1958 Fuel Injected original Bonneville!

[Guest Roj]

Guys, need a little help, a friend has a 1958 Bonneville which is all original, runs and drives.  It is 1 of 107 built and is a 2 door.  It's an ALL original car with dust as an extra.  Anyone have a clue what it's worth.

[Guest]

Only you can tell us what condition it is in ( # 1-6 ) However if this car is still a fuel injected car you can add a lot more to it. Try NADA to get a feel for it.

[Guest Roj]

I would say it's a 2/3, it's not restored, runs well, mechanically in good shape, interior is all original and nice, the outside is not ever been hit and doesn't have any rust on the outside, and minimal surface rust in the trunk area. 

 

NADA is tough, I have never seen one sell for that matter, never seen one up close that was fuel injected.

 

It's a car, with buffing, the dull paint wouldn't need repainted, touched up in a couple places, sure, but would not ever be a candidate to restore, it's to nice.

 

It's a nice driving car.

[George Smolinski]

NADA is from low retail 20K to high retail 52K w/fuel injection.

The body looks pretty nice from the photos, however it looks like it sat in that open building for quite a while. How many rodent nests or rodents call it home? I assume it's also in Florida from the plates (a nice humid subtropical climate & if near the ocean, lots of salt. The floors & trunk may be anything from nice & solid to Swiss cheese to non existent.

When was it last driven - runs & drives is way different than roadworthy. Factory documentation would be very helpful towards value & desirability.

Got photos under the hood, interior, & trunk?

More info & photos = more precise idea of value.

Edited December 7, 2015 by George Smolinski (see edit history)

[Guest Roj]

I'll get more photo's, and I agree, the more photo's the better idea someone can give me.  Car is in Mississippi and been there 40 years, 2 owner car and has a lot of original paperwork.

[46 woodie]

Rare to say the least. Of course condition will be the major factor but I see FI units for '58 to '62 Corvettes at Hershey for $10 to $12K, they aren't cheep. Are you trying to purchase the car?

[Guest Roj]

I could, but it just needs a good home, the guy is sick and is selling off his cars.  Honestly I don't know the value, I have a 30 Buick 64C and 31 Buick Phaeton and several early vettes, but Bonneville with fuel injection I have not seen and know that an original car like this needs a good home.  That's why I brought it up, I can't buy them all.

[John348]

About 25 years ago a friend of mine gave me a 57 Pontiac Fuel Injection unit, what I learned is there are very few out there, many were converted to carbs retaining the ignition distributor which had the drive unit for the FI fuel distributor. There is also some sort of tin shielding that surrounded the unit which was next to impossible to find, needless to say any specific fuel injection service parts will be next to impossible to find at any price.

Sort like hens teeth, while rare, finding the hen looking for teeth is even rarer

Edited December 7, 2015 by John348 (see edit history)

[Guest]

About 25 years ago a friend of mine gave me a 57 Pontiac Fuel Injection unit, what I learned is there are very few out there, many were converted to carbs retaining the ignition distributor which had the drive unit for the FI fuel distributor. There is also some sort of tin shielding that surrounded the unit which was next to impossible to find, needless to say any specific fuel injection service parts will be next to impossible to find at any price.

Sort like hens teeth, while rare, finding the hen looking for teeth is even rarer

Like John says parts are rare and 58 Pontiac FI parts are different from 57, just to start with the 57's have stamped steel welded intake manifolds and the 58's are cast aluminum manifolds. Back in 1959 I can remember going over to a friend of my dads who helped us with our 59 Pontiac race car, and this guy had stacks of Pontiac FI units that were taken off and replaced by Tri-Power units. They are like gold now, back in the day people trashed them just like 1959 Bendix FI's for 413 Chryslers.

[GARY F]

in smoke signals magazine there are guys that might help you. i love the car and keep us updated & pics

[auburnseeker]

I would keep it as original as possible.  Especially since it's fuel injected.  Could be the last unmolested one left.

 Those asking prices on FI units for Vettes are a bit High unless they are complete with distributor and have been rebuilt.  I have seen several over on ebay for around 5,000.  

Really not comparable with the Pontiac FI unit as it's much rarer though.  

I've seen a couple of fully restored convertibles in Hemmings over the last year or so and I think they were in the 100-120G range but they were also fully restored according to the sellers. 

It would seem you should be able to add atleast 50 percent if not 100 percent to the value of a similar regular 4 BBL carb car.  But you will need to do some serious marketing to find the right guy for a car like this ,  where there are 10 - 20 ads in every hemmings looking to buy vettes. 

Let us know when it's finally ready to be marketed.  I wouldn't mind a stab at it but I'm probably low on cash and out of room for the foreseeable near future.   

[Guest]

To be honest I was shocked at NADA value guides even FI and A/C cars;

 

Values

Print

 

 

  Original
MSRP Low
Retail Average
Retail High
Retail Base Price $3,481 $15,500 $24,600 $42,000 Options: (change) Air Conditioning   5% 5% 5% Fuel Injection   25% 25% 25% Strato-flight Hydra Transmission   5% 5% 5% TOTAL PRICE: $3,481 $20,925 $33,210 $56,700

[John348]

 I wouldn't mind a stab at it but I'm probably low on cash and out of room for the foreseeable near future.   

 

I would love to take a stab at it myself, I got room and I am not that low on cash......yet

[joe_padavano]

 

To be honest I was shocked at NADA value guides even FI and A/C cars;

 

Values

Print

 

 

  Original

MSRP Low

Retail Average

Retail High

Retail Base Price $3,481 $15,500 $24,600 $42,000 Options: (change) Air Conditioning   5% 5% 5% Fuel Injection   25% 25% 25% Strato-flight Hydra Transmission   5% 5% 5% TOTAL PRICE: $3,481 $20,925 $33,210 $56,700

 

 

The fact that they list a value doesn't mean that it's anywhere close to accurate.  The NADA guide is derived from live auction results. How many of these cars have been sold at auction over the last five years?  I suspect none.  Kinda hard to derive a statistically valid price model from that small a sample size.  I suspect that NADA simply extrapolates prices based on what they see on more common cars like Corvettes and Camaros.  That doesn't make the numbers correct.  I remain amazed that anyone with any concept of statistics puts any value in these guides at all for uncommon cars like this.

 

To the OP, this is obviously an extremely rare car.  That's a two-edged sword, unfortunately, as a proper restoration will be expensive and there are few people who really want to pay what this car is worth.  As for it being a #2-3 car, that's unlikely.  #2 is essentially showroom condition.  #1 is far better than any car ever left the factory.  I'd say #3 at best, more likely #4.

 

https://www.hagerty.com/articles-videos/Articles/2004/10/17/Car-Conditions-What-The-Numbers-Mean

[Restorer32]

Statistics...arghhhhh...few folks actually understand what "margin of error" actually means. Drives me crazy watching the political poles where 2 candidates are within the moe yet the talking heads think the one with the highest score is "winning". Sorry for the off topic rant but I feel better now.

[Guest Roj]

The fact that they list a value doesn't mean that it's anywhere close to accurate.  The NADA guide is derived from live auction results. How many of these cars have been sold at auction over the last five years?  I suspect none.  Kinda hard to derive a statistically valid price model from that small a sample size.  I suspect that NADA simply extrapolates prices based on what they see on more common cars like Corvettes and Camaros.  That doesn't make the numbers correct.  I remain amazed that anyone with any concept of statistics puts any value in these guides at all for uncommon cars like this.

 

To the OP, this is obviously an extremely rare car.  That's a two-edged sword, unfortunately, as a proper restoration will be expensive and there are few people who really want to pay what this car is worth.  As for it being a #2-3 car, that's unlikely.  #2 is essentially showroom condition.  #1 is far better than any car ever left the factory.  I'd say #3 at best, more likely #4.

 

https://www.hagerty.com/articles-videos/Articles/2004/10/17/Car-Conditions-What-The-Numbers-Mean

 

I guess I should qualify what I'm saying for a 2/3.  The paint will buff fairly easily because one it is the original laquer and the interior is still untouched and with a proper detail and cleaning it would be a proper original interior.  It's a hard car to grade because it's all original including the fuel injection.  It's not a car to be restored, WAY TO NICE and someone would just be pouring money into something that shouldn't be restored and kept original.  A 4 car I look as it has to be restored and may run, but you really wouldn't want to drive it very far.  This is not the case with this car, but again I'm just trying to help find a value and a good home for it. 

 

Rare yes, valuable, to a particular buyer, yes,

[padgett]

Be aware that while the FI used some Chev parts, it was a completely different unit with a "turkey roaster" air box that carried the air cleaner. Also 57 (stamped steel) and 58 (cast aluminum) manifolds were different so any 58 Pont FI pieces are very hard to come by, more so since the carbed engine was faster and the FI was a bear for anyone who didn't know them particularly the early CSV (Cranking Signal Valve) tended to leak (fixed mine with at TCS switch).

 

Since a Rochester FI was my secret weapon in B/P I had a lot of contacts at Rochester and Detroit Diesel Indy. Sill have some speaker stands.

 

ps reminds me of one I knew thutty yar ago near Dallas.

[60FlatTop]

Kind of makes you wonder if they could extrapolate a list of the rarity of buyers. They would be over 50, interested in cars, and have the discretionary money to buy a car. But they would have to be under 70 because all those guys are selling their cars, either now, or soon will be due to financial or health reasons. An interesting set of metrics.

 

On the Pontiac thing, 51 years ago I had a 1957 Pontiac 4 door sedan with 3 speed standard shift and fuel injection. It had had the hell run out of it by a local stock car driver and mechanic at our town's Easton Pontiac. It was turquoise and white, kind of innocent looking. I was listening to the "racers" whom hung around the local gas stations and coffee shops at the time so I put in a new clutch and 12 spring pressure plate. Damned near took two feet to push the clutch in.

 

Never had many Pontiacs and after that I kind of quit listening to the old boys around the cracker barrel.

Bernie

[Guest]

The fact that they list a value doesn't mean that it's anywhere close to accurate.  The NADA guide is derived from live auction results. How many of these cars have been sold at auction over the last five years?  I suspect none.  Kinda hard to derive a statistically valid price model from that small a sample size.  I suspect that NADA simply extrapolates prices based on what they see on more common cars like Corvettes and Camaros.  That doesn't make the numbers correct.  I remain amazed that anyone with any concept of statistics puts any value in these guides at all for uncommon cars like this.

 

To the OP, this is obviously an extremely rare car.  That's a two-edged sword, unfortunately, as a proper restoration will be expensive and there are few people who really want to pay what this car is worth.  As for it being a #2-3 car, that's unlikely.  #2 is essentially showroom condition.  #1 is far better than any car ever left the factory.  I'd say #3 at best, more likely #4.

 

https://www.hagerty.com/articles-videos/Articles/2004/10/17/Car-Conditions-What-The-Numbers-Mean

Only gave those as a reference guide because there are no other references. Can't rely on Hemmings as they are only asking prices. We don't know what the sales prices are. There is a 58 Bonneville restored on there now for $94900 in fact the same color;

http://assets.hemmings.com/uimage/50231939-770-0.jpg?rev=1

[padgett]

To be in a 57 sedan it woud have to have been a transplant, 57 was Bonne vert only, 58 it became more commonly available. Do you remember if the plenium was stamped metal (painted black) or cast aluminum ? 

 

ps that is why my Judge now has a Centerforce clutch.

[joe_padavano]

A 4 car I look as it has to be restored and may run, but you really wouldn't want to drive it very far. 

 

I guess you didn't look at the link I posted:

 

 

NO. 4: GOOD

A drivable vehicle needing no or only minor work to be functional; also, a deteriorated restoration or a very poor amateur restoration. All components may need restoration to be “excellent,” but the car is mostly usable “as is.”

 

 

Most people I talk to are overly optimistic on both condition and value of their vehicles, just like children in Lake Wobegon... 

 

As I noted, if you drove the car out of the showroom when new, that would be a no. 2 car.  Unless the car has been in a hermetically sealed, dry nitrogen-filled container for the last 55 years, it is at best a no. 3 and more likely a high 4.  I'm not trying to denigrate the car, just trying to be realistic.  It's a very rare, very cool car.  I agree, that it is likely worth a lot to the right buyer.  Finding that buyer is a different issue, however.

[countrytravler]

Be aware that while the FI used some Chev parts, it was a completely different unit with a "turkey roaster" air box that carried the air cleaner. Also 57 (stamped steel) and 58 (cast aluminum) manifolds were different so any 58 Pont FI pieces are very hard to come by, more so since the carbed engine was faster and the FI was a bear for anyone who didn't know them particularly the early CSV (Cranking Signal Valve) tended to leak (fixed mine with at TCS switch).

 

Since a Rochester FI was my secret weapon in B/P I had a lot of contacts at Rochester and Detroit Diesel Indy. Sill have some speaker stands.

 

ps reminds me of one I knew thutty yar ago near Dallas.

Have a friend that worked at the GM tech center in Warren MI in the hipo dept. He was one of the big shots that worked on these injection units Knows how to make them run. He has a 62 Vett that he still has that he bought brand new. Its a fuel car that would beat almost any carb 327 in its time. Ran 11.20s in 65 with the fuel unit.

Edited December 8, 2015 by countrytravler (see edit history)

[countrytravler]

On Epay

 

PONTIAC 1958 FUEL INJECTED ENGINE COMPLETE 1958 PONTIAC 370 V8 FUEL INJECTED

8500.00

 

[padgett]

Where is the turkey roaster ?

 

 

ps I was just a GMI student and had friends in low places but was running a 63 FI (large plenium) that flowed over 900 cfm. Every time I got protested they just unbolted the FI and measured the heads and block. Only thing they ever found was waaay too much cam...

 

pps Dr. Dick Tompson's FI was one of the "interesting" ones. I learned a lot from that engine. Only problem was the venturis (62 and later could be hogged out) were terrible castings, full of voids. Remember having to mill out several before finding one that had a good casting.

[carbking]

As far as value is concerned, one used to be able to acquire auction results from the various auction companies. Take these with a pound of salt, as some cars which are listed as sold actually may have been "trades" among friends to make the price look better, and then sell at a later date at a higher price.

 

I didn't read where you mentioned this, but since the car still has the original fuel injection system my guess would be the car is VERY low mileage!

 

It has been a long time since a few Pontiac club members asked us to reproduce the necessary service parts to rebuild the Pontiac fi units. From what I remember, maybe 50 percent of the 1957 service parts were the same as Chevrolet; but less than 25 percent of the 1958 parts interchanged. We never did make up the kits. Too expensive.

 

Too bad the 1956 dual-quad package was one year only.

 

Jon.

[Guest]

As far as value is concerned, one used to be able to acquire auction results from the various auction companies. Take these with a pound of salt, as some cars which are listed as sold actually may have been "trades" among friends to make the price look better, and then sell at a later date at a higher price.

 

I didn't read where you mentioned this, but since the car still has the original fuel injection system my guess would be the car is VERY low mileage!

 

It has been a long time since a few Pontiac club members asked us to reproduce the necessary service parts to rebuild the Pontiac fi units. From what I remember, maybe 50 percent of the 1957 service parts were the same as Chevrolet; but less than 25 percent of the 1958 parts interchanged. We never did make up the kits. Too expensive.

 

Too bad the 1956 dual-quad package was one year only.

 

Jon.

Wonder how this one with 2X4's got into a 62 Catalina;

[carbking]

The 1956 Pontiac dual-quad option was for use on production cars.

 

Rejected in favor of tri-power (although Carter provided prototype dual-quads to Pontiac for testing) in 1957; and of course the troublesome fi debuted in 1957.

 

The Super Duty (race only) Catalina's did have the dual-quad option in 1962 and 1963, but they fit only the Super Duty heads, not production heads.

 

Jon.

[TG57Roadmaster]

This green restored '58 Bonne sold at RM Amelia last March for $82,500.

 

http://www.rmsothebys.com/am15/amelia-island/lots/1958-pontiac-bonneville-sport-coupe/1071794

 

TG

[padgett]

And dual quads were for drag use, roundy round cars had a single four (or three) barrel.

 

ps weren't the 56 dual quads WCFB lo-flos ? Tripower followed, 57 all small, then big end carbs, then all big in '66. A-bodies were held back by the three little pots (air cleaners) but big cars got a single ginormous air cleaner. Maybe a '66 tripower would be better on the Judge than dual AFBs (Carter, not Eidlebrock). Every time I clean out the garage its Christmas. Just found a Corsa dash I forgot I had.

 

pps Jon: Something is banging at my synaps about dual quad SD Pontiacs having three carbs ?

[Guest]

The 1956 Pontiac dual-quad option was for use on production cars.

 

Rejected in favor of tri-power (although Carter provided prototype dual-quads to Pontiac for testing) in 1957; and of course the troublesome fi debuted in 1957.

 

The Super Duty (race only) Catalina's did have the dual-quad option in 1962 and 1963, but they fit only the Super Duty heads, not production heads.

 

Jon.

SD 421's were production cars ( Catalina and Grand Prix)  that anyone could have ordered if they knew where to look or had a dealer who knew where to look. The best way was like we did- through the zone office. I have a friend who ordered, owned and raced one and occasionally drove on the street fully licensed of course. As far as the 63 980 head goes, it had to be production to be sanctioned for NHRA and IHRA and NASCAR.  

 

The  SD 389 & 421 head on 61-62 cars was the # 544127 and all Pontiac blocks, intakes and exhaust manifold will interchange. The second 1963  SD head # 9771980 will fit all 63 Pontiac blocks and intakes, the only thing it will not fit is the stock heads exhaust manifolds as the ports are larger and the end ports bolt holes and the port are slightly oval. That only matters to people who want to use a stock inefficient iron manifold. Most people use a set of headers instead of the heavy NASCA iron headers.

Edited December 9, 2015 by helfen (see edit history)

[John348]

Well I dug this out of my garage for a few photo's this afternoon, this is the one I was given 25 years ago

[Guest]

Well I dug this out of my garage for a few photo's this afternoon, this is the one I was given 25 years ago

I didn't know you were a Pontiac guy.

[auburnseeker]

Kind of makes you wonder if they could extrapolate a list of the rarity of buyers. They would be over 50, interested in cars, and have the discretionary money to buy a car. But they would have to be under 70 because all those guys are selling their cars, either now, or soon will be due to financial or health reasons. An interesting set of metrics.

 

On the Pontiac thing, 51 years ago I had a 1957 Pontiac 4 door sedan with 3 speed standard shift and fuel injection. It had had the hell run out of it by a local stock car driver and mechanic at our town's Easton Pontiac. It was turquoise and white, kind of innocent looking. I was listening to the "racers" whom hung around the local gas stations and coffee shops at the time so I put in a new clutch and 12 spring pressure plate. Damned near took two feet to push the clutch in.

 

Never had many Pontiacs and after that I kind of quit listening to the old boys around the cracker barrel.

Bernie

I wouldn't necessarily agree that the buyer would fall in that range.  I'm 41 and would be interested.  I'm probably the exception but there are a few more out their like me that like the oddity mixed with great styling.  More than a few like all kinds of cars and various cars peak our interest.  

MY cars include a 49 chevy pickup, 36 cord convertible, a pair of vintage 50's style 32 Fords, a 56 olds hardtop, sold off a 48 Plymouth convertible and stock 36 Chrysler convertible this past year.  I even appreciate the '09 Porsche Boxter a friend is having me help him sell and now sits in my shop.  I like everything and will spend for what catches my eye when I can't or will sell off some of what I have to maneuver myself into position for the next right purchase.  I think there are more than a few like me out their.  This is one of those oddities that's just interesting enough to give it a second thought.  Especially since it is suppose to be all original.  I like survivors even when they are a little on the tired side. 

[John348]

I didn't know you were a Pontiac guy.

 

I am really not always was a Chevy and Buick guy, but I am partial to all of the 58-62 GM styles. A friend of mine I worked with gave me the 57 unit about 25 years ago. He said it was on his neighbors 57 Bonneville which his neighbor gave to him because as could guess nobody could fix it. He pulled the FI off and picked up a 4bbl intake in the junkyard and drove the car for few years after that

[padgett]

Yup, 57 stamped steel unit. Injectors went in the openings on the lower legs and pump was driven from a takeoff on the distributer. Whole thing was wrapped airtight in the turkey roaster and the air filter was mounted on that.

 

Most got carbs because of that exact reason: nobody knew how to fix them despite a ton of information available from GM.

 

Now for real trivia: In 1958 what other US manufacturer had "Fuel Injection" on some cars (talk about rare...) & what made it closer to today's FI ??

[Guest Roj]

As far as value is concerned, one used to be able to acquire auction results from the various auction companies. Take these with a pound of salt, as some cars which are listed as sold actually may have been "trades" among friends to make the price look better, and then sell at a later date at a higher price.

 

I didn't read where you mentioned this, but since the car still has the original fuel injection system my guess would be the car is VERY low mileage!

 

It has been a long time since a few Pontiac club members asked us to reproduce the necessary service parts to rebuild the Pontiac fi units. From what I remember, maybe 50 percent of the 1957 service parts were the same as Chevrolet; but less than 25 percent of the 1958 parts interchanged. We never did make up the kits. Too expensive.

 

Too bad the 1956 dual-quad package was one year only.

 

Jon.

It has 38,943 as far as miles, so yes I would say low, but others would say high.

[Guest Roj]

This green restored '58 Bonne sold at RM Amelia last March for $82,500.

 

http://www.rmsothebys.com/am15/amelia-island/lots/1958-pontiac-bonneville-sport-coupe/1071794

 

TG

This helps a lot, this car would need to stay original but cleaned up and preserved.  Big car, a lot of money, but very nice looking car.

[John348]

This green restored '58 Bonne sold at RM Amelia last March for $82,500.

 

http://www.rmsothebys.com/am15/amelia-island/lots/1958-pontiac-bonneville-sport-coupe/1071794

 

TG

 

That is a tri-power car although not common it is not as unique as the fuel injected version

[Guest]

Yup, 57 stamped steel unit. Injectors went in the openings on the lower legs and pump was driven from a takeoff on the distributer. Whole thing was wrapped airtight in the turkey roaster and the air filter was mounted on that.

 

Most got carbs because of that exact reason: nobody knew how to fix them despite a ton of information available from GM.

 

Now for real trivia: In 1958 what other US manufacturer had "Fuel Injection" on some cars (talk about rare...) & what made it closer to today's FI ??

Chrysler Corp with Bendix Corp.

[Guest]

Guys, need a little help, a friend has a 1958 Bonneville which is all original, runs and drives.  It is 1 of 107 built and is a 2 door.  It's an ALL original car with dust as an extra.  Anyone have a clue what it's worth.IMG_2627.jpegIMG_6126.jpegIMG_0111.jpeg

Just to refresh, this cars runs and drives fine and still has the FI unit on it? The figure 1 of 107 mean 1 of 107 Bonnevilles built with FI? I know Pontiac made more than 107 units, and in 58 it was a option on any Pontiac. 

Does your friend plan on selling the car?

 

FYI

All 1957 Bonneville's were convertibles  and all were fuel injected . There were 630  Bonneville's made. No FI for the other series.

My sources say for 1958 approximately 400 units were produced for Bonneville. My sources do not give a number for the rest of the Pontiac series which FI was also a option. 

Edited December 9, 2015 by helfen (see edit history)