'41 engine compartment details

[carbking]

One additional comment about carburetor finishes.

 

Maybe 25 years ago, we were approached by an owner of one of the  "Classics" to restore his carburetor for an upcoming prestigeous  auto show, one that was invitation only.  Cost was absolutely no object. The carbuetor was a Stromberg. I pulled all the prints and did a meticulous restoration. The day after the show, I got a call from an extremely irate customer. The chief judge, who happened to be the leading authority on this make of car (his father and uncle had worked at the factory, and another relative was a dealer) docked my customer a point because I had painted the automatic choke housing. That point was enough to drop him from first to third. I offered to send him a copy of the drawing, which I did. About a month later, I got a call that, after showing the judge the original drawing, the judge allowed as maybe it was possible that he could be wrong; but by then it was too late to change the order of finish. He was invited to return next year.

 

The point being: IF ONE IS PLANNING TO SHOW THE CAR IN A JUDGED COMPETITION, THE CRITERIA BEING USED BY THE JUDGING AUTHORITY IS ALWAYS RIGHT, EVEN IF IT IS INCORRECT! So if someone is planning to show their car, disregard my comments concerning carburetor finish, and use what it being accepted.

 

Jon.

[Matt Harwood]

7 minutes ago, carbking said:

One additional comment about carburetor finishes.

 

Maybe 25 years ago, we were approached by an owner of one of the  "Classics" to restore his carburetor for an upcoming prestigeous  auto show, one that was invitation only.  Cost was absolutely no object. The carbuetor was a Stromberg. I pulled all the prints and did a meticulous restoration. The day after the show, I got a call from an extremely irate customer. The chief judge, who happened to be the leading authority on this make of car (his father and uncle had worked at the factory, and another relative was a dealer) docked my customer a point because I had painted the automatic choke housing. That point was enough to drop him from first to third. I offered to send him a copy of the drawing, which I did. About a month later, I got a call that, after showing the judge the original drawing, the judge allowed as maybe it was possible that he could be wrong; but by then it was too late to change the order of finish. He was invited to return next year.

 

The point being: IF ONE IS PLANNING TO SHOW THE CAR IN A JUDGED COMPETITION, THE CRITERIA BEING USED BY THE JUDGING AUTHORITY IS ALWAYS RIGHT, EVEN IF IT IS INCORRECT! So if someone is planning to show their car, disregard my comments concerning carburetor finish, and use what it being accepted.

 

Jon.

 

Sad but true. Nobody can know all things about any car, let along many cars. It's the limitation of all judging and why it comes down to a beauty contest more often than not.

[Lawrence Helfand]

N

12 hours ago, neil morse said:

 

OK, so I'm a liar and made this all up.  I invite you to speak to Doug yourself and get back to me.  I assure you I did not misunderstand him.  He has been quoted in another thread as having said the same thing, which is one of the reasons I wanted to speak to him personally.  I know that Anderson disagrees.  I have his book, and I also have a personal email from him in which he insists that the panels were actually engraved.  I asked Doug about what Anderson said, and his immediate response was, "He's wrong."  I understand we can disagree about how these panels were created at the factory, but please don't accuse me of misrepresenting what Doug said.  I don't have the definitive answer, but I assure you that I have accurately repeated what Doug told me.

 

The panels on my car have not been "buffed smooth" (although we see a lot of cars where this is the case).  On the contrary, there are just a few places where someone seems to have "polished" through the decal.  (See photo.)  You can see in this photo the clear demarcation between where the pattern exists and where it has been removed.  This is why Doug's explanation makes sense to me.  If the panels were actually engraved, I don't think there would be such a clear line between "pattern" and "no pattern."

 

Nobody called you a liar except you. What I said was figurative surprise not literal  accusation. Looks to me from the photo of your dash panel that someone used a buffing wheel and some aggressive buffing compound to remove some rusting and blew right through the pattern which is easy to do if you put a machine buffer to it . It also looks like the lacquer coating got hot along the edge and browned from the buffer heat which you dont see on my photo where the edge is just flaked away with age in a fractal pattern. Thats just what I see from your pic. If you look at the photo I posted you can see the lacquer stripped back by age and the un coated raw steel top section still has a pattern. Also I dont know how you could get a decal to conform to the surface of such a complex shape. The only technology for that in 1941 would have been in ceramic manufacturing my collage major where you have a printed   silica and color oxide decal applied with a special shaped applicator and then high fired to a vitreous glaze easily conforming to the curves and bends of a form. On My 1941 Buick four door parts car now in Poland I stripped the remaining lacquer from the dash panels with lacquer thinner so I could remove the oxidation from the bare areas with a mild solution of phosphoric acid and finishing with a hand rubbed Flitz polishing paste. Came out pretty good and I did not lose the pattern to much but some areas became fainter from working it where there was rust pitting. I finished it with rattle can clear lacquer for a decent result. I have had several dash panels to resurrect in the pursuit of finding a better set for my Century sedanette and found them all to suffer from the same condition and have not seen any display a smooth un turned surface where the coating has come off. I still find it hard to believe Doug thinks decals were applied having never seen any evidence of one myself. I would expect after forty years of industrial arts restoration work I could tell the difference. But all that said I am open to evidence of being wrong about the technique for this finishing process. Sorry you were offended Neil none was intended. 

[valk]

Just when I thought we had it....just got through speaking with Bill Anderson. He notes engines were tested before painting but not with using the engine fuel pump (and they are not red).  Engines were fed gas with some external source and if everything checked out, the block was painted and fuel pump installed.  What is not exactly clear is whether the fuel lines were installed but not hooked up  when the engine was tested and then painted.   Bill does not know definitively but suspects they were not. The picture of the Century red lines look factory correct in that they are shaped the right way, not bent, and have a clip holding them together - not an easy do-it-yourself look.  Not trying to pick a fight here, but I did notice Lawrence's pushrod cover is painted black and if this is not correct, and I don't beleive it is, than someone did some creative painting somewhere along the line. The fuel lines also look like they have been removed or at least moved around a bit and not in perfect factory configuration, like the Century, and this somewhat diminishes the argument that they were originally painted .  Conclusion: no definitive proof either way and one can point to evidence on both sides but the argument for leaving them unpainted seems a bit stronger in my view (until something changes). That said, either way would have to be acceptable from a judges POV.  

 

Issue #2 dash finish. Bill and some-other-guy-he-did-not -name are actively working on determining how these were done.  Preliminary findings are they were machine-turned and the process was complex starting with polished metal, machine turning the design, and either yellow or green tinted laquer or finish depending on the car. I'm just going to wait for his results.  If they were decals, you would think some enterprising restorer would make repros. 

 

Lastly, I'm surprised that we don't know more about these great cars and I urge fellow members to remember we are all after the same thing.

Peter

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 1, 2019 by valk (see edit history)

[Lawrence Helfand]

4 minutes ago, valk said:

Just when I thought we had it....just got through speaking with Bill Anderson. He notes engines were tested before painting but not with using the engine fuel pump (and they are not red).  Engines were fed gas with some external source and if everything checked out, the block was painted and fuel pump installed.  What is not exactly clear is whether the fuel lines were installed but not hooked up  when the engine was tested and then painted.   Bill does not know definitively but suspects they were not. The picture of the Century red lines look factory correct in that they are shaped the right way, not bent, and have a clip holding them together - not an easy do-it-yourself look.  Not trying to pick a fight here, but I did notice Lawrence's pushrod cover is painted black and if this is not correct, and I don't beleive it is, than someone did some creative painting somewhere along the line. The fuel lines also look like they have been removed or at least moved around a bit and not in perfect factory configuration, like the Century, and this somewhat diminishes the argument that they were originally painted .  Conclusion: no definitive proof either way and one can point to evidence on both sides but the argument for leaving them unpainted seems a bit stronger in my view (until something changes). That said, either way would have to be acceptable from a judges POV.  

 

Issue #2 dash finish. Bill and some-other-guy-he-did-not -name are actively working on determining how these were done.  Preliminary findings are they were machine-turned and the process was complex starting with polished metal, machine turning the design, and either yellow or green tinted laquer or finish depending on the car. I'm just going to wait for his results.  If they were decals, you would think some enterprising restorer would make repros. 

 

Lastly, I'm surprised that we don't know more about these great cars and I urge fellow members to remember we are all after the same thing.

Peter

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Peter the reason my valve cover is black is because It was swapped out for the red original that was slightly warped and I never got around to painting it red. The one it came with was red. My side cover was black when I got it. The mileage on the car when I bought it was around 27,000 miles with a ton of dirt covering the lines. The service record showed no engine work ever performed outside of a tuneup and oil change in 1963. Five years later in was stored for 45 years and I bought it soon afterwards in untouched condition. My un restored 1941 Century four door parts car was exactly the same with red paint covering fuel and vacuum lines. I could see the factory using a remote fuel source but of course they must have plugged the drive arm hole to retain engine oil. Perhaps they installed the compression nuts and flared the line after testing explaining why they show no paint. 

[neil morse]

16 minutes ago, Lawrence Helfand said:

Sorry you were offended Neil none was intended. 

 

Thanks, Lawrence, and I'm sorry I got a little hot under the collar, but again I assure you that Doug firmly believes that a decal was used.  I don't know whether or not he's correct, I'm just saying that his theory makes sense to me given the look of my dash.  I certainly respect your opinions and your qualifications, but your debate is really with Doug, not me.  Since he's probably stripped and refinished more of these than anyone on the planet, you would think he would know, but perhaps not.

 

15 minutes ago, valk said:

Issue #2 dash finish. Bill and some-other-guy-he-did-not -name are actively working on determining how these were done.  Preliminary findings are they were machine-turned and the process was complex starting with polished metal, machine turning the design, and either yellow or green tinted laquer or finish depending on the car.

 

Peter, I didn't mean to hijack your thread by raising this other issue, but it's something I've been curious about for a long time.  That's interesting that Bill told you he was working on it because I just sent him an email last week telling him what Doug Seybold had told me regarding the decal, and asking him whether there was anything in the Buick Heritage Alliance library that could answer the question more definitively.  I didn't mean to precipitate a battle of the Titans between Buick experts, but I hope that there are some documents or photos concerning what was actually done at the factory.

[valk]

Not at all my friend. I do feel like the ball at a Chinese pingpong tournament. After Lawrence's post, I'm back to leaning toward red lines being right...

 

 

 

 

 

[MCHinson]

Since dash finishing has been brought up in this discussion, I will add a bit of information.

 

I should probably keep my mouth shut since I have no experience with 1941 Buicks personally, but I would offer that there could have been multiple suppliers of dash panels or multiple methods of finishing them back in the day. There is also a good chance that some may have been refinished or restored many years ago and might not have been finished as was done in the factory. I do know that there were DiNoc decals or transfers used on Buick dashes in 1937 and 1938. This has been documented from multiple sources. For some interesting reading, concerning DyNoc decals or transfers, check pages 14-16 of this issue of the Torque Tube at the following link. This came from 1939-1940 Fisher Body Service Manual, so it is not specific to 1941 Buicks but it does show that the technology existed before 1941. 

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1h25PPynyAZJrmFe0G6zPLSvpk5wf4S62/view?usp=sharing

Edited August 16, 2019 by MCHinson (see edit history)

[Daves1940Buick56S]

Just to muddy things up more....on my 1940 56S the panel is definitely DyNoc. It has started to peel down on the bottom edge and you can clearly see that where it has peeled off it is just smooth metal. Bits of plastic are still hanging at the edges of the peeled area so it easy to see it's DyNoc or some other type of decal. Fortunately it cannot be easily seen by the driver or those outside the car! This is not to say anything about other cars but this is what mine has. Eventually I will send the panel and glovebox door to Doug....

 

Cheers, Dave

Edited August 2, 2019 by Daves1940Buick56S (see edit history)

[Daves1940Buick56S]

Also I was researching the '38 dash to try to see if/how I can safely clean up the woodgraining. Like Matt said, the manual clearly states the dash woodgraining is a transfer decal that is put on before the dash is stamped with clear lacquer sprayed on after. I am wondering how the stamping did not stretch the decal in a way that would be visible but that is what they stated. If that is so, if decals were used on the 40/41 instrument and glovebox panels I would bet it would be done in the same manner, i.e. put on before stamping.

 

Cheers, Dave

Edited August 2, 2019 by Daves1940Buick56S (see edit history)

[Guest]

On 7/31/2019 at 10:28 PM, neil morse said:

Also, getting back to my original point, I assume you will concede that Doug's panels, while very pretty, are different than the originals.  He has created something that is "not correct," yet is accepted as such by the judges.  Regardless of how they were originally done at the factory, this is undeniable.  (See comparison below.)

 

Original glove box door

 

 

Doug Seybold glove box door

 

It would seem at first glance, that the bottom photos style of turning would be easier to reproduce or possibly less difficult would be a more accurate statement, given that none would be easy on the compound curves of the panels. Is it possible Buick had engine turned, flat panels and pressed them into shape, then also swaged them together with another panel? If you look closely at panels of the 1940 cars you can see, I think, even with my limited powers of observation, swaging around the holes where the holes for the gauges are placed in the panels. Just as a personal preference the top photo of the engine turning, which seems like what's also on aircraft panels Ive seen, is dramatically more appealing than the "straight", if you will, pattern on the lower photo. (Personal preference and subjective,  so not subject to evidencery proofs, as in judging), Maybe if someone had some documented provenance of the "straightline" pattern on an unequovically proven original car thru documentation and notory public, that would satisfy all as a judging standard, simple? Anyone?

[1940Super]

19 hours ago, carbking said:

One additional comment about carburetor finishes.

 

Maybe 25 years ago, we were approached by an owner of one of the  "Classics" to restore his carburetor for an upcoming prestigeous  auto show, one that was invitation only.  Cost was absolutely no object. The carbuetor was a Stromberg. I pulled all the prints and did a meticulous restoration. The day after the show, I got a call from an extremely irate customer. The chief judge, who happened to be the leading authority on this make of car (his father and uncle had worked at the factory, and another relative was a dealer) docked my customer a point because I had painted the automatic choke housing. That point was enough to drop him from first to third. I offered to send him a copy of the drawing, which I did. About a month later, I got a call that, after showing the judge the original drawing, the judge allowed as maybe it was possible that he could be wrong; but by then it was too late to change the order of finish. He was invited to return next year.

 

The point being: IF ONE IS PLANNING TO SHOW THE CAR IN A JUDGED COMPETITION, THE CRITERIA BEING USED BY THE JUDGING AUTHORITY IS ALWAYS RIGHT, EVEN IF IT IS INCORRECT! So if someone is planning to show their car, disregard my comments concerning carburetor finish, and use what it being accepted.

 

Jon.

I've never entered a judging competition but when I read the rules of one on this site, if I remember correctly it stated if you have evidence to support your work is correct then a judge can't rule against you. If I was to enter a competition I'd take every bit of supporting evidence with me. 

[1940Super]

15 hours ago, valk said:

Just when I thought we had it....just got through speaking with Bill Anderson. He notes engines were tested before painting but not with using the engine fuel pump (and they are not red).  Engines were fed gas with some external source and if everything checked out, the block was painted and fuel pump installed.  What is not exactly clear is whether the fuel lines were installed but not hooked up  when the engine was tested and then painted.   Bill does not know definitively but suspects they were not. The picture of the Century red lines look factory correct in that they are shaped the right way, not bent, and have a clip holding them together - not an easy do-it-yourself look.  Not trying to pick a fight here, but I did notice Lawrence's pushrod cover is painted black and if this is not correct, and I don't beleive it is, than someone did some creative painting somewhere along the line. The fuel lines also look like they have been removed or at least moved around a bit and not in perfect factory configuration, like the Century, and this somewhat diminishes the argument that they were originally painted .  Conclusion: no definitive proof either way and one can point to evidence on both sides but the argument for leaving them unpainted seems a bit stronger in my view (until something changes). That said, either way would have to be acceptable from a judges POV.  

 

Issue #2 dash finish. Bill and some-other-guy-he-did-not -name are actively working on determining how these were done.  Preliminary findings are they were machine-turned and the process was complex starting with polished metal, machine turning the design, and either yellow or green tinted laquer or finish depending on the car. I'm just going to wait for his results.  If they were decals, you would think some enterprising restorer would make repros. 

 

Lastly, I'm surprised that we don't know more about these great cars and I urge fellow members to remember we are all after the same thing.

Peter

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm curious as to why Bill paints the shocks and brake backing plates silver when in the production photo they are clearly black. I'll email and see if I get an answer.

 

I have 1940 but they are very similar so I'll mention a few details to change in your engine compartment if you are wanting to go for a completely original look. 

The clamps on the hoses. The heater isolation valve. The earth connection battery to block and the oil cap. All can be brought from Bob's or CARS except the brass isolation valve. Some missing clips on the fuel lines too.

Matthew

[valk]

Thanks Mathew.

Regarding the following,  I simply could not resist. I received my copy of Bill Anderson's "Restoration Facts 1941 Buick" today and quickly rifled through it, great stuff.  On the back cover I noticed a color picture of an engine with, don't say it, UNPAINTED FUEL LINES!! This doesn't change my position, however, that they were indeed painted from the factory. Strongest evidence to me were the pictures from 2carb40 and the neat little factory clamp that held all 3 lines together. Greg, do you have any more engine pics of that car? It's a goldmine of info...

 

Also noticed both Bill's book and Greg's pic indicate oil filter canisters should be silver on '41s. Mine is a very beautiful dark blue with an red-orange top. Where did that come from? 

Thank you. Hope this isn't getting too tedious. 

Peter

 

[Grandpa]

1941 Buick factory pictures taken at the Linden, NJ, plant.

 

[Matt Harwood]

 

I'd say those are definitely painted fuel lines, very visible on the right-most engine. Dag-nabbit.

[1940Super]

15 hours ago, valk said:

Thanks Mathew.

Regarding the following,  I simply could not resist. I received my copy of Bill Anderson's "Restoration Facts 1941 Buick" today and quickly rifled through it, great stuff.  On the back cover I noticed a color picture of an engine with, don't say it, UNPAINTED FUEL LINES!! This doesn't change my position, however, that they were indeed painted from the factory. Strongest evidence to me were the pictures from 2carb40 and the neat little factory clamp that held all 3 lines together. Greg, do you have any more engine pics of that car? It's a goldmine of info...

 

Also noticed both Bill's book and Greg's pic indicate oil filter canisters should be silver on '41s. Mine is a very beautiful dark blue with an red-orange top. Where did that come from? 

Thank you. Hope this isn't getting too tedious. 

Peter

 

I may be wrong about your oil cap as your rocker cover is plumbed into the air filter which I'll assume eliminated the need for a breather cap.

1940 Buick Service Bulletin states the  the oil filter is painted aluminum. The first 1940 filters were black and they had a seam at the bottom but there were too many reports of leaks at the seam so they eliminated the seam and changed the colour to aluminum. 

 

[Buick35]

Now I'm confused,on my 35 I was told that the valve cover and spark plug cover was supposed to be black. I left my valve cover black but painted my spark plug cover green like the engine. I like the looks of it.I'm not sure about the breather tube,it's green now.Most pictures I've seen have valve covers painted the engine color so which is correct?Does it depend on the year?Greg.

[Guest]

Edited August 10, 2019 by Guest (see edit history)

[valk]

Great pics of an original engine showing proper hose clamps, twist lines on the hoses, red fuel line, etc. Thanks Greg. 

Not to rub it in, but took this pic of a '41 at a car show today showing a remnant of red paint. It also had those neat little factory clamps holding the lines together which, again, convinced me the lines were original. 

 

Hung out with Dave Stovall and his really cool, nice '38 Century coupe with rare humungus safari driving lights. Probably a better name for these...

[Guest]

I have original clips if you need some your missing.

[Buick35]

Does the painted fuel lines only pertain to 41 Buicks? How about other pre-war Buicks,like my 35. Greg.

[Guest]

Any familiarity pretty much ends for me with 1939 being my oldest Buick. The collection I photo only has 1941 as its oldest Buick. I dont know of any 1935s around my area, let alone original enuff to provide example for that issue. Sure wish I did, Cuz I luv the style! If the oppotunity comes, Ill photo for sure!

[Daves1940Buick56S]

2 hours ago, valk said:

Great pics of an original engine showing proper hose clamps, twist lines on the hoses, red fuel line, etc. Thanks Greg. 

Not to rub it in, but took this pic of a '41 at a car show today showing a remnant of red paint. It also had those neat little factory clamps holding the lines together which, again, convinced me the lines were original. 

 

Hung out with Dave Stovall and his really cool, nice '38 Century coupe with rare humungus safari driving lights. Probably a better name for these...

 

Peter you won 3rd prize in our group! I took 2nd and Bill (next to me) took 1st.

[Dave_B]

The picture of the fuel line with a little bit of paint on it is of my unrestored '41 Special. Peter and I also found paint on the fuel line next to the air cleaner. At the nationals this year I was a judge on the team that judged the 41s. I judged the engine compartment. I did not take off for unpainted fuel lines but after reading this discussion and my own observations I don't have any choice. 

 

Cheers,

Dave

[valk]

Dave S, dang it! I'll get you next time, congrats on 2nd place....Dave B, wish I knew you were a bonifide judge,  would have been bugging you for details! See both of you at the fall Rockville show. 

Peter