What's all the hubub about the VW TDI ?

[Guest Skyking]

It's any wonder how any car company survives today!  Too many rules, too many regulations!

[NTX5467]

In many respects, those who paid extra for the VW TDI models really got what they wanted.  The diesels are still way cleaner than any prior diesel anyway, so they can still claim to "hug and chalk"  trees all they might desire.  The real number of TDIs on the road is a very small part of the total vehicular mix, anyway, so no significant environmental harm has resulted . . . except when some might run numbers on invisible gasses in the exhaust outputs of those vehicles.  Still, getting about 50mpg highway is fuel conserving compared to many other vehicles, which would do well to get close to 1/2 that mpg on the highway, or even an honest 30mpg.  So, if you consider how long it might take for any litigation to be finalized and happen, look how many gallons of crude oil those drivers would have saved to be used by HD diesel pickups!  Or the money they would have saved.  Personally, I don't see that any customers have really been harmed in that whole situation . . . ONLY their minds of allegedly being "had", which got them better operating vehicles with better fuel economy in the mix.  Such a deal!!! 

 

In many states, diesel vehicles (of which light-duty trucks are the main diesel population) only get SAFETY inspections, not emissions inspections as gas-engine vehicles do.  Hence, not a lot of worries about a "failed emissions test".

 

Most of the diesel pickups that had the "belching" problem have been cleaned-up in later model years when the diesel particulate filter came to be, plus the Diesel Exhaust Fluid as an additional item in the diesel emissions mix.  Now, it they smoke at all, it's just for a few seconds during initial acceleration . . . which is an indication that they've been modified.  TX and other states have "smoking truck hotlines", but the truck must emit large amounts of smoke for longer than 10 continuous seconds to qualify for "the prize".

 

In the world of treadmill vehicle emissions testing, there are many "programmed factors" in the software that runs the chassis dyno.  Plus, the tires flex more on the roller than when running on flat pavement.  Vehicle weight factors, too.  Just as with the total emissions load "environmental model" for how much emissions are added to the environment situation, a small change in the model's calculations could make a significant difference in the test results.  Perhaps it's time to do away with the treadmill test for OEM emissions/mpg certification?  Heck, no reason it couldn't be done virtually, all things considered!   Perhaps it's time for the EPA to revise it's whole testing procedures to better reflect what's really coming out of the exhaust pipes?  AND that's not the "simple, easy answer" that anybody might desire to hear!

 

It MUST also be remembered that EPA only does what it has funding to do -- period.  Just as the USDA can only inspect what it has inspectors to inspect and how often between inspections of the same facility.

 

As a related issue, back when the first orientations were to raise the national speed limit from 55mph, some legislators holler about "increased air pollution" (as the engines would be running faster and such, at the increased road speeds).  CAR AND DRIVER had an editor who contacted an associate in the Chrysler vehicle emissions lab to see if this legislator was correct or not.  Luckily, they had a long-term test vehicle they could run such a check on.  The particular Dodge Neon had about 80K on it at the time.  At 55ph, it emitted .001 gm/mile of NOx at 55mph.  At 70mph, it emitted .003 gm/mile of NOx.  Yep, a 300% increase for sure!  But as the starting number was basically "nothing", 3 times "nothing" is not much more of anything!  Look at the real numbers in this situation, not the percentages to get a much better feel of how much "harm" has allegedly been done!!

 

NTX5467

Edited September 27, 2015 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[DAVES89]

Dave,

 

I think you're on to something here.  Instead of 'fining' VW, VW would be forced to buy back the dirty, environment-defiling cars from mislead owners, then VW could sell the cars to China and/or India where emissions are apparently of little or no concern.

 

Everybody wins ... sorta.

 

Just sayin',

Grog

Nope, car has to be crushed. No profit to be made. As a matter of fact the value of the crushed car can go to any government agency for fines. That way the current owner of the car isn't damaged, the government gets "something" and VW gets nothing...

[NTX5467]

Seems that more TDIs were sold in India and that area, which allegedly makes "their" problem worse than in the USA?  Still, though, without any regulations at all, ALL engines still have stoichiometric air/fuel ratios at which they are most efficient (and produce the most NOx as HC and CO are minimized).  There are catalytic converters which can do all three at once, as we had in the later 1980s on gas engines in the USA, or the combination of a HC and CO converter in concert with a separate NOx converter (as late 1980s GM HD gas-motor pickups had).  The "big fixes" are really easy to get a vehicle to even 1990s emissions levels, especially with the current "direct injection" for gas motors and "pulsed direct injection" for diesels . . . all with electronic controls doing these marvelous things!

 

The government "fine" is so big as it's a per vehicle fine.  Everybody's seeming to "get lost in the numbers" of this whole deal.  The fine, the alleged emissions increases (per cent rather than real numbers), but the end result is that the customers got the more fuel efficient "cult" vehicles they wanted . . . which is really ALL THAT MATTERS.

 

NTX5467

[Guest]

 

 

As a related issue, back when the first orientations were to raise the national speed limit from 55mph, some legislators holler about "increased air pollution" (as the engines would be running faster and such, at the increased road speeds).  CAR AND DRIVER had an editor who contacted an associate in the Chrysler vehicle emissions lab to see if this legislator was correct or not.  Luckily, they had a long-term test vehicle they could run such a check on.  The particular Dodge Neon had about 80K on it at the time.  At 55ph, it emitted .001 gm/mile of NOx at 55mph.  At 70mph, it emitted .003 gm/mile of NOx.  Yep, a 300% increase for sure!  But as the starting number was basically "nothing", 3 times "nothing" is not much more of anything!  Look at the real numbers in this situation, not the percentages to get a much better feel of how much "harm" has allegedly been done!!

 

NTX5467

 I'm trying to follow your timetable here. The first orientations came in 1987-88, and in 1995 the repeal of the law altogether. Dodge neon starts as a 1995 model first produced in 1994. Is this model that was tested a pre production vehicle ?

[Guest]

To crush these vehicles is a waste of resources. We know the vehicles can comply with regulations because they were programed to do so when they were being tested. Just reprogram the ECM's or replace them. 

I worked for a major auto manufacturer and remember we had problems on some cars of our model lineup. At the factory and marshaling points we reprogrammed the ECM's. This was before any vehicles reached the dealers. 

 

Punishing is appropriate, but it must be appropriate punishment. If you are trying to break a company for some other reason, try and take heed to some simple old parenting rules. When spanking a child, the first smack on the butt is for the punishment and any smacks thereafter is for the parent.

[60FlatTop]

You just can't get the best acceleration with sniffled emissions waffling from a diesel tail pipe. It takes something like this:

 

Where's the EPA when those get doled ot?

Bernie

[8E45E]

I actually just read another statement suggesting that VW's fine could be $18 billion (with a "B"). Holy cow! That's almost 20 times more than the GM fiasco--in which people died, by the way. Wow.

 

Will VW be able to come back from this? If that fine sticks, it'll be tough, and that could be bad news for the world economy. Once again, is "too big to fail" a real thing? VW is the 14th biggest company in the world...

VW could easily retaliate and pull out of the US market altogether.  Think of all the suppliers, dealers, etc., that will be affected if they did that.  VW does not have to depend on the North American market for survival.

 

Craig

[Guest Skyking]

VW could easily retaliate and pull out of the US market altogether.  Think of all the suppliers, dealers, etc., that will be affected if they did that.  VW does not have to depend on the North American market for survival.

 

Craig

I totally disagree with that statement. After seeing what's on our roads in America, they all rely on our market!

[padgett]

Anyone ever read "Atlas Shrugged" ? (movie was terrible)

[ply33]

Anyone ever read "Atlas Shrugged" ? (movie was terrible)

 

Yes, I read it. Never saw the movie. I did not read it as a child or teenager but after I had spent some years working in industry and I found the book to be totally unbelievable. Which makes my enjoyment of this quote even better:

 

 

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.

[rocketraider]

In my view the only thing VW did wrong was to get caught.

 

Pull out of the US market? Most European car companies have managed to survive without the US market and its onerous regulations and restrictions. The European versions are a hell of a lot more fun and efficient, while we put up with stifled performance and buggered styling to satisfy US specs.

[padgett]

Just wondered because a number of the rants here reminded me of it.

[John348]

Yesterday afternoon around 5PM a friend and I went to the Yankee game. Peak rush hour in the NYC/Surburban area, we were looking for a VW TDI and only saw one out of many vehicles. As pointed out in an earlier post the majority of the problem vehicles are on foreign soil, where pollution is of no or very little concern regardless of where it comes from, industrial or a vehicle.  

Edited September 29, 2015 by John348 (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

What an unregulated, EPA-free, "Atlas Shrugged" type world might look like: 

 

 

 

 

 

Paradise!

[padgett]

The only thing I can be sure of is that the future will be different from anything we can imagine. At the same time on a drive from Orlando to northern Arkansas about 7 feet off the ground, I was reminded of just how much of even the southeast is unimproved land (and that high up you see a lot on the sides you can't see from a car.

 

So as long as we can keep the politicians focused inside the beltway (and Tallahassee is as far from anything as we could put it) I have great belief in our country to survive even them.

 

ps diesel in automobiles is ded.

[C Carl]

In '68 I worked as an aviation electronics engineer at the Hollywood-Burbank (now Bob Hope) airport in the San Fernando Valley (L.A.). I had previously lived in Seattle , working for Boeing. I was also a pilot who flew in the atmosphere , and an amateur astronomer who looked through it. As a human being who had to breathe that atmosphere , I still recall wiping the tears out of my burning eyes from the foul pollutants of that toxic mix. The incessant "summer cold" that we "Angelenos" suffered back then (relieved only by unacceptable levels of ethyl alcohol intake) , was a serious quality of life detriment. Factoring in all the above , I gave up a job which could have led to a high-level position in what was then the worlds largest aviation maintainance and modification company. That was a tough decision , believe you , me. I shudder to think what the China-like environment would have been like now if the despicable "gummin" hadn't interfered. Now with significantly more industry , population , and car miles driven and idled in So. Cal. it would have become virtually uninhabitable. Oh , yeah , and please spare me acusations of "pinko commonist" sentiments. My political points of contact form a very wide spectrum. In some ways , I am 50,000 miles to the right of Atilla the Hun. In other carefully considered insights , yeah , I think more "progressive" ("L-word") solutions might indeed be the way. But then again I have spent many years traveling , living , and working in various divergent foreign countries. No one person , country , or political persuasion can be 100% right 100% of the time. I am not trying to pick a fight here , but considering the real-world conditions , and the above experiences , count my lot cast with the ever astute Matt.

Lovingly yours , my dear cyber friends , now breathing clean air in the Globally Warmed Pacific Northwest (What comfort !) , - Carl

[Mark Gregory]

Here Matt is Parade Blue Sky in China .http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/04/asia/china-beijing-blue-sky-disappears-after-military-parade/index.html

[C Carl]

Uh huh , same thing happens in Mexico City during Semana Santa , Easter week. Most industry shuts down , and traffic is a trickle due to the populace going to whatever resort. Don't be caught at the beach during this time ! Enjoy the clean , quiet D.F. (Mexico City). Enough attractions and facilities remain open. What a delightful place that must have been for the inhabitants at the fortunate end of the socio-economic spectrum in colonial times ! I have been in and out of Mexico City since 1954 , when my adventurous long distance car cruising parents took us on a month long Mexico trip in Dad's '50 Willys Jeep station wagon. - Carl

Edited September 29, 2015 by C Carl (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

I've been around long enough to have seen science replaced by dogma (dogma du jour, if you like). If one questions a pseudo-science the supporter quickly points a finger and gyrates, chanting "Denier! denier!" or uses ridicule which is one of the most effective censorship devices available. Effective ridicule causes the intelligent one to just roll their eyes and walk away.

 

Recently there was an attempt to revive the sciences with a national STEM program. I joined and never got any follow up. The program name has changed to STEAM. Apparently the majority couldn't connect Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math, but STEAM, relating to 19th century locomotives was recognizable as getting the program "up to steam". The "A" supposedly puts Art into the equation. I guess they left out all the dogmatic BS artists the first time out.

 

Think LA was bad? Here's the good old home of the EPA, any night 2015.

 

OK, this is where they just passed a law for more efficient power plant operation. Really, the power plant is running for the lights no one turned off. It's too bad DUH is a three letter word. If it was a four letter world it might get attention,

 

Atlas Shrugged, Duh Sequel

Bernie

Edited September 29, 2015 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[Guest]

C Carl

 

I agree with you and your actual real world testament to the damage air pollution can cause.  I too am generally conservative but believe common sense needs to prevail and thus can accept any good idea to solve a problem.  The issue I have is it is seldom the government, especially federal government - that comes up with efficient solutions.  Solutions maybe, but at a great cost.  The recent news that it cost $500 million dollars to train 5 Syrian rebels to fight ISIS is my case in point.

 

For the California and other inversion bowl pollution zones, I think it was just such a sudden in your face result, ala BeJing China now, that it took awhile for everyone to catch up to the issues.  Now, it will take a few more years as we transition to hybrids and electrics.   I am in Iowa, and I would not mind purchasing a long range electric car if it would help me keep my old cars on the road. 

 

After having lived in the L.A. basin for over 50+ years and gone elsewhere since, I have seen a dramatic change in the air Quality. I remember going to my Dad's business in Hollywood ( we lived very close to the beach) in 1959. At that time your eyes stung and kept watering. By 1969 more than half of that stuff was gone, but I can tell you it will never be all gone. Today it is even better and the population explosion in the area and it's suburbs is unthinkable, still it's better.

The Indians had a name for the L.A. basin and that name was given before the White man settled there. L.A. area was known as the VALLEY OF THE SMOKES by the Indians and the smoke was from all the Indian campfires. Most of the time the air there is trapped by the mountain ranges that hold it in. So it was never pristine while man was around.