401 Engine color...Red? AC too.

[TampaRiv]

Hi again from Tampa.  I was wondering what the correct color or colors for the 401 would be.  My '63 has red valve covers, and a red air cleaner. Somehow I thought that the Buick green was correct, but the red on my 401 looks original.  Maybe I'm wrong.   Anybody?

 

  ALSO....What can anybody tell me about the AC system in my '63 Riv?  It hasn't operated in 20 years, and I have no experience or knowledge in automotive AC systems. Anything you can tell me will be appreciated.

 

Rich

[kreed]

The correct engine color for the 1963 401 is silver . The air cleaner is red crinkle finish . 

KReed

ROA 14549 

[TampaRiv]

Great photos kreed, thanks for the reply.  My engine is numbers-matching, but I wonder why there isn't a speck of silver to be seen?  😕

[RivNut]

The 401 in the '65 Skylark series GS was painted red.  Which numbers are you matching?

[TampaRiv]

Hmmm,  thanks RivNut.   My engine block is stamped with the number 7J1092186, and that's the same number that appears on the body tag located on the cowl on the driver's side.  However, after closer examination, I can see that the red was painted over silver on the valve covers.   So, the Buick green was never used on the Riviera?

 

   Thanks for the info, I'm really enjoying working on the Riv and getting to know the Riviera community.    Here's another question....do you guys like this oldbuickparts place out of New Jersey? They seem to have a good selection and prices seem tolerable. Besides OPG, are there any other good suppliers for old Riv parts?

[RivNut]

 Besides  OPGI.  😊 I  haven't heard a good one like that since a Priest a Rabbi, and a Minister walk into a bar.......

CARS, the oldbuickparts.com guys, have some good stuff, but your best bet is to read a bunch of older posts and see who recommends what.  OPGI is, in my opinion, a over priced relabler. You can usually  find the same for less or a better product from another source.  Rivieras are not like Mustangs and Camaros/Chevelles for which tons of things are reproduced.  Body parts will come from parts cars.  Clark's Corvair has what most consider the best upholstery.  Rubber products are good from a number of sources.  Tom Telesco, who is on this forum, is a good source for engine parts and knowledge. Just read and absorb; take notes.

[KongaMan]

6 hours ago, TampaRiv said:

  ALSO....What can anybody tell me about the AC system in my '63 Riv?  It hasn't operated in 20 years, and I have no experience or knowledge in automotive AC systems. Anything you can tell me will be appreciated.

 

Ask Turbinator.  He's done more work on his 63 AC than most of us have done in a lifetime.  

 

More seriously... Buy a shop manual (if you don't have one already) and read about the AC system.  There's a lot of good info in there.  If you're going to tackle this yourself, you'll need a set of gauges (make sure to get fittings to match your car: R12 if it's unmolested, 134a if it's been converted) and a vacuum pump.  Everything else can be done with standard mechanic's tools and some occasional profanity.

 

First and foremost, old and unused doesn't mean dead.  Has it been apart, and if not, is there any charge in it at all?  Even a slight residual charge is cause for optimism.  Conversely, a completely empty system is not cause for despair.  It's unfortunate that R12 is so frickin' expensive, because if you have even a slight charge, you could fill it and see if it works.  It's been known to happen.  Otherwise, evacuate it and see if it holds vacuum.  If it leaks, you've got some thinking to do.  You'll want to replace the drier in any case, and you'd be well advised to flush the system (compressor, lines, evaporator, condenser, etc.), but you want to see if you can isolate the leak(s) before you spring for a full charge of R12.  A common location is the compressor seal.  That may not be a big deal, as it is designed to leak a little (that's how it gets oiled), so it wouldn't be catastrophic if the entire charge leaked out over 20 years.  Replacing all o-rings is cheap and most are easy; the evaporator can be a PITA.  Unless you got water inside (and all the attendant goo that creates), the only components that can really "fail" are the STV, expansion valve, and compressor (but the A6 compressor is pretty robust).  The STV controls the amount of cooling; make sure that diaphragm holds vacuum.  If you are dismantling the system (i.e. to replace the O-rings), take the STV apart and have a look inside to see if it's clean and smooth.  Use care doing this; it's a precision part.   You may have bad diaphragms on the air box, but those are more of an issue of air control rather than cooling function. 

[Turbinator]

9 hours ago, kreed said:

The correct engine color for the 1963 401 is silver . The air cleaner is red crinkle finish . 

KReed

ROA 14549 

First rate, top shelf.

Turbinator

[Turbinator]

9 hours ago, TampaRiv said:

Hi again from Tampa.  I was wondering what the correct color or colors for the 401 would be.  My '63 has red valve covers, and a red air cleaner. Somehow I thought that the Buick green was correct, but the red on my 401 looks original.  Maybe I'm wrong.   Anybody?

 

  ALSO....What can anybody tell me about the AC system in my '63 Riv?  It hasn't operated in 20 years, and I have no experience or knowledge in automotive AC systems. Anything you can tell me will be appreciated.

 

Rich

Rich, I’ve been working on my 63 AC system for 3 seasons. My story is long and painfully expensive. If I were do over I’d take the car to a genuine restoration shop give them a deposit and say call me when you have cold air. I’m like you when I started 3 seasons ago I knew nothing about how AC  worked. Because of horribly poor AC mechanics in my area I ended up replacing everything new. I still do not have cold air, BUT I do have a closed system leak free and ready to be charged. I bought a mobile AC book and a lot of AC tools. The forum helped me a lot. Had it not been for the ROA forum I’d be in real trouble. All my AC components are stock with exception of the STV eliminator. The 63 AC design by today’s AC is not the best design. The controls are run by vacuum actuators, vacuum switches, and vacuum

hoses. The AC system is yet s stand alone system. If you have the 63 Buick Service manual you have a chance. Without the manual you haven’t got a prayer. In the case you thousands of dollars you won’t miss a full restoration shop is the way to go. If you are a DIY guy I have a minimum of $3200.00 invested in new ( not rebuilt) components AND rebuilt Freon hoses. Really, I’m no mechanic and sometimes not too smart, but I am persistent and resilient. My history of 3 yrs activity of starts and stops on AC is way too long to chronicle here.

Turbinator

[RIVNIK]

Hey Rich!     You've got to get hooked up with the RiveriaOwnersAssn. The club's magazine, The Review, is a valuable(& invaluable), source of information. You will find ads for parts from distributors & club members, tech advice from oldschool experts, notices for Riv related events, & great articles & pics sent in by members. You will also find an index of tech articles & what issue they were in & can even obtain past issues.  I don't know what parts you need, but before you spend too much on repros you might consider used parts from one of the members. Check out the ROA website. You'll get plenty of info just as a visitor, & once you join you'll be able to access a wealth of Riviera data through the site.    Good luck, & I look forward to seeing your '63 at one of the central Fla events in the future. There aren't many of us but we do get together from time to time, usually in Ocala where the local organizer lives, Bob Wannal.            & next time you're in O'ville look me up!    Drew Smith

[jsgun]

I like the factory green, but I liked 70's AMC teal even better.

[TampaRiv]

I certainly do see a lot of photos of the 401 in the teal/mint green.  I see vintage stuff showing the engine in that color.  Did they use both colors, silver and mint?  Also,  what is under the flat cover tray that is underneath the intake manifold?  Is the camshaft under that cover?  Is that cover tray easily removed (for painting), and is there a gasket available for re-assembly?

 

   Thanks again from Tampa, where the weather was just beautiful today (as most days), and the traffic was awful (as most days).  Perfect for a guy working on a '63 Riviera who only has to go to the corner store  for beverages.🍺

[RivNut]

All full sized models in the 63 Buick lineup had the darker green engine except for the Riviera which was silver.  NO mint green.  The mint blue/green engine looks too much like a Pontiac color. IMHO, It just looks out of place. 

 

The valley cover covers the lifter valley. You'll  need to remove the intake manifold to properly paint it. Both the valley cover and the intake manifold will need new gaskets when you put them back on, both of which are readily available. CARS, Rock Auto, or your maybe even your local jobber.

[Turbinator]

On 3/19/2019 at 4:38 AM, KongaMan said:

 

Ask Turbinator.  He's done more work on his 63 AC than most of us have done in a lifetime.  

 

More seriously... Buy a shop manual (if you don't have one already) and read about the AC system.  There's a lot of good info in there.  If you're going to tackle this yourself, you'll need a set of gauges (make sure to get fittings to match your car: R12 if it's unmolested, 134a if it's been converted) and a vacuum pump.  Everything else can be done with standard mechanic's tools and some occasional profanity.

 

First and foremost, old and unused doesn't mean dead.  Has it been apart, and if not, is there any charge in it at all?  Even a slight residual charge is cause for optimism.  Conversely, a completely empty system is not cause for despair.  It's unfortunate that R12 is so frickin' expensive, because if you have even a slight charge, you could fill it and see if it works.  It's been known to happen.  Otherwise, evacuate it and see if it holds vacuum.  If it leaks, you've got some thinking to do.  You'll want to replace the drier in any case, and you'd be well advised to flush the system (compressor, lines, evaporator, condenser, etc.), but you want to see if you can isolate the leak(s) before you spring for a full charge of R12.  A common location is the compressor seal.  That may not be a big deal, as it is designed to leak a little (that's how it gets oiled), so it wouldn't be catastrophic if the entire charge leaked out over 20 years.  Replacing all o-rings is cheap and most are easy; the evaporator can be a PITA.  Unless you got water inside (and all the attendant goo that creates), the only components that can really "fail" are the STV, expansion valve, and compressor (but the A6 compressor is pretty robust).  The STV controls the amount of cooling; make sure that diaphragm holds vacuum.  If you are dismantling the system (i.e. to replace the O-rings), take the STV apart and have a look inside to see if it's clean and smooth.  Use care doing this; it's a precision part.   You may have bad diaphragms on the air box, but those are more of an issue of air control rather than cooling function. 

Mr Konga Man, you are 100 % correct about the amount of work I’ve put in on my 63 AC. It’s going to work good too. When I was working for a living I put in more work in year than some put in a lifetime. The old fashion work ethic has been a curse.😂

stay Well 

[Turbinator]

6 hours ago, TampaRiv said:

I certainly do see a lot of photos of the 401 in the teal/mint green.  I see vintage stuff showing the engine in that color.  Did they use both colors, silver and mint?  Also,  what is under the flat cover tray that is underneath the intake manifold?  Is the camshaft under that cover?  Is that cover tray easily removed (for painting), and is there a gasket available for re-assembly?

 

   Thanks again from Tampa, where the weather was just beautiful today (as most days), and the traffic was awful (as most days).  Perfect for a guy working on a '63 Riviera who only has to go to the corner store  for beverages.🍺

TampaRiv, once you start working on the 63 AC I’m sorry to say you’ll be spending a lot of time at the corner story dispensary.🥃🍸🍹

Edited March 21, 2019 by Turbinator (see edit history)

[Turbinator]

Send

[RivNut]

4 hours ago, Turbinator said:

 When I was working for a living I put in more work in year than some put in a lifetime. The old fashion work ethic has been a curse.😂

 

My ol' Granpappy used to tell me "Son, if you find a job you really like, you'll never work a day in your life." 

 

I worked really hard at a couple of jobs until I went back to school and started teaching. 😎  I put in a lot more hours but the rewards made it all worthwhile.  I never regretted hearing the alarm go off.

[TexRiv_63]

Here are a couple photos of the 63 air cleaner with the original paint and trims.

[Turbinator]

The colors all match. Looks like the real deal.

Turbinator

[RivNut]

The picture that Don posted above shows the correct color.  It's a hard color to match and it's a wrinkle finish to boot.  Lots of restored '63's have a brighter red non wrinkle color on them.  This picture is an excellent reference to what you should strive for if you're going for totally original.

 

Don't use Don's engine as a perfect example though.  He installed a Vintage Air A/C unit so his compressor is a later Sanden style unit and his firewall is missing the OE A/C blower box.  

 

 

 

Edited March 21, 2019 by RivNut (see edit history)

[Turbinator]

6 hours ago, RivNut said:

My ol' Granpappy used to tell me "Son, if you find a job you really like, you'll never work a day in your life." 

 

I worked really hard at a couple of jobs until I went back to school and started teaching. 😎  I put in a lot more hours but the rewards made it all worthwhile.  I never regretted hearing the alarm go off.

 

1 hour ago, RivNut said:

The picture that Don posted above shows the correct color.  It's a hard color to match and it's a wrinkle finish to boot.  Lots of restored '63's have a brighter red non wrinkle color on them.  This picture is an excellent reference to what you should strive for if you're going for totally original.

 

Don't use Don's engine as a perfect example though.  He installed a Vintage Air A/C unit so his compressor is a later Sanden style unit and his firewall is missing the OE A/C blower box.  

 

 

 

Yes, but Don has an AC that works and keeps him cool. Yes, indeedy.

[Turbinator]

RivNut, many facets to a job/career/position in the work place.  Your GrandDad was right on about liking what you do. I stayed in one work place for 31 years so something kept me there. The first 15 years was a lot of fun. Years 16-31 were sometimes good, sometimes not so good. I liked retiring at age 56 on my own terms/volition and that was good, real,good.

Turbinator

[Riviera63]

Here are some more reference shots. With all of the examples shown you can get a pretty good idea of how your engine compartment should look and be painted.

 

Bill

 

[RivNut]

This engine compartment show the plastic cover over the a/c fan switches, the muffler cover, the bottle to hold extra washer fluid, and the correct orientation of the battery cables - positive post closest to the radiator- plus other small details. The breather is a little too red,  but this is indicative of the fact that the correct color is so danged hard to find.  I highly doubt if any judge, professional or peer, would look twice at it.  Only the 63 had the Wildcat decal on the snorkel. 

 

PS - The owner has made a recommended safety upgrade by installing a dual reservoir master cylinder.

Edited March 21, 2019 by RivNut
Added PS (see edit history)

[KongaMan]

13 minutes ago, RivNut said:

... the correct orientation of the battery cables - positive post closest to the radiator- ...

 

Dunno if that's correct so much as advisable. That is, it's not the way it came from the factory. 

[Riviera63]

1 hour ago, KongaMan said:

 

Dunno if that's correct so much as advisable. That is, it's not the way it came from the factory. 

 

I'm pretty sure that Buick sent out a service bulletin to dealers to route the cables this way. I would assume that at some point they would have started doing it at the factory as well. I know I have seen other diagrams showing the cables routed in this manner.

 

Bill

[KongaMan]

There's more to it than routing cables:

- Original cables may not be long enough to connect to a battery that's turned around (mine aren't).

- Reversing the terminals while keeping them away from the grill means a different battery (27 vs. 27F).

[TampaRiv]

Thanks gents,  the cars look great, I aspire to such a nice looking engine bay.    Anybody ever do their own headliner?  I am planning to replace mine this weekend.  Compared to other cars I've owned, the headliner in the Riv doesn't look all that difficult (but I've never done one on any car).   Any hints or tips would be appreciated.  RE: correctness....the metal pieces that surround the headliner, on my car, are painted an off white...turns out it's Heirloom White from Home Depot. Then would the attaching screws also be painted white, or would they be chrome?  Somehow I feel like white would look better.

[Loren@65GS.com]

On ‎3‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 10:18 PM, RivNut said:

The 401 in the '65 Skylark series GS was painted red.  Which numbers are you matching?

 The 401 "LR" code used in the '65 Skylark Gran Sport was not red. It was the Buick green , same as all the other Buick engines for '65.  As far as I know, '66 was the first use of red  on Buick engines.

 

  Loren

[RivNut]

20 minutes ago, Loren@65GS.com said:

 The 401 "LR" code used in the '65 Skylark Gran Sport was not red. It was the Buick green , same as all the other Buick engines for '65.  As far as I know, '66 was the first use of red  on Buick engines.

 

  Loren

Thanks Loren.

 

I meant to type 66, but small letters on the screen of my tablet and big fingers are not a good mix.

[RivNut]

2 hours ago, KongaMan said:

 

Dunno if that's correct so much as advisable. That is, it's not the way it came from the factory. 

Here's a picture from a Buick brochure that shows the positive cable next to the radiator and across the top, between the caps of a Group 27 battery.  There is a service bulletin that suggests that the positive cable be run between the battery itself and the hold down bolt on the back side. It did come from the factory that way. Both cables were black, the positive one, next to the radiator, has a large P cast into it.  Factory color on the air cleaner.  Not a gloss and not a ruby red.  The weave in the photo is from the paper the brochure is printed on.

 

[Riviera63]

19 minutes ago, RivNut said:

Here's a picture from a Buick brochure that shows the positive cable next to the radiator and across the top, between the caps of a Group 27 battery.  There is a service bulletin that suggests that the positive cable be run between the battery itself and the hold down bolt on the back side. It did come from the factory that way. Both cables were black, the positive one, next to the radiator, has a large P cast into it.  Factory color on the air cleaner.  Not a gloss and not a ruby red.  The weave in the photo is from the paper the brochure is printed on.

 

 

Thanks Ed.

[KongaMan]

I think it's been well established that pictures in brochures do not necessarily reflect production vehicles.  In any event, my (presumably) factory cable will not connect to a positive terminal in that location.

[1965rivgs]

38 minutes ago, Riviera63 said:

 

Thanks Ed.

Not to mention the fact there appears to be "POS" next to the battery post! Guess Buick wasnt installing Ford batteries in their flagship model!

Tom

[KongaMan]

37 minutes ago, 1965rivgs said:

Not to mention the fact there appears to be "POS" next to the battery post! Guess Buick wasnt installing Ford batteries in their flagship model!

Tom

You might want to elaborate on exactly you mean by "POS".  

[Jim Cannon]

2 hours ago, Riviera63 said:

 

I'm pretty sure that Buick sent out a service bulletin to dealers to route the cables this way. I would assume that at some point they would have started doing it at the factory as well. I know I have seen other diagrams showing the cables routed in this manner.

 

Bill

 

The cars left the factory with the positive post by the radiator.  I forget where I saw it in factory literature in the past to convince myself that they did.

 

Riviera used a cable from terminal post to battery positive post with a number (2982505) that is unique to that car in the Master Parts Book.  Also a unique number for the ground cable (2982507).  Sorry, that MPB does not provide a cable length, I wish it did.  I suspect they are a bit longer to allow them to pass across the top of the battery to the posts out front.

 

There was a service bulletin about routing the cables back behind the post that holds the battery down, to prevent them from rubbing against the trumpet horns, when installed.

 

 

 

[1965rivgs]

Notice the last paragragh and the date of the document..

[1965rivgs]

Notice the date on this drawing..this is surely an engineering drawing which appeared in the factory assembly manual used to assemble the cars in Flint...

[1965rivgs]

This is the service bulletin which Bill and Jim referenced above. Notice the battery is the standard DC-12 that has been flipped around...not a special battery with post relocation. There`s more...but this should suspend any doubt as to what is factory correct

Tom Mooney

 

 

Edited March 22, 2019 by 1965rivgs (see edit history)

[KongaMan]

I dunno.  Documents notwithstanding, I know what I see.  Since I didn't buy the car new, I cannot speak with certitude as to its history in the 14 years before I bought it.  However, I have never changed the cables, they are identical to cables I know to be factory originals, and the red positive cable will not reach to the inboard position on a battery that has been turned around, let alone when tucked under the hold-down bolt.  IIRC, it would reach on a straight shot to a 27F -- which is a cleaner look anyway.

 

Could the cables have been replaced?  Sure -- but the last time this was discussed, there were others who said their cables wouldn't reach, either.

 

IMHO, irrespective of the cables, buy a battery with Ford terminals or a cap for the cable clamp.  Cables run over the battery look like crap.  But then, so do crossed cables.