1913 Abbott Detroit Roadster Pictures (Finally!) Help with Valuation??

[Deborah Leas]

This is a follow up to last year's post requesting valuation info on my (deceased) father's 1913 Abbott Detroit Roadster (previously referred to as a Speedster. It is a Roadster as declared in the Nebraska title).  I have finally figured out how to post pictures to this forum (thanks for your requests and patience.)

This car became my father's in the 40's and he lovingly restored it over several decades.  It's been in our family nearly 80 years.   This car was actively used during my father's club days and forefronted many parades, as recently as two years ago.  

It has been stored carefully over the years and is in remarkably good condition.   

 

Can attach more pictures in another message, space here is limited to these photos.   Thank you for any input offered!

 

 

 

Acetylene tank for headlights ... the quality/craftsmanship of the brass controls is remarkable.  Their operation is flawless.

 

Right-hand drive ... leather tufted cushions in excellent shape (hand-sewn by my mother).

 

Continental engine with name plate showing 4-digit VIN matching title.

 

 

Its hard to believe these wooden wheels are over 100 years old ...

 

Gas tank and leather trunk.

 

 

[auburnseeker]

Unfortunately I don't have a value for you,  but had to comment on how big these old cars like this are when you actually see a person in the photo with them.  By themselves,  you think small car like the size of a T but with you in the picture to put it in perspective it looks huge, which is really cool.  It will be interesting to see what the more knowledgable members come up with for a value.  

I didn't follow the other thread.  Is it something that will eventually be sold, or is the evaluation strictly for estate purposes? 

[alsancle]

That is neat.   Go here:  http://www.tomlaferriere.com/

Call or email Tom.  He is an expert on early speedsters and knows the market better than anyone.  He's a good guy and can give you valuable advice. 

Edited October 4, 2019 by alsancle (see edit history)

[edinmass]

It’s a cute car, but a narrow market. While lots of fun, and it looks nice, the value will probably be lower than the family is thinking. There are LOTS of correct intact cars on the market, so any car that’s been modified is going to suffer a price adjustment. Good luck with the sale.

[alsancle]

What Ed is saying is true,  but Tom will be able to give you a real idea of market.    In general,  all of our cars are worth much less than what we think and hope.   Even the guys that know what they are doing are usually surprised at what they can eventually sell their cars for.

[mercer09]

25k

[AHa]

You guys keep saying this but did you know a red 1914 Locomobile speedster sold for over 200K recently? Something like 230-240? Does that sound like a soft market to you? It wasn't even a a true 1914 chassis. It was something like a 1920 chassis made up into a speedster with a 1914 look and no false advertising. The guy said it was a 1920 chassis. I did notice where an earlier Locomobile was bought at auction for $130 and sold two years later for 80. That goes back a few years.

 

The question really is whether this is a made up speedster or factory roadster. She said roadster as if it were a factory body. Either way it is an Abbott Detroit and not a cheap car. Its a shame its missing the radiator emblem. Wasn't there one for sale recently? I believe it would be worth tracking it down.

 

Certain cars seem to be holding their value quite well while others are dropping but some cars never have been hot sellers. They have always been easy to get into and hard to get out of so how much has really changed?

[nzcarnerd]

4 hours ago, AHa said:

You guys keep saying this but did you know a red 1914 Locomobile speedster sold for over 200K recently? Something like 230-240? Does that sound like a soft market to you? It wasn't even a a true 1914 chassis. It was something like a 1920 chassis made up into a speedster with a 1914 look and no false advertising. The guy said it was a 1920 chassis. I did notice where an earlier Locomobile was bought at auction for $130 and sold two years later for 80. That goes back a few years.

 

The question really is whether this is a made up speedster or factory roadster. She said roadster as if it were a factory body. Either way it is an Abbott Detroit and not a cheap car. Its a shame its missing the radiator emblem. Wasn't there one for sale recently? I believe it would be worth tracking it down.

 

Certain cars seem to be holding their value quite well while others are dropping but some cars never have been hot sellers. They have always been easy to get into and hard to get out of so how much has really changed?

 

In 1914 a new Locomobile started at around $4500. A large and expensive car - 132" wheelbase and about 400(?) cubic inches. In comparison the Abbot-Detroit started at about $1700 and is a much smaller car - 116" wheelbase and maybe 200+ cid(??). 

 

Also most car enthusiasts know the Locomobile name. Fewer will have heard of Abbot-Detroit.

[trimacar]

I'm pretty much in agreement with what's been said.  Cute car, the smallest chassis A-B offered being a 4 cylinder 30 HP car.  What can only be described as a boring looking engine, which makes a difference to some people.  From what I've researched, not a factory body, so a home built speedster.

 

I think 25k is all the money....

[alsancle]

When it comes to speedsters,  I assume conversion without strong evidence to the contrary.    I'm right about 1000% of the time.

 

As for the market,  beware the far and few between exceptions.   In general it is very hard to sell a car right now.

[AHa]

2 hours ago, alsancle said:

When it comes to speedsters,  I assume conversion without strong evidence to the contrary.    I'm right about 1000% of the time.

 

 

Can you explain this statement a bit more. I have no idea what you're trying to communicate.

 

As to my prior statements, there is no question some owners are struggling to sell their cars but it has always been so. Perhaps it is more widespread at the moment, but I think the problem is not just cars. Not much of anything seems to be selling as it has in the past. In the past with a roaring economy and low interest rate and low unemployment, you could sell anything but this generation has been through 2008 and know first hand how easy it is to be caught with possessions but no money and no way to convert possessions to money. Perhaps our society is transitioning from a consumer society to something different. I'm just waiting for the early T head cars like Locomobile to come down into my price range, then, I don't care if the value ever goes back up.

[Matt Harwood]

4 minutes ago, AHa said:

I have no idea what you're trying to communicate.

 

I think he's saying that made-up cars don't bring as much as real cars and that this speedster (like 99.99% of them) is most likely a home-made affair. He's also suggesting that small cars with obscure names don't bring as much as big horsepower cars with well-known names.

This is a neat little car that's probably a lot of fun, but any home-made speedster won't bring anywhere near what a factory-built version would bring or even what another Abbott-Detroit with a factory body would bring.

[AHa]

Thankyou

[auburnseeker]

Curious while nothing to do with value,  what was a car like this capable of,  speed wise?  Normal touring,  not just fast bursts? Rear brakes only?   Just trying to get an education here as my prewar Knowledge is pretty limited with anything earlier than the late 20's. 

Unlike people that seem to liek newer cars the older they get or stuff they grew up with, I'm 45,  I tend to find myself drawn to earlier and earlier stuff. 

[Matt Harwood]

I bet it cruises pretty well at 40 MPH or so, but it probably feels like 90!

[trimacar]

I may have missed it, is the car currently running and driving?

[auburnseeker]

2 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

I bet it cruises pretty well at 40 MPH or so, but it probably feels like 90!

That's what I was thinking being that high up and all open.  MAybe that's what draws me to the earlier stuff.  I'm not so interested in closed cars as open stuff from this era so it's more the spirit of speed and early motoring.

[PFindlay]

Auburnseeker, and others ... if you're interested in brass-era cars I encourage you to connect with someone who will take you out for a ride in one.  Or better still, let you drive it.   Driving a brass era car is like nothing else.  You're right - 40 mph might as well be 90, and a 75 mile drive is like 300 in your modern car, but it's a thrill a minute.  You get to experience the sights, sounds, and smells of the world around you at a comfortable 30 - 40mph speed.  And almost everyone you pass smiles, waves, and takes a picture.   For me, a big part of it is the mechanical "man and machine" thing.  You can see moving parts under the hood and you hear everything and must constantly listen for anything unusual.  You're in charge of timing advance, proper shifting (may take some learning) and, yes, some of us still crank our cars to start them.  And anytime you arrive home under your own power, you feel great.  There's nothing else like it in the car hobby.  A pre-16 tour is a ton of fun and an amazing sight for anyone lucky enough to be standing on the curb when 20 or more brass cars show up unannounced.

 

I have a 20s car (an Auburn, actually) and a 30s car, but my first choice is always one of the brass-era cars.  If you ever get out to the west coast of Canada, come see me and we'll go for a ride.

Peter, Burnaby, British Columbia.

[edinmass]

On 10/5/2019 at 5:19 PM, AHa said:

You guys keep saying this but did you know a red 1914 Locomobile speedster sold for over 200K recently? Something like 230-240? Does that sound like a soft market to you? It wasn't even a a true 1914 chassis. It was something like a 1920 chassis made up into a speedster with a 1914 look and no false advertising. The guy said it was a 1920 chassis. I did notice where an earlier Locomobile was bought at auction for $130 and sold two years later for 80. That goes back a few years.

 

The question really is whether this is a made up speedster or factory roadster. She said roadster as if it were a factory body. Either way it is an Abbott Detroit and not a cheap car. Its a shame its missing the radiator emblem. Wasn't there one for sale recently? I believe it would be worth tracking it down.

 

Certain cars seem to be holding their value quite well while others are dropping but some cars never have been hot sellers. They have always been easy to get into and hard to get out of so how much has really changed?

 

 

A 1914 Series 48 Loco with a real factory turret body speedster is cheap at 240. I recently saw a true factory speed car sell for well over a million dollars. There is a formula on how to place a value on a brass car.........too many details, but part of the equation is:

 

displacement * horse power * chassis length * body style * chain drive * year * manufacturer * drivability * brakes * and most cars don’t need that much detail or evaluation. If it’s not a 40 hp plus car with provenance it’s not going to be much money.

[89tc]

Dam, it's all about the money.. Grandpa died yesterday so how much can we dump his car for today..... We need a new Lexus and a Carnival cruise....Very sad.... The Lexus will be in the junkyard in five years, the cruise will be nothing but a distant memory, and grandpas car of eighty years is no longer...

[AHa]

Value is a relative thing. To some people on this forum 1.5 million is  not much money, to others, its more money than they will see in a lifetime. The OP made no reference to value and only asked for a fair evaluation. We don't know if the prescribed $25,000 was judged to be fair or not. We don't know if she expected to get $300,000 out of the car or $3,000. I was really surprised to see that a 1920 Locomobile; rebodied as a 1915 speedster, brought $240,000. Original cars bring good money when restored correctly relative to the make. In other words, a T model restored to the top will bring top dollar comparative to other T models. When considering T models, one that brings top dollar is considered to be a high dollar car though it will be below $50,000. Its all relative.

[broker-len]

Pretty Girl,,,,,,I guess that is Deborah    !!!!!

[1912Staver]

On 10/6/2019 at 7:15 PM, PFindlay said:

Auburnseeker, and others ... if you're interested in brass-era cars I encourage you to connect with someone who will take you out for a ride in one.  Or better still, let you drive it.   Driving a brass era car is like nothing else.  You're right - 40 mph might as well be 90, and a 75 mile drive is like 300 in your modern car, but it's a thrill a minute.  You get to experience the sights, sounds, and smells of the world around you at a comfortable 30 - 40mph speed.  And almost everyone you pass smiles, waves, and takes a picture.   For me, a big part of it is the mechanical "man and machine" thing.  You can see moving parts under the hood and you hear everything and must constantly listen for anything unusual.  You're in charge of timing advance, proper shifting (may take some learning) and, yes, some of us still crank our cars to start them.  And anytime you arrive home under your own power, you feel great.  There's nothing else like it in the car hobby.  A pre-16 tour is a ton of fun and an amazing sight for anyone lucky enough to be standing on the curb when 20 or more brass cars show up unannounced.

 

I have a 20s car (an Auburn, actually) and a 30s car, but my first choice is always one of the brass-era cars.  If you ever get out to the west coast of Canada, come see me and we'll go for a ride.

Peter, Burnaby, British Columbia.

 

I second that !! Peter gave me a chance to drive his 4 Cyl Cadillac last year and it was a dream come true. I have been a brass car fan for most of my life; and an owner of parts, projects, hopes and dreams, for about 25 years ,but I have never owned a running , driving example. The experience of actually driving one is as Peter says, like no other era of automobile .

 

Greg in Canada

Edited March 15, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[auburnseeker]

I wouldn't mind finding something like this if reasonable one day.  even if not fully correct as long as pretty close to just tool around with. Would be fun to drive up town and beat around on a nice day. 

[PFindlay]

 

I guess reasonable is a relative term, but the market for lower and mid-range brass cars seems to be slower now than previously.  And with the current market situation it's not likely to pick up. 

 

But, my point is about this:

2 hours ago, auburnseeker said:

 Would be fun to drive up town and beat around on a nice day. 

 

Yes, but even better to tour with.  Brass tours are usually not too demanding and often make use of a trouble truck, so go for it!  Most of us have ended up on the trailer at some point.  The back roads are the place to be for a great driving experience.  Driving in town can be more stressful, given brakes, lights, traffic, etc.

Peter

[auburnseeker]

Depends on the town I guess.  We have 4 lights, of which you can actually avoid every one of them,  then you are out on an open rd. Now if i was out where my brother in law lives, farm country, you could drive all day on back roads and see little traffic but some nice scenery as it's pretty hilly with lots of forest mixed in with all the corn fields. I told my wife I wished we live in that area but she hates the farm atmosphere though she grew up on one and likes the touristy atmosphere of this area.  If you search around where we are,  there are some pretty neat roads to drive.  The only down fall is when cars get behind you as there are alot of houses scattered even in the middle of nowhere,  some don't have good passing or much of a shoulder to pull on .  Used to have a few drives I really liked in my hometown but haven't found quite the same ones here yet. 

The end of our drive you either turn left and go into town or turn right and climb atleast 1000 feet of a steep grade road.  So you need good power and good brakes.  Test drives around here are interesting,  the first time out.  I usually make a few trips down our long driveway and a short zip across the road then turn around and come back up as we have a good hill even on our drive.  Gives me a good feel for the car to start with.  Better than my old shop where you were on a 2 lane highway which immediately turns into a 4 lane passing zone with cars zipping by at 65 in both directions for the first time trying to bring your fresh car up to speed and through the gears. 

[PFindlay]

Sounds like you're in a great area for brass-era driving.    I'm also on a big hill, so when I go out the driveway it's either up or down to start with.  Test drives I always go up, and there have been a few times where I have coasted back down just fast enough to make the turn right and get up into my driveway.  I think it's something I picked up from my dad.  He always amazed me at how he'd roll any sort of broken down car down the hill to his place and make the tight turn into his driveway with enough speed to bump his way along the driveway and right into his garage.   He had lots of practice!

[1912Staver]

Peter, you should think about making the move South East. South Surrey, South Langley are much more Brass Car friendly. Bigger yards, easier access to quieter roads, nice scenery. I weighed quite a few factors

when I decided South Langley was my best all round Lower Mainland location. It's been a very slow process given all the cost hiccups of Lower Mainland living but slowly the pieces are coming together.

 

Greg