Time to say I told you so

[Guest BJM]

:eek:whoaaa, did I say that??? :confused: I had a rough day at work yesterday guy's, dealing with a bunch of whining construction contractors and then come on here and read this. I really appreciate most of what everyone has to say. Some of it is the ugly truth and we need to be paying serious attention to it. So, sorry, and you're really not mambie pambies.... :cool: ?

Actually that's not an issue. Redirection & criticism is never a bad thing if we can all understand the issues. At least that's what I tell the wife. Now you know why the garage is equipped like a bomb shelter.

[poci1957]

Well everyone, if it makes you feel better the Pontiac Oakland Club and probably most old car clubs are also having problems with aging and/or shrinking membership, rising prices, shakey member involvement and attracting new and younger members.

A root of the problem could be that we as a society now have much less involvement in clubs and groups of all kinds. I think instead of seeing groups as democratic institutions with active member involvement (our club, run by us), many of us now see them as organizations run by other people (them) and our involvement is more passive and casual. And that is for those who actually do join. Look around at home. Civic groups, fraternal organizations, churches, bowling leagues, etc are all concerned with fewer people who care to join.

Though I am a Pontiac guy I read the Buick forums with interest because the Buick/Olds/Pontiac experience is similar. We three are the other, "middle children" of GM and must try harder. Harder to find cars, parts, and especially support from like-minded enthusiasts. That is for me why I thought the Pontiac club would be important, so I was not 100% isolated as BJM said he often feels (I do too). Several years ago I went to the Pontiac National Convention and there were probably 20 1957s in attendance, which had to be a record. For one day I was not a party of one, all by myself, and it felt great. THAT is the benefit of national clubs. So we should ask how can we get that feeling out for more than one day?

IMO that feeling of mutual interest is where the older faction and the fans of corporate 1980s and 1990s models can have common ground. But then we divide up into interest groups and pretty soon the older crowd has become very cliquish and the younger, if they have joined at all, are shying away. How can we get the older members to share their time and skills and the younger to share their energy and enthhusiasm without conflicting with each other? THEN maybe we will have built value in the $35-$50 membership fee. Todd

[HurstGN]

NTX, the ideas you present for M-A-L were put forth in the past, and summarily shot down. I presented tham as an "Associate" level of membership.

And according to the wording presented here:

We would all love for the dues to be less, heck zero, but the BOD has a fiduciary responsibility to keep the club solvent. What no one wants are the dues to being so low that the club runs itself in to bankruptcy and out of business, there is no bail out available for us. Many items were cut from the budget, but there is only so much you can cut and provided the level of value the majority of the membership demands in return for their dues. Now that the dues have been increased we have to increase the value to the existing as well as potential members.

So what PRODUCTIVE ideas do the members have to add value to the club?

Saying dues should be less is not productive as it will cause the club to cease to exist. It is time to move beyond that.

Well, I'd think the idea, M-A-L, Associate, whatever, is pretty much off the table. The thing I have a problem with is the statement

Now that the dues have been increased we have to increase the value to the existing as well as potential members.

... doesn't this pretty much put the cart before the horse? If the value were there, you'd have people beating down your door to give you money and become members. Since the general public wasn't beating down the door at $35, it seems the increase to $50 just my have disconnected the doorbell, removed the knocker and taped over the peephole. OK, maybe not that bad, but you need to listen to the winds of change here. So what are the plans to increase the value? I would hope the plan was in place before the dues increase. And if the dues increase was to simply keep the BCA solvent, then what will the cost be to increase the value to existing and new members? If the increased value could have been done for free, then it should have been done when the dues were at $35. That would make the new membership selling point easier. I attended one BOD meeting years ago, and I recall discussion on where to deposit a substantial sum of BCA funds. I guess that was all withdrawn and used up prior to the Dues increase? Oh, sorry, I'm being unproductive again.

As pointed out before, there are on-line clubs and some are quite successful. Roberta can tell you how many of those Stage 1 folks she'll be seeing soon are on-line folks. The on-line clubs are mostly free, and you can get alot of good information, new friends, and even organized meets from them. Yea, they don't have a Bugle, and they not only survive, some grow in size over time. I met some really nice people that way over the years. Didn't cost me in the process.

I'm just driving to the point of something's gotta change to keep the BCA alive and strong. We're not getting any younger...witness the old guy over there. Geez, he's adopted the name "old". (Sorry, just making a point).

Just my .02 worth. Still need to decide if I'll part with the other $49.98 next year.

[John_Maine]

I think part of the problem is that people haven't been buying Buicks new in the numbers they did prior to the mid-80's. Buick has basically lost a whole generation of buyers. All US makers have lost market share so it's not just a Buick problem. But, if you're not selling as many new cars, you don't have as much interest in older cars of the same make. A new Buick that you're proud to own might make you want an old Buick and thus become a member of the BCA. I agree though, that the Bugle is worth the price of admission.

[Guest wildcat465]

and uhhh, next 54 I buy... I think I'm gonna name her Sue....

Lamar, name her Bill or George, anything but Sue!

Holy cow, I have a laptop crash, stay a way a little while and the gloves came off again!

No social group is going to cater to everyone's exact interests. For me, I focus on what I enjoy. I even attempt to gain more interest in what does not interest me as much. I will however, do whatever I can to never demean others on what they like. I am sure many would never have the exact same interests that I have. We share an interest in a marque that has been around for over 100 years, therefore there is a wide amount of interests within this group. It is too easy to point at what you do not like as to why membership growth is down. The fact the BCA is still bringing in new members is encouraging. I know that some have been lost, thats normal. The collector car hobby as a whole is shrinking right now. It may grow again in the future, maybe not.

In the mean time, I am putting all of my effort into getting two cars ready for the drive to Ames. I have saved for two years to do this. You can find me at the judges training, wandering the showfield and swap meet, checking in cars at the Saturday car show, and at a meeting or two during the day. In the evening you will find me in Jewell on Friday night or most likely the area between the two major hotels on the other days cooking something on my portable grille and consuming some cold adult beverages with I hope many friends I have met over the years. Anyone is welcome to join me, but we are going to have a good time talking about what we like rather than what we don't.

That's why I stay and encourage others to join. The fact that there are many other things I do not do or enjoy as much is just a bonus when you really give it some thought.

[Thriller]

BCA won't allow me to be a member and not receive the Bugle.

I have way too many periodicals as it is. I would agree to be a paying member if Mike Book sent my Bugle somewhere else OR in lieu of the Bugle, I got a membership roster.

Bryan,

My question may not have conveyed what I was thinking. If the only difference is whether or not you get the periodical, why not stay a member and continue to get it, just for spreading around. Without going out of your way, there are probably a dozen places a year that you could leave a copy - work, doctor, barber, repair shop, etc. A doctor's office, for instance, can be pretty tough to find something a guy will consider reading. The more folks that flip through one, the greater the chances of additional members joining.

I'm not trying to shove this down your throat. I know the feeling about too many periodicals...I have technical magazines going back nearly 20 years. I just can't get off my butt to get rid of them (I'm certain Suzanne is going to take care of it one of these days though....). It just seems to me that you could take a quick flip through to keep up on things like club news, treasurer's reports, etc. and then pass it on. Of course, if my sense of logic doesn't mesh with yours, that's fine too...diversity is the spice of life.

Paul - well said.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Right on, Paul. Right on.

Ben

[MrEarl]

Bryan,

If the only difference is whether or not you get the periodical,

If I hear the Buick Club of America's official publication disrespectfully referred to once more as a simple "periodical" I'm gonna have to ask somebody to step outside. As Archie use to say "that really grapes on my nerves". Jake my friend, what the heck is the big deal with simply getting it in the mail, flipping through it to see if there are any items of interest (and I know you have found a few because you have commented very favorably about them on here) and then like Derek suggested dropping it off somewhere. I'd suggest perhaps a Nursing Home, KNOWING there will be someone there that would absolutely love to have it. Personally I just slide the porta file box out from under my bed and store it along with every other copy since 1966.

(Just kiddin about the "steppin outside" part, I'm too old and would probably get my butt kicked these days)

Paul, some good words there. BTW, whatcha gonna be cookin. Can I bring somethin?

Edited July 17, 2010 by MrEarl
add smiley face to title (see edit history)

[Barney Eaton]

As I get prepared for Ames, reading this string of post is more than confusing. There are about as many opinions as there are posters. Everyone seems to have their idea of where the BCA is going wrong and how it can/could be fixed.

If people would show up for the Board meeting or read the minutes, there might be a better understanding of what has been done and why. As a Board member, I have been trying to preserve what has been accomplished since this club was formed in 1966. Raising the dues was not easy until we sat in the General Membeship meeting and heard the input from those members that chose to attend.

There are also comments posted here about the BCA being more interested in perfect cars than just nice Buicks. The factual response to that is the registration for the Ames meet.

Out of 353 Buicks registered, 157 are entered in the 400 point judging, that show me that more than half the people bringing Buicks to show are not that concerned about the "perfect car" and are bringing their Buick just because.... and have entered it in the Driven, Archival, Modified, or Display catagory.

I don't know how this compares with 10 or 15 years ago but I suspect there are fewer cars

(percentage) entered in the 400 point judging today.

My Board term expires come Ames.... I did not run again for several reasons.

One being that as a Board member you do not have time to see the cars. I also judge and when you subtract the time spent at a national meet (by a Board member) on "official" business, judges training, judges breakfast, judging, etc..... there is just no time to see the cars and talk to the people.

[bhclark]

Barney,

I for one applaud your efforts as a board member and thank you for your service in this thankless job.

I invite anyone criticizing the efforts of the board to please run for election!

"You can please all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time"

[Thriller]

Out of 353 Buicks registered, 157 are entered in the 400 point judging, that show me that more than half the people bringing Buicks to show are not that concerned about the "perfect car" and are bringing their Buick just because.... and have entered it in the Driven, Archival, Modified, or Display catagory.

Well, 10-15 years ago, there was no Driven nor Modified classes, so we can't really make that comparison. That being said, I understand the Driven class has been growing generally since its inception (in 2006?).

Barney, I am with Brian in being thankful for your service to the club.

[The Old Guy]

Barney

I also thank you for the time you have devoted to the BCA. You have been the voice of reason and are to be complimented for everything you have done.

[Guest wildcat465]

BTW, whatcha gonna be cookin. Can I bring somethin?

Lamar, I am bringing all the tools, I got plenty of gas (many others will back up that claim), you bring it, I will cook it. I can already tell you are one of the many I will enjoy spending time with in Ames (despite what Derek says about you). :D:D

[Thriller]

Hmm...I'm beginning to think I'm being picked on...I have enough neuroses already please and thank you.

[BUICK RACER]

But you know, I have alot of Buick Friends, some have belonged to the BCA at one time or another, they are mostly younger than me or exactly the same age, and are no longer members, why would that be???????????

I really can't find a reason to convince anyone to join the BCA unless they have a real interest in older Buicks, I'm sorry, but I don't see any reason to be a member, unless you want to buy a nice Buick already over-restored or get a trophy at a National Meet, why not let older BCA members be allowed to be chapter members in their local without having to pay for BCA dues? It's already happening, so let's just make it a real deal?

Let's see if anyone reads this, and agrees, besides you know who!

[stealthbob]

I am 37....I got my first Buick 1 year ago, so I guess that makes me the new generation. I'm also an Internet vet and i know what I am reading is NOT the common voice of the BCA community.

These type forums give a very large voice to the loud and vocal minority....however, be that as it may at the grass roots level....The personal friend to friend level....this hobby is thriving as I see it.

Does the Bugle/BCA membership cost more than some other achem....periodicals?

You bet, but it certainly represents more than the text and images on it's pages. For that I will pay for gladly.

....pffft Its the cost of a tank of gas once a year. :confused:

[rivgs]

But you know, I have alot of Buick Friends, some have belonged to the BCA at one time or another, they are mostly younger than me or exactly the same age, and are no longer members, why would that be???????????

I really can't find a reason to convince anyone to join the BCA unless they have a real interest in older Buicks, I'm sorry, but I don't see any reason to be a member, unless you want to buy a nice Buick already over-restored or get a trophy at a National Meet, why not let older BCA members be allowed to be chapter members in their local without having to pay for BCA dues? It's already happening, so let's just make it a real deal?

Let's see if anyone reads this, and agrees, besides you know who!

:eek: Did I really just read this correctly?

Does Buicktown really have members that are not BCA members? Even when this is spelled out in the chapters charter as strictly "verboten"?

I hope not. That would be a very reckless ( not to mention stupid ) thing to do.

As for the older members not paying dues thing. Where do we draw the line as to who gets the deal and who doesn't? Length of time in the club? age of the member? You would NEVER be able to satisfy everyone ( I don't think you could even get a majority to agree ).

If I wasn't a member, I would not have met a HUGE number of people that I now know. People I see at a National or Regional meet-it is like a homecoming every single time. I would not have met you Roberta, I would not have gotten a tour of Joe "the old guy" 's garage ( highly recommended if you get an invite ) I would not have been to Harold and Renee Calhon's home and seen all the cool stuff in their collection. I would not have seen the GM heritage collection, Driven Silver Arrow III ( 20 feet-but I drove it! ). And this is just things in the Flint area. I have relatives around Flint-so I have been there for non Buick things. All because I am a BCA member.

I have experianced more fun, met the nicest people and learned things when I have been around BCA members.

If these are not reasons to be a member, I do not know what is.:confused:

The forum is great, but frankly I would not be able to pick many of you out of a crowd of two because you are an avatar and not a face that I have had the pleasure to meet. " Face to Face" is still the best way.

Yes, things are tough right now and some people are making the choice to not renew or join. I can respect their decision but I don't understand why they would want to give up the potential to meet new people and have a great time for only $50.00? I am NOT a rich guy, but I have my priorities and having fun is a big one.

You only go around once on the ride called "life", so you might as well make the most of it.

Looking forward to seeing everyone in Ames and missing the ones who do not make it.

[Guest Dans 77 Limited]

Look I never said I didnt like the club . In fact even though I ***** about dues increases .... Im still here arent I ? Ive met some of the greatest people in the country in my chapter . True friends that will help you with anything anytime you need them . If i have a problem with what I see the club doing I as a member have a right , and if I really care ..... a duty to point that out and try to correct it before it does damage. Now in a few posts some people seem to have a problem with that ........too damn bad heres a quarter call someone who cares cause I sure as hell dont . I think the last dues increase was a bad idea and Im not shy about it now and I wont be shy about it in the future. I know its just my opinion but I do believe that when weve gained only 22 new memberships in the last month the facts just may be backing me up. When youve got a guy who bleeds Buick like Joe Taubitz telling you "Its too rich for my blood" YOURE DOING SOMETHING WRONG. When Ive got perspective members saying its too much to join ...... YOURE DOING SOMETHING WRONG. When your new members listing goes from 2 pages of small type to half a double spaced page of larger type ..... YOURE DOING SOMETHING WRONG. Someone suggested that if I didnt like the way things are being run to run for the BOD. Gee.... never heard that one before:rolleyes:. So Ill reply (once again) to that the same way I have replied the umpteen times this has been suggested before .

I must attend board meetings to hold a position.

Problem number 1.) I dont like to fly . I cant think of a reason good enough in the world to put my fat butt in an airplane seat. Which leads to problem number 2.

Problem number 2.) I get exactly 8 vacation days a year. I work. Im not retired , Im not wealthy and I dont see retirement anywhere in the immediate future. Most 46 year olds are in the same boat. So after referring to problem 1 does anyone here really expect me to take what olittle vacation time I do have and spend it driving to a place where I get to sit in a room for an hour or two and then turn around and drive back home again cause I need to be back to work ?

As have stated in the past if anyone really wants me on the BOD that bad then heres whats going to have to happen :

ALL BOD meetings will be held in Pittsburgh Pennsylvania.

ALL BOD meetings will have to be held on the weekends . Advance notice MUST be given as I do frequently work on saturdays. The other alternative would be to hold them after business hours during the week.

Now if all of you who feel Im not being fair by criticizing the board of directors while not joining the board of directors are willing to accomodate the needs listed above then Im your man !!!!!!! If not then I guess your stuck with things the way they are now.

Dan

[Guest wildcat465]

.

[rivgs]

Dan,

So, what I gather from your reply, it's my way or the highway-I don't give damn what others think. Sorry Dan, the board members have to think of the entire club and what needed and still needs to keep it running. As it has been stated many times, this was not an easy decision and we knew that here were going to be some unhappy people. If the dues were not raised, the club would have run out of money, pure and simple. We are looking into ideas to lower costs ( many good ideas came from the forum )and hopefully there will not be another raise in quite some time.

Your idea of lowering the dues simply will not work. Face it, that is reality.

The BCA was a sinking ship, the dues raise was plugging the holes. Now we are starting the bailing process. I do not think that we are "doing something wrong".

[Guest Skyking]

Look I never said I didnt like the club . In fact even though I ***** about dues increases .... Im still here arent I ? Ive met some of the greatest people in the country in my chapter . True friends that will help you with anything anytime you need them . If i have a problem with what I see the club doing I as a member have a right , and if I really care ..... a duty to point that out and try to correct it before it does damage. Now in a few posts some people seem to have a problem with that ........too damn bad heres a quarter call someone who cares cause I sure as hell dont . I think the last dues increase was a bad idea and Im not shy about it now and I wont be shy about it in the future. I know its just my opinion but I do believe that when weve gained only 22 new memberships in the last month the facts just may be backing me up. When youve got a guy who bleeds Buick like Joe Taubitz telling you "Its too rich for my blood" YOURE DOING SOMETHING WRONG. When Ive got perspective members saying its too much to join ...... YOURE DOING SOMETHING WRONG. When your new members listing goes from 2 pages of small type to half a double spaced page of larger type ..... YOURE DOING SOMETHING WRONG. Someone suggested that if I didnt like the way things are being run to run for the BOD. Gee.... never heard that one before:rolleyes:.

Dan

Amen Dan!

From a previous long time BCA member

[pphil]

Dan,

So, what I gather from your reply, it's my way or the highway-I don't give damn what others think. Sorry Dan, the board members have to think of the entire club and what needed and still needs to keep it running. As it has been stated many times, this was not an easy decision and we knew that here were going to be some unhappy people. If the dues were not raised, the club would have run out of money, pure and simple. We are looking into ideas to lower costs ( many good ideas came from the forum )and hopefully there will not be another raise in quite some time.

Your idea of lowering the dues simply will not work. Face it, that is reality.

The BCA was a sinking ship, the dues raise was plugging the holes. Now we are starting the bailing process. I do not think that we are "doing something wrong".

that is not how i read his reply........

he just stated what it would take for him to be a board member........

I have said this before so i will say it again

I joined a few years back

when i joined i did not know of a local chapter

I joined to support the brand and to get a BCA sticker for my car..

I never recieved my welcome packet (strike one)

I never was contacted by any local chapter

after my name address etc came out in the bugle i started recieving unsolicided mailings from companys and private indivduals trying to sell me stuff for my car...

when this was brought up I was told to email the BCA with details as the BCA dont sell their members list......

well you dont need to sell whats free all my info was printed in the bugle

I emailed the BCA with details of who was soliciting sales and I was never contacted back(strike two)

So all I got (or got )out of the BCA was the bugle

It is a nice magazine but i would read it in 1 hour and be done

(accually my last 2 issues i never opened)

when i joined it was 35.00 a year and they raised it to 40.00

that was (strike three) i was out at that time .......

the quote the "the BCA was a sinking ship" is incorrect in my own personal opinion ..........

the BCA is still sinking just slower

scott

Edited July 18, 2010 by pphil (see edit history)

[bhclark]

If you don't WANT to be a BCA and local chapter member, fine, but anyone who says they can't afford $50 a year for dues to support everything the BCA does, shouldn't own a vintage Buick, as they are known to be rather expensive to maintain........

It's a drop in the bucket compared to ownership costs.

And this is coming from a guy who has been unemployed for 5 months, has 2 kids and is STILL planning on attending the Nationals. (thankfully, it's only 9 hours away this year).

[Guest Skyking]

If you don't WANT to be a BCA and local chapter member, fine, but anyone who says they can't afford $50 a year for dues to support everything the BCA does, shouldn't own a vintage Buick, as they are known to be rather expensive to maintain........

It's a drop in the bucket compared to ownership costs.

It has nothing to do with affording the cost. In this economy, they shouldn't have raised it!!!!!!!!!!!!

[The Old Guy]

Everyone seems to think that the reason members are leaving is because they can't afford the dues increase. They all try to put this in perspective by quoting different costs.

I can really afford the increase,but I just don't feel that the money is being spent as it should be. The meets have evolved into members with a "can you top this " attitude, and without the BDE and PWD tours, have made the cars almost secondary. Driven class Buicks are given awards, but the main thrusst of the banquet is recognizing who spent the most to redo their Buick. The good thing about the "driven" class is that the awards are given on the field,

Trophies and judging ,in my opinion are the culprits, and this will be the last I will say on the sublect ( on this forum )

It will be interesting to see how Robertas suggestion is carried out. You have to remember that the main reason for the necessity of being a BCA member was to protect the chapter insurance wise. With all the new govenment regulations, and the fact that the chapters must incorporate, leaves the chapters in a position where they do NOT need the BCA umbrella coverage.

[Thriller]

Joe,

I respect what you say, so I must suggest that it is unfortunate you won't weigh in any more - the topic may take a twist to which you may very well have the best idea. Fewer than half of the cars registered for Ames are in 400 point judging. Many of the awards in the 400 point, while they may correlate with the amount spent, are not necessarily cars that have had a bunch of money spent on them. My '41 and my Wildcat both received the same award, yet I had probably 4 times the money into the Wildcat. I think those with a "can you top this" attitude would be in a small minority. Of course, I suspect that someone with such an attitude would probably tick me off too.

If I hear you correctly, you want to hang out with Buick friends in the parking lot / show field, and drive your Buick. There are others of like minds. However, there are others who enjoy other facets of the hobby and national meets and they should be allowed to participate as well.

Perhaps the answer may be to decrease the importance placed on awards at the banquet. Have the longest driven, literary, and similar awards, but change the 400 point awards to something awarded on the show field, just like the Driven Class. Photographs should either be taken of all participating Buicks, or perhaps none. That way, we won't have participants being shunned with comments like "oh, it's just a Driven class car - we don't need a picture of it" - I'm not sure that is still happening, but I know it was in 2006. The math involved with scoring a car could be dealt with by the judging team captain after the car is judged. Really, it should only be a couple minutes at best. It could also solve some of the issues with judging teams spending an hour or two in administration after the fact. The sheets could go to administration after the team is done, but it would be the recording and such that would occur, rather than triple-checking every item. Even if you want the double-checking, you could lay out the awards with owner's names on them (perhaps in an envelope) and ask them to pick it up some time after judging occurs. If you don't want to triple-check, forget about labels on the awards, and have them out on the show field being awarded as the judging teams add up the sheets on site. If you want to be more careful, implement something like a chain of custody for judging sheets for cars that are believed to score gold / senior status.

While that isn't the way it is currently done, perhaps that would take the emphasis off the 400 point judging / awards at the banquet, particularly since fewer than half the cars there are registered in that class. If someone only brings Buicks for display or Driven Class, sitting through the awards may be a disincentive to attending the banquet.

I don't pretend to have the answers. I'm just thinking off the cuff. One of the thoughts here is to try to treat all owners the same, regardless of how they have their car registered for the meet. It wasn't that long ago that the Modified and Driven classes were put into place, but some members are still looking down their noses at participants of those classes. That needs to stop. Some of the nicest cars at the meet are driven, but the owners either don't care about another award, or don't want to worry about keeping it clean / prepping it for judging, or possibly are opposed to the judging.

Man, that was another long rambling.

[Guest wildcat465]

.

[buick5563]

Pulling up a chair, eating popcorn, watching the show

+1

[BUICK RACER]

Let me pretend to be a BCA Chapter Director, oh, for once, I am one! Should a BCA Member, say age 70, been a member of the BCA for ages, doesn't need to buy another Buick, doesn't need any parts for their current Buick, likes to hang around with other Buick owners/friends that have the same interests, drive them, work on 'em if needed. Will not go to a Buick Club National, cause they have issues and can't travel! or whatever!

Why not let them be a Chapter Member without having to be a "BCA" member, if 50-60% of the Chapter belongs to the BCA, then that should be enough to call it a Chapter, so, BOD of the BCA, if I do this for Buicktown, are we going to lose our charter membership in the BCA?????????????

I think this is the most important thing, to talk about.

The older folks don't care about history, they were there when it happened, they want to have fun with their friends in/and around where they live! So think about it!What we need to figure out is the future, Riviera Supercharged, Regal Supercharged, 30+MPG. And how to get these owners to wind up BCA members!

enough, for now,R

[Reatta Man]

I'm watching all of this go on in other clubs, as well as in the Air Force.

A few years ago, a few (misguided) bean counters decided we didn't need to keep producing base newspapers. And, of course, we took a HUGE cut in personnel because we didn't need all those extra people any more......

The newspapers are now produced by independent contractors, and nearly every base commander wishes he/she had control of the paper as a conduit of messages.

And, recently, several senior AF leaders have admitted that giving up newspapers and the staff that went with them was a bad idea; still lots of other things to be done, and a much smaller pool of people to pull from to get them done.

Also, other organizations, from the Reserve Officers Association to various veterans organizations are loosing membership, and having trouble absorbing increased printing and mailing costs of their magazines.

Also of note were the reasons given by the closing and sale of the collectible items from the Roy Rogers museum in Branson, MO. Rogers' son attributed the aging population of Roy Rogers fans, loss of retirement nest eggs by many of their fans and other economic factors.

Lessons to be learned?

1. The idea that newspapers and magazines are out of date is premature. Yes, the world is moving towards electronic news and information, but many people (and yes, I'm one) want to touch, feel and read a printed newspaper. Ditto for magazines. I want to READ a Motor Trend, not go searching for an article on their Web site that was in the magazine. Also, the assumption that people will go get the info they need on the Web isn't realistic because most people are saturated with e-mails and electronic information. Result? People go get what they really want (think You Tube, Facebook, etc.) and ignore the rest (news, text-heavy pages, etc.)

2. Costs for produce and mail magazines are going up. But, when you cut content in magazines or newpapers AND raise prices, you will still loose readers. This is important to us because basically, our membership dues IS a magazine subscription. Basically WE are suffering (paying) because the post office is run on an outdated business model that hasn't been able to keep up with technology, the market and demand for better service while they are overburdened with huge labor costs.

3. The economy has hurt some people. Others are just cheap. Others sometimes want to see increased value for increased price. People are still comparing their membership from many years ago when dues were less. They don't see mailing and printing costs, so increases in dues due to what they perceive is intangible is easily translated into a BOD that isn't listening to membership. (I'm NOT making that accusation myself, but I can see it in the messages posted in here by other members.)

These are tough realities being faced by this and other BODs. If they haven't considered the following, I would strongly suggest it be considered:

1. A two-tier membership, such as a magazine membership dues cost and another dues level for members not wanting a magazine.

2. A two-tier membership, with one price for members that wish to get a printed magazine, and one price for members that get their magazine mailed to them on a CD containing PDF files that they can view on their laptop or PC. Tough to set up at first, and lots of platforms to support (PC, MAC, Windows XP, Vista, 7, etc.) but a lot cheaper to reproduce and mail.

3. Soliciting bids to subcontract the magazine out to large production houses.

4. Stepping down the paper stock to a cheaper paper.

Any of these options likely has huge downsides; for example, options 1 and 2 could end up in making the magazine even more expensive (on a per-copy basis) if, for example, 50% of the members opted for the lower cost membership. Options 3 or 4 could easily end up in extending production times, ticking off members due to a cheaper magazine without a corresponding reduction in membership dues, or possibly loosing members.

Tough times, tough choices.....

Joe

[Guest BJM]

So all I got (or got )out of the BCA was the bugle

It is a nice magazine but i would read it in 1 hour and be done

(accually my last 2 issues i never opened)

scott

I am glad to see I am not the only one. Look, it's tough because in my opinion, Pete Phillips is the new Mr. Buick and a good friend.

But the Bugle should be decontented and de-emphasized as the reason for the Buick Club. Chapters and regions need to be strengthened. Get back to turning wrenches with other like minded people.

Maybe the Internet is to blame. Now we get on the forum ,get all the meeting info we need off the website and stay in touch through this forum.

So if we need $50 to keep the current "quality" of a Bugle, a Bugle that everyone admits gets read in about 2 hours tops, then the BOD should relook at the Bugle format, by format I mean number of issues, thickness, priority of content.

Or, for those of us that ***** about price v those that say it's abargain - then raise it even further, how about $100 per year for a BCA membership. When does a bargain stop being a bargain to those who say us concerned about dues are cheapskates? $100? $150?

[Guest BJM]

I've been on the record in past posts about my disagreement with Joe T on the 400 point judging matter. A marque club should see stewardship as part of it's reason for being.

Otherwise how are we going to know what a correct {fill in the old Buick} is supposed to be 30 years from now? Maybe to Joe that's not important and to ME it's not the reason I am a member BUT it takes just a littl ebit of time each National, once a year to maintain the authenticity purpose of a marque specific club.

The BCA is all inclusive. Drivers, 400 pointers, Reattas, station wagons, etc.

[Guest Dans 77 Limited]

If you don't WANT to be a BCA and local chapter member, fine, but anyone who says they can't afford $50 a year for dues to support everything the BCA does, shouldn't own a vintage Buick, as they are known to be rather expensive to maintain........

It's a drop in the bucket compared to ownership costs.

And this is coming from a guy who has been unemployed for 5 months, has 2 kids and is STILL planning on attending the Nationals. (thankfully, it's only 9 hours away this year).

Is anybody actually reading what Im typing before they reply? Sorry man but your missing the point .....COMPLETELY. This isnt about me or you or what its costing us... were already in and not only am I already in Im trying like hell to get others in too. And thats where the problem lies ..... getting others in. Your willing to spend what your spending even though your unemployed and thats fine for you. HOWEVER if you werent already a BCA member and still unemployed for 5 months and somebody asked you to spend $50 of your last unemployment check plus whatever the cost of a chapter membership to join this club you know nothing about .... Ill bet unemployment checks to donuts you wouldnt spend the money. Thats the point Im trying to make to you and others on this board . To ultimately fix the problem we MUST recruit new members . Raising the dues like what was done has taken a job that was already tough in this economy (recruiting) and has made it that much harder. What about that is so (fill in with expletive of your choice) hard to understand ?????????????????

Dan,

So, what I gather from your reply, it's my way or the highway-I don't give damn what others think. Sorry Dan, the board members have to think of the entire club and what needed and still needs to keep it running. As it has been stated many times, this was not an easy decision and we knew that here were going to be some unhappy people. If the dues were not raised, the club would have run out of money, pure and simple. We are looking into ideas to lower costs ( many good ideas came from the forum )and hopefully there will not be another raise in quite some time.

Your idea of lowering the dues simply will not work. Face it, that is reality.

The BCA was a sinking ship, the dues raise was plugging the holes. Now we are starting the bailing process. I do not think that we are "doing something wrong".

No its not my way or the hi-way . In fact that seems to be what Im getting told, not the message Im trying to send . In fact your reply sounds more to me like " We raised the dues and if you dont like it dont let the door hit you where the good lord split you".Well I dont like the fact that you raised the dues and as a dues paying member of this club I CAN and WILL tell you that every chance I get . And if you cant handle that then maybe you should try to get out that door without getting hit> You dont OWN this club any more than I do you REPRESENT it and YOU have made a mistake .... a bad one and if you cant see that then maybe you shouldnt be on the board. HOW DARE YOU TELL ME I DONT HAVE THE RIGHT TO SPEAK MY PIECE CONCERNING A CLUB I SPEND MY HARD EARNED MONEY ON . Who died and made you the only voice to be heard in this club ? The truth of the matter is YOU not ME has made it harder to recruit for this club . YOU not me have caused long time members to say it just isnt worth it anymore. This is the 2nd time Ive more or less been told to shut up and frankly youve got a better chance of waking up tomorrow with a solid gold bar stuffed up your nose than you do of shutting me up.

Your idea of raising the dues will not work . Not without fresh blood and youre not going to get fresh blood by raisng the price of admission. Thats fact plain and simple and if you cant see that ..... God help you. As long as you keep doing bonehead moves like this, this will be a constant subject on this board until the last person leaves and shuts out the lights. And the more you raise the dues the more people are going to head out the door than in it which of course will cause another dues increase due to declining membership:rolleyes:

You dont think youre doing anything wrong ??????/ Well I guess we will see whos right . Oh and before you start bailing .... you better get a bigger bucket.

Dan

[rivgs]

Wow, You read all of that into my reply? Where did I state you could not express yourself? Where did I say you can head out the door? Where did I state I was the owner or only voice of the club?

You really need to calm down and absorb what is being written. Yes, I understand your concerns on the raise in dues, but if they were not raised, the BCA would have run out of money-then what?

You state that you will not run for the board because you don't fly and have a limited time for vacation. That fine and that is your choice. I am a mechanic for a school bus company- I am not rich or retired, I get 2 weeks ( 10 days ) vacation a year and I will not go anywhere near an airplane unless it is on display at an airshow- I drive to nationals. So, it can be done.

People have warned me that there will be some ranting and raving on the forum and to not take it personaly.

Stealthbob said it best on a prior post.

Anyone wants to talk to me, I'll be at Ames Starting Tuesday night. Or you can call me or email me-my information is printed in the Bugle.

[Thriller]

Dan - I don't want to prolong this any further, but I really think you ought to tone down the rhetoric. With implied expletives and name calling, you don't do a good job of presenting your point in the discussion.

The BCA was losing membership before the dues were raised. That was part of the problem - the BoD had budgeted for a certain membership number and we dropped below that. The BoD did not make the decision in a vacuum - there was discussion here, as well as considerable discussion at the National meet. The resounding message at the National (and after the experiment in reducing the cost of the Bugle) was "don't touch the Bugle". So, with very little wiggle room on the expense side, the revenue side needed to be addressed. Since membership was already in decline, we really can't say how much more a dues increase contributed.

I don't have the answers, nor do I pretend to, so I will not out and out tell you that you are wrong, like you seem to be shouting at the BoD. The club's financial position has improved. How much was due to the dues increase and how much was due to the donation program, I don't know (I do hope to find out next week though). Since we went from a position of being in financial trouble, getting our heads above water was important.

Unless we go back several years and look at the monthly new members in the Bugle, we really can't say. This all started with a quiet month of new members. I hear that you are trying to recruit and I understand that with it being more costly, recruiting is more difficult. If you are spewing vitriol at the BoD of the club though, how effective are you as a salesman for the club? Perhaps it was just a bad month. I know weather here this spring was really wonky, which played havoc with the beginning of the old car season, so that may have had some impact. We also don't know the rate of membership loss through death and / or non-renewals. Maybe we still had a net gain in the month reported. I don't know. Perhaps the new members page should also include a current membership count. There is bound to be some variation, so a good month or a bad month isn't necessarily cause for panic nor rejoicing. We do need to know the long term trends however.

Well, that's more than enough.

[Guest BJM]

Kevin,

That is the only bad part about an emotional post like this one. If anyone reads through my posts you will never find I take someone's opinion on. I mentioned I disagreed with Joe T's position on 400 point judging but I never said anything bad about Joe (I am only using that as an example)

That's how to keep the conversation topical without denegrating someone else's positions. I have very thick skin. I think criticism is an art form and America needs more of it to move topical conversation along. Otherwise we become too sensitive and politically correct.

I am wrong a lot, trust me. ( Or trust my wife )

I get both sides of this argument. In fact, the 19 members this month might be an anomoly. Next month we might be right back to a full, small typed page or 2.

That was my only thought - let's see if this keeps up or is a one or 2 month a year deal.

I think someone stated, ALL statistics would be nice to see. 19 in, how many dropped? 200 in, how many did not renew? That makes more sense to me then a one month spike or dive....

[pphil]

If you don't WANT to be a BCA and local chapter member, fine, but anyone who says they can't afford $50 a year for dues to support everything the BCA does, shouldn't own a vintage Buick, as they are known to be rather expensive to maintain........

It's a drop in the bucket compared to ownership costs.

And this is coming from a guy who has been unemployed for 5 months, has 2 kids and is STILL planning on attending the Nationals. (thankfully, it's only 9 hours away this year).

I never said i couldn't afford $50.00 a year, I said the BCA aint worth $50.00 a year TO ME ......MY OWN PERSONAL OPINION.......that and a buck fifty will buy you a cup of coffee .............

so i guess according to you i need to sell my cars

OK....

FOR SALE

1970 wildcat

1976 skylark

someone step up and come and get them

I am a (paid) member of the BPG and the GSCA

they dont have a monthly magazine (there's are quarterly)but there meets have racing

and right now that is what i am interested in.....

this year i am going to both there nationals but not Ames

why mainly because they are on the same weekend...

I have been to a BCA national as a spectator

and at the BPG and GSCA i do not show my car

i go to see the other cars(that are showing) and to race

and my car aint quick its a slow boat but its enjoyable

scott

Edited July 20, 2010 by pphil (see edit history)

[Guest Dans 77 Limited]

Okay here it is . I speak the way I speak ...,.take it or leave it . The signature at the bottom of my post is EXACTLY how I feel . This is me and in this particular case it is take it or leave it. Im not going to change who I am to protect somebody elses delicate sensibilites. You dont like the way I speak or type dont listen to what I have to say or dont read what I type. Thats your choice to make and I wont deny it to you ...... dont deny me my choice to speak the way I feel either. Im not angry or ranting Im just stating plain fact.

After reviewing my posts in this thread the only name calling I can see that I have done is I called one person "Man" and I called Joe Taubitz .................Joe Taubitz. I apologize for calling someone their given name .... what could I have been possibly thinking ?

I said and I quote "as long as your doing bonehead moves like that" I didnt call you or anyone else a bonehead . I said what you were doing was a bonehead move and to put it quite frankly .... I STILL THINK IT IS

The tally of renewed membership new membership and unrenewed membership was my idea ........ the very first post in this thread . The reason I suggested it was that I do feel Im right about the dues increase ... I see the damage it has done with my own eyes ...... I am a recruiter anybody in my chapter will tell you that. Now you can say Im wrong you can say wait lets see you can say its worth it to you , however, everything your saying is flying directly into the face of what Im witnessing. Now ask yourself this, should I believe what your telling me or should I believe what I see happening right in plain sight in front of my own face ? Put yourself in my position and ask yourself which you would believe?

I dont need to see anymore . I know the answer already , but maybe if this tally was in the bugle every month a few of you would get your eyes opened to the suicidal course this club is currently on. We MUST recruit I do believe Ive said that before (somewhere in between spouting profanities and insulting people by calling them by their given name) without recruitment the current financial problems are not going to end . Does anybody here really believe the Bugle is going to get CHEAPER to publish in its current form in the future? Does anybody believe that as membership declines their dues are going to go down ? Does anybody believe that with less membership this club is going to get cheaper to run ? Does anybody believe that when the dues inevitably get raised again due to rising costs and declining membership that more current members wont leave and that the new members page wont get smaller ? Does anybody really think we are going to increase membership (which is the only solution to the financial woes) by raising the price ??? Does anybody really believe this ridiculous load of (fill in the blank).

Oh and thats another thing since Im on the subject ....... the implied profanity. I cant remember just who exactly scolded me for that. But let me point out something you may have missed. YOU filled in that blank not me . You could have just as easily thought darn or drat or tarter sauce or boohoo or any one of a million other replys . You chose whatever word you thought I meant. That came out of your brain .... not mine. I knew what I wanted to say but I couldnt so I left it blank on purpose. Like I said earlier Im comfortable in my skin I know what I was thinking and Im sure a few of you did too HOWEVER you filled in exactly what you thought that blank meant and then when you found out you didnt like it .... you complained to me !!!!!!! NOT MY PROBLEM !

Sorry if you dont like me ...... but then again I dont recall asking you if you did .

Dan

Edited July 22, 2010 by Dans 77 Limited (see edit history)

[Guest BJM]

Hey sort of back on topic. If I could, I would be a member in ALL marque clubs, well a lot of clubs incl AACA. Anyway, I am looking to buy a bathtub Nash and went to their website. Here is a cut and paste regarding their dues, fees, and current membership joining requirements:

Members receive a ROSTER, listing all members and their cars. The Club publication

THE NASH TIMES is bi-monthly. The MARKETPLACE, a buy sell newsletter is mailed the other month.

Annual Club dues are; $15 For ELECTRONIC (only) Membership.

These Members will access all printed publications on-line, with Nothing received by mail.

For Standard Membership; $30 in United States, $33 for Canadian, and $48 for International air mail.

All publications will be mailed, and all members will also have access to all on-line material, as well as access

to the On-Line Nash Garage, and Members-On-Line if they have Internet access and an EMail address.

All Canadian and International funds must be INTERNATIONAL MONEY orders in US Dollars.

Certainly the Nash club is much smaller and not getting any younger - then Buicks club. No position here, just found it interesting.

I think Nash, Hudson, etc they all just do the best they can. They are probably in retraction as far as membership and will be for some time.

Edited July 22, 2010 by BJM (see edit history)

[BUICK RACER]

I was going to go silent just like my Best Friend, The Old Guy, but you know you have to take what you want from any organization you belong to, fortunately you still can, it's NOT like work where you have to do what you have to do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I understand most of the issues, I can't fix them, Hell NO! But I try!!

But some people like to spend their money on great awesome vehicles and some like to just enjoy them for what they are, some say our cars are just appliances, but there is history, heritage and major enjoyment in driving a REAL Buick, or maybe racing a Buick, or just showing it off, but everyone has their favorite drink, car, entertainment, whatever, we should all just get along, life is too short for the petty crap.

Do WHAT you want to do with your Buicks, and enjoy them with your friends and family is absolutely the best!!! I so don't know what else to say, it's your life, your Buick, love it, or sell it, and quit whining.

To quote an ex "Your Car(BUICK) is your trophy" So why do you want more dust collectors!!!!!!!!!!!! Cause you can if you want, or don't if you don't, is the frustration worth it, yeah, it is, if you want it to be!!!

End of story, I may close the thread, in the next day or so!!