Colors for 1957: Garnet red versus Bittersweet

[V.Milke]

For the restoration of my 1957 Caballero, I had thought about Garnett red over Dover white, but looking at pics on the net, I see Bittersweet over Dover white, which I may like more. Question here is: most internet sites mention Bittersweet as a 1956 color only, while just a few mention it was available also for 1957. The paint chips I got for 1957 do not show Bittersweet, but the ones for 1956 do, but there is just too many Bittersweet 1957 pics on the net as to think it may not have been offered.

 

Any hints? Was Bittersweet available on 1957 or not? 

 

Thanks!

victor

[Ttotired]

This site says it was a spring colour?

http://paintref.com/cgi-bin/paintdetail.cgi?paint=1957|Buick|Bittersweet

If the paint is not going to match the body tags, it really wont matter anyway, would it?

If you like it, use it

 

 

[old-tank]

That is a fantastic color and I usually don't like earth tones.  It was used on the first restored 57 that I saw, but it was paired with black.

[NTX5467]

If it was a "spring color", then it probably might not be in the color chip charts.  They, like the service literature, would be configured for the start of the model year.  Spring colors and/or equipment enhancements would have been announced with "a packet" of information sent to the dealer (to update their existing Order Guide with).  That's usually how things happened, back then.  Add a new color (for that model year) or an option pairing/group to help spiff-up the spring selling season.

 

NTX5467

[V.Milke]

On 10/8/2016 at 4:51 PM, Ttotired said:

This site says it was a spring colour?

http://paintref.com/cgi-bin/paintdetail.cgi?paint=1957|Buick|Bittersweet

If the paint is not going to match the body tags, it really wont matter anyway, would it?

If you like it, use it

 

 

 

Hi guys:

 

Thanks for your responses.

 

Interesting!, as a few other sites I saw list spring colors but not Bittersweet. For instance:

 

http://www.teambuick.com/reference/years/57/57paint.php

 

But I am glad other do list it! I may then take this option. Bittersweet and Dover white under the spear.

 

As for not matching the body tags, I am aware, and I don't care if the color I want to use is original... but I would rather choose from the origianlly available palette of colors.

 

Thanks for the help!

Victor

[1953mack]

See my post #18 in the following link:   http://forums.aaca.org/topic/243019-1957-buick-caballero-in-mexico/

 

 

Al Malachowski

BCA #8965

"500 Miles West of Flint"

[1957buickjim]

It is a 1956 spring color.  It has the same paint code T as the 1957 Buick color, dawn gray. If you paint your car bittersweet, it would not be a color available in 1957 model year. Recall that the 1957 model year would not start until late summer, with roll out to the public in September. Spring colors were provided to spark a final surge in the later end of the previous model year, which would be 1956. The 1956 models were on sale until the summer of 1957. 

[sean1997]

3 hours ago, 1957buickjim said:

It is a 1956 spring color.  It has the same paint code T as the 1957 Buick color, dawn gray. If you paint your car bittersweet, it would not be a color available in 1957 model year. Recall that the 1957 model year would not start until late summer, with roll out to the public in September. Spring colors were provided to spark a final surge in the later end of the previous model year, which would be 1956. The 1956 models were on sale until the summer of 1957. 

 

Spring colors were provided to spark a final surge in the later end of the current model year.  During the 1950's the model year ran from approximately September through August.  So the 1957 model year would be September 1956 through August 1957.  Sales of 1956 model year cars would have ended in September of 1956, not the summer of 1957.

 

[Paul Falabella]

Excellent website for vehicle color info.

 

http://www.autocolorlibrary.com/default.aspx

3 hours ago, sean1997 said:

 

Spring colors were provided to spark a final surge in the later end of the current model year.  During the 1950's the model year ran from approximately September through August.  So the 1957 model year would be September 1956 through August 1957.  Sales of 1956 model year cars would have ended in September of 1956, not the summer of 1957.

 

Correct as per color charts. Spring colors seem to be listed on the next years color chart. My 55 is Nile Green X over Cascade Black A. Nile Green was a Spring 55 color not listed on the 55 chart, but listed on the 56 chart. 

[sean1997]

3 hours ago, Paul Falabella said:

Spring colors seem to be listed on the next years color chart. My 55 is Nile Green X over Cascade Black A. Nile Green was a Spring 55 color not listed on the 55 chart, but listed on the 56 chart. 

 

Yes, I think that is part of the confusion.  The same is also true for the 1956 spring colors which show up on some 1957 color charts.

 

To clarify:  1955 Buick spring colors released in the spring of 1955 were applied to 1955 model year cars.  1956 Buick spring colors released in the spring of 1956 were applied to 1956 model year cars.  1957 Buick spring colors released in the spring of 1957 were applied to 1957 model year cars.  In other words, the calendar year in which the spring colors were released matches the model year to which the colors were applied.  Some websites show 1956 Buick spring colors for 1957, which is a mistake on their part because they have assumed that since it shows up on a manufacturers 1957 color chart it was applied to 1957 cars.  It was cheaper and easier for the paint manufacturers to put the 1955 spring colors on the 1956 chart and the 1956 spring colors on the 1957 chart rather than release a chart with only the spring colors and then have to release a new chart just a few months later when the paint codes changed for the new model year.

[NTX5467]

One point . . . we are talking about the particular model year's production rather than when the vehicles were actually sold.  Hence "left-over" 1956s could have been sold in calendar year 1957 (usually with some "factory assistance" for the dealer to further discount them for easier sale against the "new and improved" 1957s) . . .  or similar.

 

We ALSO need to remember, as Sean points out, that communication between the paint suppliers and their "in the field" re-sellers was only by "ground service" USPS or similar.  They probably wanted to minimize any sent-out updates to minimize possible confusion "in the field"?  Additionally, they had their notification lead times as the OEMs did (and still do, although possibly shorter now then back then).  The "spring special" paints and option package combinations/pricing seemed to appear in March, but with ordering lead times being what they could be, ordering for such would have begun (with announcements to the dealers) sometime in January . . . which would then mean that probably by Thanksgiving, the "spring specials" were being considered by the OEMs.

 

In some model years, the Spring Special paints could be a preview of a "next year's" color.  Or might have been in the Vehicle Order Guide lumped-in with (what I remember seeing in a later-1980s Chevrolet Order Guide as "Corporate Colors", which were colors for particular national sales account businesses' unique paint colors.  For the "pre-view" colors, it took a special volume of orders to get that color, so a local marketing group of dealers could get together to make that order amount as a collective order situation.  Each got the number of vehicles they wanted, the factory got it's minimum order number satisfied.  When a customer came in wanting some touch-up paint for their new "green color" Chevy pickup, I went through the normal procedures of getting the number from the data plate, but that number was NOT in any of the parts information for that model year . . . but I found that color in the "Corporate Color" list, on a separate page of color chips, in the Dealer Order Guide.  We contacted our local paint supplier and had some paint mixed and packaged for these customers.  The following model year, it was regular production and the previous codes were suddenly in the books "as normal".

 

In some cases, some vehicle situations can be HIGHLY model-year-specific.  Same color codes used for different colors of paint, in consecutive model years is one example.  The color chip paint websites can and are great resources "for the masses", but IF there might be "a difference" from one website to another, then somebody with a old paper chip chart book, factory service information, or a dealer order guide would probably be more accurate. 

 

Color changes are acceptable for BCA Judging within BCA orientations.  A problem might exist with a later owner, should that owner perceive the color change "be possible" within those BCA (or otherwise) judging orientations.  And, of course, if the color is accurate and un-altered from new, then it could have been a "factory issue" that caused things to not match.

 

I know of a late-1960s Plymouth Road Runner that is white.  It was white when the car was sold new.  Never repainted.  Yet the data plate has the paint code for another color (possibly red?).  MUCH discussion has been had about that car's authenticity (typically from people who knew the data plate codes!).  Perhaps the operative responsible for programming the paint system work sequence got it out of sequence?  Perhaps there was a sudden paint shortage of the needed color?  Perhaps there was a malfunction of the equipment?  In any event, the line must keep moving so "white" was available, matched the interior color, and was used.  Who's to know, other than those on the line on that day and time!  When it got to the dealership, if it looked "right", no real problem (maybe more if it might have been a special order vehicle, but with a little price massaging, it might have been sold).

 

In the mean time, all we have to go on is factory information for judging authenticity.

 

NTX5467

Edited August 13, 2016 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[V.Milke]

Thank you very much to all for your help and opinions. It seems, based on the 'hard' facts, the orginal literature, that Bittersweet was indeed only a 1956 color and not a 1957 one. 

 

I am not chasing trophies or anything, but just trying to do a car as close to what I could have ordered from the dealership back then, and if no Bittersweet was available, I wouldn't feel good going for it.. it has happened in the past and then I always regret not having chosen from the original palette. I guess I will have to stick to Garnet red with Dover white under the side moulding.

 

Thanks again!

Victor

[V.Milke]

To add to the confussion, look what I found among my files... a 1957 Buick paint chart that shows Bittersweet as available!

[HOMETOWN BUICK]

Bittersweet wasn't available for 1957.

Garnet red over Dover white looks great. You can have a preview here: http://www.hometownbuick.com/1957-buick/1957-buick-configurator/

[John_S_in_Penna]

On 8/11/2016 at 0:19 AM, NTX5467 said:

If it was a "spring color", then it probably might not be in the color chip charts.  They, like the service literature, would be configured for the start of the model year. 

 

There are actually TWO different color-chip

folders which Buick produced for the 1957 cars:

one has a gold cover, but no printing code on the

back to indicate the month;  the other has a blue-

and-gold cover, with a printing code that says 4-57 REV.

The latter was therefore probably a revision in April 1957.

 

Garnet red (code N) is in both of them.

Bittersweet is in neither.

 

Most vendors sell the color-chip pages that came out of

big manufacturers' multi-make, multi-year binders.

Much less often seen are the color-chip folders

actually produced by the manufacturer.

Edited August 13, 2016 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[John_S_in_Penna]

1 hour ago, v.milke said:

To add to the confussion, look what I found among my files... a 1957 Buick paint chart that shows Bittersweet as available!

 

Note the asterisk that connects to the footnote.  The footnote says

that color 56-T is a 1956 spring color.  And even their "56-T" indicates that.

It is NOT telling you that bittersweet was available on 1957 cars;  only that

bittersweet came out after Ditzler's original 1956 page was issued!

Buick's spring colors for 1957 cars probably appear on the 1958 Ditzler sheet.

Edited August 13, 2016 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[sean1997]

Here is a copy of the 4-57 revision that John is referring too.

[John_S_in_Penna]

On 8/11/2016 at 7:09 PM, v.milke said:

...I would rather choose from the origianlly available palette of colors.

 

Victor, that's a wise decision.  Anything else will detract from the value of your car.

 

Buick had many beautiful color combinations for 1957.

Have you seen the large 1957 full-line catalogue?

The Caballero there appears to be illustrated with

"garnet red" upper and "antique ivory" (pale yellow) lower.

Maybe that's why we tend to see a number of garnet red

1957 Caballeros--they're following the catalogue's suggestion.

 

My own Buick, a 1957 Century 4-door hardtop, is in the

attractive and unusual combination of "dawn grey"

(an interesting lavender-gray) and "antique ivory."

[sean1997]

..and some of the first release.

 

 

Edited August 19, 2016 by sean1997 (see edit history)

[V.Milke]

Thank you guys! It is more than clear now. 

[John_S_in_Penna]

And thanks, Sean, for showing those original

paint-chip folders!

[V.Milke]

Of course! Thanks particularly to Sean!

[smithbrother]

I'm not a 57 expert, with that said,,,,,if you goggle IMAGES OF 1957 BUICKS you will find what appears to be BITTERSWEET 1957 Buick cars, maybe.  Also goggle 1957 Buick factory color charts and find BITTERSWEET.

 

Just sayin,

 

Dale in Indy

 

 

 

 

Edited August 14, 2016 by smithbrother (see edit history)

[buick man]

….. HomeTown Buick has a really cool color configurator setup to select and view how your color combinations will look. Here's the link and have fun :

 

http://www.hometownbuick.com/1957-buick/1957-buick-configurator/

[smithbrother]

Cool link where you can PICK & CHOOSE the colors.

 

I recall in the 50's dad's dealership had books where you could lay over plastic see thru sheets to do the same thing.

 

As a arty kid, I enjoyed playing with it.  I'm sure all dealers had such a color selection book.

 

Dale in Indy

[John_S_in_Penna]

14 hours ago, buick man said:

….. HomeTown Buick has a really cool color configurator setup to select and view how your color combinations will look. Here's the link and have fun :

http://www.hometownbuick.com/1957-buick/1957-buick-configurator/

 

Thanks, Buick Man, for pointing out that website.

I never knew it existed, and it is a lot of fun.

 

One thing I must point out:

On the smaller models (Special and Century, which would

include the Caballero wagon), the color break is never at 

the roof alone.  The change in color occurs at the mid-body

"sweep-spear" molding.  The roof is always the same color

as the upper body.

 

That website lets one change the color of the roof alone

on the smaller models--interesting, but not authentic.

[NTX5467]

Quote

On the smaller models (Special and Century, which would 

include the Caballero wagon), the color break is never at  

the roof alone.  The change in color occurs at the mid-body 

"sweep-spear" molding.  The roof is always the same color 

as the upper body. 

 

 

I guess that was another little thing that the "senior" models could have that the "junior" models couldn't?  Privileges of "upscale" models?  Or perhaps the way the production paint shops were configured?

 

That IS a neat feature on the website!  Quite interesting and fun.  PLUS that the when the lower color was different from the middle color, the middle color was in the contour behind the front wheel rather than the lower color going all the way to the wheel.  I noticed it with a Dover White "upper", Seminole Red "middle", and Carlsbad Black "lower" . . . where that situation really stands out.  At least on the "4-holer" 2-dr Riviera I looked at yesterday.  The Super 4-dr sedan up Sunday didn't show that, with the same color combination.

 

Thanks again for that link!

 

NTX5467
 

[1953mack]

On ‎8‎/‎13‎/‎2016 at 0:32 PM, v.milke said:

.....I am not chasing trophies or anything, but just trying to do a car as close to what I could have ordered from the dealership back then, and if no Bittersweet was available, I wouldn't feel good going for it.. it has happened in the past and then I always regret not having chosen from the original palette. I guess I will have to stick to Garnet red with Dover white under the side moulding....

 

 

Painting your wagon Garnet Red over Dover White will not get you any "...closer to what you could have ordered..." than if you painted your wagon BITTER SWEET or APRICOT. Out of the 400,000+ Buicks built during the 1957 Buick production run, there had to be more than a few Special Orders written up for non-standard TRIM and PAINT color choices during that era. The BCA Judging Handbook briefly addresses Special Orders and if you do an advanced Search, you will notice how the Body by Fisher Number Plate was stamped when a non-standard TRIM, PAINT, or ACC was special ordered out for that production year. There was a Thread running a year or two ago addressing a 'weird looking number' that appeared on the Number Plate that nobody could figure out that I commented on.

 

Contrary to a previous post, I seriously doubt that painting your wagon "...anything else than an original paint-palette color will detract from the value of the car..." especially since your wagon was originally painted a (bland?) monotone Sylvan Grey XX.  IMO, it would more likely increase the value of your wagon and would definitely stand out from the crowd. Go for it.

 

Al Malachowski

BCA #8965

"500 Miles West of Flint"

[John_S_in_Penna]

1 hour ago, 1953mack said:

... there had to be more than a few Special Orders written up for non-standard TRIM and PAINT color choices during that era. The BCA Judging Handbook briefly addresses Special Orders...

 

Yes, the "special customer orders", as indicated on

the body-and-trim tag, are interesting.  I remember a forum

discussion a year ago, where several custom tags were pictured

from Buicks painted either in an earlier-year color or a color

specially requested by the buyer.  I think the forum members'

concensus was that a Buick Club entry would have a deduction made for

a non-model-year paint unless it really had a SCO from the factory.

AACA might handle it more leniently, however.

 

Maybe someone else, with experience in Buick Club judging, can tell us more.

 

Boy, I wish you could do that for a current GM car.  I'm tired of gray!

[old-tank]

I doubt the BCA judges would notice.  And if they did those next year probably would not.

A few year ago a 55 Century convertible (painted black and copper) was denied a Senior because of non-authentic color by a judging team that knew the cars.  I noticed at Allentown that same car was wearing Senior credentials.  Before that a 55 Roadmaster convertible attained a Senior with cloth inserts in the seats (no mid 50's convertibles ever had cloth originally).

No judging system is perfect.

[V.Milke]

On 10/8/2016 at 4:51 PM, Ttotired said:

 

 

 

The link for Allentown Buick is great! Not only the coloring part, but the information it contains. Thanks for posting it!

 

I confirmed there that out of six interior color combos for the Caballero, only one used cloth and cordaveen, trim #685, rust colored cloth with beige cordaveen, which is what I intend to use... in fact, I will have to confess that is why I am choosing an orange/red exterior color, as I really don't like vynil, so that fact automatically eliminated the blues, greens, etc... 

 

 

[buick man]

…. Gee out of those 400,000 plus Buicks built in 1957, guess my Coupe 76A  doesn't know if it should feel kinda unique or as an outcast, what with just only some 2,800 built !

 

 

Edited August 16, 2016 by buick man (see edit history)

[SpecialEducation]

I understand your envy of the 1956 color palate; bittersweet is a great color.

 

The fact that the '56 my grandpa bought new in the spring of '56 happened to be bittersweet has no bearing on my opinion.