harmonic balancer rebuild

[petelempert]

My 63 started running rough, heard a slight chirp beneath the fan and the pulley looks to be wobbling slightly. I'm thinking its the harmonic balancer. If this was a SBC, I could find a new or rebuilt replacement pretty much anyplace. Never had one rebuilt on a nailhead. Anybody got a source for new, rebuilt or rebuilding services they'd recommend? Thanks in advance. PRL

 

[RivNut]

The damper dudes. 

[petelempert]

Do you mean Damper Doctor in Redding CA? Also, there is reference to the Crankshaft Balancer in section D 2-19 Trouble Diagnosis of the Chassis Service Manual but all it says is "replace it if you think it's bad". I couldn't find other reference to it under harmonic or  pulley and all crankshaft reference is for inside the motor.  Am I missing something in the Manual?  Getting ready to tear into this this and was wondering what Buick would do. PRL
 

[RivNut]

Damperdudes.net

[telriv]

This is just my opinion.

All these damper re-builders ( there are quite a few ) I DON'T like any of them. 1st. off they A:  knock out the balancing pins usually located on the outer diameter of the "Ring" & DO NOT re-install them. Every "Nail" balance r is diff. from the factory as they are ALL fine balanced BEFORE leaving the engine room. On MANY the inner back portion of the balance r on the weighted section has drill marks/holes in them for even further fine balancing. The flywheel/flexplapes are ALSO fine balanced at the factory. The reason some have drill marks/holes in them also. Very seldom are two the same from the factory. This goes for both the balancer & the flywheel/flexplates. You may not notice anything on a stock type engine that will seldom see above 4K RPM's,  BUT I guarantee you the unit is out of balance. BUT YOU WILL on something modified. They DON'T use the same material as stock & the bonding process is NOT the same. In my experience they ONLY seem to last 5-8 yrs. AT the very least tell them to NOT REMOVE the balancing pins or if they are removed to please re-install them in their original positions. You SHOULD check & note yours on the balancer you send out. By the time you mail the part back & forth & the rebuild process it will cost approx. $260.00-$280.00

I sell BRAND NEW SFI approved balance rs for $369.00 that should last ANY of ours lifetimes, BUT the downside is it needs to have the reciprocating assembly balanced during an engine overhaul. 

 

 

Tom T.

[EmTee]

12 hours ago, telriv said:

I sell BRAND NEW SFI approved balance rs for $369.00 that should last ANY of ours lifetimes, BUT the downside is it needs to have the reciprocating assembly balanced during an engine overhaul. 

 

 

Is it possible to buy a new balancer and have it 'un-balanced' to match the old one assuming that the old one is still basically intact?

[telriv]

Unfortunately NO. It has to be done during the overhaul/balancing of the reciprocating assembly. As much as I would like to sell these for the reason your asking I will NOT try to BS someone into buying something that will NOT work.

 

 

Tom T.

[petelempert]

The one on the motor was rebuilt and installed during the rebuild about 5 years ago. Telriv, your lifespan prediction is about right. I don't dispute what you are saying about the rebuild process. None will be as good as the configuration that left the factory, but I am trying to solve this problem without rebalancing the whole motor. That's why I'm seeking a supplier who will do the best possible job. Also, I don't think my Nailhead will see anything close to 4K, so the tolerances won't be as critical. Your note about the pins is an important point. I'll probably start pulling the thing off this week. Anybody with any hints, tips or watch outs, let me know. Thx PRL

 

[Seafoam65]

                   Pete, I think what is happening is that the balancer bolt backed off due to insufficient torque

when it was installed.   These bolts must be torqued to spec, which is a very high number. When that happens,

usually the balancer splits down the area that slides over the crank. Don't run the engine any more till you fix this.....

you can ruin the nose on the crankshaft very easily when this happens. I've seen this happen many times on Pontiac and Buick

V-8s due to failure to torque the bolt properly.

[petelempert]

I hear you Seafoam. I won't be driving it at all. The devil is in the details on this part and the repair. That's why I was hoping the chassis manual would have more details on this part, installation etc. Unless I'm missing something, there are no specs of any kind. PRL

[Seafoam65]

             Pete, I looked up the spec......it is 220 foot lbs.

[RivNut]

If it's necessary, you can sleeve it.  Russ Martin shows that part on his website.

 

Winston, what do you use to generate 220 lb. ft. of torque on the bolt?  

[steelman]

A large torque wrench and a cheater pipe. Worked on a 04 LS last Saturday. Crank pulley torques to 250#. Had to borrow a larger torque wrench from O'Reilly's and everything I had still wasn't enough. Had to add the cheater pipe to get the final torque.

[arnulfo de l.a.]

So the way i am understanding this is if your balancer goes bad the proper way to fix it will require a tear down of the whole motor? Man that sucks.  Other than a noisey lifter on start up my 65 gs  purrs, does not smoke, oil pressure light doesnt even flicker at idle on hot summer days in traffic, but it does use oil which i dont understand because of the lack of smoke or major oil leaks.motor has never been rebuilt. I drive like the old man that i am so she gets babied. Rarely has seen more than 3000 rpm or 70 mph in the 10 yrs i have owned her. I would trust this car to take me cross country and back. Any tell tale signs to look for of balancer going bad?

[petelempert]

Well, I hope not. I'm hoping to get the thing off, get it rebuilt and put it back on. Sounds like I'll need about 10 feet of pipe to get 220lb/ft.on it. My motor is relatively new. Unless I'm missing something, this is fixable without tearing in. The signs I've seen are a slight noise under the fan, slight wobble at the lower pulley and somewhat lumpy idle...almost like a miss but with more of a thrumming noise. All very slight. PRL

 

[Seafoam65]

                    Normally you would need to hold a backup on the flywheel teeth to get to 220.

This is what I  needed to do on my car when I did the timing chain and gears. I used a large torque wrench

while an assistant held a backup   on the flywheel with a flywheel turning wrench. You will find that the motor will

turn over without backup long before you get to 220. The crank normally isn't ruined when this happens but sometimes

that is the result (usually a wallowed out  keyway for the crank key.)

[Loren@65GS.com]

Just a FYI.  By adding a "cheater bar" you are not getting a correct torque.

The reading on the  torque wrench is based on the distance of the handle to the pivot point.

 

 Loren@65GS.com

[petelempert]

Was kidding about the 10 foot pipe. You are right about the torque being mis-represented by a cheater bar. That said, I'm not sure I've ever torqued anything to 220. Was planning on holding the flywheel by the teeth. Sounds like I might need to get inventive to get to 220. By the way, if you look up changing harmonic balancer on youtube, you'll see a bunch of videos of guys who put a cheater bar on the bolt, lodge the bar against the alternator bracket then key the motor a few quick reps to break the bolt loose. That seems insane to me. Hoping an impact driver will break mine loose. 

PRL

 

[60FlatTop]

I have some vague memory of the crankshaft bolt washer being a one time use item. Am I getting that mixed up with something else?

Bernie

[KongaMan]

The way I was always told to torque a balancer is "As tight as you can get it, then another half turn".

 

On the general question of rebuilding a balancer, it seems that if the hub and ring are reassembled in their original alignment and all pins, etc. remain in place, then simply replacing the rubber won't affect the balance very much at all.  Where would this go wrong?

 

There are folks out there who say they can match a new balancer to an old one.  It's kinda like balancing a tire, only you're not aiming for zero.  As I understand it, one way to do it is to bolt the old balancer to a known reciprocating assembly, take the measurements, bolt on the new balancer, then add/subtract weight until it matches the numbers from the old balancer.

 

And of course, if you're doing a rebuild, the whole thing needs to be rebalanced to match the new components, so you'd have it done as part of that process.

Edited December 5, 2016 by KongaMan (see edit history)

[EmTee]

On 12/4/2016 at 10:11 AM, EmTee said:

 

Is it possible to buy a new balancer and have it 'un-balanced' to match the old one assuming that the old one is still basically intact?

 

On 12/4/2016 at 2:59 PM, telriv said:

Unfortunately NO. It has to be done during the overhaul/balancing of the reciprocating assembly. As much as I would like to sell these for the reason your asking I will NOT try to BS someone into buying something that will NOT work.

 

 

Tom T.

See above...

[still looking]

On ‎12‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 10:43 AM, RivNut said:

If it's necessary, you can sleeve it.  Russ Martin shows that part on his website.

 

Winston, what do you use to generate 220 lb. ft. of torque on the bolt?  

This might help

http://www.engineersedge.com/manufacturing_spec/calculator/torque_adapter_extension.htm

[RivNut]

Why in the first calculation do you measure where you place your hand on the torque wrench, but in a later calculation, you use the middle of the extension instead of where you place your hand?

[Rivman]

12 hours ago, RivNut said:

Why in the first calculation do you measure where you place your hand on the torque wrench, but in a later calculation, you use the middle of the extension instead of where you place your hand?

The first calculation is going to give you the force you are exerting on/with the lever, length from center (L).

 

The other calculation is the length of the extension (E), that info is needed because the extension will "twist", and because of that you lose some of the torque. The longer the extension the more torque is needed on your setting, if you don't use an extension you would not need to adjust for that.

[RivNut]

I would think that you'd want to measure from where your hands were on the extension.  If you put a 3 foot extension on it but gra bed it where the two met, there would be more advantage.  The farther out you grab the extension ,  the  ore advantage you get.  It's not the length of the extension but where you grasp it. 

[EmTee]

9 hours ago, RivNut said:

...It's not the length of the extension but where you grasp it. 

 

Yeah, I've heard that one before...  

[RivNut]

Especially if your hand is wider than the extension is long. ?

[petelempert]

I'm taking stuff off the front of the motor now. Figure I'll try a 1/2 impact driver to get the main bolt off. Went ahead and got a new Tekton 300 lb torque wrench for re-assembly. It's quite an axe. Hoping to get a buddy to hold the flywheel by the teeth, then enlist another to help me wind the new wrench to 220 lbs without adding a pipe. We'll see. PRL

 

[RivNut]

Hope you weigh more than the 220 you're trying to put on the bolt. ?

[60FlatTop]

27 minutes ago, petelempert said:

I'm taking stuff off the front of the motor now. Figure I'll try a 1/2 impact driver to get the main bolt off. Went ahead and got a new Tekton 300 lb torque wrench for re-assembly. It's quite an axe. Hoping to get a buddy to hold the flywheel by the teeth, then enlist another to help me wind the new wrench to 220 lbs without adding a pipe. We'll see. PRL

 

#1 reason to do things yourself! Buy tools!

 

I remember back in the 1980's when I think I was the only one in town with a pitman arm puller. But I better stay away from that, political undertones, you know.

Bernie

[petelempert]

I'm about 185 lbs max, even after Thanksgiving dinner. That's why I plan on having a buddy help me double down on that thing. PRL

 

[HuntzNSam]

Torquing the bolt isn't as hard as it sounds. The big torque wrench has plenty of leverage.  I've never been fond of jamming things  into the flywheel teeth - stuff slips, blood flows.  We made/modified a tool to hold it from the front.  See our earlier post below.  Slick as walrus poop on an iceflow!

 

Edited December 13, 2016 by HuntzNSam
clarification (see edit history)

[petelempert]

I finally got around to this repair. Got all the front end stuff off the motor and found the balancer to be loose, literally could feel movement by hand. Put my breaker bar on the nut and could turn it with ease. I also invested in a pulley bar as some of you suggested and it is much easier than trying to hold the flywheel to keep the motor from spinning. The balancer was loose enough that I could wiggle it off without using a pulley tool to get it off. I worried that the front of the crank/key might be boogered up from all that play. Fortunately, the crank, key and balancer are in good shape. The bolt has some very slight thread wear/flattening. Luckily, I didn't run the motor with this problem for long. I think the problem was that the balancer was not torqued correctly (220LBS) and simply came loose. I plan on replacing the bolt and washer. I'll also douse the thing in Locktite. Anybody have a recommendation on a bolt/washer vendor? There are a few used options out there as well as Centerville Auto Repair in California. If anybody has a recommendation, let me know. Also, I noticed  some of the earlier Nailheads used a washer and a lock washer on that same bolt, but not in the 60's and on. Any idea what that's about? Thx PRL
 

[telriv]

I've NEVER seen a lock washer on ANY "Nail" I've taken apart. I'm sure a lock washer would break in this situation from the torque required.

 

 

Tom T.

[Mozzie]

With torque like that a spring / lock washer wont be doing anything. Once you torque the bolt to be under tension the washer is redundant.

[petelempert]

I found a replacement bolt at Centerville Auto Repair and Nailhead Buick. The guy I spoke with told me most of the Nailheads he rebuilds (multiple per year) have been previously rebuilt by somebody that didn't know the torque spec for this bolt. The incorrect torque setting obviously does create all sorts of problems if left unattended. In my case, I can only offer a theory: My motor was rebuilt years ago and ran great with no issues. I'd been running with the original inop factory AC compressor. Recently, I added a Vintage Air set up and have been using the AC. My theory is that the bolt wasn't torqued correctly and was sort of loafing along all along, but the recent load of the AC in use, it worked itself loose. Who knows? With a little luck, I'll get mine on right and solve this issue. Regarding the lock washer, I agree that that it's a little weird, but if you troll  HAMB and other online sources, you'll find reference to a lock washer particularly in older Nailheads. I'm not saying its right or as Buick intended, but it's going on out there. Maybe the same wrenches who are under torquing these bolts are also adding lock washers. PRL