Removable outside door panels on first-gen Rivs question

[JanZverina]

After seeing some discussion on GM's great idea to use removable outside door panels on the first-gen Riv to service the internals, I read the body service manual (BSM) in more detail. It looks like just about all window track adjustments, lubrication, glass, rubber, seal replacements, etc. have to be done from the outside, and while removing the door panels may be fairly easy, the thought of properly realigning them during reassembly seems a bit daunting. My question is, what exactly can one service or access by removing the interior panel? Figure 2-9C on page 2-5C of BSM seems to indicate just about nothing. For example I'd like get my rear paddles (where one can open the door from the rear seat) to work a bit smoother. After 50 years of probably never being used much, they work but are stiff, but I don't want to break anything. Is this a matter of hardened grease?

Maybe there's a tech article on the ROA site? It would be nice to see a list of what's accessed from the inside. I'm thinking such a list would be short, while what's accessed from the outside is even shorter: everything else! I guess that design was eventually filed under "It sounded like a good idea at the time." Any thoughts from those who have delved into the realm of outside panel removal are appreciated! Bernie - I know you have, from pix on other threads.

Thanks/

[TexRiv_63]

Nothing is accessible from the inside, you have to remove the outer panel. The good news is its pretty easy, I removed and reinstalled both of mine and had no trouble with alignment. I was lucky in that mine were rust free and I was able to remove all the T-bolts easily, biggest issue is some may want to spin and not come out. Once the panel is off you should clean and lubricate all the window tracks and linkage do window adjustment if needed, and make sure all the bolts are tight. I had a malfunctioning drivers window which I thought was a motor problem, turned out a track bolt had fallen out and caused a bind. Put the bolt back in and it worked fine. Good luck.

[Don McClair]

I agree with Don in that they are fairly easy to remove. If any of the "T" bolts want to spin use a plastic putty knife between the nut and the inner door shell to apply pressure to the "T" bolt. If you break any of them replacements are available thru CARS and possibly Restoration Specialties. Also, I would start with the piece of exterior trim under the vent window. Once you remove the screw on the leading edge, hold a paint stick on the back edge of it and tap the paint stick with a small hammer and the trim piece should slide forward. There are two screws under it that secure the top edge of the door skin that have to be removed. There is also one screw at the top rear edge of the door shell that does the same job. You can see it with the door open. The long piece of the trim on the top of the door does not need to be removed. Once all of the bolts and screws are removed just lift out from the bottom and then up you now have the door skin off. I would start with the passenger door. The drivers door is slightly more complicated only because of the remote mirror adjustment lever that needs to be removed from the door panel. If all goes well you can probably have the second door skin off in about 15 minutes.

Installing the door skin is almost as easy but I would suggest that you secure the door skin with a few bolts and then verify that the door handle works properly.

[JanZverina]

Thanks, gents - very helpful info and great pictures! I think I'll tackle that project when I'm ready to replace some vent window seals so I can do everything in one shot. TexRiv, was the door panel removal/install a two-person job? And I can see the need for WD40, but what did you use the Scott's Potting Soil for? (only kidding).

[60FlatTop]

Here is where to get the T-bolts for $4 each. I'm not at that point yet, so don't buy them all: abandg@aol.com

The first generation Riviera was the first attempt at side windows with no chrome surround. Everything else has chrome that dates back to the origin of convertible coupes. GM was worried about wind noise so the removable door panel gave access to all the adjustments with the door and window closed.

As GM phased in the curved side windows, sealing was enhanced by the pressure of the glass.

The removable door skin is pretty exclusive. The only other car to have them is the Fiero.

The door hold up well against rust because the seam helps drain.

It is quite a surprise to take the inner panel off for the first time, but you learned those words to use sometime.

Bernie

[1965rivgs]

Be sure when you install the door skins that you catch the lock rod within the "hoop" actuator from the door lock cylinder. It is very easy to miss this and eventually find, after finalizing assembly, that the door lock will not work. It`s an easy job but not one you want to do twice. Good luck,

Tom Mooney

[lrlforfun]

OK Riviera People: A few things minor things to add. What used to be a somewhat straight forward job of r & ring those door panels can easily turn into a real difficult job if not approached with meticulous detail. First, Father Time has put all kinds of roadblocks in front of us.

1. Make sure each and every nut easily "glides" on the threads all the way.

2. Test each and every T-bolt in it's pocket securely because if you put on the door panel and they spin and don't tighten you are in trouble. The time to do this ideally is before metal and paint work (if possible).

3. If you are going to replace the fuzzies on the stainless door trim piece with the repro parts make sure they are aligned with the trim piece and it's square on the door where it's supposed to be as well as secure. The kit gives a set of sheet metal screws which work fine.

Finally, a question. Is there a clip kit for the door and other body side moldings.

Mitch

[RivNut]

Ask and ye shall receive.

http://www.oldbuickparts.com/catalog/1963-up-riviera-group-17-moulding-clips-moulding-clip-1963-65-riviera-kit-p-850.html

[TexRiv_63]

TexRiv, was the door panel removal/install a two-person job? And I can see the need for WD40, but what did you use the Scott's Potting Soil for? (only kidding).

Definitely a one-person job. Tom's comment about the lock rod is good, I learned about that the hard way.

[Guest Pearville]

I agree with Don in that they are fairly easy to remove. If any of the "T" bolts want to spin use a plastic putty knife between the nut and the inner door shell to apply pressure to the "T" bolt. If you break any of them replacements are available thru CARS and possibly Restoration Specialties. Also, I would start with the piece of exterior trim under the vent window. Once you remove the screw on the leading edge, hold a paint stick on the back edge of it and tap the paint stick with a small hammer and the trim piece should slide forward. There are two screws under it that secure the top edge of the door skin that have to be removed. There is also one screw at the top rear edge of the door shell that does the same job. You can see it with the door open. The long piece of the trim on the top of the door does not need to be removed. Once all of the bolts and screws are removed just lift out from the bottom and then up you now have the door skin off. I would start with the passenger door. The drivers door is slightly more complicated only because of the remote mirror adjustment lever that needs to be removed from the door panel. If all goes well you can probably have the second door skin off in about 15 minutes.

Installing the door skin is almost as easy but I would suggest that you secure the door skin with a few bolts and then verify that the door handle works properly.

Thanks for mentioning that the top door trim does not need to be removed. I am ready to remove the door panels and had not heard or seen the explanation about that trim piece. Thanks again, Mike

[JanZverina]

Hi Mike,

Take some pix, if you can, of the progress.

[Guest CARS, Inc.]

Here is the link for the "T" nut:

http://www.oldbuickparts.com/catalog/1963-up-riviera-group-10-door-door-skin-stud-1963-65-buick-riviera-p-25836.html

We are the manufacturer of these. And only $3.75 each

[Guest onedesertdog]

Hi all,

I should probably start a new thread, but since we are inside the door I'll try here first.

I took the panels off, and the bushings for the window arms were broken. Must be very short in length.

I searched Cars, but maybe I didn't call them by their correct name. Do you happen to have a source?

Thanks,

Buddy

[RivNut]

Mr. G's USA.

Call him and see if one of his will work for you.

http://mrgusa.com/fasteners/

Edited April 3, 2014 by RivNut (see edit history)

[slosteve]

Thanks for the link Ed, that one went in my 'Favorites'

[mt65riv]

I had the experience of the Ts rotating when trying to remove my panels and I was able to complete it by using a 6-in-1 tool between the outer and inner panels as a wedge to keep the T tight.

Also, mine had some of that black sticky tar type stuff on the Ts to hold them in the slots, is that what Buick did or would that have been something a previous person did? Is there a spec in the build manual on this?

Thanks for the tech.

Mike

[RivNut]

Also, mine had some of that black sticky tar type stuff on the Ts to hold them in the slots, is that what Buick did or would that have been something a previous person did? Is there a spec in the build manual on this?

Thanks for the tech.

Mike

Mike, I taken numerous ones of these apart and have come up with the conclusion (my opinion) that the factory did not use any "dum-dum" on the T-bolts. They were snug enough in the channels. Turning the rusted on nuts usually spins the T-bolt and opens the channel. When reinstalling them, I usually try to protect a widened surface on the paint side then gently working the channels back to their original shape and tight enough to hold the bolts with out the "cum-dum." Put some anti-seize of some kind on the bolsts before reinstalling - amke it easier the next time.

I found an inexpensive set of upholstery pullers at Harbor Freight that includes a really wide wedge. These are made of a tough plastic and won't mar the paint surface like a metal screw driver will. Another good tool for wedging between the inner and outer panels is a wooden shim that you use to align the doors on your house. Once you get them started you can literally drive them between the panels so there's a lot of pressure on the T-bolt. First I usually try to get a liberal amount of PB Blaster on the nut and T-bolt and let it sit for a while before trying to remove the nut.

[Washman]

Getting ready to try my hand at replacing my door handles that someone took off . Guess they thought it looked better. Any advise doing this? Member 15313

Edited November 19, 2017 by Washman (see edit history)

[RivNut]

Tell us what you know so far then we can fill in the gaps.

[jsgun]

12 hours ago, Washman said:

Getting ready to try my hand at replacing my door handles that someone took off . Guess they thought it looked better. Any advise doing this? Member 15313

 

If you don't have one, a swiveling ratcheting 3/8 box wrench is very helpful. It allows you to reach the nuts at the front edge of the door much easier. Open up the door all the way, and while standing on the outside of the door, you can get the ratchet head on the nut, and swivel the wrench handle out between the door and fender. Super easy. It also allows you to pull outwards (towards the edge of the door skin) on the nut, forcing it to tighten into the slot on the door skin to stop it from spinning. Also helpful to start at the bottom, and work upwards, leaving the top most nuts in place. I'll remove the one at the front edge, then use my leg to hold the skin in place. Then remove the one at the door handle area, holding the skin by the hole or handle. Haven't dropped mine yet. Helpful to sit the skin on your feet, to get a better hold on it.

 

Once the skin is off, I'd put a dab of silicone on the t-bolt slots, to hold them in place loosely. If you're careful you might be able to bend the slots down enough to hold the bolts in place. I had to get my skin back on the same day, so I used 5 minute epoxy putty.

 

I used "Trim Products" handles from OPGI, and was impressed with them. Watch out for the little black plastic piece on the end of the plunger. It needs to be horizontal. If it's vertical, it breaks.

[KongaMan]

IMHO, a dab of goo on the head helps to hold them in place when moving the door skin around, but it does little to nothing to keep them from spinning if the pocket is loose.

 

The only "fix" is to recrimp the pocket, but doing so without damaging the paint is a very dicey proposition.  Therefore, I'm with the earlier posters who suggest using something (hopefully) non-marking (like a plastic or wood wedge) to jam the head in tight so you can turn the nut.

 

If you're hardcore, you could probably put a glob of JB Weld on each head, but that seems like overkill for what is (or should be) an infrequent problem.

Edited November 20, 2017 by KongaMan (see edit history)

[RivNut]

Before you get to that, you'll need to remove the short piece of stainless that's on the door just below the vent window.  There's a screw that is on the leading edge of that piece. Once it's removed, slide that piece forward.  It will reveal two screw which attach the skin to the frame.  Those moneyed to come out.  Youll also need to be aware that if you have a remote mirror, the skin cannot be totally remo ed until you've unhooked the mirror.

 

Ed

[petelempert]

Boy this topic is an oldie, but goodie. Seems to me Riv owners fall into two categories on this. Those who think nothing of removing door skins and those who are scared. Back when my paint was terrible, I was fearless and had my doors on/off about a dozen times. After my paint job, did it once more. More scared. Felt like a high wire act to avoid chipping paint. PRL
 

[Seafoam65]

                Can someone who has done this tell me what you have to disassemble on the remote mirror lever in order to feed the

the remote mirror cables out of the door when removing the door skin?

[KongaMan]

Get some needle nose pliers.  Grab each cable in turn and pull them out of the socket on the back side of the lever.  The first one is the hardest because all three cables are working against spring pressure.  Make sure that the color coding is intact so you know where to reinstall them.

[1965rivgs]

5 hours ago, Seafoam65 said:

                Can someone who has done this tell me what you have to disassemble on the remote mirror lever in order to feed the

the remote mirror cables out of the door when removing the door skin?

 I`ve done this at least a hundred times over the years but I honestly cant remember at this moment FOR SURE 100% the details! But if memory serves me I dont recall ever needing to take the cables off the joystick on a `65. Just remove the bezel and the joystick should just come thru the hole in the doorskin under the mirror.

 Tom

[Seafoam65]

                Thanks Tom.......that was my assumption, but I had noticed that the cables had been removed from the lever in the photos

that were posted on this blog. I've got to remove my door skins at some point to replace the vent window regulators...the gears are stripping

out on mine.

[rodneybeauchamp]

Winston, I would be interested in what you find and what you do to repair it.

 

This is a job I need to do X 2 next winter, have a set of bronze gears to install

 

and a couple of remote mirrors, just need the correct oval shaped flanges for the knob for the 63 versions. ???

[KongaMan]

If you're planning to mount a mirror on the passenger door, pay attention to where you put it.  My experience is that it needs to be further forward than the driver's mirror, but you also need to make sure that the vent pillar doesn't block your view, you don't put it somewhere that keeps the vent window from opening, and (if it's a manual mirror) you have plenty of room to adjust it so you can see what you want to see.  That is, don't just measure the distance on the driver's door and drill your holes accordingly.

[1965rivgs]

9 hours ago, Seafoam65 said:

                Thanks Tom.......that was my assumption, but I had noticed that the cables had been removed from the lever in the photos

that were posted on this blog. I've got to remove my door skins at some point to replace the vent window regulators...the gears are stripping

out on mine.

Winston,

  Please post a followup to confirm my memory re removal. Regarding the vent window gears, sometimes the riveted housing comes apart from the pressure of the crank/gears and can be repaired easily with a 1/4 inch nut and bolt,

  Tom

[telriv]

When installing a right mirror don't forget to install the re-in forcing plate to the door skin or else the sheet metal screws won't hold for long & the mirror will constantly get loose.

 

 

Tom T.

[rodneybeauchamp]

11 hours ago, KongaMan said:

If you're planning to mount a mirror on the passenger door, pay attention to where you put it.  My experience is that it needs to be further forward than the driver's mirror, but you also need to make sure that the vent pillar doesn't block your view, you don't put it somewhere that keeps the vent window from opening, and (if it's a manual mirror) you have plenty of room to adjust it so you can see what you want to see.  That is, don't just measure the distance on the driver's door and drill your holes accordingly.

 

Hmm, already fitted at factory/dealer were two Buick fixed mirrors (one each side) so I might be governed by the existing mountings. And Tom, thanks for reminding me about the reinforcement plate underneath, critical so it doesn't come loose.

thanks

Rodney ???

[RivNut]

20 minutes ago, rodneybeauchamp said:

 

Hmm, already fitted at factory/dealer were two Buick fixed mirrors (one each side) so I might be governed by the existing mountings. And Tom, thanks for reminding me about the reinforcement plate underneath, critical so it doesn't come loose.

thanks

Rodney ???

You'll want to attach the mirror to the plate, not the sheet metal.  I think you're aware of that but just wanted to reiterate it.