2 door convertibles

[LINC400]

I was at a car show yesterday with some non-car guys and was explaining what a phaeton and dual-cowl phaeton were. They asked me if there was any special term for a regular 2 door convertible. At first I said roadster, but that is a 2 seater. I could not think of any special term for a regular 2 door convertible with back seat other than convertible or cabriolet, which doesn't really specify 2 door with backseat. Is there such a term?

[PFitz]

Do a Google search  for, "Convertible Victoria" and you'll see many examples of two row seating, two door convertibles.

 

Paul

Edited July 2, 2017 by PFitz (see edit history)

[edinmass]

A Roadster has no roll up windows. Reguardless if it has a rumble seat or not.

A Convertiable Coupe has roll up windows.

A Pheaton is five passengers.

A Sport Pheaton is four passengers, and usually close coupled on a shorter wheelbase than the larger series cars.

A Dual Windhield Pheaton has a flip up or roll up rear windshield, No Lid. 4 or 5 passenger.

A Dual Cowl Pheaton is 4 or 5 passenger with a second cowl or lid.

A Touring car is seven passengers with jump seats, and always on the long wheelbase.

 

As usual, there are a small handful of cars that don't quite fit, but the above should cover all open cars except convertiable sedans.

 

You can also sometimes combine the above for an accurate discription..........

 

Dual Windshield Sport Pheaton.......4 passengers, flip up tonneau windshield, close coupled.

 

I can get confusing.......and don't forget Convertiable Victoria's.

 

 

Edited July 2, 2017 by edinmass (see edit history)

[PFitz]

With notable exceptions in the use of "touring car".

 

The term touring was sometimes used by manufacturers for both their 5 and 7 passenger cars into the later 20's, when the term phaeton became more popular. One example, in their owner's manuals and factory literature, starting in 1930 Franklin used the term "touring" for their 5 passenger body style and "phaeton" for their 7 passenger touring - both body styles on their long wheel base.

 

Paul

Edited July 2, 2017 by PFitz (see edit history)

[CarlLaFong]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

.

A Touring car is seven passengers with jump seats, and always on the long wheelbase.

 

As usual, there are a small handful of cars that don't quite fit, but the above should cover all open cars except convertiable sedans.

 

Ford, who built a small handful of cars, (?!?!?!) called their Model T and Model A two seat, open cars, "Touring Cars", might disagree.

BTW, it's "phaeton", not "pheaton"

As with all non standardized terminology, defining a specific name is nearly impossible. The manufacturers are free to call their cars whatever pleases them or sounds cool. Witness the VW Phaeton

I'd be happy if everyone would quit calling wheels, "rims"

 

 

 

Edited July 2, 2017 by CarlLaFong (see edit history)

[oldford]

Touring cars (can be 5 or 7 passenger) were called phaetons in the late 20's and 30's.  Same body. like a roadster, touring cars had no roll up windows.

Cabriolets had roll up windows and a top that would drop and were the early convertibles. Most had closed car type windshields.

 

Frank

[edinmass]

I'm sure we all agree that there was never any consistent use of many body style names, and they evolved over time. On top of the standard  names,  each individual manufacturer often had their own in house name. Sure makes things confusing to people who have only been in the hobby a short time. Cadillac on the V-16 chassis probable had no less than 60 different names for their cars that could be ordered. I'm not sure even in the day if most of the workers and salespeople could keep them straight. Sorry about the spelling, my spell check often changes things and I don't notice it unless I have my good glasses on. If you saw my handwriting you would be greatful for the typos!

[edinmass]

49 minutes ago, PFitz said:

With notable exceptions in the use of "touring car".

 

The term touring was sometimes used by manufacturers for both their 5 and 7 passenger cars into the later 20's, when the term phaeton became more popular. One example, in their owner's manuals and factory literature, starting in 1930 Franklin used the term "touring" for their 5 passenger body style and "phaeton" for their 7 passenger touring - both body styles on their long wheel base.

 

Paul

Didn't Franklin use Phaeton for their Convertiable Sedan at one time. Single marque names could creat an endless list and debate. 

 

The best place for information is the site....... coachbuilt.com

[LINC400]

Well I don't think "Victoria" would be an appropriate term for a regular 2 door convertible. I think of that more like the 1934 Packards that had no quarter windows and a very different more boxy roofline. And I would not call a 2 door a "touring car" either. Besides, I think that they were looking more for a term that not only applied to prewar, but postwar cars as well. I can't see calling a '57 Chevy or new Camaro a Victoria or touring car.

[PFitz]

47 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Didn't Franklin use Phaeton for their Convertiable Sedan at one time. Single marque names could creat an endless list and debate. 

 

The best place for information is the site....... coachbuilt.com

 

 

No phaeton sedans for Franklin as factory models. They used the name "Speedster" for their convertible sedans. It was body style designed by Ray Dietrich when he worked for Franklin in the later 20's.  There were cloth topped sedan versions from 1929-32. And true convertible sedan versions in 1930 and 31. The enclosed speedster bodies for 30 & 31 were built by Walker of Amesbury Mass. The 29 and 32 enclosed bodied speedsters, plus the 30-31 convertible bodies were built by Dietrich's shop.   

 

FYI, Charles Lindbergh had a 30 convertible speedster. Another early aviation pioneer, Capt. Hawks, had a 1931 model 153 Convertible Speedster just like this one in the picture.  

 

Paul

[padgett]

Have felt "speedster" was more appropriate for a two seat car with no top or side windows while "roadster" has become appropriate for a two seater with a disappearing top (folds under the tonneau). One with a top that was visible when folded was a "drophead"  and usually had a fabric cover (e.g. the XK150 was available as both a drophead and a roadster). A car with two rows of seats could be a drophead sedan, and one row a drophead coupe.

 

And then there was the 60's Ford Thunderbird with the roadster option...

 

Like anything else this varied by country and language. YMMV

Edited July 2, 2017 by padgett (see edit history)

[edinmass]

I knew they used an unusual name for a non traditional purpose. Thanks for the post. 

[Mark Huston]

Another term used by Studebaker in the early 1920s was "Chummy Roadster" to describe a four passenger touring style car.   Attached are pictures of one such example.

Edited July 2, 2017 by Mark Huston (see edit history)

[nzcarnerd]

3 hours ago, LINC400 said:

I was at a car show yesterday with some non-car guys and was explaining what a phaeton and dual-cowl phaeton were. They asked me if there was any special term for a regular 2 door convertible. At first I said roadster, but that is a 2 seater. I could not think of any special term for a regular 2 door convertible with back seat other than convertible or cabriolet, which doesn't really specify 2 door with backseat. Is there such a term?

 

Assuming you are talking about a regular production post WW2 car it is simply a convertible, although some makers continued to use the term convertible coupe for a while.

[LINC400]

8 minutes ago, nzcarnerd said:

 

Assuming you are talking about a regular production post WW2 car it is simply a convertible, although some makers continued to use the term convertible coupe for a while.

 

We were looking at a 1931 Packard dual cowl phaeton at the time. They asked what a phaeton was, and then asked if there was a special term for 2 door convertible. They are millennials that are not really into cars. I don't think they even know that cars were not made during WWII so that there are pre and postwar cars. So I was trying to give them some info without boring them. If I gave them a term for a 2 door convertible, I think they would be using it to refer to any 2 door convertible whether a 1930 Duesenberg or 2017 Mustang.

 

I told them they were just generally referred to as convertibles without any special term, and the terms phaeton, dual-cowl phaeton, and roadster were used to differentiate between the more unusual types of convertible bodies. It doesn't seem that anyone here could have given them a better answer, at least not before their attention span was long gone.

[billorn]

I have always kind of used phaeton and touring kind of as the same thing. Manufacturers always had their own specific names for a body style (like the convertible sedans that Buick called phaetons) but a car with no windows, four doors, and a top that goes down can be both a touring car and a phaeton. Things like a dual cowl phaeton are more specific and you dont hear about dual cowl touring cars. Maybe it could be that all phaetons are touring cars but not all touring cars are phaetons. One is more specific then the other.

 

Convertible Victorias and converible coupes are not the same but they did kind of converge at the end of the 1930s when coupes got rid of rumble seats and moved the back seat inside the top. Were there any convertible Victorias by 1940 or were they all convertible coupes by then? What defines one from the other beyond just having the back seat inside the top? Would something like a 1941 Cadillac convertible be considered a Victoria? I dont think so but technically maybe.

 

Cabriolet and convertible coupe are the same to me as well. They are 2 door convertibles with only one seat and roll-up windows. Until later like Victorias above.

 

A Roadster is a 2 door car with a top that goes down and no windows and only one seat inside the top.

 

Of course things changed after the war but this is how I always looked at the earlier cars especially when I was a kid and they were still being used as regular cars in some cases.

 

I agree that its hard to help young people understand when they dont care about the cars anyway. Mustangs they care about but as soon as you start saying "well this one is like this but this other one thats almost the same is a little different and has a different name." Yea the eyes do gloss over when that happens. Will the information be lost in a few years?

[edinmass]

SomI guess we won't even mention Coupe Chauffeur, three position drop head Coupe, shooting brake, club brougham, Town Coupe, St Regis, Club Berline, .......the list is endless! And fascinating!

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

 

19 hours ago, CarlLaFong said:

## if everyone would quit calling wheels, rims.

 I agree. Bugs the daylites out of me.

 

  Ben

[padgett]

Rims are demountable.

[Pomeroy41144]

21 hours ago, nzcarnerd said:

 

Assuming you are talking about a regular production post WW2 car it is simply a convertible, although some makers continued to use the term convertible coupe for a while.

 

 

Ford had the "Club Cabriolet" pre WWII for a convertible two door with rear seat. 

 

 

 

[46 woodie]

I once read that the difference between a roadster and a convertible was, that the roadster had to have a removable windshield, posts and frame. A convertible has a fixed windshield.

[padgett]

That was a good rule of thumb for prewar cars but postwar the definition blurred a bit. Advertisers are liable to use any term that sounds good.

 

ps with a screwdriver you could remove the windscreen posts and frame from a MGA, suspect some Austins were similar but AFAIR the 100-4 just folded down a bit. 

Edited July 3, 2017 by padgett (see edit history)

[PFitz]

Some European car makers still use the term "cabriolet" to mean a two door, rear seat, convertible.

 

But in the context of the OP (while standing near a 1931 car), "convertible Victoria" was a commonly accepted term of that era.

 

Paul

Edited July 3, 2017 by PFitz (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

Cabriolet is a foreign language word. I use good old American words like Chevrolet, can't get any more American than that!

Bernie

[CarlLaFong]

1 hour ago, padgett said:

Rims are demountable.

They can be, but that is not the defining feature. All wheels, that have provisions for mounting a tire, have rims. Most are fixed, some are demountable. It just bugs me when someone says their car has wire rims. I want to ask them, "What are the spokes made from?"

[emjay]

Nobody has mention cloverleaf roadster.  Wasn't there a Club as well.  My dad and his brother modified a Model A Ford roadster into a cloverleaf roadster in the Thirties.

[nzcarnerd]

3 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

Cabriolet is a foreign language word. I use good old American words like Chevrolet, can't get any more American than that!

Bernie

 

 

Chevrolet is French.

[john2dameron]

I think it is simpler if we leave the European terms cabriolet and drophead for the European autos.  Each manufacturer had their own terms for their auto body styles but I think we can easily put most American soft-top autos into six classes.  Most of the time a lower priced, full size car with a top that could be lowered and with two rows of seats under the top and snap-in windows was a touring car; builders that considered themselves more upmarket than Ford and Chevrolet called their touring cars phaetons.  Cars with only one row seats under the top, and with snap-in windows were roadsters or runabouts, whether or not there was also a rumble seat behind the top.  Then roll-up windows became popular and we had convertibles, which was a two door auto that had two rows of seats under the roof, and convertible sedans, which had roll-up windows and four doors.  Convertible coupes had no back seat or a back seat with less leg room for back seat passengers than a regular convertible.  Convertible coupes such as Fords and Chevrolets were last seen in 1948 but then many manufacturers began calling their convertibles with normal leg room in the back seat area, convertible coupes.  So it is no wonder that we disagree on what to call our cars.  The root of the problem is that the manufacturers did not agree either and they are the ones that created the confusion.