cjmarzoli Posted July 8, 2019 Share Posted July 8, 2019 I have a 1931 Buick Model 8-60. It has been stored for many years and I’ve gotten it running and am attempting to set the ignition timing. It was clearly not firing correctly to begin with. I installed new wires and condenser, disassembled and cleaned the distributor, and inspected the points (which look good). I’ve followed the procedure in the original shop manual verbatim. I can correctly setup Cyl #1 at TDC on the primary points but when I turn the crank to Cyl #6 (with the #6 mark on the flywheel in correct position), the rotor in the distributor has already passed the #6 firing position and the points are already wide open. You are supposed to adjust the secondary point plate so they have just separated at this position but there is not enough adjustment in the plate for me to close the points at either extreme of adjustment. It seems as if the distributor shaft is turning faster than it should be in relation to crankshaft rotation. I have attached before and after pics of my distributor and pics of the gear sprocket. There is some thinning of the teeth on the sprocket (in the center section) but would this be enough to throw the distributor rotation off that much? There is minimal rotational play in the distributor shaft. However if you rotate the shaft counter clockwise with your hand, there is some rotational movement and the centrifugal advance mechanism opens up. Is this correct behavior? After I set the timing the 4 plugs on the primary are burning nice and clean and the 4 on the secondary are fouling. The car runs better (but not well) now with the spark lever in the retarded position. It almost dies in the “running” position. Any tips or theories would be appreciated. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted July 8, 2019 Share Posted July 8, 2019 If you have 4 cylinders mis-behaving, it may not be the timing. Especially if you have timed it according to the manual. The gear cant cause your problem. (yours doesent look bad). There are steel tubes in the carb heat riser. these can rust and develop holes and thus vacuum leaks. That will cause poor running. Or having 4 cylinders go out to lunch. Both my '31 and '32 did that to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Engle Posted July 8, 2019 Share Posted July 8, 2019 Thee dual point distributors are a nuisance to get set. The problem will not be your distributor gear. First issue is to set the point gaps to .020" You can do this by having the clamp screw loose and turn the distributor body to get the fixed set of points fully open. Set the gap rotate the distributor for the second set of point fully open adjust the gap. Next process is easiest done with the plugs removed. First make sure you have paint marked the timing marks that appear in the timing hole. Set distributor spark advance full advance. fully clockwise in the spark advance slot. Crank engine by hand until #3 exhaust valve closes. slowly crank the engine till the 11 degree mark is lined up with the mark on the timing hole edge. No backing up must be set cranking forward. Now rotate the distributor clockwise until the distributor wire terminal is facing the front. At this point, the rotor should be pointing at #1 wire terminal in the cap. I prefer to use an ohm meter to make the next setting ( the manual says hold the coil high tension wire near the distributor and watch for a spark. With the ohm meter, make contact with the wire to the fixed set of points and the other wire to ground. very gently turn the distributor clockwise until the meter jumps to zero. Lock the distributor in this position. Note this is 11 degrees before top dead center. now crank the engine by hand to the synchronizing mark 1/4 of a turn on the flywheel. NO backing up! Plugs removed make it easier to crank. backing up will get cam and distributor gears floating in their lash. Loosen the locking screws for # 2 set of points. turn the eccentric screw clockwise until the points just open. Use the ohm meter to determine point opening just like the number one set. Lock everything down, install plugs and you should be good to go. I forgot to mention that you have a mechanical flyweight advance under the points plate. with everything locked down, you should be able turn the rotor clockwise and let go and it should snap back. The fly weight will give you from 10 to 30 degrees advance based on engine rpm. I like to make a chalk mark on the crankshaft V belt pulley at the 11 degree setting. You can then use a timing light to watch the advance when the engine is running. I hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 Your distributor looks very similar to the 660 used in the Dodge 8. Here is a page from the Standard Auto-electricians manual about it: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjmarzoli Posted July 9, 2019 Author Share Posted July 9, 2019 Thank you. I have set the timing according to the book as Robert Engle outlined, with the exception of the point gap spec being .018 in my manual. The issue is when I turn over the ¼ turn after setting the primary points on #1, I cannot adjust the secondary points so that they just open at this mark in the rotation. The rotor has already cleared the #6 plug wire port and is heading for the next plug, and the points are full open. There is not enough adjustment to rotate the plate to close them. The high point of the cam lobe has spun too far prematurely so they are already open much more than they should be at the #6 mark on the flywheel. This is why I was suspecting the gear as it seems the distributor shaft has turned too far in relation to where I set #1. I may well have a vacuum leak and will check that system out but that would not cause the distributor shaft to turn too “fast” relative to crankshaft rotation. Trying to get ignition in order and then move on to carburation and vacuum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 One little thing I notice is that the rubbing blocks are different. This one appears to be leaning over. It may even be falling off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Engle Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 In your first post you state the points are set at tdc #1Setting should be 11 degrees before tdc. Bob Engle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjmarzoli Posted July 9, 2019 Author Share Posted July 9, 2019 I set #1 correctly at the 11 degree before mark, i just expressed it incorrectly in my post. Thanks for clarifying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 When I set mine I use a tool sort of like the Delco Remy one shown above. It is a set of lines at 45o, intersecting at the centre, mounted on a piece of cardboard that fits snugly on the top of the distributor. Using the tool, the points are set with no reference to timing, which can be done later. Many do this on the bench and set the timing when they re-install the distributor. I just drew it up in a word processor or similar which has a rudimentary ability to specify angles between lines and diameters of circles. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johan Boltendal Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 It actually should work fine , setting these after the manual, what I have found (the hard way) it is extremely important the points have the right dimension, that is length of contact arm, take up point of the rubbing block on the arm, in relation with the cam lobe . If these do not have the original factory intended dimension , it can and will not function, the overlapping is not as it should be with the wrong dimension points. This might help knowing Johan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjmarzoli Posted July 9, 2019 Author Share Posted July 9, 2019 Spinneyhill, do you still have the word processing file you created? If so maybe you could email it to me. thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Engle Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 What marks do you see in the timing cover as you turn the engine through 360 degrees? My info is based on 1932 Buicks the second mark on 32 buicks says "sync" and the first is 6 degrees on 50 series, 11 degrees on 60 series and 10 degrees on the 80,90 series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 6 hours ago, cjmarzoli said: Spinneyhill, do you still have the word processing file you created? If so maybe you could email it to me. thanks! Sorry, I had a good look for it last night and can't find it. It may have been in Word Perfect, whatever I was using 20+ years ago. There have been two or three computer changes in between too! I'll make up another soon, my "tool" is about had-it. I attach a bent nail to the rotor as the pointer and line up a line on the first points opening. The others open on the next line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 (edited) OK, just rebuilt it in outline in Open Office Writer. Draw a square of dimension equal to the OD of the distributor top. Copy it and paste it, then rotate that pasted square 45o. I found it easiest to see what I was doing to press one right arrow after the paste so I could see the separate square. Draw a line at 0o and fit it across the diagonal of the rotated square. Copy and paste the line. Right arrow the pasted line away. Rotate it 45o. Do this twice more so you have four lines at 45o to each other. Move them to the diagonals of the squares. Zoom in to fit. Draw a circle then make it the size of the squares and move it into the first square. Group and move the other square and lines over it. So now you have a circle with two squares at 45o to each other with diagonals at 45o diametral to the circle. If you want, you can ungroup and delete the squares. Here is a screen snip of the one just made. It is not to size and is for demonstration purposes only. To use this, I stuck it to a piece of stiff cardboard and cut out the circle to fit the distributor. A bit of the centre is removed too so you can access the points. I'll find my grotty old thing and post a picture. Edited July 9, 2019 by Spinneyhill (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 Here is my working model. Pretty grotty, but works, with care. The pointer is stored there too! I am sure something better could easily be made out of a bit of metal. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937-44 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 3 hours ago, Spinneyhill said: Here is my working model. Pretty grotty, but works, with care. The pointer is stored there too! Spinneyhill thank you. I got a kick out of your model. When I tried to explain how I synchronized my points people looked at me like I was from Mars because the only "proper way" is with a distributor machine. I've attached a picture of my homemade tool that might not be exact but it gets things darn close. I discovered that some yogurt container lids were the same size as my distributor and already came with many of the marks needed. I now have a synchronizing tool but this kept a couple cars running and now lives in the car toolbox. Glad to see there are others who still improvise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 1 hour ago, 1937-44 said: I've attached a picture of my homemade tool Brilliant! Nice find. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Wetherbee Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 I started making one out of an old steel protractor that would mimic the Delco tool but then I bought a book of shop equipment for Pierce, Studebaker, and Rockne cars and found another tool. Here’s the other tool that was listed in that tool catalog, it’s a Winn Synchrometer... This unit is pretty much what was made available at that time and works well considering, but I have also been given the advice to find someone who has a distributor machine to get it set up right. My Pierce uses a Delco-Remy 660P distributor, very similar to yours, and once setup is done you go by the points breaking, which turns a light off. Setting the dial to a 90 position on the seated set of points then adjust the movable set to the 45 marks. I bought mine on eBay for $100 plus shipping without the instructions and have seen another one selling for the same price with the instructions since I got mine. A bit pricey, but I still think it is working better than the protractor I was working on... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 There is a very complete one of those on eBay right now, merely 225USD, which really makes my eyes water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 Here is the patent for the Weidenhoff version: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/2050530.pdf and here is a page from The Standard Auto-Electricians Manual 1937 giving patterns for "protractors". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 (edited) And here is a generic dual point distributor page from the Standard Auto-Electricians Manual showing another version of dual point synchronizing the tools. Edited July 10, 2019 by Spinneyhill (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 So what is the purpose of a dual points ignition system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Str8-8-Dave Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 Read the Delco distributor tutorial in Spineyhill's second post which states the advantage of the dual point distributor is longer charging time for the coil before points break firing the plug. This relates to longer dwell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Str8-8-Dave Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 Question 1: When you set the point clearances did you set each point set to 0.018" with the cam follower on the movable point at the top of a lobe on the breaker cam? Only one set of points can be at the top of a cam lobe at a time due to the geometry involved. On the bench you would simply rotate the distributor shaft by had to do this, in the car you would have had to rotate the distributor to get each follower on the top of the hill to set the point gap. Looking at one of your pictures it looks like the primary point set is open 0.018" and the other is open more like 0.035" which should not be, the points should not open more than 0.018" anywhere in the rotation of the distributor shaft and breaker cam. Either the secondary points are opening too wide or you have the adjustable breaker plate adjusted way too close artificially holding the secondary point open excessively. Question 2: When you attach a rotor and turn it clockwise while holding the distributor shaft still the and get movement the fly weights should deploy outward and when you release the pressure on the rotor the flyweights should collapse back to the fully retracted position due to the force exerted on them by the advance springs. Is that what is happening or does the rotor not return all the way to it's starting position? That could cause the rotor to have passed the #6 cylinder terminal on the cap with the "Syn 6" mark lined up on the flywheel window. If it doesn't snap back you may have broken, stretched or unhooked springs lurking under the breaker plate and you should remove main breaker plate assembly with points still attached from the distributor so you can inspect the mechanical advance and make sure the springs are hooked up and viable. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjmarzoli Posted July 14, 2019 Author Share Posted July 14, 2019 Str8-8-dave Q1- on the pic i posted this was when i had it on the bench and had removed points for cleaning inner plate so they are not adjusted yet. Yes i did adjust each set of points to a max of .018 when on the high point on the cam after this pic was taken. Q2- I inspected and cleaned the advance mechanism. the springs are present and it moves freely but seems to move too easily to me. The slightest hand spin of the shaft and the mechanical advance begins to open. It does not seem to snap back as firmly as you state when moved buy hand. it seems to have a lazy snap back. But does move back on its own. My issue is that when the "Syn 6" mark is centered in the flywheel window the rotor has already passed the #6 plug port on the distributor cap and the point are already wide open and i don't have enough adjustment in the moveable points plate to adjust them to be closed or just opened at this point of crankshaft rotation. Does anyone supply replacement springs for the advance mechanism or is there a test for them to determine if they are still in spec? thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Str8-8-Dave Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 If for some reason the advance unit went to full advance when you were trying to adjust secondary points with the Syn 6 marks lined up the rotor would be past or near past terminal 6 on the cap. That's probably wishful thinking but possible. As far as the springs being weak the only real way to test is with a distributor machine. My experience is if the original springs are taut enough to install over the spring posts on the advance rotor and flyweights with flyweights all the way collapsed in and no slack between spring end and groove in the post that's pretty normal. They are very weak springs at best because the distributor rotates half engine speed and the advance unit is supposed to start at 10-14 degrees at 800 crank or 400 distributor shaft speed, 19-23 at 1800 crank/900 distributor and is fully advanced at 30-34 degrees at 3000 crank or 1500 distributor speed. Keep in mind 34 is the total advance including the initial advance you dial in using the flywheel marks with engine stopped. One other thing to try if you are game. Someone mentioned the fact that if there is a mis match of points to the distributor THAT could affect the geometry and cause the secondary points not to be capable of being synchronized at the Syn 6 mark. Do you know for sure that the distance from the pin the movable point pivots on to the center of the contact point on the movable point is equal for both primary and secondary movable points, I.E. are the arms the same length? The point bases should also be symmetrically opposite each other. If you took both bases off and matched up the bottom plates of the stationary point bases all the adjustment holes should line up perfectly. If not you have the wrong point base on one of the point sets. The bases should match perfectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTCV Posted August 2, 2019 Share Posted August 2, 2019 OK I do not have a chance to look at my 32 but I am going to ask this anyway at the risk of sounding stupid. The eccentric screws used to adjust the points. Can they be installed improperly? Basically 180 degrees off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTCV Posted August 2, 2019 Share Posted August 2, 2019 (edited) I tried posting this once earlier but I did not see it show up. So here I go again. I do not have my 32 Buick in front of me right now but can the eccentric screws used to adjust the points be installed 180 degrees off. This is the only thing I can think of that can alter the position of the point set. Sorry for the repost . Edited August 2, 2019 by CTCV sorry for the repost (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTCV Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 I found my old before and after pics. After rebuilding and setting the gaps it was installed. I only rotated the engine to see if the timing looked correct. It looked right so we cranked it . Had to turn to the most retarded position and it started right up. Maybe the images can help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted August 4, 2019 Share Posted August 4, 2019 I can't remember.... but it seems to me the eccentric brass screws just turn 360o to take the right position to set the points. If the points aren't synchronized and you can't synchronize them, are the rubbing blocks too far from the pivot? But it started. So does the question still apply? I am puzzled now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTCV Posted August 4, 2019 Share Posted August 4, 2019 I am using the image from cjmarzoli. I believe the eccentric screws can limit the adjustment if not in the correct orientation to each other. Imho. See image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTCV Posted August 4, 2019 Share Posted August 4, 2019 (edited) 10 hours ago, Spinneyhill said: I can't remember.... but it seems to me the eccentric brass screws just turn 360o to take the right position to set the points. If the points aren't synchronized and you can't synchronize them, are the rubbing blocks too far from the pivot? But it started. So does the question still apply? I am puzzled now. I don't think the rubbing blocks to pivot distance is the issue. I think the points set plate needs to move counterclockwise in relationship to the shaft. The rubbing blocks are in the wrong position but only because the plate and pivot are in the wrong position. If I were to suggest that the rubbing block for set 1 is at 12 oclock, the rubbing block for set 2 is at 7 oclock. It needs to move more towards 630. It cannot get there with the eccentric screws binding each other. In the rusty pic of my distributor you can make out what I feel is the correct eccentric screws orientation. Again just MHO Edited August 4, 2019 by CTCV added info (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Str8-8-Dave Posted August 4, 2019 Share Posted August 4, 2019 I'm going to respectfully disagree that the 2 eccentric screws can bind each other. The eccentric screws are riveted to the plates allowing them to rotate 360 degrees. The eccentric screw that adjusts the point clearance on the movable plate (the one you synchronize to #6 cylinder) is riveted to the MOVABLE PLATE. The other eccentric screw that you use to adjust timing of the movable point to synchronize it to cylinder #6 is riveted to the BASE PLATE beneath the movable plate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTCV Posted August 4, 2019 Share Posted August 4, 2019 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Str8-8-Dave said: I'm going to respectfully disagree that the 2 eccentric screws can bind each other. The eccentric screws are riveted to the plates allowing them to rotate 360 degrees. The eccentric screw that adjusts the point clearance on the movable plate (the one you synchronize to #6 cylinder) is riveted to the MOVABLE PLATE. The other eccentric screw that you use to adjust timing of the movable point to synchronize it to cylinder #6 is riveted to the BASE PLATE beneath the movable plate. In cj's image please note the position of the locking screws compared to the slot they are in. The plate is maxed out with the screws at the end of the travel of the slot. If cj can loosen the locking screws and rotate the base plate (of the point set) to the opposite ends of the slots I would agree with you. My guess he cannot until he lifts the plate, then rotated the eccentric screw closest the pivot 180 degrees and reinstalls the plate. When I say "plate" I am referring to the points set base plate. Sorry for any confusion. Edited August 4, 2019 by CTCV (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjmarzoli Posted August 7, 2019 Author Share Posted August 7, 2019 Thanks to all who replied. I have my timing set correctly now thanks to your tips. The use of a test bulb connected in line is essential to determining the exact point at which points open. My main issue was I had set the primary points (cyl #1) by eye and it was a bit off, which thru the position of the secondary points off. Also, not mentioned in the manual- it is essential to adjust the plate for the secondary points all the way counter clockwise before adjustment so there is “room” to adjust them clockwise with the eccentric screw. Once I did these two things it was relatively easy to get them synchronized. It is running much better now but starving for gas going up hills or under load so I am presently rebuilding the carburetor. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTCV Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 3 hours ago, cjmarzoli said: Thanks to all who replied. I have my timing set correctly now thanks to your tips. The use of a test bulb connected in line is essential to determining the exact point at which points open. My main issue was I had set the primary points (cyl #1) by eye and it was a bit off, which thru the position of the secondary points off. Also, not mentioned in the manual- it is essential to adjust the plate for the secondary points all the way counter clockwise before adjustment so there is “room” to adjust them clockwise with the eccentric screw. Once I did these two things it was relatively easy to get them synchronized. It is running much better now but starving for gas going up hills or under load so I am presently rebuilding the carburetor. Great to hear of your success. As far as the fuel shortage I have read where owners were installing electric fuel pumps as an assist to the original. They also highly recommend the installation of an inertia switch to shut of the pump in an accident. They are available in 6 volt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Str8-8-Dave Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 Great to hear of your success and I can second your observation that you would have a hard time setting point clearance or break point by eye. I also disconnect the condenser and coil wires from the point circuit while setting break point. I use a Fluke volt/ohm meter to determine the break point which is much easier to see with condenser out of the circuit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steves Buick Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 Good stuff, just for grins I ran a timing light and checked to see how close I was, The light worked great on a seperate 12v source. CTCV I can send a pix of my distrib if that helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjmarzoli Posted August 8, 2019 Author Share Posted August 8, 2019 After initial setting with a test lamp, i did connect my timing light to it while it was running. My light is inductive and goes around the spark wires and it seemed to power fine of the 6v battery in the car. According to the light the marks were very close to where they should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTCV Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 On Thursday, August 08, 2019 at 2:42 AM, Steves Buick said: Good stuff, just for grins I ran a timing light and checked to see how close I was, The light worked great on a seperate 12v source. CTCV I can send a pix of my distrib if that helps. Hi Steve, Mine is up and running but in the school and we were off for the summer and I could not go in to look at it. I was going from memory and some pictures I had taken earlier. For some reason I thought I remember having an issue with mine until those eccentric screws were in the proper position. I would absolutely welcome a picture ,, I enjoy seeing others work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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