Cigarette Company Car Collection in Canada

[Graham Man]

Anybody remember the name of the large car collection in Canada owned by the cigarette company?  If I remember correctly they had a fire?  Guessing it was in the 70's?  Looking for dates and a name?  I am trying to track a cars history.

 

Thank you for the help

 

 

[Guest AlCapone]

I think it was Rothmans ! Wayne

[dei]

Wasn't it the CRAVEN A Collection? Not sure about a fire.

Might have a book / advertisement somewhere.....

Edited August 31, 2015 by dei (see edit history)

[wayne sheldon]

The Reynold's collection used to be in Canada. I believe that they had a tobacco connection. 

I sold a car to them along about before 1980. I really did not want to sell it, but needed the money for children's medical bills. I have often wondered what ever became of the car. It was in poor condition, however extremely rare. I think they were eager to get it because it was something Bill Harrah did not even have (truthfully, there were a lot of cars he did not have). He died shortly after they got the car. I do hope that they restored the car, because the car deserved to be restored by someone that had the money to do it properly. I would hate to find out that they never restored the car. Or worse, lost it.

Good luck on your quest!

[jeff_a]

Wayne,

 

There was no connection between the Reynolds Collection and tobacco in any form. You are probably mixing up the R. J. Reynolds Tobacco Co./JamesDuke/Doris Duke and Stan Reynolds. Stan Reynolds lived until very recently (1923-2012). What rare car did you did you sell to him? Stan flew in the Royal Canadian Air Force during the war, and started dealing in cars afterwords. Eventually he had 2,500 cars and trucks in a collection called Reynolds Museum, Ltd. That is gone now....but as you may know, he arranged with the government to take over his collection. They built a 20 or 30 million dollar facility to house 851 machines, $11,000,000-worth, which he donated to what is now the Reynolds-Alberta Museum there in Wetaskiwin, Alberta. He even threw in 60 aircraft. Fantastic museum. You should visit! I spent a week up there once taking a restoration class.

Edited September 1, 2015 by jeff_a (see edit history)

[Graham Man]

If I remember correctly it was the Craven collection. The car I am trying to track is a 1929 Graham-Paige 835 Dual Cowl Phaeton. Apparently the crew at Craven found the dual cowl body and later found a 1928 835 frame, engine, and running gear. They put the two cars together to build the current car. The fire story was way exaggerated, only a small fire no cars were damaged. Would love to find out how much of this story is correct.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Graham Man (see edit history)

[keiser31]

The Reynold's collection used to be in Canada. I believe that they had a tobacco connection. 

I sold a car to them along about before 1980. I really did not want to sell it, but needed the money for children's medical bills. I have often wondered what ever became of the car. It was in poor condition, however extremely rare. I think they were eager to get it because it was something Bill Harrah did not even have (truthfully, there were a lot of cars he did not have). He died shortly after they got the car. I do hope that they restored the car, because the car deserved to be restored by someone that had the money to do it properly. I would hate to find out that they never restored the car. Or worse, lost it.

Good luck on your quest!

O.K...I'm curious. What extremely rare car did you have?

[Dave Mellor NJ]

Reynolds bought a huge amount of the Barney Pollard cars.

 

 

 

 

[Restorer32]

It was the Craven Foundation who had the Graham Paige. They contracted with us to build the stainless steel top irons and bows for the car to their measurements. What I remember most is the check (cheque?) they paid us with. A large, gold leafed, beautifully engraved check, almost too pretty to cash. This was some time pre 1990.

[dei]

If I remember correctly it was the Craven collection. The car I am trying to track seems to have changed its feathers in their possession. The car was out of the Noland Pest car collection, a 1928 Graham-Paige 835 Dual Cowl Phaeton. After the fire in the Craven collection the car was restored/(not sure what to call it) put back together? anyway they rebodied it with 1929 Graham-Paige parts and now called it a 1929 837 Dual Cowl Phaeton. That transformation is what had me stumped. Would sure like the new owner to check the numbers to see if I am correct. The car is now in Arizona with new colors, before that it was sold out of the JEM collection in PA.

 

 You might want to contact this organization as it states they acquired some vehicles and Library / Archives from the "disbanded" Craven Foundation.

 

http://www.canadianautomotivemuseum.com/our-collection/craven-collection/index.html

 

It doesn't seem to have a Graham listed but maybe they might have some history / leads for you.

 

Good Luck.

[8E45E]

As others have stated, it was the Craven Foundation.  In 1967, when Canada celebrated its 100th Anniversary, Craven sponsored a cross-Canada tour of antique cars as part of the Centennial celebrations.  Some history here: http://naacc.ca/history.html

 

Their most popular brand was 'Craven A' cigarettes.

 

Craig

[8E45E]

I think it was Rothmans ! Wayne

In the late 1970's, Rothmans (and if it wasn't Rothmans, it was duMaurier) did have a small collection of 1950's cars, which was part of their "Light up the '50's" campaign, and these cars were on display in various shopping malls across Canada.  

 

One car in their collection that was rather rare was a 1957 Pontiac Pathfinder sedan delivery.  It was a 'Canada only' car as the last U.S. Pontiac sedan delivery was made in 1953. 

 

Craig

[Guest Tawom]

On 9/1/2015 at 12:07 AM, Graham Man said:

If I remember correctly it was the Craven collection. The car I am trying to track is a 1929 Graham-Paige 835 Dual Cowl Phaeton. Apparently the crew at Craven found the dual cowl body and later found a 1928 835 frame, engine, and running gear. They put the two cars together to build the current car. The fire story was way exaggerated, only a small fire no cars were damaged. Would love to find out how much of this story is correct.

 

The car in question is a 1929 Graham-Paige 837 LeBaron bodied Dual Cowl Phaeton; however some details of that restoration are incorrect. 

Attached is an old newspaper photo I recently came across, of the  "Craven Foundation's 'Greatest Show on Wheels' car collection" that apparently toured the country back in the day.  The other two photos I found not long ago, but can't remember what I searched for when I Googled.  I believe that is the same car, based on those same incorrect details and the color scheme. It's obviously well looked after now.   Graham Man, you have a '29, what's 'wrong' with this car?  ;-)

Edited September 27, 2017 by Tawom (see edit history)

[Graham Man]

I am not sure what you are looking for information wise?  I think the Craven found dual cowl body story is correct, it was from a good source.  I would love to see the car to confirm the details.  The car in the black and white picture, I believe you are correct, it is the same car.  In the black and white picture the car would have been green and yellow (fenders).  It was green and yellow when it was sold from the J.E.M. collection auction around 1999?  The currant owner painted it the colors you see, I believe the car is still in a private collection in Arizona.

 

What's wrong with the car, nothing if it was built as the story goes.  If Graham-Paige built it there are lots of inconsistencies.  Some depend on the year it was built...I am not sure, somewhere between 1928 and 1931.  The car has Graham-Paige parts from all those years and some parts Graham-Paige never used (including the radiator cap).  Now here is the big problem, these cars (dual cowl phaetons) were expensive and hard to sell in the middle of the depression, the 1928 dash I have seen in other later model Graham-Paige dual cowl cars so it is possible Graham-Paige had Phaeton bodies built and on hand but not installed on cars till later years? just speculation.  As the Craven story goes the top assembly was a reproduction made in stainless steel, that would be easy to check, original would be steel.  The big give away is the front windshield, this is the only Graham-Paige I have seen with this style windshield I am 99% sure Graham-Paige did not put it on the car.

 

My guess is you might be looking at the car and trying to establish a value.  The 1929 New York Auto Show car is an all aluminum bodied car that sold for $250K a few years back from the Dr. Barbara Atwood Collection.  I have a problem with that car because Joe Graham updated the car in 1935, so it is no longer the New York Show Car (what a waste!).  I think the J.E.M. car sold for $125K plus the restoration costs...

 

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/news/auctions/upcoming-auctions/vintage-auto-collection-of-dr-barbara-atwood-in-rms-jan-16-biltmore-event/

 

[Guest Tawom]

"I am not sure what you are looking for information wise?  I think the Craven found dual cowl body story is correct, it was from a good source.  I would love to see the car to confirm the details.  The car in the black and white picture, I believe you are correct, it is the same car.  In the black and white picture the car would have been green and yellow (fenders).  It was green and yellow when it was sold from the J.E.M. collection auction around 1999?  The currant owner painted it the colors you see, I believe the car is still in a private collection in Arizona."

 

Nothing, information wise actually, however I would like to have more photos of the car, for archive reasons.  The Craven restoration story is correct to my knowledge, in fact it was a 1929 LeBaron body mounted on a 1928 frame.  Being a '28 would likely be an 135" (835) frame, but the 29's came on a 137" (837) frame, so really only seeing the car up close and running a measuring tape between the wheels would get the correct answer.  As for green with yellow color scheme that checks out too, the car was spotted at the Gilmore at one point.  The color scheme the current owner has painted it is quite complimentary, and like I said previously, it looks well cared for.

 

"What's wrong with the car, nothing if it was built as the story goes.  If Graham-Paige built it there are lots of inconsistencies.  Some depend on the year it was built...I am not sure, somewhere between 1928 and 1931.  The car has Graham-Paige parts from all those years and some parts Graham-Paige never used (including the radiator cap).  Now here is the big problem, these cars (dual cowl phaetons) were expensive and hard to sell in the middle of the depression, the 1928 dash I have seen in other later model Graham-Paige dual cowl cars so it is possible Graham-Paige had Phaeton bodies built and on hand but not installed on cars till later years? just speculation.  As the Craven story goes the top assembly was a reproduction made in stainless steel, that would be easy to check, original would be steel.  The big give away is the front windshield, this is the only Graham-Paige I have seen with this style windshield I am 99% sure Graham-Paige did not put it on the car."

 

I guess I should have rephrased when I said what's wrong with the car, with what do you see that is incorrect.  You are correct when you say the parts vary from 1928 - 1931; the grille is correct 1929, including the 8 series porcelain surround on the GP badge; The headlights, though they look like the proper winged 1929 lights, are however mounted in a way I've never seen on these cars (28, 29, 30 or 31), with the large chrome bar added after I believe (see attached pic). The headlight bars on your 827 would have been 'proper' but as we have said, Craven built the car from parts.  Also, the horns - they actually look like 1934 Chevrolet to me, but who knows; Graham-Paige did have leftover DCP bodies and mounted them on later cars up until 1931 and possibly early 1932 series pre-Bluestreak, they updated things like dashboards and gauges as they needed or hard parts for, the Craven car would originally have had the 1929 8 series dashboard with the square gauges; And again you are correct with the windshield, it is too tall, and although GP used a folding windshield the glass was framed, not suspended like on the Craven car where the fold line is. The lower part would have been filled in. (I wonder where the Craven team either found or copied that windshield?);  The wheels and hubcaps are also from a later car, thought suit it quite well;  The hood ornament is not factory, but as I'm sure you know, created by merging the 1929 winged cap with the lady from the 1932 Bluestreak. An idea two friends of mine came up with and another continues to manufacture today.

 

"My guess is you might be looking at the car and trying to establish a value.  The 1929 New York Auto Show car is an all aluminum bodied car that sold for $250K a few years back from the Dr. Barbara Atwood Collection.  I have a problem with that car because Joe Graham updated the car in 1935, so it is no longer the New York Show Car (what a waste!).  I think the J.E.M. car sold for $125K plus the restoration costs..."

 

No, not looking at the car, although I am happy you know of its whereabouts.  I was fortunate enough to have a ride in Dr. Atwood's car when I was a kid, that supercharger whirling up is one of my favorite sounds.  And I agree with you on that car, although historically significant as a Graham family car, and subject to a factory update, I too would have preferred the original body work - but the addition of the supercharger I would leave in of course!  Would you happen to have a photo of the original?

 

Attached is another pic I came across of the Craven car - it is wearing early 1970's Ontario license plates. Note the absence of the parallel head light bar, and also the 1928 round style tail lights.

 

Just found this catalog photo from the 2003 RM Auction of the JEM cars.

 

 

Edited October 2, 2017 by Tawom (see edit history)

[Joe in Canada]

I believe the literature went to the Canadian Automotive Museum  in Oshawa that displays mainly autos built in Canada. They have a room filled with boxes of literature from different donations over the past 50 years or so. Only in the past year they got a grant to hire a librarian to catalog it all.  If you want to know about McLaughlin Buick they have the info but it will be buried in the pile somewhere.

[Restorer32]

We created the top irons for this car. The originals were non existent. They gave us measurements of the body. We used a '29 Packard Sport Phaeton top for inspiration and fabricated a new set of top irons in polished stainless steel to fit. This was pre 1990.

[Graham Man]

If your picture is correct J.E.M. must have done the new colors?  I thought it was the current owner.  So J.E.M. must have changed the 28 tail lights to 1929 style (the 1928 8 cylinder taillights are harder to find, Nash also used them).  You are correct the headlight stands are 1932 Blue Streak parts, interesting they used the water drain holes to mount the faux headlight bar.  I believe the headlights are also incorrect they look Graham but not 837 too small.  The horns were not a factory option in 1929, well a second tail light also was not an option in 29.  All Graham-Paige cars came with black fenders till 1932 Model 57 Blue Streak.

 

Don't get me wrong this is a beautiful car, the number of people who know Graham cars well enough to critique it, you could probably count on one hand.

 

"I was fortunate enough to have a ride in Dr. Atwood's car when I was a kid, that supercharger whirling up is one of my favorite sounds"

 

First off, wish I had meet Dr. Atwood, and ridden in her Graham would have just been a bonus!  Maybe I am bias but I have driven both engines, I have to go with the 322 eight, ok here is why, its sound is a deep throaty roar, the torque is incredible, it just pulls forever.  The Supercharger is just different, first it is a 245 CID with an aluminum head, so it is louder and less refined sounding, the torque is good but it wants to go through the gears.  The big eight you could start off in 4th gear and drive right up to 70mph, I don't think it would even notice.

 

If I had my choice the New York Auto show car would go back to original...with maybe one exception.  The story goes LeBaron ran out of time to build the aluminum hood in time for the show, so it went with a steel hood...(I will add pictures tonight)

Edited October 3, 2017 by Graham Man
add pictures (see edit history)

[Guest Tawom]

Oh no arguments here, it's a beautiful car.  I'm just a stickler for details ;-)

[dei]

I know this is an older thread and after reviewing it love seeing what information has come to light.

My addition here won't help with the car per say but just recently found paper I had stored in the bottom of some drawers that would be period correct for when Craven owned the Graham.

 

Sorry for the poor scan. (It is too big for my scanner)

 

[Rusty_OToole]

For those not in the know, the cover car is Henry Seth Taylor's 1867 steam car made in Stanstead Quebec.

[dei]

Was that car in the Collection or was it just featured on the large coloured flyer I have? 

[Joe in Canada]

If you want info from the Craven Foundation you could call the museum and ask for Jack Innis. Jack has been around the museum for a long time and was the head honcho for many years but still comes in.

[8E45E]

That book, Cars of Canada came out in 1973; some 45 years ago.  It truly deserves an update/reprint as more information and photos (much of it thanks to the internet) since when it was first printed.

 

Craig

[J. Marshall Mangan]

I saw the Graham-Paige on display in the lobby of an office building at Bloor & Yonge in Toronto in 1972. It was in its green and yellow livery at that time, as shown in the colour photo from "Graham Man" above. It was one of the most beautiful things I had ever seen. I used to get off the subway 8 blocks from my apartment just so I could go and marvel at it. It ignited my interest in classic cars, which I have had ever since. It was definitely from the Craven collection, which at one time was the largest in Canada. Sad to know that it died, although we can't mourn the passing of cigarettes. Thanks to other members for these updates.

[playswithbrass]

Welcome aboard

[8E45E]

From City of Vancouver Archives:  http://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/as-auto-show-72-in-pacific-showmart-building-7

 

Craig

[1912Staver]

Hi 8E45E, I remember seeing that display as a 14 year old .  My father used to take me to any displays in the Greater Vancouver area. My how time flies.

 Greg in Canada

[8E45E]

That collection made the rounds.  I recall seeing them in Edmonton on occasion, in 1968, and again in1970 at the Antique Car & Gun Show that was held at the Kinsmen Fieldhouse in those days. 

 

At the 1970 show, Crosstown Motors had a 1928 Chrysler on display, and the one 1970 Chrysler 300-H convertible that was made only for auto shows.  I had a lengthy conversation with the current owner of that car at the Muscle Car & Corvette Nationals in Chicago in 2016. 

 

Craig