it to the front. I guess this is more art than science…. I took her for a test drive and the rotation did seem to help a little. It still has an indication of a slight wobble between 40 and 43 mph but not bad so I am going to declare victory. I feel it is safe to drive 5 miles on the interstate at 45 to 50 mph. Its rides nice and no wobble at all at this speed. I also noticed that depending on the road surface I get no indication of a wobble at 40 mph if the surface is smooth. A nice smooth surface gives a nice smooth ride as you would expect. I plan to put the car up on my lift and check the front axle specifications but that will have to wait until I get my latest project off the lift. I might find something out of spec that can be adjusted but I am not that concerned anymore since the ‘death wobble’ has been eliminated. I did shake the front tires/rims back and forth from top to bottom when they were jacked up off the ground and found the king pins are a little worn. Larry said his left king pin is a little loose but doesn’t cause a wobble so that might not be an issue for me either. Thanks for everyone’s input it is very much appreciated. I always learn something new and interesting on this forum! Ken

Hugh- I will try hitting the backside of the tire as you suggest and if that doesn’t work I’ll use a pry bar on the backside. That sounds like a good idea and any paint that is damaged won’t show. Thanks for the advice! Ken

EmTee- Look at the photos Hugh posted on July 5. The second photo shows the rim. The gap where the two ends of the rim meet at the split is closed when it is secured by the locking cleat. It seems to me that when the cleat is secured the rim would be effectively a solid rim so how can tire pressure tighten the rim on the felloe. However, both Hugh and Terry said that letting air out of the tire would help loosen the rim so maybe locking the cleat does not not eliminate all the gap. Maybe air pressure tightens the rim just a fraction of the gap which is enough to put some pressure on the felloe. Did you see in the second photo where the locking cleat is located. It’s on the inside of the demountable rim. The third photo shows the outside of the wheel (Hugh thanks for posting these photos!). So when the demountable rim is on the wheel the cleat fits inside the outer rim of the wheel. The cleat prevents you from removed the rim by just pulling it straight off the wheel. Hugh explained that to get the rim off the wheel you have to pry the opposite side of the cleat/valve stem out a few inches then you can lift the rim up and off the wheel. I don’t see how I can easily remove the rim without damaging the paint or bending something. Maybe I gave up too soon. I could let all the air out of the tire and try it again…

Hugh - My dad bought 4 Lester tires around 1999 so he could roll his chassis around. I believe he bought the spare tire, which is a B.F. Goodrich Silvertown, in 2004 after Lester tires were no longer available. The Lesters are like new condition, at least on the outside and only have about 200 miles on them. They are 24 years old but seem to be okay. I increased pressure in the tires to 36 psi which is the maximum pressure written on the side of the Lesters. The slight wobble at 35 mph seems to have moved up to around 40 mph. Still not a severe wobble but noticeable. I think it may be a tiny bit better at 36 psi than the lower pressures so I am going to run them at 36 psi. Also since the Lesters are 24 years old it is probably best to run at the maximum inflation so they don’t get hot. I would like to swap the left rear tire/rim with the left front but I am not sure it’s worth the trouble. I don't want to damage the paint or bend anything prying the rim off. I could let out all the air in the tire if you think that would make a difference but I don’t see how having air in the tire would make it harder to remove the rim? Seems to me the obstacle with removing the rim is the ‘cleat”. You just can’t pull the rim/tire straight off the wheel. Probable difficult also to put it back on. Ken

That looks like a lot of fun but I think I will stick with paved roads! That would be a long day to go 200 miles. The brakes are ok for 30 - 35 mph so you need to be cautious at higher speeds. I agree they could be better. I did a 200 mile tour in Colorado this year in June in my 1929 Model A coupe. Weather was almost perfect with a little rain but temperatures less than 70 F. I want to do the same trip in my 25-24 Buick. It rides so much nicer than my model A but I haven’t had it on a trip more than 20 miles yet.

Leif- How cool is that to be the 2nd owner and still have the car! Your 300 mile trip at 35-50 mph gives me confidence I am on the right track (i.e. 200 miles at 35-50 mph) and my Buick should be okay. Thanks for sharing your memories with your 25-25! It’s a beautiful car and I would bet it still looks the same… Ken

Grimy- The writing on the side of the Lester says “maximum load 1350 lbs @ 36 psi”. I have tried 26 and 32 so I could try the maximum 36 and see if that makes a difference. It rides pretty nice now at 26 so I suspect I’ll get a slightly harder ride at 36. Maybe the wobble will be reduced. I will find out… Thanks, Ken

Hi Leif- I only need to drive at 45-50 mph for about 7 minutes then the rest of the tour will be at 35 - 40 mph max with a stop about every 1-1/2 hours. I need to do some careful camber measurements to see how much the axle is off. I only did a single measurement on each tire so one measurement may not be telling the entire story. I probably need to turn the tire 1/4 turn at a time and measure camber at 4-locations to factor in the wobble. Also I need to make sure the axle is setup properly. The Reference Book gives me all the measurements I need to check. Thanks for the suggestions about using a wedge or changing the spring shackles. Ken

I have a Reference Book for the 1925 Standard and it contains a table that lists tire pressure for the various models. I attached the table to this post. The pressure for my model 24 is 26 psi front and 28 psi rear. I adjusted my tire pressures accordingly and took her for a test run. I really didn’t notice any difference as it still wobbled around the 35 mph speed although the ride may have been a little softer. Leif I think you are onto something. My Reference Book says the camber should be set at 1-1/8” for each tire for a total of 2-1/4”. I did a quick check and found 1/4” camber in the left tire (this is the side that wobbles) and 1/2” on the right tire. I have an old Bear Service alignment rod I used to set the toe so I am pretty sure the tie in is okay but I would have to have an alignment shop bend the I beam. The Reference Book says the camber may be out of spec if the I beam or a spindle is bent. I am a little nervous to have a shop bend my axle back to spec as they may break it. It would be nice to eliminate the wobble but not sure the risk of breaking my axle is worth it. Any advice?

Hello everyone- Okay I used a 4x4 as Grimy posted to measure the runout at all 4 sides. Here are the measurement in inches; Left Front 0.38 (this is the wheel with the wobble) Right front 0.22 Left Rear 0.18 Right Rear 0.28 The next thing I did was try and reduce the high spot on the left front by Grimy’s method. After a couple tries I managed to reduce the runout on the left front to 0.27” from 0.38”. I figured this was as good as I can get so I took the front tires to Firestone and had them balanced. The front right wheel took only 2.5 oz. The left front wheel took only 2.7 oz. Not bad at all! Attached is a photo of the front left wheel in the spin balance. You can really see the wobble when its going around… Got back to my shop and mounted the wheels, aired the 6.00-22 Lester tires to 32 psi, then took her out for a test drive. Interesting, I didn’t notice any improvement after reducing the runout on the front left wheel and balancing the front tires. It’s not bad with just a slight noticeable wobble at 35 - 40 mph. I increased the speed to 45 - 50 mph and she ran very nice with less wobble than at 35 - 40 mph; really not much at all. Leif- I reduced the wobble on the front left wheel before I addressed the runout using Grimy’s method. I did this by loosening all the 6 lug nuts and then very slowly tightening each lug nut in a crisis-cross pattern. After each pass I used a large rubber mallet to apply a hard whack every couple of inches around the rim trying to encourage it to seat to the wheel. I think the rim was not installed correctly so when I loosened the 6 lug nuts I noticed the rim kind of “popped” a little bit. I suspect the runout was a lot but unfortunately I didn’t measure it. It’s good to know that these are not split-rims. I was a little concerned because when I helped my dad install the tires he put the tire and wheel under an arm on his 2-post car lift. He didn’t have a cage so I assumed he was using the lift arm as a safety device in case the rim came apart when he aired it up. So is it safe to air up a demountable rim without any safety concerns or precautions that it could come apart under pressure? I was going to swap the left rear wheel with the front left because the left rear had the smallest amount of runout. But to do this I would have to install the front wheel bearing in the rear wheel- correct? Hugh- you mentioned that the rear wheels don't have a counter weight opposite the valve stem. Does this mean the rear wheels are not interchangeable with the front wheels? I really didn’t want to tackle removing the front and rear left tires to swap them around to see if I could get some more improvement. Since I didn’t get any improvement when I reduced the runout on the front left to 0.27 from 0.38 I decided this was good enough. My main concern was to reduce the wobble enough so I could drive the car at 45 - 50 mph for about a 5 mile stretch. I want to take the Buick on a 200 mile RT drive on the back roads and CO US6 where the speed limits are 35 - 45 mph. However, there is a stretch of I-70 that is posted 65 mph that I have to take. The CHP said I have to maintain a speed of 45 mph to be legal on the interstate. I think I can do that now. The engine just ran great and purred along at 45 - 50 mph during my short test drive. I normally drive her at 35 mph or less. Hope 45 - 50 mph isn’t to fast for her? What do you think? Ken

Hi everyone- Hope all is well and everyone had a wonderful 4th of July holiday. I took my 25-24 Buick in our local town’s parade- lots of fun. I noticed my front left wheel had a terrible wobble that at 35 mph or greater would shake the heck out of my steering wheel. So I thought I would try and turn the rim 180 degrees to see if that would help. I removed the 6 lug nuts and the rim loosened up but I could not turn it. I couldn’t even take it off the wheel. I think the mechanism that holds the split rim together is preventing it from coming off. I am a little concerned about working on a split rim so thought I would ask for some expert advice on how to safely remove the rim and tire =-). Seems like a simple task but I don't want to force it off. I have the same issue with trying to remove the spare tire/rim from the mount. When I tightened the rim back on the wheel I used a criss-cross pattern when tightening the lugs nuts. I slowly tightened each lug nut until they were all very snug but probably less than 90 ft-lbs. I could not find any guidance in the shop manual so does anyone know what the torque spec are for the lugs nuts? The wheel does not shake and wobble after I tightened the lugs evenly. There is a slight wobble but I am going to have the tire balanced and hopefully that will go away. So I think 90% of the wobble problem was solved by slowly tightening the lug nuts in a crisis-cross pattern. I really don’t have any experience with these split rim tires so please advise me if there is a better way to tighten the rims on the wheel. I read in the shop manual that you can measure the run out of the wheel on the felloe band (not on the tire or rim). The run out should be no more than 5/32”. The problem I see is that the 6 studs for the lug nuts are centered around the felloe band. So how can you setup a micrometer on the felloe band if the studs are in the way? Thanks, Ken

Hugh - The dimensions listed above in the parts book for the 1925 standard shedder felt are the same dimensions that you provided me from your notes. So the dimensions I gave Olsen’s are correct. I think the shedder was just to tight to ‘weasel’ them in without deforming the felt. If I could have separated the shedder then I could have installed the felt without distorting it but I wasn’t confident I could R/R the shedder pieces without damaging it. The snow melted last week enough that gave me an opportunity to drive the car and test the seal. It was in the low 40s so not too cold. So far no oil has leaked out of the drain tube so I think it is working. I would have had a lot of oil on the floor with the old seal for the distance I drove it. So far so good! Thanks, Ken

All- I ordered the 3/16” thick brass impregnated brake lining from McMasters. It was 1 1/4” wide which is 1/8” less than the specification calls but that shouldn’t be a problem for a hand brake. I borrowed a rivet jig from a friend that fits in a vice. Not as fancy as Larry’s antique riveting machine but was easy to use and did a good job. It has a punch to remove the old rivets, a countersink drill bit and a clinch tool. I set my drill press to countersink the holes about 50%. The countersink bit was the perfect size and worked well. I obtained 4/4 brass rivets from Hanson’s which turned out to be the perfect size. They fit the existing holes in my brake band and was the same diameter as the countersink bit. I cleaned up the old bands, painted them, installed the new lining and back on the car. It’s so nice to have a hand brake that works as it should. Thanks everyone for helping me with this project. It was easier than expected because of your help. Ken

All- I received my new felt seals from Olson Gaskets and did the best I could to ‘weasel’ them in the shedder. The felt bunched up a bit at one end but it should work okay. If not, I am going to install a modern seal that Hugh has a procedure for. I replaced the felt seal on both axles. The other shedder is spot welded like Larry’s and the dimensions of the after market shedder is the same. I installed the wheel and torqued it to 220 ft/lbs and bent over a tab to lock the nut in place on the axle. Larry - Thanks for making those locking washers for the axle. They worked perfectly. Neither of my axles had a washer when I removed the hub. Also the axle nut was definitely not torqued to 220 ft/lbs when I removed them. It took very little force with the hub puller to remove the hubs. Hopefully nothing was damaged from the axle nut not torqued properly. Thanks everyone for helping me with this project. Ken

Hugh- That’s awesome you have NOS shedders. Cool box. I’ll forward the dimensions of your original felt seals to Olson’s. They are slightly different that what I had so I really appreciate you taking the time to dig out your measurements. Nothing surprises me anymore with the amount of information you have on these old cars. Just amazing! Thanks, Ken

Hugh- You’re right…I am going to replace the service brake lining at the same time I replace my E-brake lining. I called Bob’s and got his service manager. I told him the felt seal they sent me was too small to fit over the hub. He said it was the right seal and I could return it. I asked him if he saw the photos I sent him of the dimensions of the seal and hub and he could see it’s not correct for the standard and was probably a front axle seal. He told me he doesn’t get Bob’s email and was too busy to check and to just return them! Geez…..what terrible service. I called Olson’s gasket and got just the opposite response. Very happy to help me. All they need are the dimensions and they will make me a pair of felt seals (same price as Bob’s). I am thinking I need a seal that is 0.40” thick with an ID of 2.5” and an OD of 2.75”. Hugh- do you happen to have the dimensions for the rear axle seal? Thanks, Ken

Hugh/Larry- Thanks for your help. I have all the information I need to replace the brake lining. I have a friend that says he has an old rivet machine but may not have the tooling I need. He also has a small vice rivet tool but I think it is for Model As. He is out of town so I wont be able to look at the until next week. In any case I am on the right track thanks to you. Ken

Larry- Thanks for the clarification. I misunderstood the diagram Hugh posted from Hansons rivets that show dimensions of the 5/6 brass rivet. What is not shown in the diagram is the total length under the head. I went to the Hanson website and see that the length under the head for the 5/6 rivet is 3/8”. The 0.125” shown in the posted diagram is the length of the hole. I also see that the 4/4 rivet total length under the head is 1/4” and the length of the hole is also 0.125”. If my brake material liner is 3/16” thick and I need to countersink 1/2 the thickness would give me a drill depth of 3/32” (0.097). My brake liner is about 0.06”. So the length of the rivet under the head to the bottom of the brake band would be close to 0.157”. Adding the length of rivet that needs to be clinched would be the total length of the rivet that I would need. A 4/4 rivet would give me about 0.1” to clinch and a 4/6 or 5/6 rivet would give me about 0.2”. I think I might be overthinking this….. Ken

Larry- I am pretty sure my shedder gasket was not working. I also had oil on my service brake bands. I am trying to clean them off with an engine degreaser and brake cleaner. They are cleaning up but I don’t have any idea how much oil is still soaked into the bands. Maybe after I get them back on the car and heat them up a couple times with some firm stops will help. If I can rivet new E-brake bands on without any issues then I am thinking I should put new bands on the service brakes as well. Still no word from Bob’s about the felt seals…. Ken

Larry - Did you use the original holes in the metal backing late for the new rivets or did you rivet the new liner in the original rivet holes? Ken

Larry- That’s encouraging. I haven’t heard back from Bobs so I don’t have the correct size felt seal yet. I don’t want to remove the old seal until I have the replacement. I noticed the 6 bolts that hold the shedder on the drum were not very tight. Probably just a little more than finger tight. Since the shedder and cork gasket were not tight on the drum I had oil all over my brake liner and drum. I am thinking it’s possible my felt seal might be okay since we know it had been replaced with an aftermarket shedder and seal. If the ID of the new seal is the same as the ID of the old seal then I’ll try replacing the cork shedder gasket and tighten the bolts. Maybe that will solve my leaking oil problem? Ken