'41 engine compartment details

[valk 209]

Does anybody know of a good source for '41 engine compartment details? The carb bases, for instance, are painted black in some pics and left unpainted in others.  

Thanks,

Peter

[carbking 1,220]

Carter carburetor bodies were painted black. Stromberg throttle bodies were Parkerized.

 

Jon.

[Roadmaster71 74]

If you need additional details I recommend the book Restoration Facts, 1941 Buick by Anderson.

Here is a link to the author's website: https://www.andersonautomotiveenterprises.com/publications/booksandcds.htm

 

Anybody who owns a 1941 Buick should have this book.

[valk 209]

Thank you!

[valk 209]

Been cleaning stuff up a bit under the hood - horns are next. 

[Lawrence Helfand 157]

Buick painted the motor compleatly assembled with masks on carbs etc and fuel lines were also painted red when everything was spray painted

[kgreen 1,833]

Does the underside of your hood have an insulation blanket?

[Matt Harwood 11,930]

I don't believe the '41s used insulation under the hood. It was just painted satin black.

[valk 209]

Yea, it has insullation on the underside of the hood, maybe to minimize engine noise. My concern is that it may cause overheating so I'll keep an eye on it.  So the fuel lines are red?? Don't think I've ever seen that.  Here are a couple more pics, comments more than welcome.

[valk 209]

That bent fuel line is driving me nuts - got to fix that....

[Lawrence Helfand 157]

45 minutes ago, valk said:

Yea, it has insullation on the underside of the hood, maybe to minimize engine noise. My concern is that it may cause overheating so I'll keep an eye on it.  So the fuel lines are red?? Don't think I've ever seen that.  Here are a couple more pics, comments more than welcome.

My unrestored 41 Century still has its red paint on the fuel and vacuum lines on the right side and its mostly gone on the left side. 

[valk 209]

Good to know. All the restored cars I've seen don't have painted fuel lines so I guess leaving them unpainted is acceptable. 

[Matt Harwood 11,930]

They should be natural. I'm not sure how they would have been red at the factory since lines, accessories, fuel pump, carburetors, etc. were installed after the engine was painted. Is it possible that your car, Larry, had its engine touched up at some point? Painted fuel lines don't make sense just from a production standpoint. The little vacuum and oil lines, possibly, especially the one that feeds the rockers in the head, but I can't imagine that they'd leave fuel lines hanging on the engine during paint.

[neil morse 1,579]

11 hours ago, valk said:

Here are a couple more pics, comments more than welcome.

 

My only comment is that you should definitely consider getting a spark plug cover.  It really cleans up the look of the engine.

 

[Guest]

Yes and of course you will also need the two "S" shaped sheet metal pieces that go on the stud B4 putting on the spark plug cover, cuz those are what helps secure the spark plug wires inplace inside the spark plug cover!

[Lawrence Helfand 157]

I do 

10 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

They should be natural. I'm not sure how they would have been red at the factory since lines, accessories, fuel pump, carburetors, etc. were installed after the engine was painted. Is it possible that your car, Larry, had its engine touched up at some point? Painted fuel lines don't make sense just from a production standpoint. The little vacuum and oil lines, possibly, especially the one that feeds the rockers in the head, but I can't imagine that they'd leave fuel lines hanging on the engine during paint.

I am positive my under 30K mile motor was never repainted having not been owned by a collector but by an elderly woman and had been in neglected but regular use until 1968 and then stored away for 45 years before I got it. It was caked in decades of dirt from unpaved oiled roads of the Northwest somewhat preserving the original paint.According to Anderson the motors were assembled  for testing and then painted with masking covers over exhaust manifold carbs fuel pump distributor etc. The lines on the right side of my motor are all painted all the way up and over the water pump after which they appear to go natural showing no previous paint. All the original un restored motors I have seen like the one in my Century parts car were exactly the same in this regard. Cant see Buick removing all the lines before painting so all fuel and vacuum lines close to the block got painted and those protruding from block to carbs and advance got masked and remained natural.

[valk 209]

 Thankfully, I have both the cover and the plug wire clip - I just like the look of all those plugs.  Not sure what to make of painted fuel lines, never seen any and I've been scouring pics on the internet.  And seems to be a lot of extra work covering manifolds, fuel pump, distributor, etc to paint the block. That said, this is not settled in my mind and worthy of future investigation. 

[Lawrence Helfand 157]

53 minutes ago, valk said:

 Thankfully, I have both the cover and the plug wire clip - I just like the look of all those plugs.  Not sure what to make of painted fuel lines, never seen any and I've been scouring pics on the internet.  And seems to be a lot of extra work covering manifolds, fuel pump, distributor, etc to paint the block. That said, this is not settled in my mind and worthy of future investigation. 

I suggest you get a copy of Restoration facts for 1941 Buick by William C Anderson and read page 37 . You will also find many of the answers regarding your questions about what is factory correct for your 41. 

[valk 209]

Thanks Larry, I intend to do just that. In the meantime, I'd like to see a pic of a restored or original '41 with painted fuel lines if you can find one. 

[Guest]

On 7/23/2019 at 12:49 PM, valk said:

Does anybody know of a good source for '41 engine compartment details? The carb bases, for instance, are painted black in some pics and left unpainted in others.  

Thanks,

Peter

Notice sign in front of 41 Century. It reads 4,600 actual miles!

Edited July 30, 2019 by Guest (see edit history)

[valk 209]

Well there you go - thanks Greg. Only engine with red lines I've ever seen. Maybe I can get Lawrence to tell me what else is on page 37!

Wonder why most restored engines don't paint there lines. I think leaving them natural looks better, but usually originality trumps aesthetics. 

Thanks all, mystery solved. 

Peter

[1940Super 81]

Here is a photo of an early 1941 engine restored by Bill Anderson. So they only painted the fuel lines on the red engines?

[valk 209]

Wow - lots of differences from my engine. And the top of the rear carb is painted black??  And what's that box next to the oil filter on the pushrod side cover?  

[Matt Harwood 11,930]

I don't know why the carb is painted. That seems odd. The box is the crankcase breather, which was superseded by the valve cover tube to the air cleaner (which was in turn superseded by a service bulletin instructing dealers to remove it).

 

I have to admit that I'm shocked by the sloppy work on the low-mileage car above and am a little skeptical of the mileage claims given the many obvious replacement parts on the engine and the curious way the lines themselves are painted (lines are painted but somehow fittings are not). I'm not saying painted lines are wrong, only that I think they look crummy and that those on the original car look especially crummy. That said, I understand that it's a production car and that hastily hand-bent lines were probably the norm (I recall several fellow members shiatting all over me for making nice, straight fuel lines with crisp bends on The Car Which Shall Not Be Named). I'm inclined to believe my friend Lawrence that they're painted because he knows these cars well, but I can't bring myself to look at painted lines as correct. It doesn't make sense from a production standpoint, never mind an aesthetics standpoint.

 

My suggestion is to do it the way you like. Doug Seybold's cars win every major award you can win and his lines are always bare. Anderson's cars are obviously the same. I don't chase trophies, but I will be entering my Century in judged competition when/if it is ever done and it will have bare lines simply because I like how they look. They'll also be bent with a tubing bender and be perfectly straight because that's how I like it. Right or wrong, sometimes I bend the rules in favor of personal tastes simply because the cognitive dissonance caused by crooked lines with flaking paint would be too much to bear.

 

 

[valk 209]

Matt's opinion mirrors mine in every way - well put. 

[carbking 1,220]

Carter cast iron castings were painted black with Carter's "special carburetor body paint". Probably has been obsolete for at least 60 years, but is approximately the appearance of 60 percent gloss black. This would include the cast iron top on the rear carb (if Carter).

 

Jon.

[valk 209]

I don't mean to be difficult but could you be more specific regarding what should be painted black on Carter 320 carbs?  The front carb has 3 main components:

1) the bottom section with linkage hookups and idle mix screws bolting directly to the manifold (black);

2) the main body with float (unpainted); and

3) the top cover and carb throat (unpainted). 

 

The rear carb has 4 main components:

1) the valve damper body bolting directly on top of the manifold (unpainted);

2) the bottom section with linkage hook ups and idle mix screws (black);

3) the main body with float (unpainted); and

4) the top cover with carb throat (black?)

 

Thanks.  I haven't received my Anderson '41 book yet...

Peter

[carbking 1,220]

Peter - try this link to my website:

 

Carburetor finishes

 

The lower damper assembly is not part of the carburetor. I do not know the finish.

 

Jon.

[Lawrence Helfand 157]

On 7/30/2019 at 8:34 AM, valk said:

Well there you go - thanks Greg. Only engine with red lines I've ever seen. Maybe I can get Lawrence to tell me what else is on page 37!

Wonder why most restored engines don't paint there lines. I think leaving them natural looks better, but usually originality trumps aesthetics. 

Thanks all, mystery solved. 

Peter

Here are some pics I took today showing the red paint thats still visible on my fuel and vacuum lines. There is very little left but a few spots of red. I had thought that the lines to the carb had been masked but as the photo shows on this vacuum line indeed they were not. My fuel line is covered with heat shielding but it has some paint on the bottom side as well.  I am guessing the brass compression nuts were masked with a piece of split rubber hose rather then tape for speed and cost as they would be reusable and quickly applied or perhaps they used a rubber masks for fuel pump carbs and distributor that Incorporated that feature, just a guess of course. So you can see some paint on line to advance unit ( the other lines attached are pickup wires from a Petronix) and fuel lines to carbs as well as fuel pump. I am surprised to learn that Doug Sybolds award winning cars were not done this way and my guess is the judges didnt know any better but surely Doug did. Original is whats correct and doing your own thing because you think it looks better is of course taking liberties but to then claim its original is rewriting the history of Buick production line methodology. If you are going to all the trouble of getting your car correct then it should be original which is the point of the exercise of preserving history.  My own car has many changes to improve its reliability and performance as I drive it regularly but if I ever decide to repaint my motor I will definitely paint the lines if for no other reason then to remember and preserve how Buick built their cars with fully assembled and tested engines before chassis installation. It would be pretty nice to find an original Buick mask to put on the shelf. 

[Matt Harwood 11,930]

16 minutes ago, Lawrence Helfand said:

Here are some pics I took today showing the red paint thats still visible on my fuel and vacuum lines. There is very little left but a few spots of red. I had thought that the lines to the carb had been masked but as the photo shows on this vacuum line indeed they were not. My fuel line is covered with heat shielding but it has some paint on the bottom side as well.  I am guessing the brass compression nuts were masked with a piece of split rubber hose rather then tape for speed and cost as they would be reusable and quickly applied or perhaps they used a rubber masks for fuel pump carbs and distributor that Incorporated that feature, just a guess of course. So you can see some paint on line to advance unit ( the other lines attached are pickup wires from a Petronix) and fuel lines to carbs as well as fuel pump. I am surprised to learn that Doug Sybolds award winning cars were not done this way and my guess is the judges didnt know any better but surely Doug did. Original is whats correct and doing your own thing because you think it looks better is of course taking liberties but to then claim its original is rewriting the history of Buick production line methodology. If you are going to all the trouble of getting your car correct then it should be original which is the point of the exercise of preserving history.  My own car has many changes to improve its reliability and performance as I drive it regularly but if I ever decide to repaint my motor I will definitely paint the lines if for no other reason then to remember and preserve how Buick built their cars with fully assembled and tested engines before chassis installation. It would be pretty nice to find an original Buick mask to put on the shelf. 

 

I can't disagree with any of that, Larry. I like and usually agree with your philosophy of doing it factory correct. But man, I just don't like how it looks at all! I'll have to see if I can reconcile those two opposing thoughts when it comes time to put my engine in the car (if that day ever comes).

 

Thank you for the added details; between your car and the car pictured above, I am now convinced that you're right.

[1940Super 81]

1941 photograph of front end assembly. Would be great to see it colorized.

[valk 209]

Agree with Lawrence that it is odd high point restored cars don't have proper red fuel lines. Perhaps now they will now that we have exposed this travesty! But what about parts of the Carter carbs being painted black?  Unless I missed something, Carbking's website did not reveal what I was looking for. From what I can gather, the bottom of each carb should be black (the part that has the idle mix screws) as well as the top cover of the rear carb. The other parts -  rear damper and both float bowls - should be unpainted. Weird. 

 

oooh and look at those beatifully assembled straight fuel lines above...

[Lawrence Helfand 157]

3 minutes ago, valk said:

Agree with Lawrence that it is odd high point restored cars don't have proper red fuel lines. Perhaps now they will now that we have exposed this travesty! But what about parts of the Carter carbs being painted black?  Unless I missed something, Carbking's website did not reveal what I was looking for. From what I can gather, the bottom of each carb should be black (the part that has the idle mix screws) as well as the top cover of the rear carb. The other parts -  rear damper and both float bowls - should be unpainted. Weird. 

 

oooh and look at those beatifully assembled straight fuel lines above...

Couple of notes..first off the early part of 41 production the engines were painted grey as were the 1940 models. 115 days into 41 they switched to red. The carbs are natural finish including the tops and the bases were painted gloss black. The tops were never painted front or rear. Linkage of course was natural finish. Again I refer to Anderson's book of 41  buick restoration

[neil morse 1,579]

5 hours ago, Lawrence Helfand said:

I am surprised to learn that Doug Sybolds award winning cars were not done this way and my guess is the judges didnt know any better but surely Doug did. Original is whats correct and doing your own thing because you think it looks better is of course taking liberties but to then claim its original is rewriting the history of Buick production line methodology.

 

It seems a number of concessions are made when it comes to the rules for judging various cars.  Beautiful powder-coated frames, for example.  Also, when it comes to Doug Seybold, it's worth noting that his beautiful engine-turned dash panels and glove box doors (which I'm sure every high-point '41 Buick has) are nothing like the originals.  He actually plates and then engraves the metal, whereas the original "engine-turning" was a decal.  So it's almost like using real wood to substitute for wood-graining.  I may be wrong, but I don't think anyone loses points for having panels engraved by Doug, even though they are not "correct" at all.

[carbking 1,220]

Carter produced over 800 "General Bulletins", and I am too lazy to look for the one on the body paint. If I happen to see it in future research (unless I forget  ), I will post it. In the "for what its worth category", Carter stated that both the outside AND INSIDE of the wrought iron castings were to be painted. Stromberg did NOT paint the cast iron items for Buick, but did for Packard. Carter painted all castings black on the V-16 Cadillac carbs.

 

Both Carter and Stromberg chromated the zinc alloy bodies. They were not left natural. The chromate treatment was a treatment to delay oxidation of the metal.

 

I am caretaker for the original drawings for both companies.

 

What Buick did with the carburetors after they left the Carter and Stromberg factories, I do not know.

 

Jon.

[Lawrence Helfand 157]

28 minutes ago, neil morse said:

 

It seems a number of concessions are made when it comes to the rules for judging various cars.  Beautiful powder-coated frames, for example.  Also, when it comes to Doug Seybold, it's worth noting that his beautiful engine-turned dash panels and glove box doors (which I'm sure every high-point '41 Buick has) are nothing like the originals.  He actually plates and then engraves the metal, whereas the original "engine-turning" was a decal.  So it's almost like using real wood to substitute for wood-graining.  I may be wrong, but I don't think anyone loses points for having panels engraved by Doug, even though they are not "correct" at all.

Hi Neil, The original engine turned panels were not decals. Plain un plated steel panels were engine turned on jigged presses and then sprayed with either one of two tinted clear lacquers. Once the lacquer starts breaking down they inevitably begin to oxidize which is why nice un rusted originals are so scarce. When cleaning off the oxidation one has to be careful not to over buff the shallow circular abrasions or they disappear..Just imagine if Buick had used an alloy instead of steel like all the aircraft and race car dash panels we love.

[neil morse 1,579]

This is probably a topic for another thread, but I'm only going on what Doug has told me.  I spoke to him about it last week because I have always been curious about it. He is adamant that the original pattern was a decal.  I tend to agree because you so often see cars (like mine) where someone got a little too aggressive trying to polish it, and they very easily got down to bare metal.  They have polished through the decal.  You can clearly see this because the demarcation between where the decal still exists and where it is gone is so clear.  

 

Of course, Seybold may be wrong, and I would be very interested in hearing whether you’re aware of any documentation or factory photos that confirm how it was actually done.

 

[Lawrence Helfand 157]

51 minutes ago, neil morse said:

This is probably a topic for another thread, but I'm only going on what Doug has told me.  I spoke to him about it last week because I have always been curious about it. He is adamant that the original pattern was a decal.  I tend to agree because you so often see cars (like mine) where someone got a little too aggressive trying to polish it, and they very easily got down to bare metal.  They have polished through the decal.  You can clearly see this because the demarcation between where the decal still exists and where it is gone is so clear.  

 

Of course, Seybold may be wrong, and I would be very interested in hearing whether you’re aware of any documentation or factory photos that confirm how it was actually done.

 

Sorry I cannot believe Doug said that. Just to remove the old turned finish takes some work. You must have gotten something mixed up talking with Doug.  It is rather obvious it is a traditional damascene finish and  not a decal . My own 41 has pretty good panels. they were quite tarnished but I carefully hand worked them and they look pretty good but a lot of my lacquer is flaked off and occasionally I freshen it up by softly hand rubbing it with Flitz paste so the bare metal wont tarnish.  I have considered stripping the remaining lacquer and respraying the tinted clear.  Neil it sounds like your panels were buffed smooth removing all the turning before you got it perhaps leaving nothing left for you to see. Read page 68 of Andersons book 1941 Buick restoration facts. In this photo you can clearly see the tinted lacquer has flaked off the top and the un coated damascene finish remains above. No decal just un plated steel. 

 

Edited August 1, 2019 by Lawrence Helfand (see edit history)

[neil morse 1,579]

39 minutes ago, Lawrence Helfand said:

Sorry I cannot believe Doug said that.

 

OK, so I'm a liar and made this all up.  I invite you to speak to Doug yourself and get back to me.  I assure you I did not misunderstand him.  He has been quoted in another thread as having said the same thing, which is one of the reasons I wanted to speak to him personally.  I know that Anderson disagrees.  I have his book, and I also have a personal email from him in which he insists that the panels were actually engraved.  I asked Doug about what Anderson said, and his immediate response was, "He's wrong."  I understand we can disagree about how these panels were created at the factory, but please don't accuse me of misrepresenting what Doug said.  I don't have the definitive answer, but I assure you that I have accurately repeated what Doug told me.

 

The panels on my car have not been "buffed smooth" (although we see a lot of cars where this is the case).  On the contrary, there are just a few places where someone seems to have "polished" through the decal.  (See photo.)  You can see in this photo the clear demarcation between where the pattern exists and where it has been removed.  This is why Doug's explanation makes sense to me.  If the panels were actually engraved, I don't think there would be such a clear line between "pattern" and "no pattern."

 

[neil morse 1,579]

Also, getting back to my original point, I assume you will concede that Doug's panels, while very pretty, are different than the originals.  He has created something that is "not correct," yet is accepted as such by the judges.  Regardless of how they were originally done at the factory, this is undeniable.  (See comparison below.)

 

Original glove box door

 

 

Doug Seybold glove box door