322 engine tear down

[Kosage Chavis]

Kosage - 0

Mr Willie - 2

 

I'm coming back hard next time.  Just wait, I will get something right.

[KAD36]

4 hours ago, Beemon said:

Does anyone have a source for crank and cam sprockets? Both sets of mine are worn in. If they're okay to use, I'll reuse them, but all I can find is 364/401/425 stuff. Will they work?

 

Check my bill of material, first tab in the spreadsheet from previous post #63 which includes Ident, Part Number, Manufacturer, price, budget, actual cost, seller

 

Hmmm - can't seem to paste in from the spreadsheet on post 63.  Whiskey Tango.....

 

Advance Auto - S332 SR Gears Cam  S276 SR Gears Crank

 

 

364/401 gears will not swap to a 322 crank or cam.  You need to keep the gears matched to the cam or crank, unless you are doing the cam swap as originally discussed

Edited June 15, 2017 by KAD36 (see edit history)

[Beemon]

4 hours ago, old-tank said:

 Don't do it.  remove the ridge.  The new rings will hit the ridge and break the piston land.

Is this only for installation or during use? 

 

Ken, s332 and s276 are the same as the 364/401/425, so I'm confused now. Those were the part numbers the Napa book gave me

Edited June 15, 2017 by Beemon (see edit history)

[Beemon]

I got the crank and 7 pistons out. For some reason, all the crank journals except the rear were rusted and pitted. Same with the bearings. The rear main is spotless, but the seal surface is also pretty nasty. Most of it can be polished off, but I found out why the engine was pulled - #1 rod bearing blew out. The rod is fine, and there was still some bearing, but the crank is pretty messed up on #1. So now I guess I'll be reusing my crank out of the other engine, along with those bearings.

 

 

#4 piston needs to soak longer.

 

 

And of course... here's my original running block:

 

The block I bought for the rods, crank (ugh) and pistons:

 

And the bare block:

 

[Beemon]

This whole thing is very depressing to be honest.... if I need to remove the ridge on the block, I'll use a reamer tool from the parts store rentals. Same thing with the valve seat cutter, if I go that far for freshening the valve seats. For installing rings in a stock block with some wear, do I use stock rings or somewhat oversized rings, like .010" over? I don't need to hone the block, right? I mean, I know I should, but will the rings seat without honing?

[JohnD1956]

Your plan is to build a temporary motor so the car can be driven to a machinist shop and disassembled and rebuild the motor?

Maybe the plan should be :rent a truck and bring the motor parts to the machinist and work with him for the best alternative.

I know you want to move the car away from the drug addict @ grampa's but, if the car is there with no way to move it on its own, is that an absolute part of your plan?  From my perspective if it was mine I'd be thinking of just having the car flatbedded to its new destination. Flatbedding may be cheaper than ultimately sourcing yet another motor should these parts be damaged by a temporary assembly. 

But perhaps i don't have enough information about the situation. 

[Beemon]

John, the car may be sitting for 3 years or longer. I won't be making any money for a long time, and once I graduate, I'll need to get settled before I attempt on the car again. Best possible outcome is I get my settlement money, but I doubt I will, at least not before I'm thrown through the courts. I don't think my grandpa has 3 years left in him, it's just a really bad situation all around. It would be nice if the engine never failed the way it did, but oh well I guess,  seems to be my luck with everything on this car.

[60FlatTop]

14 hours ago, KAD36 said:

Hmmm - can't seem to paste in from the spreadsheet on post 63.  Whiskey Tango

 

An old guy, close to 70, would use a snipping tool to do that. Computer stuff, you know.

[Beemon]

Found out why #3 won't come out. I give up. Just naturally born to lose. The only thing worse now is if the car got seized by the DEA. At least it wouldn't be my problem then. 

[Beemon]

For the record, I know the engine should be done up right.... this is just the final blow, you know? I don't have the money to bore and hone any block because I spent my budget on finding junkyard pieces. I can't even use the #3 connecting rod because the person before me beat the hell out of it trying to get the piston out. Everyone else wants $400 for junk that I can't afford so I'm literally just stuck, like that piston. I'm just beat. This was supposed to be fun. Rat hole cash for two years going to school to invest in my dream car and it's ruined so bad none of the big parts are reusable.

 

When I get any money, I'll let you all know if custom rods are available. 

[Bloo]

Get that soaking in diesel, or some high-powered penetrating oil, as soon as possible. Its gonna take a few days at least.

 

I know you are thinking it might be the end. Yeah, I know it doesn't look good. It might not be nearly as bad as it looks, and regardless you'll want to not damage the piston.

 

It's time to go read on some single cylinder engine forums about unsticking a cyinder. In the mean time... DIesel, or Mopar rust penetrant, or Kroil, or liquid wrench or something. Soak the crap out of it and keep it wet. Patience is the key here. I would just fill the cylinder with diesel and keep it nearly full.

 

 

[KAD36]

1 hour ago, 60FlatTop said:

 

An old guy, close to 70, would use a snipping tool to do that. Computer stuff, you know.

 

Yeah - middle aged hardware guy, cresting 50, software utility challenged. I'm holding the photo next to the screen, why can't anyone see it?  Humpf.  Its just easier to brute force type.  

 

Beemon -  My spreadsheet was not updated and still had 401 cam/crank sprocket parts.  Try S260 crank and S259 cam at advance auto or auto zone.

 

I Mickey Moused my car for years as I had no money in college either to rebuild the engine properly.  I only fixed what was broken or would start a fire, not if it was worn, and it got me through 6 years and Potsdam NY winters.  Maybe I just got lucky, but 30 years and 60K miles later, I finally had the time and budget to rebuild it.

 

 

[NC-car-guy]

1 hour ago, Beemon said:

For the record, I know the engine should be done up right.... this is just the final blow, you know? I don't have the money to bore and hone any block because I spent my budget on finding junkyard pieces. I can't even use the #3 connecting rod because the person before me beat the hell out of it trying to get the piston out. Everyone else wants $400 for junk that I can't afford so I'm literally just stuck, like that piston. I'm just beat. This was supposed to be fun. Rat hole cash for two years going to school to invest in my dream car and it's ruined so bad none of the big parts are reusable.

 

When I get any money, I'll let you all know if custom rods are available. 

 

 

Dude,  I know this all sucks. Believe me I've nearly blown mine up a few times.  Take a day off and have a beer (or more).   Not sure why you're bent about the custom rods.....  Russ has rods from $20-$80    I have two rods from a late 55 here if you want em'  pistons in tact.  Just pay shipping.  (I can send them ground for savings).  They aren't perfect, but way better than that one in the photo.   Have you checked the bore on the nice block yet? Hopefully it will hold stock pistons for now?  worst case you end up with a little blow by and lower compression until you can afford to do a full rebuild.

http://nailheadbuick.com/enginerebuildparts

[60FlatTop]

The first logic modules I used were pneumatic, luckily everything had an electronic counterpart. And all my MVIO's were binary.

 

Back on topic, be glad you are in today's world. From 17 up I had a lot of expenses with the women, beer, country AND western bars, tickets, and lawyers. And I still had an old car and a modern one for work. I guess this would be the equivalent of driving something like a 2000 Park ave today.

 

I think that picture captures the "Waddaya mean 3 speeding tickets gets a suspension."

 

 

[Beemon]

The rods would have to be a balanced set with the pistons, that's why I've been looking for a complete set. If I'm going to throw something together, it has to be within a certain threshold otherwise I'm destroying more parts with harmonic imbalance. Vibration is a huge factor in stress fracturing. So I either want all 8 or none at all, because I can't afford to have someone balance 7 to 1.

 

I've gotten off the phone with the machinist and we may be able to drill and tap the connecting rods in my ruined block so they can hold the 55 pins. They're junk anyways so why not try? 

[60FlatTop]

3 minutes ago, Beemon said:

off the phone with the machinist

 

Keep calling him "the machinist". As soon as you start calling him "my machinist" things are on the slope. Just look at the posts containing "my mechanic".

[NC-car-guy]

52 minutes ago, Beemon said:

The rods would have to be a balanced set with the pistons, that's why I've been looking for a complete set. If I'm going to throw something together, it has to be within a certain threshold otherwise I'm destroying more parts with harmonic imbalance. Vibration is a huge factor in stress fracturing. So I either want all 8 or none at all, because I can't afford to have someone balance 7 to 1.

 

I've gotten off the phone with the machinist and we may be able to drill and tap the connecting rods in my ruined block so they can hold the 55 pins. They're junk anyways so why not try? 

so buy a complete set from Russ....  still under $400, brand new rods and pistons!

[Beemon]

I don't know... I feel like he would sell me a mix matched set, and not an actual matched set... I'm just going to see how things go from here. I'm really in no place to be buying more and more stuff.

[NC-car-guy]

5 hours ago, Beemon said:

The rods would have to be a balanced set with the pistons, that's why I've been looking for a complete set. If I'm going to throw something together, it has to be within a certain threshold otherwise I'm destroying more parts with harmonic imbalance. Vibration is a huge factor in stress fracturing. So I either want all 8 or none at all, because I can't afford to have someone balance 7 to 1.

 

Can anyone elaborate? 

 

A: you can buy just piston sets

B: some shop manuals describe replacing bad pistons and not replacing all.

C. Doesnt the harmonic balancer take care of this?

D: Can you not have rods ground to change weight? 

[JohnD1956]

5 hours ago, Beemon said:

I've gotten off the phone with the machinist and we may be able to drill and tap the connecting rods in my ruined block so they can hold the 55 pins. They're junk anyways so why not try? 

 

Those things have already ruined one block.  Could you really trust them again?

 

 

[Beemon]

If they were drilled and tapped, they would work like 54/55 rods, where there's a bolt that keeps the wrist pin. I would still like clarification on mix matching rods and pistons, though. I'm pretty sure there's a specific reason why #1 piston goes back into #1 cylinder, so on and so forth. 

[NTX5467]

Beemon, you ARE overthinking some of this!  In engine production at the factory, there are weight tolerances of pistons and rods.  They are not all balanced as an assembly per se, but if EACH is in a particular weight range, it's matched with a piston to make a total weight.  The crank counterweights are "known", too.  In the production realm of things, there is NO time to spin-balance the rotating assembly as there is in the machine shop realm of things.  It's all about total piston/rod weight and that weight being within a particular tolerance.

 

In engine balancing, as I found out, there are SEVERAL rpm ranges in which to "balance" the engine for.  It depends upon the operating range of the motor, from what I'm told.  Lower rpm (as a street engine) or high rpm (for a circle track engine or an engine that is normally operating in, say, the 5000rpm+ range), or something in-between.  For what you're trying to accomplish, an electronic scale would be good enough.

 

Yes, "balance" is important, but each engine has its own set of harmonics in operating.  It can affect ultimate durability in high-stress operational modes for extended period of time.  In a street motor, less important as long as there is not enough imbalance to feel.  Even balanced motors, when mounted solidly to the chassis, will "vibrate".  PLUS, in long-term race situations, using "side motor mounts", can break the side of the block from continued stress . . . one reason that many drag racing engines have "front mounts rather than side mounts.  Many older engines used the front-mount orientation as a matter of course.  Medium-duty Chevy truck engines used a front horseshoe mount on the front of the block and a center rubber mount where the horseshoe mounted to the frame crossmember.  On the race motors, it's called "motor plate" or "Elephant Ears" (in the case of Chrysler motors).

 

Remember, you're dealing with 60+ year old motor assemblies, which have been inactive for about 33% of that time (or more).  The acids in the motor oil will degrade the surfaces the motor oils were supposed to protect, over a period of time.  NOTHING is going to come apart and be as nice as you might like them to be, but with a little clean-up, they CAN be useable without machine work.  Think of any pits as "oil receptacles" so make the surrounding surfaces as smooth as you can so there are no sharp edges per se.  Piston and ring clearances can have a larger spec range than bearings, for example.  You can hand-lap the valve seats for general clean-up and general principles.  Remember that "the harder you're going to run an engine, the looser you want to set it up".   That includes piston skirt clearance as well as bearing clearances.  Some of this, especially bearing clearances, might compromise oil consumption, but being at the top end of the spec range doesn't mean it's not going to work decently well.

 

The OTHER thing is that IF the engine is going to sit three years, no real need to "make it the best" as you'll end up doing some of the same things over then.  

 

Pistons ONLY go in OR come out from the top side, period!  Cracking a ring land in the piston might not show up immediately, so using a ridge reamer to just remove any ridge is important.  Once metal is removed, it can't be put back.  IF the engine has never been rebuilt, the .030" overbore will probably go past where that removed metal used to be.

 

SO, once you get the pistons and rings cleaned up, weight them in combination with rods and rod bearings as a unit.  Do several to get a median value so you know your baseline.  In a production situation, the crank counterweights are not cut or shaved unless it's out of spec as it's easier to weight-match pistons and rods.

 

Respectively, what I've read about is a whole lot of high intensity "thrashing" and little progress thus far.  Things which might have been desired to work haven't, or at least not as it might have been desired.  This is not uncommon, typically.  In one respect, the original motor probably should not have been disassembled and the car immobilized as a result.  Of course, the issues which were found would not have been discovered if that had been done.  Perhaps it might have been good to seek to amass rebuildable engine cores for the future rebuild of the "future" motor, as a worst case scenario.  At least that way, the car would not be more of a liability as it now seems to be.  But things have happened as they have and now it's time to deal with them as best they can be.  In the allotted budgets of time and money.

 

Hopefully you've been paying attention to how things come apart, as an educational situation or "design" and "build" orientations.  Rather than just taking things apart and taking pictures to post.  You might not like some of the related comments, but you're in a "learning mode" on the bell curve so combine ALL of the comments for future reference.

 

Good luck!

NTX5467 

Edited June 16, 2017 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[Beemon]

Thank you Willis. As always, I take what everyone here has to say seriously, whether i want to hear it or not. That being said, I've focused my last ditch effort to finding a local running engine, or an engine that can be made to run easily. Chances are slim, but I am holding out for one month. There is an engine at the same junkyard that is a 53 engine, which is complete, but I feel like I'll be bled dry for it. There's also a 55 engine intact, but I feel pulling anything from a junkyard would just be bad business and will likely be a spare parts scenario, unless it got up and running right then and there.

 

It's the only lead I have right now. I'll see about bending the yard's owner's ear about setting up a battery and gravity feed gas tank and try to start it. Or, at least get it to turn over. I put an add on Craigslist, so I'll see if I can't catch something fishing. I don't have a picture of the 55 block, can't remember what's in it, but if I can get that one to turn over, do you suppose 55 rods and pins would work with 56 pistons? Or are they not interchangeable?

[NTX5467]

Head off to the local sporting goods chain store and get an outboard motor fuel tank.  About 3 gallons or thereabouts.  That can be your "gravity feed fuel supply".  A smaller inline bulb pump can be in the mix, too.  Simple and easy, it seems, and appropriate for getting an engine running when the fuel system is not what it might need to be (dirty, rusty, non-working fuel pump, etc.).  Not very expensive, either.  AND plastic.  Just need some rubber fuel line for hookup.  Take a can of spray carb cleaner to help get things fired-off, initially.

 

NTX5467

[NC-car-guy]

If you want cheaper,  wal-mart usually carries these.  They also carry the boat fuel line with the primer bulb, just cut the outboard fitting off one end.   I use a metal coffee can that has a nipple JB-welded to the bottom and a small hole at the top with a coat hanger through it.  I hang it from the hood latch and run my tube to the side of the carb.  Not great, but cheap and hasn't failed me yet.

[60FlatTop]

2 hours ago, wndsofchng06 said:

 I hang it from the hood latch and run my tube to the side of the carb.

 

I think there is a whole chapter on that kind of setup in The Anarchists Cookbook .

 

I had a one gallon plastic tank with a molded handle on the cowl of my '56 Willys after I put the new engine in. It spit back when I tried to start it and looking down through the floorboard openings  I saw the yellow light from the flames. I grabbed the tank and threw it as far from the garage as I could. Pre-cell phone days, I ran to the kitchen and got the portable phone, running back and dialing 911 twice but not hearing an answer. I got back to the garage and the yellow light was gone. I calmed down and got back to work.

About 20 minutes later a police car pulled in my driveway. My first thought was "Oh, no, what did my Son do." The cop said "We had a 911 called from this location." "Oh. Everything is OK now,"

 

Capture this thought. Read the 11 pages of your experience with this engine project. Then ask yourself "Am I really going to hang a container of gas from a hood latch?" If the answer is Yes, Read it again.

 

You are never too young, or old, to begin listening to the way the words "I thought" enter a conversation and what took place so they were used. Start listening for them today.

Bernie

[JohnD1956]

https://pullman.craigslist.org/cto/6150165868.html

 

If the top bumper corners are the same as the Supers, I'd be in the market for them. 

[Beemon]

4 hours ago, JohnD1956 said:

https://pullman.craigslist.org/cto/6150165868.html

 

If the top bumper corners are the same as the Supers, I'd be in the market for them. 

 

I'm not in the market to buy a whole car just to get mine running, I wouldn't have anywhere to put it, and then I'd have to turn around and sell the car for cheap to get rid of it, without an engine, 

 

In terms of getting another engine running, I would bring a known good carb and gasket, or intake manifold to get it to fire off... if it even turns over. I had a lead a while back about a 55 264 crate engine that had never been opened that  I think I'll try to follow first, though I doubt the journal bearings would be any good sitting for 60 years in a box. If I recall with the 264, the stroke is the same as a 322, but the bore is different, correct?

 

Just found this: https://spokane.craigslist.org/pts/6176441837.html Maybe I can split a deal with mom and pops as a grad gift... if it really is running, lol.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Beemon (see edit history)

[old-tank]

3 hours ago, Beemon said:

Just found this: https://spokane.craigslist.org/pts/6176441837.html Maybe I can split a deal with mom and pops as a grad gift... if it really is running, lol.

Your last best chance!  Show up with a carb and verify.  Bring $500 cash and haul it away.

[NC-car-guy]

What Willie said

[Beemon]

Sold for $550. Motor and trans. Guy is doing an LS swap.

[Bloo]

Sold? To you or someone else?

[Beemon]

Sold to me. We got it running, no funny noises no hesitation. The guy who owned it before though put some type of AFB carburetor on top of it with a spread bore adapter, its really goofy. I let him have that though.

[jackofalltrades70]

Now, get it put in and get your butt to college. ?

[dei]

Good for you!

I can relate to the frustration I read in your posts and know just how you feel when people say, something will turn up or things will work out. It's meant as a kind of support but....

 

Hoping the transplant will go smoothly for you! 

[NC-car-guy]

7 hours ago, Beemon said:

Sold for $550. Motor and trans. Guy is doing an LS swap.

Yuk on LS.  Yay for you getting a good deal.

[old-tank]

2 hours ago, wndsofchng06 said:

Yuk on LS.  Yay for you getting a good deal.

x2

Nothing wrong with rodders as long as they make the parts available to us.

[JohnD1956]

I know you're anxious to go, but maybe it would pay to carefully remove the core plugs on the block and flush it before installation.  A thermostat too.  Much easier doing that stuff outside the car.

[1956322]

I'd drop the pan...

[old-tank]

1 hour ago, JohnD1956 said:

I know you're anxious to go, but maybe it would pay to carefully remove the core plugs on the block and flush it before installation.  A thermostat too.  Much easier doing that stuff outside the car.

 

1 hour ago, 1956322 said:

I'd drop the pan...

All good advice, but that will just slow things down and inspection may reveal new worries --- just install it  and drive it like you stole it!