How to make early vehicles reliable

[mrcvs]

Okay, how reliable do you think vehicles from the teens and twenties were in their heyday?

I have a late teens vehicle, and everything is there and nothing is particularly worn out. However, having said that, I question the reliability of this vehicle and fear being stranded quite a distance from home with no real solution.

It did stall once a few weeks ago a block from home. I pushed it home and it started just fine an hour later.

It ran reliably since then. I rebuilt the carburetor, which was leaking due to a stuck float. Was fine up until this morning. Same problem (due to the junk in ethanol petrol?) I stopped it and adjusted the carburetor. Then I couldn't get it going again (but fortunately was at home). I have backed off two turns on the carburetor so that isn't the problem.

Like I said, everything is there and nothing is particularly worn. But yet it isn't that reliable. What do you suggest one needs to do without spending a fortune to guarantee reliability?

[HarryJ]

You need to drive and learn the vehicle. Drive it often and far. Eventually you will learn it's needs where repairs or overhaul is required and can bring it back to the dependability level of it's day. Get a parts list, owner's manual and shop manual if they exsist. Meet and talk to owners of similiar cars and vintage.

[Rusty_OToole]

Tom McCahill made a comment on this subject. Back in the fifties he attended an old car tour. This was a gentle country road drive not a race or rally, yet a large number of the cars broke down. One even had the carburetor body split in 2.

He commented that he drove similar cars thousands of miles when they were new and never had that much trouble. He bought a new Chrysler Imperial Eighty Locke body roadster in 1928 or 29 and drove it from New York City to Miami in 3 days, and did this trip several times with no breakdowns. He also ran a garage in New York in the early thirties with a branch in Miami that serviced Rolls Royce and other luxury imports.

He put it down to metal fatigue and general old age and decrepitude.

You could put a new car in a garage for 50 years and not touch it, and when you took it out the metal would be deteriorating especially the pot metal or white metal. The tires and all the rubber parts would be badly weakened, dried out and mummified. Plastics yellowed, brittle and crumbly. Oil, grease, and gas dried out or gone bad even the upholstery would lose its strength and resiliency.

They were reliable in their day if you bear in mind their limitations. For example they required more service like oil changes, tuneups etc. and most cars had a shorter life than today's cars. But within their limitations they were reliable, but not nearly as good as today's cars.

Edited October 2, 2011 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[mrcvs]

Okay, so what would you go over and pay special attention to in order to make this vehicle reliable?

I just tried to start it again tonight and it wants to turn over but just doesn't quite want to. And then I flooded it. I wonder if it is the recent cool weather. I haven't ever needed to start it on a day under 70 F. I think I might need to choke differently? Or maybe backing off two turns on the carburetor adjustment isn't quite right???

The gas is definitely on and the off-on switch is on. Gas does flow, etc., so I can't figure out why it won't start.

Also, does anyone know how to start using the hand crank. I tried this several times and can't start it this way, either.

I am learning as I go along...

[1937-44]

It would probably help if you would mention what kind of old car you are working with, then maybe someone with more experience with your particular car could chime in. I haven't got any experience with cars of that vintage, but I grew up with an old Allis-Chalmers model B tractor that didn't have an electric start. Once you had the procedure down for starting it which was with a crank it would start on the first or second crank. They are all unique.

[Guest rsd9699]

Find some good gas with out alcohol in it or make you a mixture of 90/10 using some diesel.

I remember my mother telling me about going to visit her grandparents - 70 mile trip one way. Took them from sun up to sun down to make the trip in a Teraplane. One or two flats were normal and the car sometimes refused to electric start and they would get out and push it until they found a hill to roll down and pop the clutch to start it and my grandfather was a mechanic.

Ron

[JV Puleo]

The most reliable car I've ever owned... in the sense that I had absolute confidence I could go somewhere and get back, was a 1910 REO. It took a good three years and two complete dismantlings to get to that point, by which time there wasn't a single part of that car I couldn't recognize and knew how it worked... In the late 70s I drove it from Rhode Island to Long Island... a good 300 miles and back over 3 days. It did have a breakdown that delayed me about 2 hours, but it was one that was entirely my own fault... a repair that was not properly done (which I knew at the time... it was the result of lack of money and skill)

By any modern standard it was slow. You didn't want to commute to work in it (especially if it was raining) but it always started and always ran. I suspect that 90% of the breakdowns you refer to are the result of long term poor maintenance ... hardened grease, clogged oil passages etc. Pot metal literally falls apart by itself but aside from that metal fatigue is rarely a cause for failure in anything except springs and those failures are often the result of worn bushings and pins and loose connecting bolts... all part of maintenance.

[RU22]

A typical weekend motor cycle tour with our 1912 Rudge Multi and sidecar was over 200 miles with a passenger in the sidecar. We ran with a group of old guys that were fast so most of the time was at 40 plus to keep up with the solo riders. Had a flat tire once and had to tighten the drive belt hill climbing but the Rudge always go us home.

You need to drive your machine often and learn as much as you can

Remember those 'Dust bowl'' photos ?

The absolute best way to insure a car's reliability is to get a car Ralph Buckley restored!

[DavidMc]

I have 3 cars of the 1920's and they are now all completely reliable apart from occasional vapor lock and overheating in very hot weather. I have totally restored each one and they took some sorting out when first put back on the road. We recently covered 3,700 kms in one with no problems. The others have done similar trips. Each car is unmodified, restored back to as it was when new with no upgrades. As others have said you have to get to know everything about your car and bring it back to as new condition.

As for reliability when new, when I was a child our family car was a 1929 De Soto. This car was driven for many years with no problems. It certainly required more maintenance than modern cars and was a slower but it never let us down. I do not recall significant reliability issues with cars that were in good condition.

Reliability issues are genearally due to the car not being in top condition. There is no magic wand, everything needs to be checked and repaired as required but its worth it, stay with it.

[trimacar]

Well, if cars of the teens and twenties were as unreliable as some people would like to think, the shoulder of the roads would have been built wider, don't ya think?

In their time, and of brand new manufacture, cars were reliable. Sure, tires were a problem, and I bet vapor lock wasn't near the problem it is today with current gasoline issues.

And, if a car broke down, it was usually something simple. Unless it was a major malfunction, such as an axle breaking, then you needed spark and gas to the engine to go. Vacuum tank might not be working, fuel pump bad, points needed adjusting.

Early on, major malfunctions might hav been more common, but think of the roads at the time, they were hell on springs, axles, frame and so forth.

I recently read of a fellow who used a Model A for everyday transportation for a year. Millions did it for real back then, and in none of the period pictures I've seen, have I seen great quantities of cars pulled over to the side of the road......

[Rusty_OToole]

Cars of the twenties needed more upkeep. Oil change every 1000 miles (no filter) starter, generator, etc had a life of 20,000 miles ring and valve job every 20,000 to 30,000 brakes need adjusting and relining.

Best thing would be to try and find the manufacturer's maintenance recommendations and go by that.

Wonder where Tinindian is, he should have some useful insights.

[mrcvs]

The car described is a Maxwell. I have the original owner's manual and Dyke's automotive from 1918.

Okay, so yesterday I went to start it and it started fine, but gas came pouring out of the carburetor. I had rebuilt it a month ago, which leads me to believe the problem is with the ethanol in gas now, as I just filled it up in Wednesday and it ran fine on that date, and a short drive a day later.

I started to fiddle with the carburetor--sometimes jarring it with the head of a screwdriver jars the float and everything is fine. I did this, having fiddled with the adjustment on the underside of the bowl. When the weather is warm, I could start this car just fine, leaving the choke closed and with the adjustment under the bowl open 2 turns. I have it like this now, and the weather is now chilly. The starter works fine, but it just doesn't want to turn over, and I am running out of battery power. And, I can't seem to crank it on my own using the crank.

So, what do I do now?

Also, where did everyone else learn all they did about old cars? They are simple enough, so I should be able to figure out anything, but no one ever showed me anything at all, so I try and figure it out. When I bought this car, I was told it was always reliable and is good for 15 miles one way and back, but I can get it started one time, and I'm not always sure it will start the next time. In general, though, overall, it has been fine until yesterday and it won't start.

I don't have the means to emply a mechanic so I must figure this out on my own.

Many of you above suggested driving it often and far. So, what do you do if you break down 15 miles from home and can't get it started, etc.?

Someone mentioned a 10/90 mix for petrol. What do you do and how do you mix this? I tried finding a source of non-ethanol gas and there is one about 100 miles away! I think it is sacriligeous that we do NOT have the option of purchasing real gas at virtually every service station.

[MochetVelo]

I suggest you join the AAA and get free tows when your car dies. That

and a cell phone would be good investments!

Also, join a local AACA chapter or car group. You'll find help there sorting out your problems. There is also the Maxwell Roster maintained by Vern Campbell which lists many Maxwell owners, as well as the Yahoo Maxwell/Briscoe Owners Group which you must join and start asking questions. Finally, there will be a Maxwell meeting at Hershey this Thursday at 2:00 in the HCCA tent.

Phil Jamison

[Guest TJDV]

I am not ready for running yet but am working on it. I have a 1916 Buick 5 Passenger Touring car. There is a web site that lists where you can get ethanol-free gas in the US and Canada. Go to Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada and pick your state/province. Read the details as there may be more than one pump that has the gas you want.

[61polara]

Most of us started as you did with little knowledge of our cars, but through research period manuals from the factory and non-factory publications such as Dyke's we began to learn. Trial and error is a great learning tool as well. Joining AACA and Maxwell clubs is a must and get active. The more people you meet with cars of your period, the faster you will learn. Good luck with the Maxwell.

[D Yaros]

I had a neighbor, back in the 50's & 60's who drove his Model A Ford to/from work daily, and that included even in the harsh winters that NW Indiana dished out. It was a more than reliable driver.

[rons49]

These cars of the past will never be as reliable as new ones, just as ones made in 20 years will be more "reliable" than cars built today. What you want is a older fun vehicle that performs as it should under the cicumstances of age. The main problem that you have is fuel delivery. Todays fuel might have an adverse effect over the long run. Read about what the fuels of 1924 were like. Not starting, I believe, is a mechanical fault in the carburator, vacuum tank( does it have one) fuel line or the fuel tank. You need to eliminate one suspect at a time. If the gas tank is sending rust,dirt etc. down the line into the vacuum tank, that will starve the fuel from getting to the carb. The carb itself should be rebuilt will MODERN parts to resist Ethanol from causing deterioration of seals or floats. Are the intake manifolds sucking air and creating an over lean mixture? Join a club ( preferably AACA) and locate a person who can advise you. Don't get too upset. Until I was 20 I did not even know how to change points. This is how we learn... by error. I'm sure this Maxwell is not a daily driver, so when frustration sets in, put it aside, relax and come back again another day. The old Max wil be waiting. Ron

[JV Puleo]

RE: Your gas pouring out of the newly rebuilt carburator... This sounds to me like a bit of grit has gotten into the valve that closes when the float rises. Is the gas tank absolutely clean? Does it need a filter of some sort between the tank and the carb? Rebuilding the carb will not accomplish much if you are getting minute particles of rust or dirt in with the gas... its unlikely such a leak can be attributed to ethanol unless there is some sort of rubber seal that has disintegrated and that should be easy enough to check.

There is no magic solution to problems like this. If you want the car to be truly reliable, you pretty much have to master all of these issues. Its pointless to depend others to do it for you, they won't be with you when the next problem pops up.

I've rebuilt a number of antique machine tools for my shop and I have never dismantled a machine that did not have clogged oil passages... some clogged 3" deep with hardened oil. It isn't enough to put grease in the cups and screw down the cover... you have to know that all of the passages are clear, the bushings in good shape etc. and there is no shortcut to getting there save taking things apart, cleaning them and understanding what they are doing. When the cars were new this wasn't necessary. My own feeling is that new cars are only more reliable than old ones in that they will go further and longer with virtually no maintenance. I dread something going wrong with an electronic component I don't understand and can't fix (and neither does the local mechanic...he just replaces it)...The old cars require a lot more attention but, given that, are every bit, if not even more reliable.

[mrcvs]

Hello all,

THANK YOU for your responses. Okay, the carburetor is still a bit finicky, so I shall have to work on this. But, I did discover that the problem was crud in the fuel line that was impeding the proper flow of fuel once it started. I think, in hindsight, that maybe the original tank of gas did not contain ethanol, and, when I filled up on Wednesday there were materials in the tank that were soluble in ethanol and this flowed down the fuel line and caused the problem.

I am learning as I go along...

I attributed the problem to the carburetor, and this wasn't it. So, after a hard start (and I found that if I push the choke IN, it would start (as out was simply too much fuel) and I took her for a spin and she ran nicely.

In the meantime, I changed the oil and I thought it hadn't been driven much recently, so it probably would be okay. Well, most of it was, but some of it was SLUDGE so it was good I did this.

I think belonging to AAA would be a good idea in case I need a tow. 90% of the time she's reliable, but that other 10% really worries me.

[Guest Al Brass]

Harry J has the most apt advice here. The most reliable old cars are the ones that get continual use and do bigger mileages. Knowing your car well helps a lot and owners of cars they have restored themsleves have a distinct advantage.

Another thing that comes into play is the quality of the original design but even cars lacking in some areas can be improved by a determined owner.

All my cars are now what I would consider 100% reliable, anything I had doubts about has been addressed and fixed. This before it ever lets me down too!

Al

[Guest De Soto Frank]

If you are in the United States, suggest you join the HCCA (Horeselss Carriage Club of America), which is all about pre-1917 autos ( they'll still probably help you out, even if your Maxwell is a 1918...), many of which are toured.

See if you can find an HCCA member(s) near you who can help mentor you.

You might also investigate organizations dedicated to Maxwell ( isn't there one for Maxwell - Briscoe - and another marque I can't think of ? ) - the more contacts & resources you have, the easier it will be to get your car running reliably and keep it that way.

As a general rule, to make an old car "reliable", especially one that is coming out of long storage, make sure the fuel, lubricating, and cooling systems are clean and working properly, as well as the electrical system.

Ethanol blended fuels have a reputation for dissolving the varnish on cork carb & vacuum-tank floats, so if you car has cork in the fuel system, it will have to be treated

with an impervious coating....

Otherwise, just methodically going through the machine and making sure the equipment and clean and adjusted properly is 90 % of the battle.

There is a shake-down period of actually getting out on the road and seeing what other issues surface...

As you get various issues resolved, try going a bit farther from home on successive trips until you are confident that you have all the bugs ironed-out.

[lozrocks]

I drive a 1929 Chrysler. I use E10 (10% ethanol). I finished the rebuild in 1984 and she is very reliable. I drive her regularly and I drive her long distances. If you restore your car correctly it will be as reliable as any other car and it will stay reliable if and only if you maintain it. Modern cars need regular maintenance and so too do the old ones. (Maybe more often) Doing work on a car doesn't mean that it is unreliable.

The biggest enemy of any car (or any mechanical device for that matter) is lack of use. If your car sits for months on end it will be unreliable.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Great advice from many here, and an interesting topic regardless of year. I am pretty mechanical and tend to maintain my car but our latest and most favorite car so far stranded us twice. This vehicle is an older quality restoration but it spent some time in storage and did need some sorting out.

First, a headgasket faillure, no alternative there but flatbed home about 5 miles from the house. I would consider this one a "no fault" problem, hard to detect but as I learned from reparing it and taking the head to my machinist (who is a Packard owner!) the straight 8 would often fail where mine did due to the distance between the incoming water and the back of the block. He figures prior owner torqued it on once and forgot it, well, you "chase" it down after a few hundred miles, to prevent a future issue.

Second, condensor faillure again not too far from home, driveable but only at a very low speed, did not want to chance it. Flatbed home. This one MY FAULT - maintenance part that should have been replaced, I was lulled into leaving it as the car ran fine; even my mechanic was not initially hot to replace the ignition parts we had no idea of the age on. So, third season, nice summer night and there you go - ride home in the flatbed. Another learning opportunity.

But here is my point, this could happen agian despite best efforts, with any vintage car. My other option would be to be afraid to drive the car - we routinely go 50, 75 miles from home to shows or just for a nice drive. Fear of a breakdown defeats the purpose of having the car!

ENJOY IT! And keep us posted on your adventures!

[Guest rsd9699]

On the 10/90 fuel mix - if the gas tank holds 5 gallons as an example - you put in 4 1/2 of gas and 1/2 gal of diesel. The drive home will mix the two pretty good - lots of sloshing happens in a gas tank - new or old. A fuel filter is a MUST on all old cars - tanks were rusty back then - even more so today.

Carry a tool set with you - do not leave home without a tool set.

Carry a few spare parts - plugs - points - condenser and a small gas can - like a gallon of mixed fuel or at the very least some 2 cycle oil for the refueling on the road and diesel not available. A spare tube for the tires and a patch kit and a means of airing up the tires. In the olden days they use to pull a spark plug and had a hose that screwed into the SP hole to air up the tires. Also jumper cables and know how to jump a 6 volt system from todays 12 systems.

Oil too thick for the cooler weather puts a load on the starter - they use to mix kerosene into the oil to thin it for the winter - Dyke's will cover that. Some used an engine heater (smug pot) to keep the motor warm over night - we now use a block heater.

A spare battery is a plus if you can not hand crank - just needs to be wired in such a way as to keep it charged. Trickle charger to keep the battery up over periods of disuse. Get a new / bigger battery - yours may be dying. Clean and lubricate all electrical connections. Battery cables must be of correct size especially as the weather gets colder.

When all else fails in starting your Maxwell - get in touch with Jack Benny - He knows all the tricks to owning one. He owned one until his dying day!

You will get the hang of owning an old car - this is a beautiful adventure just waiting to happen.

Just be careful if it is splash lubricated - hills can be tuff on bearings. Ask a T owner.

Ron

[hddennis]

" In the meantime, I changed the oil and I thought it hadn't been driven much recently, so it probably would be okay. Well, most of it was, but some of it was SLUDGE so it was good I did this."

To my old ears this was a problem sentence. Your car has no oil filter and a very marginal oil system. The last thing you want is sludge! Drop that pan and clean it out completely. It's not a hard job, just tedious as you will have to make your own cork gasket which is a skill we all have had to learn. Your motor will live much longer if you do this.

Howard Dennis

[RU22]

I think it was actually Rochester that kept that car running.

Always spin the motor with the started and then turn the spark on with the motor still spinning .... much easier on the starter.

And as many mention Always a AAA card and phone. Be sure to carry a club

address book too. I have met some very nice folks that just called for help.

Driving your car often help you know your car and helps it too.

If I go far there is also water for me too....... keeps me running well.

[Guest]

Thanks Rusty_OToole for remembering me. Al Brass had correct information in that the cars that are driven regularly give the least trouble.

My Grandfathers Pontiac broke an axle in 1949 at about 89,000 miles, he decided that it was not reliable anymore and never took it out of the city for 10 years. By the way he had the axle hammerwelded by an eighty year old blacksmith and it is still running true in the car at 498,600 miles.

In 1959 I started driving his car and it is still my daily driver. Only twice has it not brought me home. Once we burned out a connecting rod (at about 99,000 miles) and once the clutch pressure plate fell apart on the highway at about 60 mph at 350,000 miles. It probably had something to do with the fact that I had been pulling a hedge out of the ground the day before (couldn't pull it in first so I turned around and used reverse).

I change my oil and grease all 27 fittings every 3000 miles or three months (I don't use an oil filter because they are too scarce and too expensive and are only a partial flow anyway), repack the front wheels (original bearings) spring and fall, change the transmission and differential oil and the antifreeze every second year. Now that I use NKG or Bosch plugs I change then every second year and the points as required (usually about every three years).

I have had three differentials break on me but I suspect that it was because I had a leaking wheel seal and let the oil get too low.

Summer or winter (19 of them in Manitoba) I drive my car to and from work every day. I have driven it in Arizona at 103 plus and Manitoba at 54 minus. It always starts hot or cold and I have never had it stuck in snow or mud.

In the last couple of years we were living at the foot of a steep hill and at least four times when we had snow my wife's 98 Malibu could not get up because of the snow and ice so we both had to go in my car.

I would not hesitate to start out tomorrow morning to drive to anywhere in North America.

My regular toolkit includes a set of points, condenser, rotor, one fuse and a headlamp bulb. With these supplies I would go anywhere anytime. I drive the limit in the city and 55 mph on the highway for hours on end, except with spurts to 60 or 65 to pass. When travelling I usually drive between 400 and 500 miles per day.

The biggest thing is to have an operators and shop manual for your vehicle and to know and recognize the different noises so you can tell if something is going wrong.