Help with prices

[Guest Carsarego]

Hi!

 

Seeing as I'm new here, I should probably introduce myself.

 

I'm a car enthusiast living in France. I know this site is the "Antique automobile club of America" but we don't seem to have the same internet sites in my country as this one and I was eager to join when I saw the incredible work that people did here. I'm going to use euros in this post seeing as it's not very important for what I'm talking about but ordinarily I would do the conversion. 

 

I'll explain the problem I've been having. Recently, I decided to try and fulfill a lifelong dream of mine and restore an old car (pre-1975). I'm not that picky as it's really a matter of what comes around. For the moment, I'm looking more at old Peugeots and Renaults (not sure if you have many in the states) but they're cute (and highly eccentric cars) as a general. I know the work involved, I've got the space to do it and I have some welder and mechanic friends who have offered to help me out and give me some advice should I need it.There's also a man who's been restoring old cars for 30 years in my village who I can ask for help. 

 

The issue I'm having and I'll admit I'm not sure if it's the same in the States but people seem to be asking ridiculous amounts for their old cars. To be clear, I'm not talking about rare models. Completely knackered 2CVs which when they're completely restored and working sell for about 4000-6000€ (depending on the model) have people wanting 3000€ for them. It's the same with a multitude of cars, not rare or particularly valuable with people asking ludicrous amounts. It's also not that they only need a few hundred euros and a few hours spent on them. These things would take months of work (probably a lot more for me) and a lot of money in the long run to get them back up and running again. In short, if you bought them for these prices you would end up paying in many cases twice what the car is actually worth. People also won't negotiate, at least not by much. They have the idea it's worth X in their head and no matter how much you explain the maths to them, they won't accept it. 

 

Now, I can understand with some of these cars that these people have started to get them restored by professionals and in most cases ended up spending in excess of 3000€ which on the cars we're talking about is insane and not at all financially sound but oh well. It's the ones which haven't been touched and garage finds which have me confused. 

 

I was wondering if this is the same in the U.S. and maybe some of you have some experience with it? Any advice/ideas?

 

Thanks and I apologize if this sounds like a rant. 

[George Smolinski]

Welcome, and yes it's the same here. I see hundreds of cars the are not worth what people ask for them. One general rule I use is to find two of what I'm looking for/at, one that needs a lot of work & one that is in nice condition. I ask myself if I bought the one needing all the work, could I have it in the condition of the nice one for the difference in price between the two. If no, I won't buy the one needing all the work. If you're restoring a car that is special to you for whatever reason, I don't think it's as critical especially if you plan on keeping it.

[Frantz]

Welcome! Yep, it's the same there. In the new/used car market the price is pretty close to this formula: "What will be worth minus the cost to get it to that value". Antique is different. It's "How close to the dream is this example". 

The best advise I can say is use word of mouth and keep those options open and buy the nicest example you can afford!

Word of mouth is how to get the good deals. Genuine folks who either aren't looking to make a killing, or don't want to bother with placing an ad. There are lots of both solid projects and nice machines that don't need much with bored, tired, broke, older owners who just don't bother to advertise. They are more likely to have a realistic expectation of value, and you won't be competing with every anon person on the internet pestering with tire kicking questions. They are often more interested in being helpful to your getting their old project finished, or their old pride and joy back in the public eye and enjoyed by a new family.

It sounds like you have open options. I've heard of a 2CV though. Popular can be more valuable than rare sometimes in this hobby. I love orphan cars, so like in the states "Rambler" makes one of the best bangs for the buck as a combination of lower values with decent aftermarket support (the other piece of the puzzle for new to the hobby folks). You can get some pretty sporty Ramblers/AMCs for a fraction of their Chevy counterpart figures. There were enough of them that the internet has really expanded the aftermarket interest and available of parts. The people are a little more interesting in general too. So check out those orphan cars!

And projects are fun. I enjoy the junk I buy. It gives me pleasure to learn about them and work them back to the road. I am working on a '54 Ford currently I paid $500 for. Great deal for a complete car, if I was parting it out. But since I'm working on it, to get it to the level I'd really want will still be a solid $15-20k... it's a 4 door so it will be worth half that. To get it to be a points winning ca will cost tens of thousands more. Doesn't mean I won't do it eventually, but I can't look at the dollars for justification. If you want to get right in the hobby with driving and enjoying, buy something that you'll be proud to drive right away. You'll get some tinkering time for maintenance and repairs. Then you can buy a project to work on, but that project will be less stressful and far more enjoyable if you have a "completed" old car to enjoy! Driving the finished car will also get you in the mood to work on the project. It always does for me.

Good luck and don't be shy! I know it's not cheap to visit the states, but we get lots of friends all over the world at several of our shows. I know here local there are many new accents near the Hershey event in the fall.

[poci1957]

2 hours ago, Frantz said:

It sounds like you have open options...........Popular can be more valuable than rare sometimes in this hobby.

 

......If you want to get right in the hobby with driving and enjoying, buy something that you'll be proud to drive right away. You'll get some tinkering time for maintenance and repairs. Then you can buy a project to work on, but that project will be less stressful and far more enjoyable if you have a "completed" old car to enjoy! Driving the finished car will also get you in the mood to work on the project. It always does for me.

 

Good advice from Frantz above.  Just to expand on his comments, a 2CV is what I would call an "icon" car, meaning a popular instantly recognized old car, such as a 1957 Chevy over here.  The "icon" car is not rare, it is often quite common, but because it is famous with the public owners often think their project cars are worth too much money as you have found.  In your case rather than a 2CV maybe a 1950s Renault 4CV or Dauphine would be a thought?  Many were made so maybe they would be easier to find cheap and still with good parts availability?  Good luck with your project, Todd C

 

[Guest Carsarego]

Sorry, I didn't mention. Yes I would definitely keep it. I'm in it for the driving pleasure (once it's all done) and the joy of the project as opposed to making money. So it's not like I'm trying to make a profit at the end of the day. 

 

I've tried scrap dealerships and junkyards but that's just impossible. I might not be trying to make money but I'd obviously rather not spend more on a wreck than it would cost to buy a functioning car. Also, it's not easy to negotiate many people I've tried actually insult anyone trying to knock down their prices. So far, I'm leaning more towards car auctions. There's a big demand here for cars leading little to no restoration work, especially of prestigious brands such as Porshe, etc.

 

The price of wrecks varies so much I find myself scratching my head. I found some auction results for a sale I couldn't attend. Big mistake. Had I been there, I would have bought one of these things myself. However I don't understand how a 1929 Ford that's in okay condition can sell for 250€ but a Simca from 1970 in similar condition can fetch 1400€. Simcas aren't that rare (at least not in rural France) or even (okay this is subjective) particularly cute. I understand that it depends who's there on the day but whoa... I must be missing something...

 

We don't have many American cars here (new or vintage) at least not in rural world, we get Fords and increasingly Chevys. I'll admit I'm quite fond of the 1967 Mustang Eleanor but that's not going to happen on my budget . Our equivalents are Renault, Peugeot and the marvelously eccentric and bizarre Citroëns. @poci1957, yeah... The odd thing is I see a lot of those things around where I live because their original owners never got rid of them and are still driving them today. We call them tractors with a roof. Like you said, I'm thinking more Dauphine, early Peugeot or very early Citroën. 

 

Visiting the U.S. is on my to do list. If any of you are passing by France with some nice cars don't hesitate to drop by.

[poci1957]

25 minutes ago, Carsarego said:

Like you said, I'm thinking more Dauphine, early Peugeot or very early Citroën. 

 

Just a note, we Americans do not see many French cars over here and most of us know little or nothing about them other than maybe being able to recognize a 2CV in the movies.  BUT Renaults were imported here and in the late 1950s the Dauphine was the #2 import in the US behind only the VW Beetle.  They imported the Renault Caravelle (Floride) in the 1960s and I understand they are already appreciating in Europe.  Hope you find something you can enjoy, Todd C       

[Vintageben]

Yeah we have a similar problem in Australia. I've found it cheaper to buy an older restoration that needs a bit of tidying up then a full blown project and again it's usually through word of mouth my latest edition happened that way but it took 2 years to get the word. My first car was purchased through the local trading post I got it for a lot less then the asking price but the poeple were not overly interested in sell it well he wasn't but his wife was. It took me    twelve months to get enough money to make what I thought was a fair offer and in this time I had also built up a bit of a relationship with the seller so he felt happy that the car was going to a good home and at the end of the day I think it was more this then the money that made the deal, I was only sixteen at the time but I still have the car and love it 20 years on. 

I guess what I'm trying to say is be patient talk to as many poeple as you can in the old car movement in your area and eventually something will come up. On the 2CV I still don't get the fascination give me a Traction Avant any day or an early Renault.

Oh another thought I'm pleased your not hoping to make money out of the car you purchase so many people make this mistake thinking they are to only to be disappointed the way I look at it is its a hobby it's not meant to make money it's meant to bring enjoyment happy memories etc so that's how I value potential buys oh and of course my budget (not huge) and these days also approval from the Minister for Finance and Planing (wife)?

Edited June 21, 2017 by Vintageben (see edit history)

[drwatson]

Let your passion lead the way and you'll have what you want. 

[Rusty_OToole]

It is more or less the same here in Canada. Sometimes you see a certain car, and the owner wants $15000 dollars (dreamer) a week later you see an ad for a car that is practically the same for $2500, In this country people are dazzled by the prices they see on TV of antique car auctions and other shows.

 

I don't know how it is in France but it might be those guys who want 3000 E are just trying it on, if you offered 200 E you might end up buying it for 800.

 

The best bargains are the cars that need the least work. A car that needs everything, will cost far more to restore than what you would pay for a good one and will never be as good.

 

In this country there are certain makes and models that are highly desirable and expensive, others not so much. I like Chrysler products because they are good cars, parts are available, and they usually sell for less money than the equivalent from other makers. I don't know about French makes. You might even do better buying a German or Italian car.

 

In your case I don't know what to suggest. Look in your local advertisements for someone selling a 'used car' not a 'rare antique'. There are usually good deals to be found if you are patient and keep looking. I know if I looked at the ads every week, I could bring home a car every 2 or 3 weeks. They are not all overpriced junk.

 

 

[Rusty_OToole]

There is another technique I have used successfully. You say there are a lot of old cars still on the road, being used as daily transportation. Look around and see if there are any sitting unused in driveways and yards.

 

I used to keep my eyes open for cars with expired registration or no plates especially in nice neighborhoods.

 

If I spotted one I wanted, here is what I would do. I found Saturday morning was best because the owner was more likely to be home.

 

I would knock on the door, if I got an answer I would say " Hi, I notice you have a car you are not using. I wonder if you would like to sell it?" Then say no more until they answer. I worked on this phrase for a long time to get it exactly right. I have never had anyone take offense at it.

 

Most of the time the answer was no. But once out of every 5 or 10 times I would get the car and it was usually a bargain because no one else was bidding.

 

This works best in the better off neighborhoods. A rich man will sell an old car cheap to get rid of it, a few Euros won't make much difference to him. While a poor man will squeeze the last penny out of a real tenth hand junker.

[39BuickEight]

Cars in dead storage are usually property of people who aren't current with the car market.  If they are willing to sell, they just assume that that car is worth a lot because it is old.  If they needed the money, they would have already sold it.  It can be challenging for sure to educate someone on the value of their car.  The best approach I can advise is similar to what Mike does on the TV show American Pickers.  He will tell them all about it without discussing price at all.  That builds rapport and shows interest.  From there its about being genuine and walking away courteously when needed.  You never know when they may call you back if they like you.

[billorn]

I look at it 2 ways. First is to just buy the car restored because its cheaper than restoring it yourself. Second is to buy a car you love and enjoy the work and dont worry about the value. Those are two opposite ends of the story but I think it boils down to what you want to do with the car. If you like the work, then do the work and enjoy yourself that way. If you just want the car buy a finished car and start enjoying it. Two ways to enjoy a car. Neither one is wrong. Both will cost you more than you think. Just think about what part of owning an old car you like best. Is it working on it or driving it?

[Rusty_OToole]

Best buy I made using the above described technique -

 

Some years ago I spotted a 1966 Dodge Coronet sedan in a suburban driveway. It had not moved in months and the plates were expired. On saturday morning I did the exact technique above.

 

The owner's son answered the door. He said " It's my dad's car, I don't know if he wants to sell but Mom has been after him to get rid of it". When I heard that I knew I could write my own ticket.

 

I ended up buying the car for $50. I thought it had 134,000 miles, it turned out to be 34,000. The seller had inherited the car from his grandfather who bought it new. This was some 15 years ago, I still have the car.

[Guest]

Have you or would you consider a Simca Aronde Oceane.  My best friend from school days (while we were in school and shortly after) had several Studebakers and Prefects none of which were very satisfactory.  The ones he could afford were totally worn out.  His next car was a Simca.  What a wonderful car, lovely in town or on the road and the easiest convertible top to put up or down.  He drove it for years.  For those on this forum that may not be familiar with this auto I have attached a picture of one similar to my friends.

Happy hunting and hobbying when you find your car.

[Guest Carsarego]

Thanks for all the replies. 

Good to know (at least it kind of is?) that it's not just a French issue. I've actually had the same problem in things outside of cars, namely the world of antiques, it seems people put things on at too high a price because it's old, others see said items and put there's on at the same or a little more and things just carry on from there. End result, these things just sit around unsold and rusting. There was an auction I saw recently where over half the cars didn't sell because they had reserves on which were over 2x what they were worth working. Real shame. 

 

I'll try asking but one of the issues is that these cars are still being used in day to day travel. There was an old lady in my village who'd been driving a Renault Dauphine since the 50s, thing still worked all those years later and apparently had only ever had a couple of minor problems. Concerning Simcas (50s-60s, probably as I'm not a fan of the 1970s models), I'd definitely look into one if I saw it but they do seem to be on the more expensive side. I don't know why. 

 

I'll be patient and keep my eyes open. If/when I get one, I might post on this site. 

Thanks for all your help,

[Frantz]

Quote

I'll try asking but one of the issues is that these cars are still being used in day to day travel.

Those are not the cars you want. First, you competing against their utility value, and you'll never win that. What would it cost that little old lady to buy something newer? Well since in her mind nothing is wrong with her car, she'd need that to be willing to give hers up! Additionally, if you're interested in an AACA type vehicle where you'll be focused on originality.... there is a good chance not much is original on a car that old still in use. Mechanics will have given her plenty of "good enough" fix options over the years. There are projects that are financially worth doing, but if you're main concern is budget, then you really should just save a little more and buy what you want at a fair price that's already done. I have a great collection of cool projects, but I would have been better off only buying completed cars with everything I own.

[Rusty_OToole]

So what do they do with a car when they stop using it? Are you saying there are NO cars sitting unused? I find that hard to believe. Try walking around, or going slowly by bicycle. You will be surprised how many old cars you spot in driveways, yards, and in garages that are not being used. If you see a car in exactly the same spot day after day for a month it is probably not being used. You have to look, and develop an eye for this. It happens as a life long car nut, I automatically notice these things. You may need to work on it a bit. But if there are old cars on the road there are old cars not being used.

 

Another way is to ask people. There may be old cars that have been locked up in garages for years that someone knows about, and may talk about if they think you are interested.

 

Ebay has done a lot to bring down prices of a lot of things. Someone may believe they have a rare, one of a kind item because they have never seen another one. Then they look on Ebay and see a dozen for sale.

 

I don't know what advertising and sales venues you have available but vintage car auctions and dealers are the worst place to find a bargain.

Edited June 22, 2017 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[Vintageben]

My old boss reckoned I must have been able to smell vintage iron. As when we were on different farms I often said to him "there's a vintage car in that shed over there I need to talk to the owner about having a look". My boss would say "how do know that you haven't been here before or near that shed" my reply would be " I can feel it" and most of the time I was right. Don't ask me how it works but my father and I have been frustrating the rest of our family with these sort of tricks for as long as I can remember. 

Any way you will eventually pick up the scent best of luck and do share some photos of what you get Cheers Ben

[Guest Carsarego]

5 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

So what do they do with a car when they stop using it? Are you saying there are NO cars sitting unused? I find that hard to believe. Try walking around, or going slowly by bicycle. You will be surprised how many old cars you spot in driveways, yards, and in garages that are not being used. If you see a car in exactly the same spot day after day for a month it is probably not being used. You have to look, and develop an eye for this. It happens as a life long car nut, I automatically notice these things. You may need to work on it a bit. But if there are old cars on the road there are old cars not being used.

 

I'm not sure how things are in America, from what I've gathered cars (we're just talking average not all that old) are a lot cheaper than they are in France. Over here, it will cost you 10 000€+ on average for a new car, even a smaller one. It's actually far cheaper for most people to go abroad to get their cars. Second-hand cars aren't much better, again, for one which isn't going to give you much hassle for a few years and is likely to remain functioning, you're talking 5000€+. Even with loans etc. It's a price a lot of people can't pay. Equally, over half of all second hand cars bought from dealers have been fiddled. For this reason, people will run their cars into the ground. I'm not kidding. Even if, ironically in the long run they end up spending more than it would cost to buy a new one. 

 

I agree, some of these things will have stopped working/no longer be a viable car and will be sitting around in barns. The trick's finding them. There's a guy in my village who restores old cars as a hobby, I'm guessing seeing how things work around here it's all about connections. I'll see what he says. Given that he doesn't make any money off of them, I'm hoping he'll be willing to help.

 

As for Ebay, my experience is completely different. I've found it's ruined buying/selling for older objects (cars or otherwise). I actually have a fair bit of experience with using it for the antiques market. I have found it to have ruined both antiques and cars here. This is largely because of people (particularly dealers) being not understanding the system and/or being greedy. If you notice on Ebay, nowadays most things are on "Buy it now". As far as antiques are concerned, many of these prices are for lack of a better word insane (between 4x to 10x (in extreme cases) what the thing is actually worth). This is caused by dealers logging on and seeing said asking prices and mistaking them for the thing's real value, which is roughly what you would get for it on open bidding. This pushes prices up in auction as they believe they can bid higher for something, as it's worth more. I know it sounds dumb but I can go into an auction any day of the week and see someone doing this with their smartphone. So these items pop up on Ebay at these absurd prices and unsurprisingly don't sell. It also affects everyday punters, who see these prices and assume that's what it's worth. Trying to deal with them then becomes impossible as they assume you're trying to rip them off. It's causing the antiques market to grind to a halt here as dealers stockpile everything and even the general public stops trying to sell things in auctions as when they're given an estimate it doesn't match the asking prices on Ebay.

 

The same is true for cars. Take the Renault Dauphine for example, seeing as we were talking about it earlier. If you look up auction results and what the car sells for on average, you get about 5000-6000€. I swear I've seen them listed at almost 40 000€, with many being 8000€+. Many of these will be dealers but also some everyday people who see these prices and think that's what they're worth. 

 

That's one of the main issues I'm having when I ask people, they look it up on Ebay and say: "Hey, look at this one. That's what I want." As I've said, it's darn near impossible to explain things to them. After all, in some cases it's a 4000€ difference and that's a lot to stomach.

Edited June 22, 2017 by Carsarego (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

That is absurd. I know the Dauphine, they were about a $1500 car new. Same with VW buses pre 68. They seem to be going for absurd prices in Europe.

 

The cheapest new car in Canada is about $15,000. That would be for a mini car with 1500cc engine. The typical car or minivan with V6 is more like $35,000. But you can easily buy a 10 year old used car for $5000 or less in good condition, even a Mercedes.

 

Hmm a friend of mine abandoned a Dauphine in a storage warehouse 30 years ago. Wonder if it is still there.

Edited June 22, 2017 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[poci1957]

21 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

There is another technique I have used successfully........ Look around and see if there are any sitting unused in driveways and yards.

 

I used to keep my eyes open for cars with expired registration or no plates especially in nice neighborhoods.

 

I would knock on the door (and)........say " Hi, I notice you have a car you are not using. I wonder if you would like to sell it?" Then say no more until they answer........................Most of the time the answer was no. But once out of every 5 or 10 times I would get the car and it was usually a bargain because no one else was bidding.

 

This works best in the better off neighborhoods. A rich man will sell an old car cheap to get rid of it, a few Euros won't make much difference to him. While a poor man will squeeze the last penny out of a real tenth hand junker.

 

I like Rusty's comments above, this type of thinking works here in the middle of the US, or at least did before so many people got delusions of grandeur from cable TV shows.  As a youth this was what I did, especially (as he mentions) in nicer neighborhoods where an old car sitting around is not popular.  As Franz said trying to buy a car still in use may be less effective than finding Rusty's neglected second car and in this situation the nagging wife is indeed likely your best friend. 

[60FlatTop]

I guess people holding out for high prices indicates the economy is doing well in Europe. And you are looking for a car as a toy. That is a real sign of prosperity when North America used to have the wealthy people and abundance of discretionary money.

 

My best luck with sellers asking high prices or "fishing" for offers is to ask what they would buy with some extra money. A roof, washer & dryer, new windows for the house, those kind of things are high on the list. If you item is within your range you can say "Yes, I'll buy you that for the car."  Then you have an objective value.

 

French cars always make me smile. I must have still been in my teens when I heard "The French copy no one, and no one copies the French." They sure got that one right. Although I could be talked into a Citroen SM quite easily.

 

The car hobby is very adaptable. It changes to meet the needs of the hobbyist and a wide range of budgets. Think about why you want the car, what really pleases you, are you buying to make yourself feel good or impress someone as you drive by? A 10 year old car, bright and shiny, will look dated and impressive in the right colors. Picking a nice 1999 or 20000 model car of the right condition and style might be a real wise choice. 1992 cars are 25 years old and considered antiques cars. 7 or 8 years goes by real fast. Just don't marry a car. If it doesn't meet your expectations sell it. You will probably make a little money to buy a better one.

Bernie

[Rusty_OToole]

It's all the typical blah blah of someone who won't make the slightest effort not even to educate himself. He looked at buying from a dealer or at an antique auction and got heart disease at the cost. Came here complaining about it. We give him encouragement and all we get is more self justifying blah blah about how he can't do this and can't do that. A year from now he will still be sitting in front of his computer complaining because he never got what he wanted handed to him on a silver plate with whipped cream and a cherry on top. I give up.

[Guest Carsarego]

54 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said:

It's all the typical blah blah of someone who won't make the slightest effort not even to educate himself. He looked at buying from a dealer or at an antique auction and got heart disease at the cost. Came here complaining about it. We give him encouragement and all we get is more self justifying blah blah about how he can't do this and can't do that. A year from now he will still be sitting in front of his computer complaining because he never got what he wanted handed to him on a silver plate with whipped cream and a cherry on top. I give up.

 

Okay. I'll admit, I'm a little confused. Are you referring to me?

 

In which case, I apologize if I offended your sensitivities somehow. 

 

I will however attempt to address some of the criticisms you have made of me: 

 

My reason for coming here, as stated above wasn't to complain but rather to seek advice. I intend to do what the kind members of this site have advocated although please consider that it is not always so simple for everyone. As, some of us for instance, might be shy. For instance, offering a trade had genuinely never occurred to me as a possible solution and around where I live it could easily be the best one. For instance, I'm sure some of the older residents might consider me trading me a more modern car that I fixed up for one of their old bangers. 

 

As I stated, the prices at auctions seem reasonable they simply don't come up very often. I was simply curious as to know if there was something I was missing or if there were another few tricks I could possibly use. I also wanted to know what things were like in the states as I have something of a pension for some of the American models.

 

Lastly, please do not claim that I have not educated myself. That was my main reason for coming here. I have also spent many days and hours asking around and checking things out. My first response, as strange as it may seem, is not to plague the car enthusiasts of the United States with my problems. It was something suggested to me by a local expert here as we don't have the same online community and they were genuinely curious to see if it was the same elsewhere as they had been considering trying to import some American models which remain rare here.

[60FlatTop]

Don't worry about the comments here. Just pick the ones you like.

 

I started with cars when I was quite young, but it didn't take long to figure the old guy's diets.

 

That's where the cheery disposition comes from.

 

My Wife says I get entirely too much entertainment out of people. But I feel like a bright, shiny, well balanced, Snap On combination wrench!

Bernie

Bernie

[Guest Carsarego]

Did you make that? You just made me hungry! 

 

My mother makes tarts just like that! They're delicious. That and they use some of life's precious lemons.

 

I'm still pretty young, so I'm in no particular hurry.

[Vintageben]

Ha ha ha it's pretty funny how some poeple get wound up easily including myself some times. Yeah  I sort of gather the  afordability factor in Europe might be a problem as when we visited my wife's family in Germany they thought I was some kind of Baron or rich playboy ( I wish ?) because I own three vintage cars. It also made me wonder when I picked up an OldTimer magazine and found a 1927 Chev similar to mine and in not much better condition and I think the asking price was around 20,000 euro  I nearly fell over I think if I got $12000 au for mine it would be a good days work not that it is for sale. Have you checked out the pre-war car site they probably have stuff closer to your home as well

[Guest Carsarego]

Ah, Germany's a little closer to home. I suppose some of the 'asking prices' might be negotiable but whether or not you could ever talk it back down to sensible levels is another matter. Again, largely why I think I'm going to favor auctions. 

 

I'd never heard of the "Pre-war car site" but I have looked them up now. I love some of those things, especially the engines. Curiously, for reasons I can't quite understand really old cars (late 1920s - 1930s) don't seem to be as expensive especially ones which need some work. You can pick one up generally for under 1000€. I'm not sure if that's because you can't drive it down the motorway at 130kph or what but it strikes me as odd. I saw one recently (but tragically couldn't attend the auction), a Ford from 1929 in not that bad condition only go for 250€. 

[Vintageben]

Yeah the cars of the 20s and 30s are more affordable here in Australia then many of the 50s 60s  70s cars well the ones I like any way. I think the reason is partly to do with what people have fond child hood memories about and there is not so many people left from the 20s 30s plus these cars are not so practical and yeah you can't cruise at 130 kph but so what I say people should learn how to have fun slower and practical is what modern cars are for. I just love the earlier cars, I've stuck with common makes for affordability and parts availability. I would love a veteran car pre 1919 but my finances at this stage won't allow that but I'm patient and will steadily work towards it. If there is a car club near you join it and tag a long to get a feel for what era feels right for you I know on our club outings there is always someone on there own looking for a co-pilot. Doing this will give you a good insight into the fun you can have at a much slower pace.

[60FlatTop]

It is another field, but I have been involved in cost reduction and energy conservation since the first American oil embargo days in 1973. The focus of many businesses has been to fight high prices by reducing prices of their consumables. There has been what is called transportation gas, purchased at the wellhead. At least fifteen iterations of lighting systems that are nearly laughable in their application, and a ton of tax dollar funded gyrations that have not made a significant difference during the 40 years. BUT, I made a pretty good living herding the sheep and paid close attention to their efforts.

 

After 50 years in the business I can safely reveal the secret of how to fight high prices. Go out and make more money! It works. Get educated, learn where the money is and how to get it. If you have the slightest marketable skill, form whatever the European equivalent of a US "S" Corporation is as young as possible.

 

Cars for toys really is a pastime of the wealthy. Just recognize the level you want to play at and work that much. If prices seem high you don't have enough money, yet.

 

Look at how your choice in collector cars fits into the rest of your life and owned items as well. Establish a range that is your territory and know it. About four years ago I had a chance to buy quite a valuable CCCA car. The cash was in a big wad in my pocket, but it just didn't match anything else I owned. I started getting real uncomfortable about owning it when it got close to trigger pulling time I didn't do it. Some of the cash is in a plastic ink cartridge pack for quick cash, some is dispersed through three tin cans only my son knows the whereabouts of, and I think very little ever hit a bank account. And the big classy car is gone. A dream car, but then, some dreams aren't meant to materialize. Just knowing that is more comfortable than buying the wrong car.

 

Bernie

[Guest]

Bernie you have said a mouthful and are absolutely correct.  

The first time I overhauled the engine in my daily driver it cost me 2.5 months wages, the second time was 1 month wages and this last time it was 21 times more expensive than the first time but was less than I months current wages.  The total for 58 years of driving 138/year or .016 cents per mile.  Not very much to keep my dream of driving my Grandfather's car as my daily driver for my entire life.

Need more money, work harder/smarter and make more money.

Some one once said "If you have to ask the price, you can't afford it".

When we shop for a new (to her) car for my wife she knows how much money she has or is willing to spend. We road test a car with me driving and I let her know if it is a good car or not.  She negotiates (but usually has already written a cheque between the road test and the office)  finally after the salesman has made a few trips to the manager and they haven't agreed yet she shows him the cheque and says it is good for five minutes only, take it or leave it.  In five minutes we get up to leave and have been almost off the lot sometimes when they have accepted the offer.  Twice they didn't and she told me it didn't matter how much she liked the car, it wasn't worth that much to her.  Dreams are wonderful but reality is where we are.

[Guest Carsarego]

A quick update: I did get something... But it's not a car. Instead, I picked up an old French motorcycle from the tail end of the 1940s or very beginning of 1950. She's in one heck of a state as you can see from the photo but she is insanely cute. 

 

Believe it or not this thing actually has a gear stick.

[auburnseeker]

One good thing with a motorcycle over a car.  They take up a whole lot less space,  especially when they are all torn apart.  Parts are easier and cheaper to ship and it will only need 2 tires not 4 or 5 or 6 depending on what you might have ended up with.  Probably a mag so you don't even need a battery.   Upholstery is going to be a whole lot cheaper as well.  Makes me kind of wonder why I didn't get into bikes instead of cars. 

[padgett]

Rain

[1912Staver]

Bikes are a real mixed blessing. As padget points out anything other than nice day rides are unenjoyable. There is a definite increase in risk compared to a car. Almost any MC rider has had close calls and as often as not knows riders who either died or suffered serious injuries while riding. I rode a fair bit in my younger days ; still have a Norton or two in the garage, but I am rarely tempted these days to  test my luck. 

 Restoring a motorcycle can be surprisingly expensive, especially the more desirable machines. And as expected the odd balls and orphans can be extremely hard to find parts for. Unlike cars if a so -so example is parted out ;say on ebay, virtually every part will sell.  With British bikes at least when you add up the sold prices the total is almost always greater than the intact bike would have been worth. Sometimes quite a bit greater.

 

But yes, they are so much more economical for storage and shop space. And unlike many lower end collector  cars most of the average and better ; model wise not condition, bikes are slowly but surely going up in value.  At least as fast as inflation if not better in some cases.

 

Greg in Canada

 

 

Edited September 22, 2017 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Guest Carsarego]

This is a Motoconfort C45s from the end of 1949, beginning of 1950. It's not exactly a rare bike per-say so parts are relatively cheap and easy to come by. They are ludicrously eccentric however and by today's standards ridiculously dangerous (any bike where you have to lean over the side to change the gear is just mad). I wouldn't ride one in rainy or icy conditions that's for sure. Even when they were brand new their brakes were known to be not the best in the world. I actually have all of the parts and the engine turns over. I'm fairly sure that she's going to be more difficult than she looks to fix up though.

[1912Staver]

I was quite involved with British bikes dating from the early post war period to about 1970 .  Generally 500 singles and 500 /650 twins. I was a fan from my youth in the late 1970's up to about the year 2000 when my son was born. About that time traffic conditions and the fate of a number of friends and acquaintances plus my new status as a father caused me to rethink my involvement. 

 An observation / conclusion I came to with regards to which bike to select was that the smaller bikes { 250'3/350's  were almost as expensive to restore , were often harder to find parts for, were not nearly as useable as the larger bikes, and generally sold for quite a bit less than the larger bikes when finished. { much less likely to recover cost of restoration}. There are always exceptions especially any of the racing / competition model 250's. But your Motoconfort looks like a fairly standard ,small ,general transportation machine.

 I am not saying don't restore it, I am sure you can have a very enjoyable time with it. But be carefull how much you spend in the process.  I would try to network with other owners as much as possible. You will probably find people with used parts such as wheels and possibly a gas tank that will sell to you at a much lower price than you could possibly restore what you have. I wouldn't worry about making everything perfect, just try to make it a running , rideable  bike again. If you like it you can always spend money on appearance related  parts later. At least you appear to have both fenders, chainguard, rear rack etc. these are often the hardest parts to find for older bikes.

 

Greg in Canada