1950 Buick HELP!!! Very Very Frustrated. About Ready to Give Up!!!

[Guest Joshhirst13]

Hey Guys, I need some major help. I can't get my car to start. I thought I had everything done & ready to go, but I guess not. I actually got it to start & run before I took it all apart & now it's back together again & I'm dumbfounded. Here's what I've do e so far.

-rebuilt carb & replaced broken heat tube from exhaust manifold to carb.

-cleaned cylinder head

-took apart & cleaned rocker arm/put back together

-removed/cleaned/installed lifters

-cleaned/replaced push rods

- new 6V battery

-new 0 gauge battery cables

-rebuilt distributor/cap/points/etc. & aligned rotor with #1 plug.

-new plugs

-new plug wires

-new 6V ignition coil

-removed oil pan/cleaned/installed with new seal.

-new oil pick up screen

-cleaned oil pump & packed with Vaseline

- fresh fuel coming from a gas can. Not the tank. Fuel pump is working because carb is getting fuel.

-fresh oil

I think that's it. The car seems to be turning over really slow. Like it's not getting enough juice to fire the car. #1 plug wire is getting spark. I've tried two different sets of plug wires. 2 different ignition coils. 2 different batteries. I'm really stuck. Any suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[Rooster]

Check valve clearance.

[JohnD1956]

A few suggestions:

charge the battery for a 24 hour period.

remove all the spark plugs and put a little oil into each cylinder. Leave the plugs out.

When the battery is charged crank the engine observing the oil gauge. as soon as it moves even a little, stop. Note the cranking speed the engine turns without plugs.

If you are still thinking the cranking speed is too slow, you either have a weak battery or a bad connection on the cables. If the speed seem adequate, I would recharge the battery again while manually bringing the 1st piston to top dead center. To do that you need to remove the valve cover again and bring the first piston to the top while both valves are closed. Once you have done this, remove your distributor cap and look again to assure yourself that the rotor would be aligned with the #1 spark plug wire. Ken is of course right about making sure of the valve clearances. Might as well take the few moments now to do that while the engine is easy to turn.

Then check the gap on your plugs and reinstall.

After a 2nd charging, I would put a little gas down the carb throat, and give it a try.

[avgwarhawk]

Don't throw in the towel! As JohnD suggested. Make sure your spark and fuel are happening at the right TIME. Start from scratch getting the #1 cylinder at TDC. Rotor button point at #1 terminal on the cap when you have confirmed the #1 cylinder is at TDC.

[DonMicheletti]

Along with having the distributor at TDC on #1, make sure you are on the compression stroke - you could be 180 degrees off

[avgwarhawk]

Along with having the distributor at TDC on #1, make sure you are on the compression stroke - you could be 180 degrees off

Good point Don!

[60FlatTop]

With the valve cover off, turn the engine over in the proper direction and watch the valve action on number one cylinder. Watch the exhaust valve close, the intake open, then the intake close so both intake and exhaust are closed, watch the timing mark come around, and just before the mark lines up look at your rotor position. It should be right on the edge of the number one terminal. Make sure that sequence happens. Rotate it through a couple of times to feel confident. Then take out the plugs and put a teaspoon of gas in each cylinder. Put the plugs back in and see if she farts.You might have to repeat the gas nursing a few times and move the distributor just a little. It might cough and belch and puke a bit (tech terms) and a big flame might rip right up from the carb if you don't put the breather on, but it should go.

Four of your pistons were at the bottom of the bores where little wear takes place. Those rings are probably stuck in the ring lands and giving low or no compression. The other four were at the top in the wear area and expanded, probably OK. Once you get it started you may have to prime it each day until you have driven it 200 miles or so. It will loosen up with use.

Is that the car you got running a while back but wanted to take apart and clean the caked oil out of? I think I remember commenting on that.

Bernie

Edited April 22, 2014 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[Guest 53 Roady]

I'm not sure you have seen a spark. Hook a plug wire to a loose plug and lay on an iron surface and crank. If the plug doesn't spark you may have a wire loose in the primary circuit or some other gremlin.

Pat

[Guest Joshhirst13]

Hey Guys,

I initially used the timing marks and it was barely cranking. After reading this I tried to find the compression stroke on #1 cylinder by removing the valve cover & cranking the motor by hand. I believe I got it somewhat to the right spot and then had to remove the distributor and reinstall because it was 180 degrees off. The car does seem to want to fire now that I've done this, but still no dice. After doing all of this there are no timing marks anywhere near the compression stroke on cylinder #1. Am I doing something wrong or could it be possible that the flywheel was removed and reinstalled improperly sometime in the past? Or does the motor need to continue to cycle to get to #1 again while matching up to the timing mark? I also don't really have the best understanding of how a motor works, but it seems like cylinder #8 opens once in between each other cylinder. So for example it would go #1, #8, #6, #8, etc. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Josh

[JohnD1956]

No, the valves for the # 8 cylinder will not open between each other cylinder. It may just be an optical illusion. In the scheme of things, when both of the valves first close for any cylinder, the piston should be at the bottom of it's cylinder bore. The piston then needs to travel to the top dead center position to compress the gases in the cylinder. Once the fuel charge is compressed, the spark plug detonates the charge and the valves should remain closed while the fuel charge expands and pushes the piston to the bottom of it's cylinder bore. At that point the exhaust valve opens while the piston is pushed to the top of the bore by other pistons , and in turn pushes the exhaust gas into the exhaust manifold. Right after that happens the exhaust valve closes and the intake opens. as the piston drops to the bottom of it's bore it creates a vacuum and sucks the fuel mixture into the cylinder. When at the bottom both valves should be closed again.

As you can see, the time when either valve is open is small in comparison to the amount of time the valves remain shut and the piston makes a complete revolution.

Remove the # 1 plug. Then rotate the engine till both valves for that cylinder are shut. At that point you may be able to see inside the spark plug hole and you should continue to rotate the engine till you see the top of the piston.

When you do see that, then use a plastic straw to lay in the plug hole and continue to advance the engine. The straw should pivot when the piston contacts it. When the piston has reached its top dead center the straw will reverse it's pivot. Note, you can rock the engine back and forth till you find the position of top dead center.

At this point, check the distributor to make sure the points are open. If not, rotate the distributor housing till they are. I would move the distributor in either direction in order to get the points to open on the nearest cam high spot. Also at this point I would use yellow paint to paint a thin line across the flywheel in alignment with the TDC ( or 0 ) mark on your timing gauge.

[Nahuelsan]

Hello!

I don't know if you have done this already but you can check the correct position of the spark plug wires in the distributor cap (or in the differents spark plugs in the cilinder head). Pay attention also to the direction of rotation of the distributor bacause you could put the wires in the correct firing order, but in opossite direction (clockwise when they could be installed anti-clockwise or vice-versa)

Hope it be useful to you and never give up!

Greetings,

[Guest Joshhirst13]

Hey Guys,

So here's where I'm at right now. This time I pulled the spark plugs like JohnD1956 said to do and cranked the motor. It had way more crank speed without the plugs in. It wasn't struggling at all. So with the plugs out it was much easier to turn by hand (Should have thought about that a long time ago) That was half the battle. Getting the motor to turn by hand with the plugs in was a *****. I'm learning. Ha Ha. Anyways, I put a little oil in each plug hole and cranked the motor again watching for the oil pressure gauge to move, but it never did. That being said, I really can't even guarantee the oil gauge even works. How long should I have cranked it before the gauge would work? Maybe I didn't do it long enough. Anyhow, I took my time turning the motor by hand and I am 100% positive that I am now on the #1 Cylinder. I've watched the rocker arm push the first valve spring down and then up, and then I've watched the second rocker arm push the 2nd valve spring down and then up. I'm a little confused at this point. At what point during this sequence are both valves closed? From 50FlatTops description my understanding is that both valves should be pushed down and then return back up to be closed. Is this correct or am I lost? Uggghhhh!!!! I just found this information on Team Buick. Is it true that All Buick In-Line (St. 8) engine cylinders are numbered from front to back with No. 1 cylinder at the front.

Which if I reading correctly means that #1 Cylinder is by the fan and #4 Cylinder is by the firewall. Holy Crap!!!!!!!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!! It doesn't say this anywhere in my manual. I was just going off of the firing order that is written on the plug wire cover, and if you look at that then #1 would be at the back of the motor by the fire wall and # 4 would be at the front by the fan. Looks like I've had everything all backwards. No wonder why it won't start. Looks like I'll be making a few adjustments and letting you guys know how it goes. Hopefully now it will start. Man I feel like such and ASS!!!!!!!

"FIRING ORDER AND SPARK PLUG WIRE INSTALLATION

All Buick In-Line (St. 8) engine cylinders are numbered from front to back with No. 1 cylinder at the front.

Using this numbering system the FIRING ORDER of the In-Line engines is:1-6-2-5-8-3-7-4. The spark plug wires go into the In-Line distributor cap in the firing order and in a counterclockwise direction."

[Pete O]

Number 1 is by the fan and number 8, not 4, is back by the firewall. The cylinders are numbered in sequence 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 from the fan back to the firewall. The firing order on the engine does not refer to how the numbers of the cylinders are arranged, it refers to in what sequence the spark plugs fire.

Don't rely on looking at the rockers for finding top dead center on number 1. Now that you have the plugs out, place your finger over the open sparkplug hole for the no. 1 cylinder. When the piston in no. 1 is coming up on the compression stroke, you will beging to feel pressure building on your finger. Insert a long plastic drinking straw in the sparkplug hole. Don't let it drop all the way into the cylinder! If it doesn't bottom out before you loose it in there, rotate the engine some more to bring up the piston a little bit more. Continue to rotate the engine (clockwise, when viewed from the front) and watch the straw rise out of the hole. When it stops rising, you're at TDC. Then, take a look int the 1 inch square timing hole at the back of the engine, above where the starter mounts. You should be able to see the TDC timing mark on the flywheel.

I drew a crude picture of the arrangement of the cylinders and the the corresponding terminals on the distributer cap. I'm pretty sure that the position of the number 1 cylinder on the cap is right- kind of at the 11 o'clock position. But if anyone out there knows better, please correct me.

Found a good drawing of the distributer. Confims that no. 1 is at 11 o'clock. You know you're all good when you have found that no. 1 piston is at TDC, the timing mark is visible in the peep hole, and the rotor in the distributor is pointing at the no. 1 terminal on the dist. cap. After that, it's only a question of routing the sparkplug wires from the dist cap terminals to the cylinders, 1 to 1, 6 to 6, 2 to 2 etc.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Pete O
found good pic of dist (see edit history)

[trp3141592]

Hi Josh,

Don't feel badly. Surprised me to find that the Cord V-8 is timed on Number 4! This is how we learn!

--Tom

[JohnD1956]

The original oil pressure gauge is a "manual" unit. This means there is a oil line from the engine to the gauge and the oil reading is based upon the actual pressure in the engine, as opposed to an electrical gauge which has a sensor mounted in the engine and and electrical line to the gauge. I am assuming you are using the original oil pressure gauge. Those are usually very reliable. However they could be broken in some cases.

Before you go much further you should look for signs that you have oil pressure. No oil at the bearings is a death threat to an engine. It won't run but a few minutes before major damage. Here is one tip for checking to see if you have oil pressure. Look closely at the area between the front two valves, and see if there is evidence of oil supply. I am not an expert on the straight eight but I believe the oil is fed through the engine to the rocker assembly and then from the ends of the rockers there are small holes which drip the oil onto the valve guides. If you have cranked the engine for one minute without the plugs, I would think you should see oil dripping from the tops of the valves.

Another word of warning. I would not hold the starter engaged for a full minute run time. I would not run a starter for more than a six second period with a six second rest period in between. Chances are it can hold up to a lot more than that. I try not to push any system to its breaking point. Ten six second cycles and you should see movement in the pressure gauge and or fresh oil on the valves. If neither, that issue must be resolved before trying to start the engine

[bhambulldog]

​

Hey Guys, I need some major help. I can't get my car to start. I thought I had everything done & ready to go, but I guess not. I actually got it to start & run before I took it all apart & now it's back together again & I'm dumbfounded. Here's what I've do e so far.

-rebuilt carb & replaced broken heat tube from exhaust manifold to carb.

-cleaned cylinder head

-took apart & cleaned rocker arm/put back together

-removed/cleaned/installed lifters

-cleaned/replaced push rods

- new 6V battery

-new 0 gauge battery cables

-rebuilt distributor/cap/points/etc. & aligned rotor with #1 plug.

-new plugs

-new plug wires

-new 6V ignition coil

-removed oil pan/cleaned/installed with new seal.

-new oil pick up screen

-cleaned oil pump & packed with Vaseline

- fresh fuel coming from a gas can. Not the tank. Fuel pump is working because carb is getting fuel.

-fresh oil

I think that's it. The car seems to be turning over really slow. Like it's not getting enough juice to fire the car. #1 plug wire is getting spark. I've tried two different sets of plug wires. 2 different ignition coils. 2 different batteries. I'm really stuck. Any suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

I would check compression on the cylinders.

[60FlatTop]

"I actually got it to start & run before I took it all apart & now it's back together again & I'm dumbfounded."

It is hard not to appear insensitive. If others refer to this thread in the future, don't do that. The best option if one does find them self in this same predicament is to get the best mechanic from your local Buick or AACA chapter leaning over the fender of your car. The chances of an electronic Q&A helping are pretty slim.

I even looked to see if you were near me, can't tell.

Bernie

[Pete O]

"I actually got it to start & run before I took it all apart & now it's back together again & I'm dumbfounded."

It is hard not to appear insensitive. If others refer to this thread in the future, don't do that. The best option if one does find them self in this same predicament is to get the best mechanic from your local Buick or AACA chapter leaning over the fender of your car. The chances of an electronic Q&A helping are pretty slim.

I even looked to see if you were near me, can't tell.

Bernie

I'd have to respectully disagree. One of the joys of owning an antique car is repairing it yourself. Some guys are more mechanically inclined than others, but you have to respect someone who has no fear of tackling some pretty involved jobs, like dropping the pan and removing the rocker arms. The only way you are going to learn to work on a car is to work on a car. Sure, make sure you have the shop manual, and ask for help if you need it, but by all means dig in and get your hands dirty! In my humble opinion, if you are so mechanically inept that you feel you must farm the repair work out to mechanics, you have no business owning an antique car. Others may disagree, but that's my 2 cents.

[old-tank]

Number 1 is by the fan and number 8, not 4, is back by the firewall. The cylinders are numbered in sequence 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 from the fan back to the firewall. The firing order on the engine does not refer to how the numbers of the cylinders are arranged, it refers to in what sequence the spark plugs fire.

Don't rely on looking at the rockers for finding top dead center on number 1. Now that you have the plugs out, place your finger over the open sparkplug hole for the no. 1 cylinder. When the piston in no. 1 is coming up on the compression stroke, you will beging to feel pressure building on your finger. Insert a long plastic drinking straw in the sparkplug hole. Don't let it drop all the way into the cylinder! If it doesn't bottom out before you loose it in there, rotate the engine some more to bring up the piston a little bit more. Continue to rotate the engine (clockwise, when viewed from the front) and watch the straw rise out of the hole. When it stops rising, you're at TDC. Then, take a look int the 1 inch square timing hole at the back of the engine, above where the starter mounts. You should be able to see the TDC timing mark on the flywheel.

I drew a crude picture of the arrangement of the cylinders and the the corresponding terminals on the distributer cap. I'm pretty sure that the position of the number 1 cylinder on the cap is right- kind of at the 11 o'clock position. But if anyone out there knows better, please correct me.

Found a good drawing of the distributer. Confims that no. 1 is at 11 o'clock. You know you're all good when you have found that no. 1 piston is at TDC, the timing mark is visible in the peep hole, and the rotor in the distributor is pointing at the no. 1 terminal on the dist. cap. After that, it's only a question of routing the sparkplug wires from the dist cap terminals to the cylinders, 1 to 1, 6 to 6, 2 to 2 etc.

Great post and added pictures (for those that missed it go back to original post)...with that info, even I could get a straight-8 runnin'. Remember: fuel, spark, compression...now that you have the spark in the right order...

Willie

[Guest 53 Roady]

I think you said you changed the distributor 180 degrees before you discovered the correct firing order.

Pat

[60FlatTop]

"In my humble opinion, if you are so mechanically inept that you feel you must farm the repair work out to mechanics, you have no business owning an antique car."

yep.

Bernie

[old-tank]

Joshhirst13 has been missing for nearly a week. Either he gave up or is planning...look out Bernie.

[60FlatTop]

That was the quote from message #16.

Here is mine from February 14th: "Once the assembly is checked and OK, install it and run the engine with no valve cover. Be sure all the rockers are getting oil. And watch it flow down the returns. If the returns are plugged use a small tip ship vac and a small flat blade screwdriver to open them while sucking up the crud.

I wouldn't aggressively try to scape any sludge unless it blocked passage of oil or looked loose.

Just follow this routine every 200 to 500 miles depending on how much you drive."

Not humble, authoritative, without pleading to not tear the thing all apart. Here are the credentials: http://brockportinternational.com/xjs/Dir5/Cars/BernieCars.xlsx

Bernie

[old-tank]

Bernie, I forgot the smiley: ;)

[Larry W]

All great advice thus far, you may also want to double check for proper ignition coil polarity. A quick check of the integrity of your oil pressure gauge, would be to disconnect the oil line leading to it and crank the engine to see if oil squirts out, into an empty container of course.

[60FlatTop]

I always smile in authoritative mode. I'll have to pay attention in my humble mode next time.

And that list was a product of my wife saying I should have kept a list of all the cars I had. I did.

Bernie

[Guest Joshhirst13]

Wow!!!! You guys have been busy laying the smack down on Bernie. Hey Bernie no offense taken. I'm just trying to learn & I learn best by doing & messing up. Anyhow. Sorry for being absent for a week. I've been busy with work & family. Anyhow. This is where I'm at right now. So after moving the wires around to the correct position & charging the battery I finally got it to start. It's running really rough right now. I think my next step is to get the timing right. What's weird is when I finally got it start the first time I could turn it off & start it up again multiple times. Today I got it to start fairly easy the first go, but after I turned it off it won't start again. Seems like the battery doesn't have enough power. Maybe the generator??? Any other suggestions? Oh. I've also got to get the valve clearance set as well. Think I want to try to do this when the cars running. Thanks for all the help. I'll try to post a video on you tube soon.

[60FlatTop]

I checked your profile to see how far away you were. I would help. Just don't do too many things at one time.

And here is the message people search for and never find:

Every time you pick up your ratchet be conscious that it is in the "tighten" position. That means whatever you did last was put something together. If you keeping picking it up and it always seems to be in "loosen" it is time to really evaluate what you have been doing.

For the last 26 years my wrench has been in "tighten". You won't find a more rewarding awareness. And it doesn't happen by accident. Works for non-automotive stuff, too.

Bernie

[trp3141592]

Hi

"In my humble opinion, if you are so mechanically inept that you feel you must farm the repair work out to mechanics, you have no business owning an antique car."

Tell that to Jay Leno...

--Tom

[Pete O]

Hi

Tell that to Jay Leno...

--Tom

Funny! Leno is a different situation. He's rich enough to choose to have mechanics work on his fleet of cars. But I have seen him get his hands dirty from time to time. Don't know if it's staged for the cameras, or if he really does turn a wrench when he gets the itch.

[Pete O]

Wow!!!! You guys have been busy laying the smack down on Bernie. Hey Bernie no offense taken. I'm just trying to learn & I learn best by doing & messing up. Anyhow. Sorry for being absent for a week. I've been busy with work & family. Anyhow. This is where I'm at right now. So after moving the wires around to the correct position & charging the battery I finally got it to start. It's running really rough right now. I think my next step is to get the timing right. What's weird is when I finally got it start the first time I could turn it off & start it up again multiple times. Today I got it to start fairly easy the first go, but after I turned it off it won't start again. Seems like the battery doesn't have enough power. Maybe the generator??? Any other suggestions? Oh. I've also got to get the valve clearance set as well. Think I want to try to do this when the cars running. Thanks for all the help. I'll try to post a video on you tube soon.

Congrats on getting her started. What's the ammeter showing while it's running? As for the timing, read the shop manual for the procedure. It involves disconnecting the tube from the vacuum advance and making sure it's idling slowly. If like me you don't have a 6V timing light, you can connect the power leads on your light to a 12V battery, and connect the sensor to the #1 spark plug wire.

[Rondek]

Thank you guys so very much for all your help.  I have been working on the 1949 Buick Super that used to be my dad's...  I could not figure out what I was doing wrong with the timing.  This was so helpful.  I am hoping this information will make a difference.   Now back to the car.  

 

 

 

 

 

[Bleach]

I had no problem using my run of the mill timing light on a 6V car. It seemed to flash the same way it did on any 12V car. I don't recall the brand. I would have to look for it to get the name. There is no 6/12V switch.

Edited April 25, 2021 by Bleach (see edit history)