New here- 1st Post: what is it

[Grandpa]

Pictured is the engine in a 1922 Davis Model 71.  The engine is a Continental 6Y Red Seal six cylinder rated at 50 hp with a 3-1/8" bore and a 4-1/4" stroke, displacing 196 cubic inches.

 

Note that the exhaust manifold is connected to the ports at each end of the engine block.  The exhaust manifold connection at the back of the engine block is partially obscured by the vacuum tank mounted on the firewall.

[30sclassics]

[30sclassics]

Re: previous post, I wasn't sure how to post text PLUS a picture.  Anyway, the engine in the original post appears to be a Continental 6V. The car is possibly a 1918 Moon 6-36.  I cannot find any pictures of that car or engine.  The Moon had semi-eliptical rear  springs, and a Jacobsen differential.  The  Saxon had cantilever springs, and a Timken rear end.

[Grandpa]

The information on a 1922 Davis (Post # 42), and also on a 1920 Davis,  can be found on the following web site:

 

https://www.hemmings.com/magazine/hcc/2014/06/-Built-of-the-Best----1920--amp--1922-Davis/3738401.html#PhotoSwipe1502899136501

 

 

 

[mike6024]

 

So that is the Continental 6V Head gasket. Are we declaring that to be a match?

 

Vintage Head Gaskets link - http://shop.obsoleteautova.com/Head-Gaskets_c15.htm?page=all

Edited August 17, 2017 by mike6024 (see edit history)

[mike6024]

1918 Moon 6-36 Series specifications - http://classiccardatabase.com/specs.php?series=2825&year=1918&model=13835

 

Wheelbase    114 inches, Rear    Semi-elliptic leaf springs

 

 

[mike6024]

That does not look right.

[viv w]

I have been following debate on this vehicle remains with interest. It is pretty obvious that the above gasket does not fit this engine.

 My 2c worth. The ports on the side of the block all appear to be exhaust ports. So where does the intake come from?

 I am assuming the valve sequence, from front to back, is the normal exhaust inlet inlet exhaust pattern , so the top of the block shows 5 approx 3/4 diameter holes, the 2 outer and the centre holes line up in between the inlet valves, so I would say these are the inlet ports and must be fed thru the head somehow. The other 2 holes must be for water flow from the block into the head.

 My other observation about this post. Yes the motor is unusual, but there are also numbers on the steering column that could help ID the car and are there any frame numbers around the steering column mounting or on the frame itself?.

Regards Viv.

[Guest tenalquot]

Thanks all for your time and input!  I need to catch up a bit and comment when I have more time.  I appreciate the interest this has generated and your efforts to help!

[jan arnett (2)]

Quote

Here is a 1923 Moon engine and it is not like the example.

 

[Spinneyhill]

Early Chryslers certainly had the exhaust ports at the ends and two middle ports and the inlets in the other two ports. They also had the distributor on top on the manifold side.

 

The problem with the Continental engine mentioned is the individual cylinders are visible. The subject engine appears to be slab sided on the RHS.

 

The inlets MUST be in the block. It has to come up through the valves.

 

What is that on the front of the block, top left in the photo, above the timing cover?

Edited August 17, 2017 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[dictator27]

 

Here is a Continental Red Seal Type U as supplied to UK auto maker Morris.  The cqarburetor mounted tothe side of the block, the four exhaust ports and the three latge holes Iin the deck of the block thatsupply fuel to the cylinder.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1tq3

Terry

Edited August 17, 2017 by dictator27 (see edit history)

[dictator27]

Sorry everyone.  I can't get my computer to cooperate.  Can someone help me, please?  Go to youtube and type in morris cowley bakers van.  The first part of the video clearly shows what I have noted above.  The engine in question is definitely a Continental product.  The object on the right side of the block is probably a carburetor.

 

Terry

[Spinneyhill]

27 minutes ago, dictator27 said:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zkRFOLV17Ww

 

You might have to help us out a bit with the link. It doesn't work?

 

Thanks. That worked. But that is a 4 cylinder engine?

Edited August 17, 2017 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[dictator27]

Yes, it is a four, but the basic design is still the same.  The Type U was designed about 1915 and used by Morris until 1930, by which time it was well out of date.

 

Terry

[mike6024]

 

 

Carburetor on the right side and 4 exhaust ports on the left.

[CarlLaFong]

19 hours ago, dictator27 said:

 three latge holes Iin the deck of the block thatsupply fuel to the cylinder.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1tq3

Terry

The three large holes are for coolant. How would fuel get from those holes to the other side of the engine and under the valve????

[Grandpa]

I recently reviewed a friend's collection of illustrated gasket catalogs and Continental engine catalogs & ads for the period of the unknown car to ID.  The following are the findings - - -

 

Gasket catalogs:

• No Continental engine head gasket was found that matches the unknown engine.

• The whole catalog (all makes) was checked for a matching head gasket with no results.

 

Continental engine catalogs and ads:

• No illustration (or drawing) was found that matches the engine in the car to ID.

• No engine model number in the catalog matched the "35BA" or the "3677-10" numbers found on the engine block of the unknown car.

• Based on the engines illustrated in the catalog and ads, there were no circa 1920 engines with a slab-sided water jacket that extends as far down on the right side of the engine block as on the unknown engine.

 

 

 

 

[Grandpa]

The raised "molding" design, at the top edge of the body, is unusual because it is flat and wide.  This feature of the body's styling, likely extended forward all the way to the cowl and ended at the base of the windshield.  A search of online images of circa 1920 touring cars did not result in a match.  The image, below, was rotated a bit.

[mike6024]

Thank you for doing all that research. I suppose it may mean Continental can be eliminated? You are fixing the year of the vehicle to be 1920 or are you saying it is in the range of the early 1920's?

[Grandpa]

Mike,

Your questions in post #60 - - -

• The engine may not be a Continental, but it does have some Continental design features.  Also, I doubt if the engine was made by Lycoming.  I also considered Buda engines, but most of their production was for trucks.  From limited Buda information, a match was not found.

• From the shape of the right rear fender (the smooth transverse curve of the top) and the shape of the back of the body, I would guess the vintage of the car to be about 1920 to 1924.  It appears that the body may have been designed in the late teens and carried over into early 1920s production.

[nzcarnerd]

21 hours ago, Grandpa said:

The raised "molding" design, at the top edge of the body, is unusual because it is flat and wide.  This feature of the body's styling, likely extended forward all the way to the cowl and ended at the base of the windshield.  A search of online images of circa 1920 touring cars did not result in a match.  The image, below, was rotated a bit.

I looked at that moulding. The problem when trying to find a match might be that with its folded top in place much of that moulding would be obscured.

[Grandpa]

Nzcarnerd,

Regarding your post #62 - - -

You're right, the folded top obscures the molding on the back of the body of cars pictured online.  However, it is likely that the molding may also be on the car's doors.

Anyway, I couldn't find a molding match to any online images of circa 1920 touring cars.

[Stude17]

Just a guess could it be a Rutenber engine?  Also on the rear tub there is a bracket (possibly for a spare tyre) which is distinctive and may help in the identification of the vehicle. 

[Spinneyhill]

The molding around the top of the tub looks a lot like Pierce Arrow of 1918-20 or so.

[Grandpa]

The Chalmers six has a body molding that is very close to the molding design on the unknown car.  The vintage picture of the couple is an earlier Chalmers (circa 1918) with a flatter fender profile.  The molding design is flat and wide at the back of the body (the enlarged picture); the molding looks like it has a slightly curved profile on the doors.  Also, the enlarged picture shows a spare tire carrier bracket on the back of the body like the unknown car.  The contemporary picture, of the black colored 1922 Chalmers, has a rear fender profile that resembles the unknown car.

 

I was unable to find a circa 1922 Chalmers engine that matched the unknown car.  However, the online pictures of Chalmers engines are limited.  Also, it appears that Chalmers offered more than one six cylinder engine in the late teens and early 1920s.

[Grandpa]

I found an interesting old picture of two Chalmers touring cars at the Paradise Inn, Mt. Rainier National Park, Washington state.  The inn is about 70 miles east of Tenalquot Prairie, were the pictures of the unknown car were taken.  The automobiles pictured at the inn are circa 1920, based on the curved profile of the fenders.  The cars are fairly new, but don't appear to be brand new cars.  The mud splashed on the side of both cars indicates that they were driven on a wet road with the side curtains installed; note that the body of both cars, immediately below the top of the doors, is free of mud.  The car closest to the camera is a 7-passenger touring car; the other car is a 5-passenger touring car.  The 7-passenger car has a slightly longer body with an up-turned "tub" at the rear.  The unknown car is also a 7-passenger touring car.

 

Early 1920s Chalmers are fairly rare because of low production numbers, due to the 1920-21 recession.  Since the cars pictured at the inn could be local to the area, it's possible that the abandoned car to be identified could be the one closet to the camera!

 

The cars shown had a few more years of service life when photographed.  During the Great Depression the salvage value of old cars was nil, so they were often abandoned.  Thus the car pictured, in the original AACA Forum post, was likely abandoned during the depression.  Chalmers production ended in 1923.

 

[Curti]

The black Chalmers in the post above is a 22 or 23.  Years ago we owned one.  I do not recall the engine being as unusual as the one in this post.

 

Edited August 26, 2017 by Curti
update (see edit history)

[Grandpa]

Hi Curti,

 

I agree with your post #68.  The engine in the unknown car is unusual and differs from Chalmers engine pictures that I have found online.  The following are some explanations for consideration:

 

• Since Chalmers manufactured their own engines, perhaps the engine in the unknown car was a limited run of a different design; the unknown engine could also be a reissue of an older design.

 

• The unknown car could be a Cleveland, which was Chalmers' attempt to offer a low priced "Light Six".  Chalmers could have used surplus older style bodies for the Cleveland.  I was unable to find many Cleveland pictures (car or engine) online from circa 1920.

 

• In the time period of the unknown car, Chalmers purchased bodies from the Fisher Body Co.  Perhaps Chalmers sold surplus Fisher bodies to another automobile company circa 1920.

 

[mike6024]

 Here it is pictured yet again, haha

[mike6024]

That photo is held in a museum and they think it was taken in 1918. I suppose they are mistaken.

 

http://digitalcollections.lib.washington.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/imlsmohai/id/5876

 

Title    Chalmers cars at the Paradise Inn, Mount Rainier National Park, ca. 1918
Photographer    Webster & Stevens
Date    ca. 1918
Caption    In 1915, sixteen years after the creation of Mount Rainier National Park, the National Park Service built a single lane road from Longmire Springs to Paradise Valley. The Paradise Inn was built in 1916 and became a popular destination for automobile trips. A car could leave Seattle or Tacoma after breakfast and eat lunch at the Paradise Inn. Before the automobile and better roads, this trip would have taken at least a full day .
In this photo, taken in about 1918, three Chalmers cars full of tourists park in front of Paradise Inn at Mount Rainier.
Subjects    Automobiles; Hotels; National parks & reserves; Paradise Inn (Mount Rainier National Park); Sightseeing
Places    Paradise (Wash.); Rainier, Mount (Wash.); Mount Rainier National Park (Wash.);
Digital Collection    Museum of History & Industry Photograph Collection
Image Number    1983.10.3065
Ordering Information    To order a reproduction or to inquire about permissions contact photos@mohai.org or phone us at 206-324-1126. Please refer to the Image Number and provide a brief description of the photograph.
Repository    Museum of History & Industry, Seattle (MOHAI)

 

Supposedly a Chalmers.

Edited August 26, 2017 by mike6024 (see edit history)

[nzcarnerd]

Seems we are now looking for someone with a Chalmers engine in bits!

[Grandpa]

The car in Post #71 has what appears to be a 1917 Illinois license plate.  James Levy Motors was in Chicago.  Levy was a Chandler dealer; later a Buick dealer when Chandler closed its' doors.

[mike6024]

 

This is the only Chalmers engine that pops up online.  It is not a match.

 

It is this vehicle: 1920 Chalmers 35C - 5, http://barnfinds.com/sixty-years-in-a-barn-1920-chalmers-35-c/

 

Edited August 27, 2017 by mike6024 (see edit history)

[Bloo]

5 hours ago, Grandpa said:

 

• The unknown car could be a Cleveland, which was Chalmers' attempt to offer a low priced "Light Six".  Chalmers could have used surplus older style bodies for the Cleveland.  I was unable to find many Cleveland pictures (car or engine) online from circa 1920.

 

Wasn't the Cleveland a product of Chandler? Wikipedia thinks so, but their article seems to have  issues. I am genuinely curious, because I tend to get Chalmers and Chandler confused, and always have to look up which one of the two was absorbed by Maxwell, and subsequently Chrysler (it was Chalmers) .

[Grandpa]

Correction:  In my Post #73, the James Levy Motors Co. was a Chalmers dealer.  I also get Chalmers & Chandler mixed up.

[30sclassics]

I agree that this is probably a  Chalmers, possibly a 1916, 17, or 18 model 35A, 35B, or 6-30.  There should be a serial number on the driver's side frame horn, and maybe on the passenger side also.  (Please excuse my previous posts steering you to a different rabbit hole.  I will blame my eyesight, rather than ignorance.)   It would be great if Tenalquot could get additional information:  wheelbase, if possible; engine bore; additional pictures of both side of the engine, etc., etc., etc.  There may be another number on the driver's side of the engine.

[Stude17]

I think Grandpa is correct and it is in fact a Chalmers.  The following link shows the exhaust side of a pre 1918 Chalmers engine which appears to match the engine in question.

 

 

 

http://forums.aaca.org/topic/83358-please-help-identify-a-chalmers/?tab=comments#comment-353242

 

[mike6024]

[mike6024]

 

This might be a 1917 Chalmers. Note the detail across the top edge of the doors, like Grandpa said seemed distinctive.