Our future and the Board of Directors

[LINC400]

I think that the "we need to attract younger people" mindset is highly overrated. I bet in the 1960's, 1970's, 1980's, 1990's, etc. the average age of AACA and many other clubs as well were in the senior citizen age group.

Reaching out to educate younger people is fine. New technology such as online forums, facebook pages, emailed magazines, etc. are also fine. But I do not think that clubs should be changing what they stand for in order to allow modifieds, customs, or cars that would otherwise not have fit the club just to possibly attract new younger members. This will upset more current member than it will attract new younger members. I am nowhere near senior citizen age, and I like stock vehicles. There are very few clubs for stock vehicles only. So if they started allowing rods and customs, I would no longer be interested in them. There are way more clubs that cater to rods and customs than stock preservation. So if that is what some people are interested in, they have more than enough clubs to choose from without changing the ones that recognize stock preservation.

Also, I think the Chicago Museum of Natural History is a good example. It was built in 1893 and retained much of its original interior. Display cases were solid wood, mahogany or walnut or something, in excellent original condition. the museum itself was a historic artifact. Now they have painted many of the display cases in pink, purple, and bright blue with cartoon characters all over because they think they need to appeal to children more. Amazing that for 100 years, children could be educated and learn things there. But now they cannot unless it is presented in the form of a cartoon. I think this is a big mistake in that children will not be able to relate to anything unless it is presented in simplified cartoon form. In the same way, I think it is a mistake to change clubs just to maybe appeal to some younger members.

On the other hand, many of the people on this very forum state younger members are needed, but then insult post -1970's cars in stock form that some younger members collect as used junk - not real antiques.

[oldcarfudd]

We might keep in mind that the Horseless Carriage (pre-1916), Model T (Fords 1903-1927) and Model A (Fords 1928-1931) clubs are thriving. Not growing, but holding their own, with many tours all over the US and Canada and a healthy market for their cars even in this economy. And none of these clubs have many original owners as members, given that the last new Model A was sold 80 years ago. There's plenty of interest in cars that people don't remember from their youth, just as there's interest in Civil War reenactment from people who weren't born until more than a century after the Civil War ended. The interest may be latent; if so, we need to kindle it.

Gil Fitzhugh, Morristown, NJ

[FUHRMAN71]

Good topic and nice input - the reaction here shows just how much all of us are interested! That's a good thing!

I joined AACA at 17 - now I'm 42 and am Past President of two Regions, and I'm still one of the 'young guys!'

99% of the time I've felt welcome anywhere and everywhere in AACA-land. Once in a while I still get the "AACA is for retired people" comment. (Often that comes from someone who joined AFTER I did.)

Look for me at Hershey, I'll be the one with two 9 year olds, (4th generation car guys!) The hobby will be OK.

Andy Fuhrman :cool:

[gruberv8]

I think if we all have fun with our cars the "problem" of an aging hobbie will take care of itself. My wife and I were on an AACA tour this summer. We are 36. Everyone was super nice, friendly and fun. It didn't matter to my wife and I that we were younger than everybody else. We had an absolute blast. We learned a lot and met a lot of new friends. If all of the AACA is run like that tour, you will have people beating down the door to get a membership.

[Jim Bollman]

Our region was formed in 1974. I was 26 and had been a member of AACA for a few years already. I grew up in the hobby, being dragged out of bed before daylight to go to flea markets and car shows. Going to Hershey a couple of times in the 60s with my parents and another couple that owned a 15 Saxon and 15 T that I spent a lot of time under cleaning, since he drove them and showed them. Started going to Hershey on my own in 1971. When the region was formed I was the youngest by a fair magin. Still in the younger 1/4 of the club. Thinking back at who was in the region back in the early years I would guess the average age was probably mid 50s. Today probably late 60s would be the average age.

[NTX5467]

With all due respect, I'm not sure how AACA might define a "modified" vehicle. I'll readily admit that I have not researched that situation with respect to the AACA, but I also know that it can be a somewhat variable situation. In a more strict sense, if the vehicle might have some upgrades, even if they were optional factory equipment for that vehicle, then it's "modified" from how it was at the end of the assembly line. Plus some of the other things like "radial tires" and "halogen headlights", for good measure, which came later and many consider to be "safety items" now . . . or might the owners with those items, desiring to remain in the "stock" class, be trying to justify not having to change them back to "as produced, production" situations? Be that as it may.

Personally, I like original-type vehicles, even "unmolested" ones. I also can appreciate a well-executed custom or "street rod/machine" vehicle, too, although I might not really want to own one. I certainly appreciate the effort an owner might have taken in doing a faithful restoration on a vehicle . . . inspection stamps/marks and all other similar things . . . right down to the as-produced color (even if I might not like it). BUT I also like "incognito upgrades", when executed well . . . as electronic ignition or possibly one of the newer bolt-on, self-contained/self-tuning throttle body fuel injection units.

In an increasing number of situations, the street rod industry is now producing parts which fit older stock vehicles . . . early Ford body parts, replacement metal or stainless steel fuel tanks, and engine parts, to name a few I've seen in "Street Rodder" magazine vendor ads. If those particular vehicles weren't popular with the street rodders, I rather suspect many of these parts would not have been re-tooled for production. This is one area where the "modified" people are seeming to assist the "stock" vehicle owners, as both groups seek to pursue the vehicle hobby in their own particular orientations.

I don't know that you can paint the current younger generations with a broad brush with respect to their vehicular orientations or interests. We might not like what we see when we see them with their electronic devices in hand, playing games on it rather than seeing the scenery pass by on the Interstate highway. Or watch a DVD on a display on the back of a headrest or folding down from the headliner. But, remember the advice for travelling families back in the 1960s, about having reading material for the young 'uns, so they wouldn't get bored? Similar orientations . . . keep their minds busy so they might not ask "HOW much longer?????" Personally, I liked looking at the cars that were passing us or we were passing, or were other places along the route . . . plus the built-in geography lessons. It appears the "electronic diversions" have become the default mode of choice, though.

I strongly concur that the Internet (and related electronic media) have been a boon to the vehicle hobby. Older parts, information, help, and other related things are so much more readily available now. We thought that when we got magazines with particular vendor ads in them, then called and "flashed the plastic", that we were in high cotton . . . but that is so commonplace these days. Still, though, going to national level car events is where to really see things up close and personal, with respect to these vendors' wares. "The plastic" still works, too.

It's always been a somewhat common recommendation that if a vehicle owner has a liking for a particular brand and type of vehicle, that they find a club they're comfortable with and become an active member. Local OR National, or both in many cases. This gets them access to "the network", even if they have to pay two membership fees.

Just as in the '50s or thereabouts, the car hobby costs money. Most younger people need cars for transportation (and other things, too) . . . some just want transportation as others want more, just like it's been "forever". So, the age cycle has seemed to be that the younger person gets their driver's license and "their first car/truck". Then comes some way to legally support the new vehicle and such. Somewhere, usually, education and starting a family enter into things, which generally means the car hobby is not the priority it once might have been.

Then, by observation, as the kids get old enough and family finances permit, the car hobby is readdressed. Club membership happens, again, too. Or, once the kids are off at school, the car hobby fills the activity void. End result, when the car hobby comes back into a priority status, the person is about 30 years old and has a good enough job that "available funding" for a vehicle or to fix an existing vehicle exists. Or it could be later on in their 40s, or later. Just depends on their individual situation.

Many times the vehicles we now like were the same ones which we liked in high school, but couldn't have. I got out of high school in 1970, so that put me squarely in the muscle car era. I kept up with them when they were new, subscribing to several magazines back then, but this also put me in the same era when many of the 1950s+ cars were "used cars", too. As model years progressed, I still kept up with the new stuff, too. Back then, about the onlyu car shows around where I was were new car shows in the nearby metro areas. The only exposure to big-time shows was through magazines. Later, as cruise-ins proliferated in the metro areas nearby, I made some friends and we went to them each weekend. Still not a member of any car club, though, just enthusiasts and spectators. This was also a learning period for what others were doing to their vehicles and with what.

I didn't join a national car club until later. By this time, it was obvious that the best information network was in the national car clubs. Yet there were some great local networks in the local clubs, too. Going to weekend cruises, meeting people, asking about their cars, etc. helped a lot too. I made many friends during that period, plus joining a marque-specific local club that had a great wealth of knowledge in it.

We can advocate getting younger people involved in the hobby as much as we might, but until THEY see the value of that, they'll usually remain on the fringes of things. Still, it's highly important to make them aware of the club's presence all during that time. They might have a car which will fit well within the particular club, but until they need YOU, even if it's just for a simple question, no club membership will happen. I've also seen older car owners, who religiously purchased a particular brand of vehicle, understood what made that brand of vehicle better for them, drove and enjoyed it greatly, but never looked to see if there might be a car club they could join. Not on their radar screen, for whatever reason. Nor were car magazines, typically, on their radar screen. Which leads back to what I mentioned earlier about advertising in mainstream national media, rather than just in vehicle enthusiast publications (where you expect to find such national car club ads). Perhaps somebody might have a '66 Chrysler 300 convertible they've had since new, keeping it "cherry" all of these years, but they would not know about the Walter P. Chrysler Club unless they might see an ad for it in "Parade" or "USA Today", or similar. Or a similar ad for the AACA, CCCA, or whomever. Or possibly some media coverage of a local, regional, or national show event.

Therefore, in addition to clarifying what a "modified" vehicle is, we might also need to clarify what "younger member" might be, too. In this case, "younger" can be a variable and point-of-reference situation.

Back when the "younger member" issue came up in the BCA, a program was configured at the national meet level (with the assistance of Al Storrs, as I recall), I wondered if the younger member we ought to be seeking was "young" or "later-life young". I inquired with the then-editor of a local AACA region newsletter on this subject. His reply was that as to the people who came to their meets and tours, "younger" usually meant "grand kids" who came with their grand parents and "later-life young" would mean "45+ years old" (or thereabouts). That scenario seems to be very reality-based to me.

In our local Mopar club, the younger members (many times with their parents, initially) would join. Later, they'd get married or go off to school, to return several years later, still interested in the club. Then came "the absence" until the family was stabilized and their kids were getting older, followed by THEIR family becoming active and involved club members. As an officer, back then, seeing this cycle repeat itself many times made me feel good about the club and verification that we were "doing something right".

In later years, as the Mopar hobby had proliferated so much, some of our members were accomplished drag racers with their generally-stock Mopars (i.e., muscle car era). The Front Wheel Drive Mopar enthusiasts now had a local chapter of the Shelby Dodge Auto Club. Some of our members approached them about racing with us at the Muscle Car Club Challenge races. Their operatives thanked our members for the invitation, respectfully declining, but also termed our group "A bunch of old men driving antique rear wheel drive cars . . ." although our average age (at that time) was in the middle 40s or so. Age is relative!

Just some thoughts and observations . . .

NTX5467

[R W Burgess]

..........termed our group "A bunch of old men driving antique rear wheel drive cars . . ." although our average age (at that time) was in the middle 40s or so. Age is relative!

NTX5467

:) You're right NTX! You're only as old as you act.

It never ceases to amaze me as I travel across this AACA country of ours, how many members act crazy like me. I enjoy carrying on with young people in their 20's and younger. They look at me strange sometimes, but I'm here to tell the world that 60+ is NOT OLD!

You're only as old as you act. Having fun in the hobby and connecting with others is special to Gloria and myself.

I e-mailed a friend just yesterday, telling her to break all of the mirrors in her home. That way, she can feel young again. It's all in the mind!

Wayne

[poci1957]

With all due respect, I'm not sure how AACA might define a "modified" vehicle. I'll readily admit that I have not researched that situation with respect to the AACA, but I also know that it can be a somewhat variable situation. In a more strict sense, if the vehicle might have some upgrades, even if they were optional factory equipment for that vehicle, then it's "modified" from how it was at the end of the assembly line. Plus some of the other things like "radial tires" and "halogen headlights", for good measure, which came later and many consider to be "safety items" now . . . or might the owners with those items, desiring to remain in the "stock" class, be trying to justify not having to change them back to "as produced, production" situations? Be that as it may.

This should not be all that hard to define but apparently it is and I think can give people the wrong idea about authentic cars. Others can correct me but I understand the definition point in AACA is as delivered by the dealer and factory accessories are accepted but also judged for quality and authenticity.

Should be easy enough. But with Corvettes and musclecars came matching numbers and documentation to elevate the value of the best examples. I think with that level of scrutiny many people now think that if a car is not in that class then why bother with it? By such definition a car with a replacement engine block or transmission is now not original and devalued. This is by nature exclusionary and no wonder people think it is elitist. Popular knowledge of these lofty standards has probably driven more people to street rodding than anything else.

I would argue that the AACA is extremely IN-clusive in it's judging in that you can bring any car, truck, van, motorcycle, or whatever 25 years or older AS LONG AS it looks original. No one will research your VIN, check your casting numbers or your paint code as long as the car looks authentic. If you have an aftermarket battery or stereo hidden from view, no problem. For me the whole authenticity mindset is the historical appearance of everything and the understanding that we are not about monster stereos, 22" wheels and 350 Chevy engine swaps. It is not that you will be shunned if you do not have a certified build sheet to prove your 1969 Charger 500 is the ONE OF ONE built painted B5 blue with a white vinyl top and still has the paper tags on it's original shock absorbers.

In fact the AACA CANNOT be that critical because it could never be prepared to judge all that data on 100 years of cars of every make in the world. And that should be attractive to people, not scare them away. Todd C

Edited September 28, 2011 by poci1957 (see edit history)

[john2dameron]

For several years I held car shows at the local elementary/middle school. I insisted that the shows be held on a school day at the school so every student had the opportunity to see the cars. We provided lunch for the people that brought cars to show and tried to have prizes for every car owner. I would set up tables with about 200 of my diecast model cars and encouraged the students to bring their own model cars and show them. Students helped me with the setting up, getting cars parked and doing the paper work. The teachers all scheduled a time to bring their class out to see the cars. The students would look at the cars and then make a beeline to the models and you could see and feel their interest peak. You could tell by the chatter that this was the highlight of the day for them. I also raised funds to purchase books about automobiles to put in the school libraries. One year I taught a series of classes about automobile history to sixth grade students. The classes were taught with slides and models and from my private collection of car books and photos. The students interviewed family members and brought 2 stories each to school and I put them all into a booklet and each student received a copy. Last month I met a 21 year old college student at a show that aspires to become an automobile designer. We met for lunch last week and we visited 3 hours discussing automobiles and drawings from his portfolio. To sum up, young people are interested in cars just as we were when we were kids. Will we take the time to encourage their interest?

[Steve Moskowitz]

Wayne and gang. We are reading these comments and welcome the concern. A bit of a busy week to give you a lengthy reply but as Wayne said, we are working very hard for the future of the car hobby. There is no quit in us. I keep telling people, resignation to the "graying" of the hobby is a surefire way to ensure we could lose the hobby as we know it today. One of my favorite expressions is as follows:

I must do something always accomplishes a lot more than "something must be done"!

Stolen from soneone far smarter than me!

[Restorer32]

I live 45 miles from Hershey. I also live 45 miles from Carlisle. Just this week while casually watching TV I have seen 4 local new spots about the great Carlisle Auto Show. Almost never do I see ANYTHING re Hershey. If you asked 100 locals here if they know about the Carlisle event virtually all would reply in the affirmative. Ask 100 if they know about AACA and /or Hershey and you will get blank stares from 95 of them. AACA does NOT do an adequate job of publicizing itself. If folks less than an hours' drive from Hershey are unaware of the AACA how can we expect young people 1000 miles away to know anything about it. As good an idea as the AACA Youth program is it seems to me that it primarily is directed to offspring of AACA members, is it not? When I begin seeing news spots on TV a week before Hershey (and other National Meets) I will believe that we are beginning to take youth outreach seriously.

[Steve Moskowitz]

Carlisle spends a lot of money advertising their local events and getting free publicity with the media thanks to those expenditures. You might be forgetting that they are a for-profit business and the gate is huge to them. Also, Hershey is once a year yet Carlisle has a dozen or so events. You are not comparing apples to apples. As a non-profit part of our mission is to allow the public in for free at all our meets, including Hershey. It would be costly to the region or national club to pay for TV, radio or newsprint spots. We have had national and local coverage already though thanks to our press releases and the fact people like Hemmings promote "Hershey".

Since we partnered on the Operation Ignite program with Hagerty Insurance the vast majority of the participants are NOT the children of AACA members. They are schools and boy scout troops.

AACA sends out press releases on a regular basis. It is up to the media to decide what they run and what they do not run. Also, once again we have a national TV show filming at the fall meet. Chasing Classic Cars.

I understand your frustration as this area is dominated by Carlisle's great job in promotion. However, you do not get to see what goes on in the rest of the country on a regular basis.

[Guest Dick Whittington]

As an attendee of both events, Carlisle is all about how many vendor spaces they can sell and how many people they get thru the gate. They do work with their vendors to assist them, but the quality of what you see is not near as good as Hershey. If I want tee shirts, sunglasses, plastic cups, or jewelery, I will frequent Carlisle. If I am looking for very nice cars, tons of rare parts (although the pickings are a lot slimmer than they used to be) I will be at Hershey.

As Steve stated, it is apples and potatos when you compare the two, not even close enough alike to be apples and oranges.

[1937hd45]

Steve, Chasing Classic Cars is a great TV show, I only wish it was on a cable channel I get, the few shows I did get to see were far and above your typical "Old Car Show".

[Restorer32]

My point was, and still is, that the AACA could do more to publicize it's events if we truly want to keep our membership growing. My Uncle was Program Director of WGAL TV in Lancaster for many years and did a spot on Hershey almost every year. Since his retirement I have seen little if any mention of the event. In most cases there is NO cost involved in these spots. Many times all it takes is a call to the local TV outlet with a suggestion of an interesting story. I watched a reporter walking down an aisle at Carlisle, he bought a pack of socks actually. Surely AACA has something as interesting to show?

[Steve Moskowitz]

Jeff, and you think we do not contact local media? Getting the spots is all dependent on what news is going on that day and what the program director wants to put on. We had a press conference last Monday and President Bush showed up at the Lodge. We were second fiddle. Youe point is well taken but please do not think we do not try!

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Bob- Chasing Classic Cars is coming to regular cable; supposedly this fall. At least that is what Wayne Carini told our region as he was nice enough to host a monthly meeting for us at his place in CT. Supposedly this fall but not so sure now that we are well into the TV season...

[Restorer32]

I watched Chasing Classic Cars yesterday, maybe 5 episode, hey it was a chilly, rainy day. Best true antique car show on Tv for my money but I was a bit disappointed that he characterized Pebble Beach as marking "basically the end of the antique car season". Has he done an episode revolving around Hershey? I'm sure I haven't seen every episode so maybe he has. More shows like that is what we need to promote the hobby.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Could not think of a better way to kill a couple hours if the Pats are not on...

Dick Shappy is coming out with a show also, teaser can be seen on his website. I do not know what network will carry it. Looks like it may be a mix "Chasing Classic Cars" in that his collection, restorations, etc. are squarely in the Antique and Classic mix, but I also think it will have some family/staff antics ALA "Hardcore Pawn" to some degree as well. Still, I am looking forward to this one. Met Mr. Shappy a couple times and he is always very cordial, and happy to talk at length about any of his truly fantastic cars.

This may have been suggested already but what about partnering with Boy Scouts (Girl Scouts as well for that matter) to promote an "Antique Auto" badge? AACA could provide guidelines and perhaps some materials, and qualifications could be a mix of research, hands on, maybe working at a show, attending a meeting as a guest, etc.

There is an auto badge, I believe, but not an antique auto badge for Boy Scouts.

Edited October 3, 2011 by Steve_Mack_CT
Added idea (see edit history)

[LINC400]

My point was, and still is, that the AACA could do more to publicize it's events if we truly want to keep our membership growing. My Uncle was Program Director of WGAL TV in Lancaster for many years and did a spot on Hershey almost every year. Since his retirement I have seen little if any mention of the event. In most cases there is NO cost involved in these spots. Many times all it takes is a call to the local TV outlet with a suggestion of an interesting story. I watched a reporter walking down an aisle at Carlisle, he bought a pack of socks actually. Surely AACA has something as interesting to show?

Hopefully there is more to AACA than Hershey. Hershey is great if you live near there. But many people live in the midwest and on the west coast. I have been there once in all the years I have been interested in antique cars. It is nice, but will not be a regular event for me considering the distance, and the fact there there are many good shows much, much closer to me. I bet many people from the midwest and west coast have never even been to Hershey. So it is kind of a turn off if Hershey is promoted as the only big event, and you can never get to it.

[poci1957]

Regrettably, Linc400 is right that in the midwest Hershey is not even on the radar for most local hobbyists.

In my formative years in the early 1980s I knew what Hershey was from reading Old Car Weekly and other magazines that were then the chief point of contact to the hobby. They all covered Hershey and other events and the reader could consider attending said event next time. Now I think local car people get their contact from TV (or the internet) and do not read the magazines. I know casual car people (not bidding on cars) who yearn to go to Barrett Jackson in January as their's is now the WORLDS GREATEST COLLECTOR CAR EVENT!!!!! I am shocked myself, but that is how it is here.

BUT as Steve correctly points out, how do you fund promotion of an event governed by a local region and with no admission charge? Todd C

[Guest Klayfish]

Sorry, I didn't get to read all the posts in detail, as I'm doing this over my lunch at work. Not sure if I'd fit the criteria of "younger generation". I'm 39 right now, but don't feel a day over 25 (well, maybe a few days over).

Funny I just saw this thread today. I found this forum a few months ago, but haven't had a lot of time to read it, etc... Just yesterday I said to my wife that I wanted to make time to join the AACA as an active member and try to attend the local club meetings. I'm about 90 minutes outside of Hershey. I love old cars, and always have. I love them all...from the '80's stuff I grew up with, all the way back to the beginning of the automobile.

I would love to do what I can to help preserve the hobby. Not only to keep it around for future generations, but I would love nothing more than to learn anything and everything I can about cars. Both from a history perspective and a hands on repairing perspective (if you've read my other threads about teaching myself to fix cars, I have little experience).

My free time is really limited, but I'm hoping to be able to contribute whatever I can. There are guys like us out there, just have to reach them.

[Guest ChrisSummers]

This is modified in part from a diatribe I posted on another club's website.

I am 22 years old; I have been an AACA Student Member since longtime national judge, and personal friend and mentor, Jim Lackey gave me my first membership when I was 18. Since then I've studied and graduated with my English Education degree and am licensed to reach grades 5-12 in WV. As a result of this I had plenty of educational psychology classes and spent hundreds of hours working with the age groups that we are trying to pull into a love of these cars.

I firmly, solidly believe that there is no "magic bullet" solution for the "greying" problem with car clubs. Membership of most clubs is growing older because the majority of our cars are firmly attached to what the members remember growing up from their youth...just as I know plenty of 40-year-olds attached to muscle cars and plenty of 20-somethings who dream of Lamborghini Countachs. Even I - a first generation member, from my family, of all clubs to which I belong - only became interested in my favorite 1930s classics because I inherited a love of old cars from a grandfather.

I discussed with many of my high school students my hobby, mentioning of course my clubs. I never met a kid, from 7th to 12th grade, who really cared about cars built prior to the 1970s. They think they're pretty and cool, but they don't feel a connection since the cars are big and expensive and out of touch from their generation. They like the cars well enough but not enough to pay the cost of a club membership.

The fact is, we can look for a silver bullet solution all we want, but the problem is not with our club. People join a club (regardless of make) because they feel a connection to the cars and that connection unites them into a group. They join because they love the cars and want the camaraderie and support from others who love the cars. Today we just aren't finding a lot of people who have that connection. It isn't something that can be created or forced by any flashy event...it is something that one has to learn.

If you want younger generations involved, let kids ride in your car or at least sit inside it. Take time to talk with new members, introduce yourself, and let them sit inside or go for a ride, too. Be open and generous with your car, and keep a sense of humor about it.

Connections can only be built through one-on-one contact, and it is my personal opinion that such contact is the ONLY solid, durable, reliable way to boost membership in any old car-related organization.

For the record, 99% of the people I've met in the old car hobby have treated this 22-year-old enthusiast, 50 years younger than the majority of them, like "one of the guys" and welcome me with open arms. One of my life mottos is "Those who matter don't mind, and those who mind don't matter."

[buick man]

57 years young and my anti-aging doctors assure me I have at least 57 more years to go! .... or was it 57 more sessions to go? ... err, I will get back to on that.

Edit: Oh, i forgot to mention, ( I must be getting forgetful ),

It is important to realize that to maintain a healthy membership roll call that includes the younger set, we must take all measures to help stabilize and to keep the middle class healthy and vibrant in this country and from going down the tubes as they are getting a lot of help with that as of late, or the only car shows that generation will be going to are in museums or at pebble beach. - Can you say pooh-pon?

Edited October 6, 2011 by buick man (see edit history)